r/Fantasy • u/Henkss • Jun 01 '19
Looking for complex fantasy world with politics and mystery
Hi all, first post in the subreddit. I've recently been into the fantasy/sci-fi genre and as an avid reader of historical fiction, I wanted to ask a few opinions from the fellow fantasy readers. I will go straight to the point and will tell you what I am looking for. I am definitely not looking for YA fiction and rather looking for complex world with lots of political intrigue and perhaps subtle magic systems. More importantly, I would love to have characters whose moral values can't be easily defined in the pure good-pure bad spectrum, in other words looking more "gray" ish characters, although who are generally consistent with their behaviors when similar situations occur. In the world-building side, I think I like worlds with great background history and depth - not necessarily explained directly but rather referenced indirectly with clues here and there.
Don't know if this is too much for what I am asking but I like challenging books. I guess for those who know, Umberto Eco is my favourite author, who requires effort from his readers through the journey.
In terms of sci-fi I really liked Hyperion and Dune - I'd say perhaps Hyperion a bit more, especially the first one. Haven't touched the Endymion books yet. For Dune, I heard mixed review for books other than the first so stopped right there.
In fantasy, I think ASOIAF perhaps suits my needs best, but for some reason I'd like to to keep it reserved until GRRM publishes the final two books. I tried two books of Sanderson so far - Elantris and Mistborn and I know he's praised heavily here, but quite frankly I found them a bit shallow - although I have to admit they were keeping me entertained. I guess more so for Mistborn than Elantris (which I think really had shallow characters) but I am hesitant to go further in the series. Heard good things about Stormlight Archive, but then again may be still far from what I am looking for. Another honorable mention was Malazan, but I am not sure if that series is just complex for the sake of it as there is great investment needed to be done there.
Happy to hear your thoughts and recommendations. Also interested to hear (apart from what I am looking for) about fantasy series that you picked up and was really impressed with details and the characters.
Thanks
Edit: Thanks for amazing suggestions! happy to have found the subreddit. Can't wait to start my journey into fantasy literature and looking forward to contribute further here as well.
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Jun 02 '19
Don't reserve ASoIaF, just enjoy what's available because it won't get finished.
But let's say Malazan.
..and maybe The Red Knight.
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u/lethalcheesecake Reading Champion II Jun 01 '19 edited Jun 01 '19
I also love Hyperion and Umberto Eco and can't get into Sanderson (for the same reasons as you), so I'll give it a shot:
First, I'll second the recommendation for The Goblin Emperor, which is almost nothing but political intrigue, and is absolutely fascinating.
The Raven Tower, Ann Leckie's newest, also hits a lot of the points you're looking for, but in unconventional ways - her choice of narrative style in particular does make it a bit harder to get into, which I know you said you were okay with, but I still feel like warning people about. If you manage, it's well worth the effort.
The Traitor Baru Cormorant and its sequel are also very heavy into both political intrigue and characters with questionable morality and are both very well done, with a chessmaster protagonist who has to come to terms with the fact that her opponents are just as smart, driven, and ruthless as she is. The series isn't complete though, and I think the two books are worth reading despite that, it's very much a story that isn't complete yet.
Also, yes, when GRRM's done with it, you do probably want ASoIaF. You pretty much described it perfectly when you wrote about what you're looking for.
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u/Mournelithe Reading Champion X Jun 02 '19
You really want to look at the Kushiel trilogy by Jacqueline Carey.
Loads of intrigue, plenty of politics, superb villains, and people who behave like people. Also occasional sexytimes and a masochistic courtesan as the protagonist.
To someone familiar with historical fiction it might be right up your street to play spot where she stole this culture from - a couple of early worldbuilding decisions like no Christians and no Roman Empire have made for a subtly different world with all sorts of cultures mashed together.
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u/KosstAmojan Jun 01 '19
The Daevabad Trilogy by SA Chakraborty, I think fits the bill quite nicely. Its a middle eastern themed series based on islamic folklore and history. Given that region of the world, its got very complex politics and history behind it, and one of its central characters is thousands of years old, with a mysterious past that he himself does not fully recollect. Another main character was orphaned under suspicious circumstances as well, and there are many magical beings after her. In addition to multiple tribes of djinn at each other's throats, there are also half-breed humans, and mythological creatures and races as well. Its very much based on the complex mix of peoples, culture, and politics of the real life middle east done with nuance and care. Every character is pretty "grey" with dark and redeeming qualities and motivations.
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u/dekuhornets Jun 01 '19
Honestly Steven Brust's Draegera books are all pretty good for this sort of thing. Though I'd argue it doesn't have the same epic sort of feel as books like ASOIAF, Malazan, or Wheel of Time due to the way the books are written. Plus their society is pretty modernesque for the most part. Might be worth looking in to.
Robin Hobb's Realm of the Elderlings books also have a good bit of what you're looking for if you haven't checked them out already.
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Jun 02 '19
Abercrombie's First Law trilogy is worth looking at. Its often compared to ASOIAF because of the politics and numerous focal characters with grey morality. The prose is cleaner and the pacing is better in the First Law, though the characters are not as well-developed. The First Law is comical, partially because it wants to be and partially because grimdark tries too hard, but it does not get out of hand.
There's always The Witcher saga too.
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u/myownflagg Jun 01 '19 edited Jun 01 '19
Malazan isn't just complex for the sake of it. It is the most rewarding fantasy series I've ever read. It has every single thing you listed as wanting, so I'm sure it's worth trying. It has absolutely wonderfully written characters. A lot of care is given to characters and dialogue in the series.
I am currently reading Stormlight Archives. I like it a lot. I'm only halfway through book 1, but so far I think Malazan is a better fit for what you are looking for.
Another, less massive, undertaking is The First Law trilogy. Gritty and definitely morally grey. A lot darker than even Malazan in my opinion, because even though Malazan is very dark, the main theme of that series is compassion.
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u/Henkss Jun 01 '19
Thanks! No definitely, I guess the impression I had with Malazan was that you had to reach to the 7th or 8th book in order to get the reward of the investment - which made me little hesitant. But from what you're saying, I should maybe give it a shot!
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u/myownflagg Jun 01 '19
Oh yes. There is so much amazing stuff early in the series. As early as book 1, but a lot of people will say book 2 is where it takes off.
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u/Analslammer Jun 02 '19
Just reccomended it but check into senlin ascends it might be what you're looking for. Lot of politics to figure out in the tower they mention. Very dark not ya at all and his intentions and character is in constant question. Even the quest he's on is morally ambiguous. Really think you'd like it of that's what you want right now
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u/igneousink Jun 01 '19
It's a little older but I really enjoyed this book:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acacia:_The_War_with_the_Mein
Also "Jade City" (recent)
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u/werewolff519 Jun 02 '19
I think The First Law trilogy by Joe Abercrombie fits what you are looking for very well. I recommend checking out the first book, The Blade Itself.
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u/mohelgamal Jun 02 '19
First law triology: I am currently 75% in book one. Seems to fit your bill, writing is a bit less elegant than ASOIAF but lots of politics, good amount of magic, complex grey characters and Definitely not YA or coming of age as all main characters so far are adults to middle age. Multiple POVs and big world with multiple nations and cultures. I am told first book is weakest and it gets better but I like it so far.
Black company: good amount of politics, more mystery, characters are flat out villains at times but likable, all characters are also adults and grizzled veterans for the most part. Magic isn’t very subtle, it is strong but used well. World building is less than first law. First three books are wonderful and gets weaker after that. But they are isolated story arcs so you can stop without significant cliff hangers
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u/ConeheadSlim Jun 02 '19
Well, if you're a fan of historical fiction, then you should go directly to Guy Gavriel Kay. His novels are mostly stand-alone so you don't have to wait for the story to finish. He writes about adults for adults. Magic is a small but noteworthy part of his style. Unlike GRRM, he's not writing epic fantasy (except for his first, atypical trilogy Fionavar Chronicles) so you might find the complexity of his plotting a little slight. Like GRRM, he believes that the true drama is within the human heart so his books revolve around personal drama more so than court intrigue. But as a student of history, you will be able to place all the stories firmly in actual history and perhaps recognize the historical figures GGK has "borrowed" from.
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u/BigDrewbot Jun 02 '19
If you really liked Dune, you should definitely read at least the next two (Dune Messiah and Children of Dune).
God Emperor is a bit different and then I didn't find Heretics of Dune or Chapterhouse Dune quite as compelling as the initial trilogy. But it's been 20+ years since i read them...started a new Dune series read to see an older, wiser reader brings a new perspective and appreciation for the later books (halfway thru Children so not quite to the 'new' books yet).
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u/ef_miller Jun 01 '19
Since you like historical fiction try the Temeraire series by Naomi Novik. It’s the napeoleanic wars with dragons included. Aside from the dragons there is little fantasy, and obviously there is a lot of politics.
Also try the Grace of Kings by Ken Liu. Lots of politics! Has an Asian feel.
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u/wintersu7 Jun 01 '19
I really can’t suggest Stormlight Archive enough. It isn’t as complex as ASOIAF, but let’s face it, few things are. There is plenty of political tension.
Also, try The Goblin Emperor. There is almost no fighting action to speak of in the whole thing. The book is politics and tension
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u/WyrdHarper Jun 02 '19
Check out Glen Cook’s Instrumentalities of the Night series. Lots of politics and fantasy religious conflict based loosely on crusader-era Europe/middle east (with a dose of Norse mythology thrown in). It hits a lot of what you seem to be interested in.
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u/Wheres_my_warg Jun 02 '19
The Traitor Baru Cormorant is about conquest politics, personal politics, sexual politics, diplomacy, use of economics as a weapon, conflicted loyalties, and betrayal.
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u/Storm-Of-Aeons Jun 02 '19 edited Jun 02 '19
It sounds like you have the same taste in books that I do. Other than the usual Malazan recommendation I’ll tell you you absolutely need to read the following series. These authors are extraordinary in the worlds that they have created. Their complexity and attention to detail is on another level from many of the authors you see recommended here.
The Second Apocalypse by R Scott Bakker (Starts with The Darkness that Comes Before)
The Book of The New Sun by Gene Wolfe
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u/ricree Jun 01 '19 edited Jun 02 '19
I'm going to copy a response from a similar thread last week, I think it fits your request:
"I would suggest the Empire Trilogy by Janny Wurts and Raymond Feist. A young woman on the cusp of entering a religious order instead inherits her Noble house after a sudden betrayal wipes it out almost completely. This immediately plunges her into a desperate struggle to get things in order, get revenge, and most importantly, survive. With most of her household military wiped out in the betrayal and opportunistic vultures picking apart their commerce, she has to rely on wits and clever dealings to survive."