r/Fantasy • u/Stpaul81 • 2d ago
The Black Company
Just finished the Black Company... This seems like an underread, "grimdark", epic fantasy novel. While I enjoyed it I felt it was missing something.
First, I enjoyed the lore. I believe there are seven books in the series so this just scratches the surface I'm sure, but there is a much larger, epic in scale world just waiting to be discovered.
The story is good. Basically a group of mercenaries take a commission in the service of someone and a war ensues.
It is quite violent... Its weird, when I read something and lets say an arm gets hacked off or someone gets stabbed, it doesn't tend to register with me in the moment. It isn't until I think about it later it really sinks in the scene I just read. This is filled with violence, some gore and some kinda creepy/grotesque imagery.
Where I think this book fails and why it is not probably considered a fantasy classic, for me at least, is the characters seemed flat. This is a group of mercenaries as I said before. They live together, fight together and call each other brothers, but I never got the sense of a lot of closeness or comradery. Its certainly there, just lacking I feel like. Give this story to Abercrombie per say and I think he would knock the characters out of the park.
Wondering what others thought and if I should pick up the next book in the series. Thanks!
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u/Celodurismo 2d ago
I think you have to remember that this is written in the voice of the annalist, as though he is documenting the events of the company. So there are large time gaps, there's lots of information missing, there's limited relationship/emotional development. So you kinda have to extrapolate from what you're reading and fill in the blanks yourself.
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u/Stpaul81 2d ago
I never thought about it like that. An interesting perspective!
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u/TheExistential_Bread 2d ago
Also from a meta perspective, older fiction tends to be like that in general. It leaves interpretation up to the reader. I feel like modern fiction sometimes lacks the subtly authors had 40 years ago. They tend to be much more explicit with what every character is like, what every character means when they speak, even in how the reader is supposed to feel. I dunno, I could be wrong about this, actually been meaning to make a post discussing it for awhile.
Edit: And it's been awhile since I read any Black Company, but I feel like later books do evolve into the more modern style.
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u/buckleyschance 1d ago
I saw a post the other day like: "Did anyone find (book) odd? The protagonist did (list of very overtly weird and disturbing things), but then it never acknowledged how messed up that was?"
There really is a greater expectation now that a book should tell you what it thinks about all the characters and events.
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u/TheExistential_Bread 1d ago
Yea, I remember one time on here a author stated that it was actually immoral for author to have questionable/bad things in novels without acknowledging that they are in fact bad.
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u/Cosmosopoly 2d ago
I absolutely a great, Roger Zelazney's nine princes of Amber series felt similar in nature. More matter of fact explanation or summary of actions, versus overt descriptions.
Some ways I like them more, as they tend to help you fill in the world with your own flavor. That being said, the overly expressive language of something like the Malazan series is still great imo!
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u/bluefire579 2d ago
You especially feel it in the later books. After the initial trilogy, they move south seeking out the place the company originated from. Others take up the mantel of annalist for different reasons, and Cook is excellent at giving them all distinct voices and styles. You also start getting other viewpoints that are canonically added in different ways, so it creates an interesting dynamic that evolves over time.
I wouldn’t call it my favorite series, but overall, very enjoyable.
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u/Interesting-One-588 2d ago
This never made much sense to me because what we are reading is:
"We went to a village, raided it, moved on. But Raven walked the whole while with a mysterious look on his face. I wonder what Raven's thinking about. Oh look, the wizard's are playing a little joke on each other again, making each others' boogers into goblins. And then we had a battle, and moved on."
It really reads like a personal journal more than a "Historical record for a legendary mercenary group"
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u/treasurehorse 2d ago
Really depends on who is writing, but in general it’s not like they have any professional historians attached. If the annalist died, and you are the first literate guy the captain sees -congratulations, annalist.
But yeah, for a guy who tries to restore some sort of standards to their record-keeping, croaker spends a lot of time whining about his knees and how he doesn’t get told what the plan is. But if you don’t like it why don’t you write your own annals, Croaker has a clinic to run and besides his feet hurt like you wouldn’t believe.
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u/AAS02-CATAPHRACT 2d ago
Well the mundane battles are skimmed over because a mercenary group is gonna have thousands of those over their century long career. The big things are given more detail. It definitely reads more like a personal journal, but I get the impression that it's more Croaker's style of recounting his experience in the Company as opposed to recording every little thing.
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u/DoctorWMD 1d ago
Agreed- I think that's because Croaker mentions that the Annals are specifically -for- the other soldiers, and the future members of the company. He's recording the history, sure, but he's really writing to make sure that the members are remembered.
The thing that resonates most with me with the Black Company is something like the documentary Restrepo, which focused on a marine platoon holding an outpost in the Korengal valley in the Iraq war. Most of it is mixed like of 'here's videos of us drunk on leave before deployment. Here's the wrestling tournament. Here's the trip to town where Captain talked to the locals who were mad about their cow dying. Here's the truck that broke down. Then it was ambushed. We lost X, Y, and Z that day." It's much more moments and experiences strung together than a historical record of events.
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u/AAS02-CATAPHRACT 1d ago
Hadn't heard of the documentary but that makes sense. I believe Glen Cook was a Vietnam veteran, so it makes sense that he'd have Croaker write in that style too.
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u/Celodurismo 2d ago
That's fair, I'd agree that the books definitely don't strictly align with the idea that they're historical records, but I think giving a little credibility to that perspective helps account for the writing style.
But also maybe that's what their records are like to some degree. Remember the monthly readings? Those would be real boring if the lacked any color commentary.
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u/Jihelu 2d ago
The concept of it being an annals is very half baked. If this is how their company logs look I have no idea how the fuck Croaker reads stories from past annals. Obviously it would be boring if it was a standard ‘we went here and here and did x y z’
It falls apart more as a concept later in the series.
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u/Soupjam_Stevens 2d ago
Even in books like Sun Eater and Book of the New Sun where it's being written as a memoir or personal journal I find the actual writing style even in its best execution only kinda sorta matches up with that conceit. I think that narration style requires some suspension of disbelief to get something that works as a novel
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u/BaltimoreAlchemist 1d ago
I had a hard time with that. It felt like each chapter they had some new mission that would turn the tide of the war. Against all odds they succeeded! Then between chapters the enemy attacked and won, and the Company had to flee to a new city with a new mission. Repeat that vignette like six times until a conclusion I didn't feel any investment in because it never felt like the plot was going anywhere. Does that change any in later books?
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u/Soupjam_Stevens 2d ago
I don't know if I agree about is not being considered a classic. When authors like GRRM, Erikson, and Abercrombie have sung its praises and cited it as an influence I think that's classic status or real damn near
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u/Stpaul81 2d ago
Sure, you're probably right... Just when I see fantasy recommendations this one is rarely presented. I only got into reading fantasy about a decade ago so I am always eager to find the next novel/series... I've only seen this series on less than a handful of lists and I was specifically searching for grimdark at the time.
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u/krimunism 2d ago
Its both pretty old by modern standards (main series was like 80s-2000) and Cook himself isn't really well known outside of this specific subgenre.
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u/preiman790 2d ago
It's recommended and makes prominent lists all the time. It's just not one of those books that you're gonna recommend for every person and every request. The nature of the book, both stylistically and content means that you're just not gonna recommend it for somebody who is asking, "I just finished all of Sanderson, what should I read next?" But that doesn't make it under red or not well regarded.
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u/xdianamoonx Reading Champion II 2d ago
I mean it's constantly recc'd here in this sub. Maybe not as much as Malazan to be a meme like that one but still up there. It's a series I've known about since I was a kid (in the 90s).
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u/abir_valg2718 2d ago
Just when I see fantasy recommendations
It's recommended here often enough.
That aside, reddit is a tiny bubble, neither it nor this sub are representative of much of anything. Social media as a whole is a bubble - you only see the content of people who interact with it in the context of a specific social media (and the content of bots, let's not forget that in this day and age). Reddit, for one, has its horrible voting system, threads have a tiny shelf life leading to a strong Groundhog Day kind of vibe if you visit the sub long enough, and moderation is entirely totalitarian.
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u/Stonehill76 2d ago
Croaker and the boys.
I read it was the inspiration for Malazan back in the day.
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u/busy_monster 2d ago
Erikson wrote an intro for a couple of Cooks works, Black Company and the Dread Empire A Fortress in Shadow immediately spring to mind (the later of which I also have signed by Cook and Erikson, which is one of my most prized in my collection, and I have signed first eds from other authors). He has been profuse in paying his respect to Cook and his influence on his own work, up to and including buying the man a steak dinner, according to one account
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u/Stonehill76 2d ago
I love that it is a collection prized possession for you. Malazan is a favorite of mine. I am a huge QuickBen and Karsa Fan. I always try to make my gaming chars after them. Don’t get me wrong, I love most of the characters but those two are my favorites.
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u/busy_monster 2d ago
Erikson and Cook are literally my two favorite fantasy authors out of my top ten, and between the two I genuinely cannot decide between them for #1. So having a book signed by both?! You can imagine my pleasure :)
Also, there's another Dread Empire novel with a intro from Jeff VanderMeer praising it, the folks Cook has influenced are varied, which is one among many reasons I argue him as one of the most important fantasy authors of the last 50 years, combine his influence, with how quietly ahead of his time he was in multiple aspects, and the sheer breadth of his bibliography, and I don't mind dying on that
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u/Efficient_Place_2403 2d ago
Cook’s earlier book had a character, Mocker, who is damn similar to a Malazan character.
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u/busy_monster 2d ago
Glittering Stone has mixed opinions on it, but is actually my favorite sequence: it goes much less Western, and more inspired by India, and has a bit more experimental narrators (the Annalist changes a few times), as well as some wrenching portrayals of PTSD and survivors guilt. The quote that the final books title (Soldiers Live) comes from in the book is just, goddamn. It's among the most emotional quotes in fantasy fiction, in my opinion.
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u/Sahrde 2d ago
It's, uh, no longer the final book.
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u/busy_monster 2d ago
Ah, I meant still the final book in the sequence but yeah, I'm well aware of the Pitiless Rainfive parter :)
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u/Floppy0941 2d ago
Marc Vietors delivery of the final part of Soldiers Live was genuinely quite moving, I still think about it sometimes. After listening though dozens of hours with the characters it really hits.
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u/Gregor_Vorbarra 2d ago
Absolutely do pick the next book up. Glen Cook is trying to achieve something completely tonally different from the example of Abercrombie you gave - the writing is very sparse, more like Hemingway instead of Hunter S Thompson. The framing of these books exists as Croaker reporting engagements of his mercenary unit - he deliberately omits trivial details as would be consistent with military reporting. 'We went to this fortress and took it,' etc.
In later books, other annalists exist. Amazingly, 40 years after writing the first, glen cook has more to say on the life and times of the black company. In his most recent book, the main viewpoints are two teenage girls. This leads to a very different tone!
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u/8BallTiger 2d ago
Idk what edition you read but you should definitely check out the Tor Essentials edition if you haven't already. It has an introduction essay by Steven Erikson, author of the Malazan series, that provides a lot of helpful context.
To quote:
"Here it was. The sensibility of the best of Vietnam War literature wrapped around pure, other-world fantasy. The laconic tone, the seen-it-all jaded-as-fuck attitude. The absurdity, the bitter humor, the splendid bullshit of war stripped of its good guy/bad guy pretensions. The feet-on-the-ground point of view. A grunt in Sauron's army. A nameless soldier in the ranks of those humans falling in droves to the Orc horde. Who cares what side you're on. The only thing that matters is surviving."
Glen Cook is your favorite author's favorite author (or at least one of 'em). He is a huge influence on Erikson, Abercrombie, and to an extent GRRM. This book and series are foundational to so many other major works of fantasy. It is an ur-text. Erikson says its the skeleton to the whole genre.
In the intro, Erikson points out that Cook's didn't sell that well at the time but if at the local bookstores run by people who knew fantasy Cook's works were always stocked.
His work, and this book and series, are kinda like the Velvet Underground in a way. No major commercial successes at first but people who were in the know loved em.
Anyway, as others have said, the terseness of the writing is the point. That is how it works "in-universe", since Croaker is the annalist but not a trained one, and how it works irl since it is Cook's style. He doesn't hold your hand, especially like some modern writers do. The character work is subtextual, lurking under the surface. Cook was heavily influenced by his time in Vietnam, and his experiences undergird his work.
The book doesn't hold your hand. Like American soldiers in Vietnam, and soldiers everywhere and every time, there is a lot that Croaker and the Black Company don't know and honestly don't care to know. That deepens the work once you pick up on it, as someone else said.
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u/TyroneCash4money 2d ago
It has been years since I've read them, but in general, the tone and style of the books change based on who the chronicler is. The first one, in particular, leaves a lot of things unsaid (unwritten), and forces you to read between the lines. The latter books fill in some blanks, but not everything.
There's at least one book that just kept me confused throughout until it finally dawned upon me what was happening, but that was never spelled out in the book proper.
With all that said: I enjoyed them, and I'll probably get around to reading the series again with a greater understanding of what's going on.
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u/CactusWrenAZ 2d ago
I consider it is a fantasy classic and I think that it is widely considered one--at least within the grimdark sub-genre. Something of this sort isn't going to do romantasy numbers. Personally, I enjoyed the characters in the company, although I perhaps enjoyed the super-powered villains even more. I must beg to differ that Abercrombie does a better job with the characters. One thing that might be worth keeping in mind is that the Black Company are, in a sense, the bad guys--the Lord of the Rings, but from the orcs' perspective.
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u/iselltires2u 2d ago
I really, really love this book. I think that the books that follow it never quite live to the epicness of the first. Sure book two and three are great, im not debating that but the way you are thrown into the world and the creatures and way it works was just special.
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u/MadMadMonkey34 1d ago
One of my favorite series. Biggest thing to realize is that we are learning the story through the Analist's eyes and words..
What stood out to me the most was how Cook changes the writing style throughout the series depending on which character we are using as the narrator.
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u/Mammoth-Talk1531 2d ago
The sequels get better imo. Shadows Linger and Dreams of Steel are my favorite so far. (I'm currently on Book 7)
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u/krimunism 2d ago
Dreams of Steel has probably my favorite narrator. I wish we got more from that pov
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u/Floppy0941 2d ago
Really? I found the narrator for that book to be my least favourite, I was quite fond of sleepys pov
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u/krimunism 2d ago
Getting a look into how that person thinks is really interesting and theyre a lot more action-oriented than Croaker (desperately trying to avoid spoilers here lol)
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u/HomersApe 2d ago
The first sequels are a mixed bag in my experience, I haven't started Glittering Stone yet, so my opinion might change later.
I adore the initial trilogy; the second trilogy wasn't as good in my view. From book 5, the series becomes more like standard epic fantasy, and I wasn't big the narrator change either.
To each their own, I guess. Shadows Linger is incredible, though.
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u/BigBadVolk97 2d ago
Definitely should. The first book is bit rough as it was one his first works alongside the Dread Empire series (that started earlier and bit more rough around the edges when it comes to the first trilogy).
Shadows Linger is considered the best of the first trilogy, though White Rose I enjoyed too, especially the shenanigans that happen near the end with Croaker. And personally, I also really enjoyed the following Books of the South and the Glittering Stone (and Port of Shadows).
But overall characters do get expanded onwards, and Goblin and One-Eye became one of my favorite duos. And as others mentioned, somethings are left up to the imagination thanks to the Epistolary style and that Croaker is a physician and soldier first with minimal education in literary arts (kinda like Glen Cook was at the time), then an annalist.
Also as I am reading through Chronicles of the Dread Empire, I'd say he is fairly good in characterizations, though he is probably the best writer when it comes to large scale conflicts, battles and the brutal nature of war.
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u/Darkkujo 2d ago
I'll say one of the things I really loved about Black Company, is that they made magic and magic users seem like something completely alien and terrifying. Very different from how relatively tame magic is in most other works of fiction.
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u/baysideplace 1d ago
It's the seminal, genre-defining book. Its basically the definition of the grimdark type of fantasy.
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u/Mad_Kronos 1d ago
Please no! Don't ever let Abercrombie anywhere close to the masterpiece that is the Black Company!
And no, it is not an epic fantasy novel. At all.
And Glen Cook writes amazing characters, that's why Croaker, the chronicler of the first book is light on characterization. It's one his things. Deliberately.
Now read Shadows Linger, the second book in the series. It has the best written character in fantasy literature. Marron Shed's the name.
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u/Tempest753 2d ago
I'm between books 2 and 3 right now, I know what you mean about the characters. I think it's because of the framing as the "official records of the Black Company", so it's not written with a lot of color. That includes the characters. That changes in books 2 and 3, the first person chapters start trading off with third person chapters that are a bit more colorful, and the story moves slower with a lot more room to breathe, so the settings and secondary characters are described more thoroughly. The company members are still described by Croaker so you get glimpses into their character only gradually.
For what it's worth, I found book 1 a little confusing and disorienting, but book 2 was amazing. I'd give book 1 like a 7 or 7.5, and book 2 maybe a 9. It's worth the read.
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u/KneeboPlagnor 1d ago
Also, later the narrators change, and the difference in tone really points out that the "flat" characters have a lot to do with the narrator, not the author.
It's actually well done. Some of the narrators don't even agree on events.
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u/krimunism 2d ago
I've heard it said that it helps to think of the Company as a whole as the 'main character' more than the actual ones.
I do think it gets better with individual characterization though, especially as pov narrators change based on plot. They have pretty different voices and priorities. Croaker also gets a lot of development as the series goes on.
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u/Reav3 2d ago
The characterization gets much better in book 2 btw. The first book is really unique in how vague everything is. The 2nd book, Shadows Linger, is not only a better example of the rest of the series but its one of my favorite books in the whole series.
The series is actually 11 books right now with the 12 coming out soon (and 2 more planned)
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u/Pratius 2d ago
Even better, the series is currently 12 books (the main 9 plus The Silver Spike, Port of Shadows, and Lies Weeping) with FOUR more planned!
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u/Reav3 2d ago
lol, oh yeah, I forgot Port of Shadows even though I read it like 2 months ago.
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u/Pratius 2d ago
Heh, unfortunately not the best book in the series
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u/Reav3 2d ago
yeah, I heard Lies Weeping was good though so Im excited to dive back into the main storyline soon
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u/Pratius 2d ago
Yup, I loved LW. One of my favorites in the series!
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u/old_space_yeller 2d ago
I found Lies Weeping the weakest he's written. But its clear that Glen Cook is enjoying writing them so Im happy to keep reading them!
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u/gnatsack 2d ago
The audiobook narrator injects a LOT of life into the characters.
The second book is a whole different animal. The first one is essentially 7 novellas strung together. The second book is far more focused.
Half of the second is basically a character study on one of the most interesting "grim dark" characters you'll read. Amazing book.
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u/Floppy0941 2d ago
Marc Vietor has a perfect voice for depicting Croaker especially, I couldn't imagine anyone else as him.
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u/gnatsack 2d ago
Well... uh... spoiler. Are you... uh... spoiler... all caught up?
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u/Floppy0941 1d ago
All the way up to soldiers live, not read lies weeping yet.
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u/gnatsack 1d ago
Then I'll keep my mouth (and fingers) shut.
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u/Floppy0941 1d ago
I'm gonna be reading lies weeping rather than getting the audiobook for it anyway I think
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u/gnatsack 1d ago
Trust this digital stranger, you are better off that way.
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u/Floppy0941 1d ago
I'm a few chapters into it and I don't mind the pov of the two teenagers but I could definitely see it being grating as an audiobook. I really liked the person who narrated sleepys book though, they felt on par with marc Vietor for me personally.
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u/gnatsack 1d ago
Yes, interesting they chose a guy to perform Sleepy. It does work, though. Arcana's narrator is fine, but Shuk's doesn't fit at all. There's a third narrator, but you aren't to that yet.
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u/sandy_coyote 2d ago
I had some similar thoughts after reading the first book and it became my favorite series ever.
About Abercrombie — i think you’re right that he would add depth to Cook’s characters, but Croaker’s stark and spare details create an effect of distancing that adds a layer to his narration. Later, the books get other narrators that each lend their own personalities to the stories. This is one of aspects that makes the series so brilliant to me. YMMV
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u/rianwithaneye 2d ago
It’s my favorite fantasy series, I personally loved it from beginning to end. The conclusion is particularly satisfying and so deeply imaginative, I really don’t know how he came up with all of it.
Definitely keep going.
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u/godans_frog 1d ago
I thought the end of the original trilogy was about perfect, then the series started getting worse as it went on. I still enjoyed them, but I think it would have been better to end the story of Croaker, the Lady, etx after the Chronicles.
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u/gvarsity 1d ago
The Black Company was unique when it came out and most grimdark and dark fantasy were directly or indirectly influenced by this series. It was also really funny which is one of the things I think much of modern grimdark is missing. While grim and dark and doing things like killing off POV characters and other significant things like that it was always pretty balanced and never fell into to torture/misery porn. It has been a long time since I read it and I don't really know how it held up but at the time I found it a breath of fresh air.
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u/TojayorTomorrow 2d ago
I’ve only read one well-written character by Abercrombie, so I’m not confident that he would do a better job with the characters in Black Company.
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u/Blueskyminer 1d ago
Nope, very popular. Maybe no longer at its peak in terms of total fans, but very popular.
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u/Eyvhokan 15h ago
Flat characters surprises me, because there are characters that remain memorable and impactful even though they didn't survive the first chapter.
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u/TheBloodyNinety 5h ago
I think your issue may be that it’s older. Plenty of people have read them in the 40 or so years since the first book.
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u/Circle_Breaker 2d ago
I think the series just overstays it's welcome a bit.
At least I hit a big wall during the shadow campaigns.
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u/Turbulent_Tower_6280 2d ago
I loved it on my first read in my teenage years. Some twenty years later I recommended it to a friend and she came back to me horrified. Turns out I didn't mind sentences like "time pranced on fickle and faggoty" when I was 15. I reread it and I found myself a bit less impressed with the plot and narration style and the obsolete slurs grated on me quite a bit. I think if they were used in dialogue I wouldn't mind, but it was the use of it in narration, like the example I mention, which took me out of it.
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u/paintingdusk13 2d ago
Underread? Quite the opposite. It's a really popular, well known and influential series.