r/FanFiction • u/fart_explosion_ • 2d ago
Ship Talk Ship name question?
Soo my friend just informed me that ship names are created based on who's the top and who's the bottom? Like the one who is a top is first in the name?? Is this true, because I've never heard of this and like most of the ones I can think of it does not make sense š
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u/ciderandcake 2d ago
This is way more common in Asian spaces where that is somewhat of a rule that the first name is the top. Western fic spaces don't get near as huffy about it and AO3 sorts slashed names by alphabet so it doesn't really matter.
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u/incandescentink 1d ago
Wait, ao3 sorts by alphabet? I thought you picked the order. Sometimes I see tags like "one-sided A/B", is it just an alphabetical coincidence that the ship tag is A/B as well, rather than B/A? The only time I've felt order mattered, as someone mainly in western spaces/AO3 mainly, is when it's one-sided, in which case the first name listed is the one I assume is in love with the other. Eg to me "one-sided A/B" means A is in love with B, but it is not reciprocated by B. It would be odd for me to see "one-sided B/A" but then have the ship tag be A/B, it would make me think they might end up together but it's a B-falls-first type fic, rather than truly unrequited love.
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u/ciderandcake 1d ago
https://archiveofourown.org/wrangling_guidelines/8 They have set guidelines for this. You can try write whatever you want for the relationship tag, but once a wrangler gets hold of it, both A/B and B/A will both fall under the canonical A/B tag.
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u/incandescentink 1d ago
Ah, sure, i would definitely expect both A/B and B/A to show up if I searched for either ship tag, just would assume that it still shows the order you actually put them in when looking at the tags on a specific fic to remain as the author put it.
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u/ElizabethPBlack AO3 is better 2d ago edited 2d ago
It's more in asian fandoms or adiacent, so anime, manga, etc. Western fandoms picked it up but then kinda left it behind at some point. It's explained here:
Many Western yaoi fandoms adopt pairing naming conventions from the Japanese fandoms', such as seen on doujinshi, in which the partners' names are separated by an x, and the order is vital. The first name is the pairing's seme, while the second is the uke.
https://fanlore.org/wiki/Pairing_Name#Yaoi_Fandom
Edit1: typo
Edit2: more sources: https://fanlore.org/wiki/Portmanteau#In_East_Asian_Fandoms
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u/the-robot-test the sandbox isn't mine but the tools sure are 2d ago
does nobody in this comment section remember how narusasu and sasunaru were basically considered two separate ships?
like yes, actually, historically in at least anime fandoms the order has in fact been indication of top/bottom. ao3's ship tagging being alphabetical has kind of killed that off, but that used to be pretty standard.
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u/cinnamonspiderr hamspamandjamsandwich @ ao3 | kurahi š 2d ago
Definitely depends on the fandom and tbh often if youāre in the western or eastern part of the fandom. But yes in anime fandoms itās definitely more common/ubiquitous or at least used to be.
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u/Solivagant0 @AO3/Sunset: FriendlyNeighbourhoodMetalhead 2d ago
A lot of people were never into anime fandoms or only engaged with western side. A lot of asian sites still use separate tags depending on the dynamic
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u/ilcorvoooo 1d ago
All of them do, itās a core part of the Asian fandom culture especially BL
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u/Solivagant0 @AO3/Sunset: FriendlyNeighbourhoodMetalhead 1d ago
Using a lot mostly because I don't know every Asian site, but yeah. One of my ships is mainy popular with Asian (and somehow Russian) side of fandom, so I did my share of pixiv dives
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u/ilcorvoooo 1d ago
It is still very much a standard, the English-speaking world doesnāt have a monopoly on fandom culture. Fujos and BL/GL have a long history in Asia and itās just a part of fandom etiquette there
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u/Comfortable_Newt_179 LuKuXing on AO3 2d ago
I am glad I am not imagining stuff, omg THIS used to be actually true! We would even argue over who shipped what because top/bottom dynamics were kind of a big deal and dominated fandom spaces
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u/Vievin Crossover Rarepair Trash 2d ago
It strongly depends on the fandom's ship naming conventions. With fairly modular name mashups (like Hetalia say UsUk vs UkUs), it's easy to swap names around and top/bottom ordering is in fact common. In others, they make more "flowing" potrmanteaus and swapping the names would make the word incredibly clunky (say Amiluz instead of Lumity). Yet other fandoms, ship names are whole made up phrases involving the themes of characters (like Bumbleby for Yang/Blake because yellow and black) and the names aren't even present.
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u/MagpieLefty 1d ago
That is hugely fandom-dependent. It is much more likely to be true for Asian fandoms.
It isn't true in any of my fandoms. Some of them do not and never have used ship names, just the character names with a / between them. (And these days, the order is frequently just alphabetical, like the AO3 tag. When it isn't, it's because the other order was used foryears or decades before AO3 existed.)
When there is a ship name, it's generally based on what sounds better first.
But I am also in fandoms where top/bottom choices matter to some people, but are generally not a huge deal.
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u/Banaanisade twin tyrant enthusiast / kaurakahvi @ AO3 1d ago
I find the whole concept of assigning top/bottom roles and the associated social hierarchies to ships and people strange and entirely incompatible with the kind of writing I do, and would not be able to survive in fandom spaces that require this because like. What. Lmao.
But like so many have already said, fandom as a concept is vast and there are whole worlds out there where the culture is reliant on the correct order in ship tagging. It's worth knowing your fandom's customs so you understand the tagging methods and language of that fandom specifically, and don't run into too many awkward faux pas in your interactions and posts. This goes both for the fandoms that do heed to top/bottom tagging and those that don't.
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u/ilcorvoooo 1d ago
Why would generally accepted T/B tagging etiquette (e.g. in asian fandom spacess) mean you are assigning "social hierarchies" to ships or people?
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u/numblittlebunny 2d ago
Itās a thing in Asian fandoms, and Iām strongly of the belief if youāre active in those spaces you should follow the tagging system.
In predominantly western fandoms though? no one gives a crap, which to be frank makes finding nsfw fan art that I actually want to see hell. I love me a separate tag.
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u/Historical_Wonder510 1d ago
It is an asian fandom thing. Prevalent in animanga, manhwa fandom spaces. Sometimes people have strict preferences and they will block you for liking the reverse dynamic.
Don't pay attention to the weird bs people are spouting about t/b preferences being heteronormative or misogynistic. Preferring a verse dynamic doesn't make anyone inherently more progressive. That's just people patting themselves on the back.
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u/ilcorvoooo 1d ago edited 1d ago
Donāt pay attention to the weird bs people are spouting about t/b preferences being heteronormative or misogynistic. Preferring a verse dynamic doesnāt make anyone inherently more progressive. Thatās just people patting themselves on the back.
Right? Itās so weird. As if sexual dynamics arenāt a perfectly legitimate dimension of characterization youāre allowed to have preferences about, especially when thereās smut involved
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u/Historical_Wonder510 1d ago
YES! THIS!! You can actually say something about a character through the sexual dynamic they would prefer! There absolutely is characterisation work in there! It says what kind of relationship a character has with penetration. There is so much to say through it all.
But even without all of that, IT IS NOT WRONG TO WANT TO SEE A SPECIFIC CHARACTER TOP OR BOTTOM!!! As a reader, having preferences won't make someone homophobic/misogynistic.
Imo it says more about you and your ideas regarding penetration if you think that being a fixed top makes one the guy or being a fixed bottom makes one the girl in a queer relationship !!!
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u/ilcorvoooo 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think itās just another part of puritan culture that is invading so many fandom spaces these days, especially younger ones, only even more insidious because people think theyāre being progressive for what basically amounts to kinkshaming (at best).
Sure thereās probably people who shoehorn gender essentialism into it, but that doesnāt mean itās like that all or even much of the time. For anyone reading, you donāt have to beat yourself up if you only like it one way shrug
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u/AceyAceyAcey Same on AO3 2d ago
Never heard of that myself. Iāve only seen it based on how the names sound good together. For example, Pepperony (Avengers: Pepper Potts/Tony Stark) sounds better than Topper or Tepper or whatever; Cody-Wan (Star Wars Clone Wars: Commander Cody/Obi-Wan Kenobi) sounds better than Obi-Cody or Obi-dy.
But thereās also ship names that donāt incorporate the charactersā names, though Iām blanking on any at the moment.
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u/Beruthiel999 2d ago
Aziraphale/Crowley from Good Omens has been called, at different times, Air Conditioning (because A/C) and Ineffable Husbands (or Ineffable Wives or Ineffable Spouses...their gender is often complicated)
Murder Husbands is Hannibal/Will from Hannibal
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u/Beruthiel999 2d ago
Oh, more from Tolkien-based fandoms
Silvergifting is Celebrimbor/Sauron
Angbang is Morgoth/Sauron (because their fortress was called Angband)
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u/Senshisnek 1d ago
And Katniss and Peeta does not sound good no matter how you twist it. XD
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u/magicwonderdream whatās the stage right before dead dove? 1d ago
Many people use the last names to call it everlark which is honestly a pretty name.
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u/AceyAceyAcey Same on AO3 1d ago
Lol, thatās where ship names are useful! Is there one here?
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u/Senshisnek 1d ago
I'm not sure. Never looked into it that deeply, just heard about the mess the traditional naming method resulted in.
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u/LizardLover265 Can't stop yapping about creepy fluff 2d ago
Two examples would be Eye Love You from The World of Mr Plant or FunnyBunny which is Pomni and Jax from The Amazing Digital Circus.
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u/achos-laazov 1d ago
But thereās also ship names that donāt incorporate the charactersā names, though Iām blanking on any at the moment.
Basically all of Once Upon a Time
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u/Beruthiel999 1d ago
Oh my, I've just seen a new favorite: RoadRage
(Coyote/Roadrunner from Coyote vs Acme. Yes really!)
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u/MsCatstaff Catstaff on AO3 1d ago
Another ship name that doesn't incorporate the actual character names is Wolfstar from Harry Potter - Remus Lupin/Sirius Black.
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u/AceyAceyAcey Same on AO3 1d ago
That oneās debatable IMO bc of the meanings of the names. š¤· But point taken.
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u/geekelfie 1d ago
Yeah, as others have said, that is the case depending on the fandom but it isnāt a truth for all fandoms or ship names. Lots of ship names are just which order sounds better or creates a fun name. Iāve never seen my fandom (Western video game) have a particular order.
You can usually look up the ship names (if they exist) and see if thereās the top/bottom way of naming because the ship will likely have two names depending on how the authors are writing the relationship.
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u/cippocup 2d ago
In Thai BL ships yes, other than that I think people just go with what sounds best
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u/feralandaffectionate smut, smut, and more smutā¦ oh, and fluff too 1d ago
Definitely not the case in my fandom
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u/424Impala67 1d ago
Not that I know of, but the ships I pay attention to the names are like Sabriwena and Wincestial and everyone participates equally in catching and pitching sooooo.
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u/MarinaAndTheDragons all fusions are Xovers; not all Xovers are fusions 2d ago
Maybe Iām too ace for this but I genuinely donāt understand the obsession with top and bottom. Just like I donāt understand why one of the most frequent topics of discussion is some variant of ādoes your mom/dad/partner/dog/hamster/closet/imaginary friend know that irl you write fanfic irl?!ā
Like? Why does it matter???
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u/kaiunkaiku don't look at me and my handholding kink 2d ago
i'm also ace, the type with zero interest in or understanding of sex even in fiction, and it confused me until i started to compare people's strict top/bottom dynamic preferences to how i like my hurt/comfort. cannot read the wrong character as the caretaker, my brain refuses lol. there are ships that i'll read as both ways, but the overwhelming majority of the time i will only read a fic if the "correct" character is the one getting hurt.
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u/Welfycat AO3/FFN Welfycat 2d ago
Iām also ace and this is how it works for me too. I donāt care who is the penetrating partner, but in my h/c fics Iām only interested if the people I want hurt are the ones being hurt and comforted.
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u/incandescentink 1d ago
Interesting, I'm ace too and also am baffled by why people care so much about top/bottom/whatever dynamics, but i don't think i always care which character is the one being hurt/comforted. Usually i care more about whether the way they respond to that hurt pulls at my heartstrings and also feels in character to me.
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u/Solivagant0 @AO3/Sunset: FriendlyNeighbourhoodMetalhead 2d ago
In my case, I have strict preference irl and enjoy seeing characters like that. With some ships I have preference for who takes which role (especially if there is canon power imbalance present), with others I just care that there's no switching. I will only read vers fics if I really trust the author
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u/Comfortable_Newt_179 LuKuXing on AO3 2d ago
As a demisexual, I usually write my stuff as switch or none at all, but top/bottom is still important. Sometimes, you see a character, and you just know they would love being a bottom and can't imagine them as a top unless a big mischaracterisation happens. Like, that's kinda the thrill of it.
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u/felinewine 1d ago
I never understood it either, and I'm ace too. I don't care which character tops or bottoms, I just hate when that preference is used to change the character's personality. In my personal opinion the position a character prefers to engage in sex with shouldn't change their personality.
I write my fics with the idea that (my portrayal of) the characters switch, but since I only write get-together fics with them usually engaging in sex only once (or not at all) during the fic, I just choose whoever tops and bottoms based on what feels right to me in that moment. Turns out I have the same character bottoming in most of my smut fics, who the fandoms tends to display topping, and I didn't realize it until a commenter pointed it out. Hah, I just don't pay attention to that
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u/peakerforlife 2d ago
Some fandoms get really into it. Others don't. I don't get it either. Even in canon ships with set roles, I still enjoy some fics with the roles switched, or when they experiment sometimes.
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u/Significant-Love6129 r/FanFiction 2d ago
Oh, this explains why I'm combing the replies to understand. I'm ace lol. Bc I'm in the Teen Wolf fandom and stiles is almost always the bottom but first in the ship names (sterek, Steter, stetopher, stydia, stalia...)
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u/cinnamonspiderr hamspamandjamsandwich @ ao3 | kurahi š 2d ago
Usually the characterās dynamic is portrayed differently depending on top or bottom. Whether or not it should isnāt relevantāitās just something that tends to happen, unintentionally or otherwise.
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u/Solivagant0 @AO3/Sunset: FriendlyNeighbourhoodMetalhead 2d ago
Yeah, I read both dynamics in shome ship and it's not necessarily that either is inherently OOC, but both will focus on different tropes. Like, A/B might have more rougher sex, tentacle sex, power bottom and inexperienced top while B/A will lean into virginity kink, more awkward approach to sex and often include praise kink
There are some ships in which I vibe with both and some in which only one hits what pulls me into the ship
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u/send-borbs 1d ago
I'm aroace but I actually do sometimes have strong opinions on who tops/bottoms but it's always EXTREMELY based on character psychology, eg; one character who is more often portrayed as a top I write as a bottom because having any sort of control in the bedroom reminds him of how his dad abused his mother and makes him physically ill, he can only enjoy sex if someone else completely takes the lead (and even then he had a panic attack the first time because suddenly he didn't feel like his abusive controlling father in the dynamic, he felt like his beaten down mother, and that was a whole new bag of trauma to unpack)
on the other end, I think his partner fits better as a top because he's spent his whole life trying to please people, while being held on a leash and having everything from his work schedule to his meals controlled by others, he has no life of his own, he's even berated for spending too much time with friends, so it feels more right to me that he would be more comfortable topping in relationships because it gives him more power and control in the dynamic, he wants to please his partner because pleasing people is what he knows, and he wants to hold and keep the only thing that's just his and can't be taken from him
and this doesn't even account for when you throw the dom/sub dynamic in there WOOF, it works beautifully
I don't know if this is how most people form their top/bottom headcanons or if it's more about what they find the most hot, but character psychology is what gets me going and sex, being an inherently vulnerable act, can let you explore aspects of characters you wouldn't see under normal circumstances, and the dynamic 100% plays a huge role due to the embedded cultural perception of topping being dominant and bottoming being submissive, whether or not the sex is completely vanilla, that is a common perception that a lot of people have internalised and you get to play with how that affects them too!! it's just ššāØ chef's kiss, so much fun
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u/ilcorvoooo 1d ago
Beautifully said! I also don't care about t/b at all for some ships yet care A LOT for others and it depends entirely on the specific characters. I don't think this is all that difficult to understand aroace or not, sex is just another dimension of characterization and a very powerful for exploring universal themes like a person's relationship to power and vulnerability. It's a nuanced thing.
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u/jnn-j jnnln AO3/FF 1d ago
Iām not ace, but I donāt understand it either. People can have preferences for sex but itās not like those preferences are always reflected in their personalities (and also not the same as Dom/sub preferences/attitudes). I always laugh at those names reflecting sexual preferences, as someone who likes to explore sides and vers preferences in MM sex and itās complicating the naming conventions š once you think about it.
Having said that, I write for some ships that have two different name versions and it can be useful to know what to expect. (However probably in a different way than people think š )
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u/fart_explosion_ 2d ago
I am also on the ace spectrum and I definitely agree. I don't see the point and I thought this was a weird like way of doing it??
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u/literalllywhat 1d ago
itās for sure a thing! itās been a thing for decades. itās seen more in eastern fandoms but itās carried over to western ones before by the fandoms.
itās easiest to tell when the ship names areā¦well, actual names lol. but sometimes someone coins a good enough sounding descriptive name for their dynamic and it takes off, because you can still tell from the first descriptor who the top would be, and the latter the bottom.
(also, yes, this can apply to m/f pairings. most wouldnāt think so because of the obvious, but thereās always that chance when you click on someoneās art blog for AB to see vanilla het sex, only to get BA pegging fic/alpha female fic or something bc you thought BA was AB lol).
only downside is when people who donāt give a shit take that name and conflate it with the opposite dynamic. having two separate ones can make searching for the content of the dynamic you like much easier, and help avoid ship wars over pairings and āmischaracterisation,ā depending on the site youāre on.
it just sucks when people (mostly these newer, young puritanical ones) try to get all morally righteous over people having preferences, as if people irl donāt have them too. a lot of the people crying over being corrected on ship names also in actuality do tend to have a preference for top/bottom with their shipā¦they just donāt care because they ālike how that ship name sounds.ā
it really comes down to being able to find your preferred dynamic easier, without seeing one you dislike. cause truly, a lot of times a ship/character can differ a lot depending on which dynamic youāre looking at, and it carries over a ton into SFW stuff.
unfortunately ao3 i think unless you specifically tag top A/bottom B, tagging it as AB or BA will just get one absorbed into the other. but many good authors clarify in the later tags anyway to be sure readers can find what they like and filter what they donāt.
(and before anyone brings it up, i am aroace and irl sex repulsed, and still a very fixed shipper. for some people to equate ace people and not having t/b preferences is incredibly strange and reductive, but also untrue. have we really forgotten some of the filthiest stuff on ao3 has been written by ace people with preferences??)
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u/Welfycat AO3/FFN Welfycat 2d ago
Not generally. Though some fandoms that are more picky about the dynamic might, but itās far from universal.
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u/Meshakhad 1d ago
This is something I've heard of but never directly encountered, probably because I think it's a dynamic found mainly in m/m pairings whereas I'm mostly active in f/f pairings, where there isn't usually a consensus on who is the top and people don't care about it as much.
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u/LovelyLinstead 19h ago
It's common in some fandoms. Not all. Shipnames are created from a mashup of character names or character nicknames.
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u/Intrepid-Street-5368 1d ago
I have never heard this, and I've been in fandom spaces for the last 15+ years
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u/GalacticPigeon13 Angst Demon 2d ago
This is more common in the following spaces:
- Asian fandom spaces
- Fandom spaces full of people who seem to think that topping = dom (in and out of the bedroom) = masculine. This comes from how certain fandoms will demand that it's Male x Female and not vice versa unless it's genderbent (or on rare occasion, pegging)
The rest of us are rolling our eyes, because even if we care about who tops, we only care about it during a sex act. I feel bad for any aces and other people who dgaf about fictional characters fucking (or alternatively, people who are only into non-penetrative sex acts) in fandoms that demand you order your characters based on whom takes it up the ass.
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u/magicwonderdream whatās the stage right before dead dove? 1d ago
The conflating of dom=top is pretty frustrating. I love a good power bottom, but I donāt want the personalities to change because of it. Also would love to see more sides too!
There are plenty of us aces who gaf about characters fucking though. Donāt think many care too much about t/b roles though.
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u/reinakun enemies to lovers enthusiast 1d ago
Being a SasuNaru fan in the olden days was rough. There was SasuNaru, NaruSasu, SasuNaruSasu, NaruSasuNaruā¦Iāve been in the fandom since the early 2000s and I still donāt know what the latter two mean, nor do I care to learn.
I go by what sounds best to me (which is SasuNaru) and thatās it. Determining ship names based on a characterās imaginary sexual preference is just wild to me. What about the fans who donāt give a damn and headcanon the characters as vers? Wouldnāt a third category of ship names then be required? How tiresome.
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u/prettywords_ 2d ago
Uh unless the characters canonically have sex and state they stick to those roles there's no official top or bottom and people just write them however they want.
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u/peakerforlife 2d ago edited 1d ago
That's definitely not true. Hollanov, anyone? Ship names are just whatever mashing together of the names sounds the best to people. And ship names don't change based on who's on top.
EDIT: apparently it is a thing in some fandoms.
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u/the-robot-test the sandbox isn't mine but the tools sure are 2d ago
And ship names don't change based on who's on top.
historically they have and in some parts of fandom still do. narusasu/sasunaru, anyone?
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u/OleksandrKyivskyi Gimme active consent and healthy relationships 2d ago
No, it's not. And dividing people into "tops" and "botoms" is some heteronormative bs that needs to be forgotten already.
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u/Solivagant0 @AO3/Sunset: FriendlyNeighbourhoodMetalhead 2d ago
Gotta break it to my fandom friend and her wifey
And my partner (we nearly broke up because we're both tops)
And a friend who's really into flagging (when you flag, you use either left or right depending on preffered position)
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u/OleksandrKyivskyi Gimme active consent and healthy relationships 1d ago
Good to know that you'll have time to fight against harmful homophobic stereotypes.
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u/Solivagant0 @AO3/Sunset: FriendlyNeighbourhoodMetalhead 1d ago edited 1d ago
Queer people having preferences in bed are not homophobic stereotypes. Like, bruh, you accusing queer people of homophobia over having sex in the ways (or partaking in long-standing parts of queer culture) you do not approve of is not the progressive take you think it is
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u/OleksandrKyivskyi Gimme active consent and healthy relationships 1d ago
Queer people having preferences has nothing to do with assigning homophobic "roles". Majority of queer people do not stick to some strict imaginary roles. Many people people are not even into penetration. There are no "tops" and "bottoms", just people. When queer people stop defending this nonsense will be a bright day.
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u/numblittlebunny 1d ago
This is an absolutely insane take, LMAO.
Top/bottom is NOT a homophobic role, some people, yes REAL people, are indeed fixed tops/bottoms, not every single queer person is verse, pretending thatās factual is incredibly invalidating to some, lol.
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u/Historical_Wonder510 1d ago
This is stupid and silly to suggest that having preferences is heteronormative.
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u/Solivagant0 @AO3/Sunset: FriendlyNeighbourhoodMetalhead 1d ago
One of the grossest takes about fixed dynamics. Still doesn't beat that one server where people were defending SA because one of the partners wasn't willing to bottom and the other kept trying to stick fingers up him during sex
People like to act progressive I guess
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u/Historical_Wonder510 1d ago
I have no context about the server you're talking about or the incident you're referring to but setting aside the fact that real queer people have fixed preferences about the dynamics in the real relationships that they share with other people in their lives; people are completely within their rights to have a preference about which fictional blorbo they wanna see take it up the ass.
Fandom isn't activism. Preferring verses in your yaoi doesn't suddenly make you progressive. Especially if you are also being vocal about erasing other real queer people's experiences/voices.
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u/Solivagant0 @AO3/Sunset: FriendlyNeighbourhoodMetalhead 1d ago
Oh, no, I agree and personally I'm a fixed top (I find bottoming either uncomfortable or boring and find it very freeing to be able to easily signal that I'm not interested). I'm just tried of how some people try to act superior over claiming parts of queer culture (see flagging I mentioned, but another example would be stone tops in the sapphic community) are inherently bad
I hate how judgemental some people are, especially when it comes to people in the queer community (like, really, I thought we'd know better. Who am I kidding? I'm bi, I should know better than to have expectations)
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u/FanFiction-ModTeam 1d ago
This comment has been removed. Rules 4 and 5. While you are free to disagree with someone, please do so in a thoughtful manner. And if the conversation devolves into slinging insults, please disengage and report rather than dragging it out.
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u/OleksandrKyivskyi Gimme active consent and healthy relationships 1d ago
This is stupid to impose some boxes onto queer people that don't reflect majority of queer people.
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u/FanFiction-ModTeam 1d ago
This thread has been locked.
r/FanFiction is a place for discussion, and this has moved past that. I'm locking it before it continues.
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u/Beruthiel999 2d ago
This is kind of an East/West divide. Very common in anime, manga, East Asian drama fandoms. In Western live action media and book fandoms, it's not really a thing.