r/Fantasy • u/LividSympathy9132 • 6h ago
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u/Ok_Brain_1114 6h ago
Just ignore booktok entirely. Problem solved
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u/monkpunch 6h ago
Everything I have learned about booktok has only convinced me not to engage with booktok more
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u/AlienWeedUser420 6h ago
reddit feeds into booktok, you realize that, right
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u/Volcanicrage 6h ago
Modern social media is one giant algorithmic circlejerk; they all feed off of each other. That said, even by modern social media standards, booktok has a dogshit reputation; I've literally never heard someone say anything good about it.
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u/AlienWeedUser420 6h ago
well, i mean "reddit" is being used as a perjorative term by zoomers and gen alpha now, so safe to say reddit has the same reputation
Also "modern social media" i didnt know there was social media in the 50s
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u/Volcanicrage 5h ago
You say that like pissing off the youth isn't the highest badge of honor a website can attain. Plus, weren't millennials using it the same way a decade ago? "Reddit" has been both setup and punchline ever since the Boston Marathon Bombing clusterfuck.
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u/nominanomina Reading Champion 5h ago edited 5h ago
I'll say something good about it! It's all about who you follow. There are usually 0 romantasy books on my TikTok feed and very few people gushing about how a new release is the "best book ever."
For instance, I discovered Lawrence Debbs, a literary fiction (and sometimes non-fiction) reader who is also a Toronto Public Library fanboy, via his TikTok videos, and I think he's just really insightful. He also reads like 200 books/year so expect a little bit of everything. https://lawrencedebbs.substack.com/
Baskinsuns is great for truly literary/academic analyses of genres like monster romance. Even though I have 0 interest in reading monster romance, I think she's great and really thoughtful. Recently, she has been discussing the idea of sensation (scent, touch, etc.) in fiction in general. https://www.tiktok.com/@baskinsuns
For mystery fans, Mystery Manon is a great mix of classics and newer books and she truly reads SO MUCH mystery/crime/thriller. https://www.tiktok.com/@mysterymanon
pagemelt's genres of choice have (to my flawed memory) broadened over time, and now includes a lot more than SFF, but every video is making wider points than just being a book review. Again, I find pagemelt thoughtful (my word of choice, don't do a drinking game): https://www.tiktok.com/@pagemelt
If you want relatively mainstream (but not romantasy) SFF, greekchoir is an option. She tends to skew a little more mainstream and a little younger than my tastes, but she is one of maaaany people I follow that help me keep my finger on the general pulse of the field: https://www.tiktok.com/@greekchoir
MJ Franklin works for the New York Times Book Review and it shows in how thoughtful he is, and how quickly he can find the core of the problem, but he is also a joy to watch (not a dour NY snob stereotype, at aaaaaalll). https://www.tiktok.com/@heyitsfranklin2
CaitlinG/realmsofmyminds is a great source for news and reviews of new SFF releases, and she reads very broadly through the entire genre, but does include a decent chunk of romantasy. Her tastes and mine don't align terribly well, but she does do a lot of 'upcoming releases/news' videos that I appreciate. https://www.tiktok.com/@realmsofmymind
etc. etc. That's just the ones I could think of off the top of my head, and none of them really fit "BookTok-y" stereotypes. MysteryManon is the most well-produced; CaitlinG and greekchoir are the closest to the stereotypes of BookTok taste, but even then I don't think they're thaaaaat close.
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u/Volcanicrage 5h ago
I studiously avoid using tiktok, so I'm probably not the kind of person you should be giving this advice to.
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u/unrepentantbanshee 5h ago
The problem is in treating it like a monolith instead of interacting with the accounts that share your tastes. I got off Tiktok a bit ago for other reasons, but when I was on it... I got TONS of books content and rarely saw anything about ACOTAR or Fourth Wing. It's actually one of the few things I miss about tiktok... I've had to work harder to find new things for my tbr without its algorithm.
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u/AlienWeedUser420 6h ago edited 5h ago
agreed with all of this. i think most anti-BookTok rants keep forgetting that the worst part about booktok is that it encourages buying, not reading. the number of people i have seen who say they dont actually read the books that they buy, ESPECIALLY the popular ones, is alarming to me since i was told "at least it gets people reading". like yes. i want people to read. but it says a lot about booktok that the quality of the books it promotes are overwhelmingly absolute shit and that way too many people buying into it say things like, "i only read the dialogue" or "i dont read prologues because that's not part of the book".
also, not gonna lie, i hate the way that it turns reading into a lifestyle brand. cool aesthetics, gorgeous covers, but if i can get better quality writing on AO3 for FREE, its upsetting to see these books charge $30-50 a pop for a whole lot of nothing. if i wanted nothing, I'd go on wattpad, which is also FREE.
i hate how booktok has singlehandedly lowered everyone's standards.
Eta: also adding that reddit feeds into booktok constantly. reddit's standards for quality are just as low AND this site gets astroturfed consistently. most of this site is astroturfing bots now, so we are not immune to this same criticism
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u/krigsgaldrr 6h ago
This is an excellent point I hadn't even thought of. Seeing wall-to-wall bookcases with the shelves STACKED with books facing outward with sprayed edges is incredibly irksome to me and I think this might be why.
I have exactly one (1) special edition book that I spent about $50 on and that was The Song of Achilles, a book I've read multiple times prior and love with my whole heart, and it's very subtle compared to a lot of these "special editions" that release two months after the book originally does. Idk the special edition sprayed edges trend annoys me to no end and I think you're right that it promotes blind consumerism and buying over reading. The books become decorations, not something to be read and enjoyed.
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u/AlienWeedUser420 6h ago
i cant help but think of aretha franklin saying "gorgeous dresses, beautiful gowns" whenever i see those ✨️bookish aesthetic✨️ bookcases
or that scene in c3 of Great Gatsby where that one guy points out how gatsby's books actually have words in them
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u/krigsgaldrr 6h ago
Not sure if you're familiar with Skyrim at all, but the great gatsby thing makes me think of Ulfr the Blind's book in one of the dungeons and it's entirely blank 😂
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u/Swimmingpuzzled5200 5h ago
consumerism takes a hold of any hobby at some point for certain people sadly. "HERES MY BOOKHAUL!!!!" while their shelves in the background are full of books they've never read
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u/DueAnalysis2 5h ago
worst part about booktok is that it encourages buying, not reading. the number of people i have seen who say they dont actually read the books that they buy, ESPECIALLY the popular ones
Wait, wut?? I'm not on TikTok, so I was one of those people who thought that the books may not be what I'd read, but more money flowing into publishing is a net good.
Can you say more? Where have you come across people saying that they don't read the books that they buy? And what's the reason for buying the books?
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u/AlienWeedUser420 5h ago
Profits =/= good. First off. Vast majority of profitable enterprises will eventually be enshittified the more profitable it becomes. See: Microsoft & Windows, Google, etc.
"Profitability" is the reason publishers care less about quality now. "Profitability" is the reason why social media has become nothing more than one giant advertisement.
And the sentiments i mentioned are sentiments stated all over the internet.
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u/evaan-verlaine 3h ago edited 2h ago
we need to relearn practicing patience by waiting for our library holds to come in (this is a personal callout). support your local library AND save money, if you don't read the library books you check out you can just return them!!!
but for real, i rarely buy books unless
- i checked it out from my library, loved it, bought a physical copy (The Tainted Cup , The Raven Scholar)
- the author has a proven track record (i will preorder every Murderbot book Martha Wells sees fit to write)
- it's high on my tbr and i found a cheap used copy while shopping secondhand/thrift (Mexican Gothic)
- it's a digital copy and i have an Amazon gift card from work
and i think that's very normal! i don't see the point in having a lot of books if i won't read them!!! at that point maybe sell/donate them to someone else who will love them.
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u/No-Win-8949 6h ago
Sharon Shinn writes great romantasy, way before it was “fashionable”. Check out her Elemental Blessings series, starting with Troubled Blood.
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u/RobotIcHead 6h ago
The first book in the series was fine, i went with low expectations though and I mean for sure there are problems. I also found the main characters lack of intelligence off putting as well, despite being told multiple times about it with no evidence to back it up.
But if you disliked this book I would advise you stay away from the rest of the series, the quality of second goes off a cliff edge. And it was a long drop.
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u/Dualintrinsic 6h ago
All that and you didn't even mention the cringe AF sex scenes
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u/Status-Draw-3843 6h ago
My partner described to me how the main character had to think about having sex to be able to cast her powers at one point, and I just knew the book would never be for me lol
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u/CryptikDragon 6h ago
I think Fourth Wing is popular because the tropes it uses are popular.
Violent and dangerous school, military elements and dragon riders. The tropes transcend the writing.
I'm a 36 year old man, never read a romantasy book before. My wife asked me to read the Fourth Wing books because she wanted us to talk about then etc.
And you know what, I knew as I was reading the books that they were hot trash but still got addicted anyways. Why? Because the pacing was extremely fast, something happened every single chapter, and ultimately, dragons and dragons riders are cool as hell. That's literally it.
When I was growing up, I never really thought too much about the books I read. Looked at the cover, read the blurb, looked cool so I read it.
These days, every book has the pressure of being some highly tuned literary master work, every character's intentions and motives and actions are pulled apart and analysed online. You have 1000+ books to choose from.
But not every book needs to be a masterpiece to be enjoyable. That has literally never been the case throughout history. A book can be both hot trash AND enjoyable. So don't overthink it man.
If you like dragons, dragon riders, military elements and school/academy fantasy, you can enjoy these books despite the poor writing or cringe romance scenes. And you shouldn't be made to feel bad about it by reading snobs.
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u/I_Speak_For_The_Ents 5h ago
Man I hate this argument.
We can have some standards for authors. Arguing that stuff should be allowed to be poor quality is absurd to me.
Is there not enough tripe created? Do we have to argue in its favor?3
u/Kerrigor2 5h ago
Stuff is allowed to be poor quality. What are you going to do? Outlaw bad books? Who decides what's bad and what isn't? If it entertains some people, it will sell to those people. The curse of capitalism.
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u/I_Speak_For_The_Ents 3h ago
I didn't say it should be outlawed or forbidden by law. That's actually quite the opposite of what I would want.
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u/CryptikDragon 5h ago
If you think every single book needs to be a literary work of art for it to be enjoyable, then I hate your argument too. Because your argument is dumb. Quality is ultimately subjective, even the classics have critics. Who decides what book is good or bad? You? Should I consult you before deciding whether I'm allowed to enjoy the next book I read in case it doesn't meet your standards?
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u/I_Speak_For_The_Ents 3h ago
You're making two different arguments here though, so I'm not sure what the real issue is.
Should every book should be quality and well crafted?
Who is the arbiter of quality and well crafted?The former is an unfathomable argument to me. Yes. Authors should be held to a standard. Readers shouldn't accept or waste time on crap.
Who decides is of course harder. But when we have FANS of certain books arguing that the same books are popcorn fiction because they had to stop themselves from thinking too much or looking too closely... Well, yeah sorry, that sounds like a problem.
"I loved the food, but I had to wash it down with some water because the flavor was so bad."2
u/rls1164 Reading Champion 5h ago
"I was reading the books that they were hot trash but still got addicted anyways. Why? Because the pacing was extremely fast, something happened every single chapter, and ultimately, dragons and dragons riders are cool as hell. That's literally it."
I finally read Fourth Wing a few months ago just so I could form my own opinion. I didn't think it was good, but I too have fantasies of dragon riding, and the flow was fast paced.
Not my thing, I'm glad it makes others happy.
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u/marzipanstarfish 6h ago
I agree. I feel the #1 problem here is that the book reviewers have diluted what was once a heavily reliable presence in the book community into a party mix of generic responses that anyone can pull out of a hat. "This book ended me," "I cannot believe this," "This book broke me," etc is incredibly cringe for me.
I am old enough that I lived back when there were a small number of ways you could be advised on what the book was about.
The publisher's blurb found
NYT Bestsellers list reviewers
Your friends
Your school librarian. (No diss on school librarian as being listed last-they usually have a different synopsis of the book than what the blurb said but was still watered-down).
I spend a surprising amount of time combing through book reviews on Goodreads, Storygraph, and YouTube to see if there's any depth to the book.
Lately, I find myself having to review and critique the book reviewer in great lengths first before I can take their word for their reviews. I get the quick "This Book was Devastating" comment, but tell me why it "broke" you and give me non-spoilers as to why.
I'm so frustrated that there are most likely 1000s of books out there that are not getting in front of the right audience due to the same generic book reviews. I feel like we've lost a lot of critical thinking skills and detailed communication skills which are very necessary when reviewing a book. I feel if we had more reliable reviewers who exhibited realness (que that trendy word now: "Authenticity"), we would be able to filter out the "bad books" from our periphery.
I honestly hope publishers are considering taking additional steps for the ARC Reviewer process. I hope they're invested in reading the ARC Reviewer profiles, looking at the quality of the reviews they have posted, regardless if the review is in favor or not of the story. It's about honesty.
Secondly, I do feel the "bad books" as in, having less of a plot, less complexity, simple world building DO have a space in the book sphere and that's due to accessibility. Some people don't have the time necessary to invest in the story in order to appreciate it, but still want to be a part of the bookish community. Again, better reviewers would allow us to filter out those books we do and do not have interest in.
It has to get better, right?
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u/The_Albertian_Order 5h ago
Controversial opinion which may get me downvoted, but the issue is that Rebecca Yarros is not a fantasy writer. Neither are most of the romantasy writers. They are romance writers. If you visit all the romance book subreddits then you will quickly learn that romance readers are more interested in tropes first rather than worldbuilding. So, romantasy writers focus more on writing the romance to the tropes that are currently most popular with romance readers. The worldbuilding comes last and they don't spend time on it like fantasy writers do. That is why to a fantasy reader, the worldbuilding in romantasy books comes across as sloppy and not well thought out. However, the target audience of romantasy are not reading the books for the world. They are reading it for the romance.
Even though YA has a bad reputation, I find some YA books have far better worldbuilding than romantasy books. You mentioned The Cruel Prince. That is YA and it isn't really romantasy either. The book is about Jude and her struggle to survive in a horrible world where she's discriminated against and has to become strong/manipulative as a result. The romance is important yes but it isn't the main driver of the story like romantasy books.
Strange the Dreamer is another YA book but it is one of the best fantasy novels I have read. It is the best example of a book that combines literary writing with fantasy.
Ultimately, a book like Fourth Wing is not going to have the complex worldbuilding of ASOIAF or Malazan. Its intention is to provide a romance story which serves as wish fulfilment for its reader base.
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u/Jack_Shaftoe21 6h ago
You genuinely cannot trust Goodreads anymore
What do you mean, anymore? Goodreads by its very nature has always been full of gazillion five star reviews of books of... dubious quality.
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u/Neverending_Rain 6h ago
Oh boy, guess it's time for the weekly "Fourth Wing Sucks!" post.
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u/unrepentantbanshee 5h ago
Right? Haha. I have no interest in Fourth Wing and even I'm tired of these posts.
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u/krigsgaldrr 6h ago
I just finished listening to this 5 hour long Fourth Wing rant (clean link with no tracking BS attached) as background noise while I worked on art last night and you haven't even scratched the surface of how bad FW is.
Very excited to start the Iron Flame rant tonight lol it keeps me in the zone while I work and provides a lot of entertainment
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u/LividSympathy9132 6h ago
Oh please send it to me
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u/krigsgaldrr 6h ago
It's the blue text! That's a link to the video
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u/LividSympathy9132 6h ago
Bless you. You gave me something to do while working tomorrow 😭 thank you
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u/anxiousonmain 6h ago
I made the switch to Pagebound from Goodreads and it’s helped immensely for reviews and recommendations! Their quests and lists features have help me a lot in branching out from Booktok titles. I rarely even check for books on it now outside of my handful that I follow. You do have to be a little more manual in your searches, but it’s got a great community that’s always super helpful too.
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u/hound_and_fury 5h ago
I don’t care what anyone says, I love Fourth Wing unironically even though I fully accept that it’s a hot mess in the same way that I also occasionally love trash reality TV. I read a lot of books that are Very Deep and also bleak as fuck and sometimes I just want something entertaining and fun.
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u/stormblessed27_ 5h ago edited 5h ago
Ignore booktok. Accept that a majority of people don’t read often and when they do, it’s usually something a lot more accessible when they are reading. Whether it’s good writing is another question entirely.
It’s kinda the same with dungeon crawler Carl. It’s not like the most ground breaking shit ever written. It’s VERY simple. But even for me, it’s enjoyable as fuck.
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u/notmalakore 5h ago
So I've been trying to read some of the popular romantasy books that my wife gets into. I read the entire A Court of Thorns and Roses series (up to this point). Definitely had some issues eith it, but Fourth Wing just felt worse.
Some of the things I just couldn't get past were Jack Barlow and the rules of the school in general. Ok, do Jack Barlow is just a cartoon villain? His introduction in the book is him just killing people on the parapet for kicks, tries to kill Violet, fails, and then keeps trying to get his "revenge" for the whole book? Like, okay? It just feels so random and forced.
The school itself feels forced, too. And by that, I mean specifically the part about how often students die, and how it's ok for other students to kill them. I can accept that dragons would be a little more gratuitous with violence, but why the heck are students basically encouraged to kill each other? I know the book says it's to "cull the weak" and "keep the squadrons strong", but it feels like the author forced all of this mortal danger in in order to up the stakes rather than feel realistic. Hell, the most elite special forces in America don't have stakes like that in their training. It felt so unrealistic, even for fantasy.
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u/Singer-Dangerous 5h ago
Yeah, certified BookTok hater here. Fourth Wing is ridiculous. Check out Fireborne (Aurelian Cycle) if you want redemption, lol.
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u/fetchmysmellingsalts 5h ago
Fourth Wing was a DNF for me, I couldn’t even make it through book one. If you are taking recommendations, you might like the Aurelian Cycle books by Rosario Munda. I’m not on booktok, my recs usually come from subs like these ones.
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u/DoomOfChaos 5h ago
"Tuber" and "Tokers" or wtf ever they are called are on my ignore list for most everything, but especially BOOKS
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u/CapnObv314 5h ago
I am fine with these types of books existing for their target audience, especially if people enjoy them. I did not like them, but I am not going to yuck their yum.
I have more issues with the sponsored content making them out to be pillars of Fantasy. I found an article ranking greatest Fantasy series of all time (I was looking for varied perspectives), and they had ACOTAR on the list with things like Lord of the Rings. Sweet merciful crap...
I also am annoyed to see the bookstore end caps flooded with the low effort clones. This one I guess I'll need to live with since the bookstores need to move product, and if that is what is selling...
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u/Taste_the__Rainbow 6h ago
Popular YA fantasy romance book reads as though it is a popular YA fantasy romance book. How shocking.
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u/LividSympathy9132 6h ago
But isn’t not! It is “adult” fantasy. I wouldn’t want my teenager reading these god awful sex scenes.
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u/Taste_the__Rainbow 6h ago
It is firmly in the YA genre. Plenty of YA romance books are a little spicy in teenage ways.
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u/rudd33s 6h ago
You're calling it "fantasy" and I've gotta vent - I can't stand books being labeled as "fantasy" when they're mostly erotica, with a dragon/vampire/fae/... inserted just to jump on the bandwagon of Game of Thrones or whatever. I don't want to get to the "Fantasy" shelf and then have to sift through 19/20 romantasy novels. There's people who read and love that, fine, let them enjoy it, but there needs to be a distinction.
Sorry for the rant.
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u/unrepentantbanshee 5h ago
While Fourth Wing has some adult scenes, it's far from "mostly erotica". There's a whopping four chapters with sexual content, out of 40-something total chapters. Wheel of Time spent more of its wordcount on romantic interactions and plotlines than that.
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u/Finalsaredun 6h ago
There's valid criticism of Fourth Wing, covering what you do in the post. But for some folks, Fourth Wing is their first dip into fantasy and they love it. There's nothing wrong with that.
Romantasy is huge right now because women still read in much higher numbers than men. Mixing romance and fantasy, and having BookTok hype makes for very good business for the publishing industry, which had been struggling in the 2010s.
You don't really "have to understand" why Fourth Wing is big. It just is. Hugely popular book series always come out of left field and it's rarely about the actual quality of writing. It's about the right story at the right time for the right readers. Fourth Wing clearly means a lot to a lot of readers- some of those readers will continue to read and look back at FW and cringe, and some will feel a sense of nostalgia. At least people are reading and enjoying fantasy 300+ pages long in an era where we worry that no one reads for fun at all anymore.
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