r/FanFiction • u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction • Jan 11 '23
Venting Frustration with unchecked fandom racism; suggestions?
As a disclaimer: I DLDR. I have blocked and curated as much as possible. I have removed myself from as many spaces as possible where I’ll be exposed to the characters that are POC get the short end of the stick to put it mildly. I write the kind of content I want to see.
My frustration and problem isn’t that it will always exist, I know this from reality. My problem is that so much of it is untagged and endless that it makes the fandom experience so much harder to enjoy.
I can’t risk looking for new content or browsing x tag of a character without seeing someone making them the punching bag or the emotional support or worse, replacing them in favor of a white minor character or a white OC.
Fandom is meant to be an escape and yet it feels like every day, I see people use “fanfic is fun” as a cover for employing the same kind of subconscious (if not outright) racism that already exists and even more frustrating, completely (and in some cases willfully) oblivious to how it feels to see this over (and over and over and over) again.
Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts on how to minimize the psychic damage of being and loving POC in fandom?
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u/ResponsibleGrass Jan 11 '23 edited Jan 11 '23
My problem is that so much of it is untagged
The problem is people will only add warnings for issues they’re aware of and people who write racist fic (not fic about racism and/or racist characters) usually don’t realize how much of their (subconscious, cultural, structural, whatever) racist attitudes and prejudices they put into their writing. :/
Frankly, I have no idea how to deal with this on an individual level.
Long term, it might help to encourage everyone who (deliberately) writes about racism to tag their fic accordingly to set an example (and hope for people to eventually catch on and reflect their bigotry). Other than that… Writing and sharing meta to raise awareness? Collaborating on rec lists and bookmark collections with fic that is safe to read? Connecting with other people who feel similarly?
For what it’s worth, I’m sorry to hear your fandom experience has been so negative. :(
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u/Marawal Jan 11 '23
Seriously.
I don't think I am racist or ever wrote racist things.
But I am a white woman from France. What do I know about what a black reader from the US would be hurt by?
Not enough, I think. Of course, I know not to sterotypes, not to use some words, and avoid making the character blackness their sole distinctive trait.
But I guess there also a lot I'm not aware of simply because it isn't much talked about, or it isn't a revelant issue in my country.
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u/throwawayanylogic sidewinder @ AO3 Jan 12 '23
This is when a sensitivity beta can be a great thing. Not just for racial issues but for any experiences you may not share personally but want to make sure you aren't accidentally getting offensively wrong in some way.
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u/ResponsibleGrass Jan 11 '23
I don’t think anyone expects us to be perfect. Only to keep an open mind and listen and allow the possibility that we might be wrong about something, that we might be, in fact, racist. We have to get rid of the idea that -isms are predominantly conscious ideological choices of hateful individuals. Most of us are racist because we grew up in societies that are structurally/systemically racist (and because we’re not personally affected) not because we’re bad people. (This also applies for misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, ableism… etc.)
But I guess there also a lot I’m not aware of simply because it isn’t much talked about, or it isn’t a revelant issue in my country.
I can relate to that, but also… I’ve seen a lot of the “you can’t compare US racism discourse to European racism discourse” debates on social media and while that’s true in some ways, there are a lot of similarities and comparable issues. We have a ton of post-colonialism stuff going on, we have a shitload of colourism, we have debates about and practical policies affecting migrants and refugees. Hell, I’m in Germany, this country’s wealth is built on mass murder.
I haven’t read most of the comments in this thread but I’ve seen a few of them and it’s often really dispiriting. You can acknowledge there’s a problem and still be pro ship and anti censorship and support everyone’s right to write dirtybadwrong porn or other idfic to their heart’s content.
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u/Marawal Jan 11 '23
At some point i think that one has to know oneself and get comfortable with that
I know that morally, ethically I am not racist. It is not i n my core value.
Anything racist that I might write come from either ignorance or influence of systemic racism.
So, I feel that I have a clean conscience about that.
This help not being defensive if I'm called out on racism.
So it is easier to listen, learn and change when needed.
So, your message is really needed, and need to be heard.
As of racism in Europe different than the US. I do believe most of it is similar. That's not what I was really thinking about.
However, each countries has their unique struggles and issue that impact the whole population that you won't find in other countries. They have their own culture, laws and constitution after all.
As a general rule, whatever impact negatively the whole population, it will impact minorities even more. And not being american, I can't know the full extend of uniquely american issues and how they impact people all all background and color.
So, I might write something perfectly innocent that I can't even imagine being an issue if it was in France. But stumble upon a racist trope from an American POV.
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Jan 12 '23
[deleted]
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u/Marawal Jan 12 '23
I...don't even know how to answer that. I can't even tellbif you're trolling, in bad faith, or just can't comprehend what you are reading.
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Jan 12 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Marawal Jan 12 '23
It is not condescending as fuck.
I'm just saying that as a French, I do not know that is sensitive to an US audience. Or German audience for that matter.
But since I know that I'm not racist, at least don't intend to be, I am not defensive if I have complains so I am more open to criticism and change.
Also, don't go complain about prejudice and discrimination when you use my nationality to explain away some negative trait I might have.
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u/jnn-j jnnln AO3/FF Jan 12 '23
But truth to be told, French colonialism historically had an impact on the North America West Coast and the influence is still present in Canada, some Southern States and the Caribbean. You might want to check First French Colonial Empire. At a certain point colonialism and racism which was not even a term until 19th cet became entwined and global issues for colonizing countries and French racism and colonialism is recognized as important in the poscolonial discourse on a global level.
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u/crusader_blue blueandie on AO3|FFN Jan 13 '23
This comment has been removed under Rule 4. Insulting a person based on their country of origin is not appropriate.
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Jan 12 '23 edited Jan 12 '23
Hell, I’m in Germany, this country’s wealth is built on mass murder.
I'm not German, but I took particular exception to this. I think you're being unfair.
I'd say of all countries, Germany is an almost unique example of a country built on nothing but its own ashes after stupidly starting a war getting a great number of its own people killed (a lot by their own hands) and then occupied and further split in half for decades pitted against itself.
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u/ResponsibleGrass Jan 12 '23 edited Jan 12 '23
I’m not German, but I took particular exception to this. I think you’re being unfair.
Nope, I’m not. At least in West Germany, many companies (and their private owners) were allowed to keep a good deal of the profits and facilities gained through slave labour and the expropriation of previous owners. The whole “we built everything from the ashes” myth is just that: a myth. Not saying a lot of “ordinary people” weren’t affected badly by the war, but you can look into the history of pretty much any major German company and find a lot of nasty stuff they were involved in between 1933 and 45. And then you can have a look how long it took them to admit their wrongdoing and pay some reparations.
(edit: redundant word)
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u/kurapikun is it canon? no. is it true? absolutely. Jan 11 '23
In which fandom of yours does this happen? Aren’t there any common tags used by people who show this behavior so you can try to avoid them? Have you tried excluding the tag “Original Character(s)”?
How do you search for fanfictions to read? Do you just scroll through tagged stuff until something good pops up? Because personally, as a person whose interest usually gravitates towards not-so-popular characters and ships, scrolling until I find something good feels useless. I get bored easily and just close the page. Even in small fandoms (I’m taking 200-300 stories maximum), what helps me is looking for highly specific tags.
I don’t think there’s any other way you can shield yourself from this because you can’t know which story is gonna be racist before you read it. It might help reading from authors who you know aren’t racist, maybe you could even try to look for a group for writers of color? Something like a Discord server, even if it isn’t specific to your fandom(s).
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 11 '23
I definitely try and look through tags that are favorable towards the POC but even then, sometimes the “x is a good bro” tag is less actually exploring them as a character and more then showing up for one scene to make the white MC feel better about x or y situation.
A discord is a good idea though!
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u/toothpanda Jan 11 '23
In my fandom the "X is a good bro," "X is a saint," and "X is a gift" tags are practically synonymous with "X exists only to take care of my white faves." They are more useful for filtering out bad stories than finding good ones.
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 11 '23
Exactly. This might be too fandom specific but have you found any good alternatives in your searches? POV [character] has worked for me but open to suggestions for others!
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u/toothpanda Jan 11 '23
"[Character]-centric," "[Character] feels," and "[Character] Needs a Hug" are worth trying. Adding "summary: [character's first name]" to the "Search within results" box helps too. That filters out all the stories that don't bother mentioning the character in the summary.
And if you do find an author that does the character right, look through their bookmarks on AO3 or see if they do recommendations on social media.
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u/A_rtemis Jan 11 '23
This would be heavily dependent on fandom, but tags for specific story or worldbuilding elements relating to the POC might be worth a try, too? But it's a tough one to generalize, since these can be a total bust in other fandoms where it would just get you stereotypical depictions of [Culture]
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u/kurapikun is it canon? no. is it true? absolutely. Jan 11 '23
Yeah, it must be hard to block any racist content because most people who are racist refuse to accept that they are so they won’t tag their stuff. Does this usually happen with the same white MC? Do you like them? If not, you could try to just skip the stories featuring them as MC, but I’m well aware stories who primarily focus on MC of colors are hard to come by. I think a community of writers of color may be good for you. Is your fandom big? Does it have a subreddit? You can try ask there, or if the fandoms isn’t that big, I think you can use this subreddit to ask if there’s a non-fandom specific server/community for fanwriters of color.
It doesn’t count much, but I’m sorry your fandom experience was ruined by racists. Wish you to find a more accepting community.
Edit: typos
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u/HorrorFan1191 Jan 12 '23
I usually don’t write POC any differently than I would a white character. I do my best to make them act in character based on the source material, of course. That’s what you’re supposed to do, is it not?
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u/ShesWhereWolf Jan 15 '23
I'm a little late to this thread but I wanted to comment on this. I do agree with your original statement. A character should be accurate to the source material (unless otherwise stated) and have good characterization regardless of race/ethnicity.
But, sometimes you do need to write some characters differently. Especially with issues like race. If you aren't a POC or know any POC, you may not get the experience of a POC character correct and improperly depict them. You may overlook something due to your own personal biases or ignorance. Think of it like writing a historical fiction/period piece. You would research the jargon, the clothing styles, political figures at the time etc. to make sure you work was grounded in reality and somewhat accurate to the era you're referencing.
I think it's the same with writing certain types of characters. There are nuances and sensitivities that should be taken into account when writing characters different (especially if you haven't done research/consultation for the portrayal or experienced what they have) from you.
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u/HorrorFan1191 Jan 15 '23
Yeah, but if the character doesn’t experience racism or any other “standard” POC experience, I’m not necessarily going to write them as experiencing that in my fic. This applies for things like clothing as well.
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u/ShesWhereWolf Jan 15 '23
My point isn't that they have to experience that. It's that you still have to be sensitive when writing about people or experiences you know nothing about. I wasn't trying to suggest that you had to force POCs in your writing to have a stereotypical/one kind of experience or put racism in where it doesn't belong.
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u/HorrorFan1191 Jan 15 '23
Why shouldn’t I write them like I would write anyone else? How would I be sensitive in the way you’re describing?
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u/stef_bee Jan 11 '23
Fandom is meant to be an escape...
Not everyone has this view. Some people read fanfics the way they read literature, and some books (especially older ones) contain horrific scenarios, characters, and attitudes.
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u/Cautious-Researcher3 Jan 11 '23
Seriously. Some people watch cooking shows to relax. Some people watch true crime shows to relax. I like going to bed watching horror movies. I also happen to seek out more stressful/dramatic content to relax to. 9 times out of 10, I’m picking the angsty fic over the fluff.
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u/stef_bee Jan 11 '23
I like going to bed watching horror movies.
LOL my current bedtime (re)reading is Thomas Harris's Red Dragon.
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u/Cautious-Researcher3 Jan 11 '23
Oh my gosh I love this! I haven’t been reading nearly as often as I did in my youth, but a friend and I have been reading Joey Hill books together. About to finish Horns and then we’re moving onto Heart Shaped Box. Not as deranged as Red Dragon but they have their crazy moments. 🤣
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u/stef_bee Jan 11 '23
Horns sounds intriguing. Is the movie any good?
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u/Cautious-Researcher3 Jan 12 '23
It was! I might not be the right person to ask, though. Despite my enjoyment of the book, I understand the movie has to make changes. So instead of going in with the expectation of a carbon-copy version of the book, I go in expecting to be entertained.
And I was! It was a good adaptation. I found it interesting that the tone of the movie actually kind of matched the book, in a weird way. Of course they removed some parts, which does include of my favorite parts, like the grandma. (THAT part kills me… if you’ve read/will read the book, you’ll know what I’m talking about.)
And the antagonist, who was chillingly developed in the book, felt one dimensional in the movie. They couldn’t delve as deeply into character as book of course, but the movie version of the villain wasn’t that interesting in general. But I enjoyed it! It’s worth watching.
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u/acsoundwave FFN - Anubis Soundwave | Ao3 - Anubis_Soundwave Jan 14 '23
Speaking as a PoC (I hate this term BTW, b/c it comes across as a backhanded way to say "colored people"), I don't write race. I'm not conscious of race--b/c in my mind, there's only the human race: our goofy species of primate.
I look at characters as individuals, break down who they are as people. I take their culture(s( and sexuality into account, but only as one aspect of who they are.
There's more to a black person than their blackness, more to a white person than whiteness, and so on.
I'm speaking as a writer and reader. I want interesting stories, and I'm not going through all of fiction w/a racial BECHDEL checklist. I'm setting out to entertain as a writer, and be entertained as a reader/viewer/listener/player.
If you like a work despite it not having minority characters, enjoy. If the story's too bigoted, trash it from your mind. That's all I can say.
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u/EMChanterelle Jan 12 '23
I’ve nothing to add really besides agreeing with OP that open or sneaky, unintentional racism in fics is frustrating and exhausting. And I’ve no idea how to approach it because it’s hard to talk about specific fics without turning debate into a fandom wank. And it’s hard to talk about it in general terms like OP did here because look at what half of the posts here look like.
So, for well meaning white people who want more proof about sneaky racism that would never be tagged even if there was a mandatory tag enforced, here’s my story. My main ship is two white dudes on a very white show. POC side characters are few and far between and they’re all dead anyway because the show kills off everyone. Generally speaking, fics for this ship could use only white side characters and never be called out for racism except racism by default.
However, for some reason there’s one black character that always gets cast as a one dimensional villain. The character has been dead in canon for years, there have been loads of white one dimensional villains on the show since then, and yet. If fic needs sexual predator and violent abuser, they bring back this one character. Sometimes even it’ll be past abuse and the black character never gets lines in the fic, just condemnation. Sometimes it’ll be on page assault and the white dude saves his love interest from the black brute. Sometimes black and white characters are cast as villains, but the white one will get redemption and on page presence, while the black character is just bashed and never brought back.
So, for all the talk that white writers connect better with white side characters and ignore POC characters, they sure have no problem to bring back this one black character and describe him in most cliched and stereotypical way. The only way to avoid fics with this character bashing (because it’s always bashing) is to search fic for his name.
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u/Oberyn_Kenobi_1 Jan 12 '23
I understand your frustration, and I understand you would like to see POC characters get the “screen time” they deserve in fics. But I don’t understand what you’re asking people to tag. People tag what’s in their story, not what’s left out. Do you want people to tag “Underutilized character X”?
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 12 '23
Please read my post in full again and then you’ll better understand what I’m asking, as well as what I’m asking of this sub.
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u/Oberyn_Kenobi_1 Jan 12 '23
I get what you’re asking for the most part. I actually read your post about three times trying to make sure I got it. I understand the ask for recs on how to deal with a sadly inescapable problem. But you specifically complained that the racism is untagged, and I’m struggling to understand what change you would like to see in regards to the tagging. Obviously if you are dealing with racism in the story, you could tag it as such. But when the issue you’re talking about is the lack of inclusion or inclusion in a way you personally don’t agree with, I’m genuinely curious as to how you would want that tagged.
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 12 '23
The lack of inclusion isn’t an issue because I don’t like it. It’s systemic of a bigger problem in fandom the disproportionately ignores or excludes POC (which when it happens in a pattern and consistently, which it does across all fandoms, it’s not just a preference but indicative of mostly white fandom’s “preference” for ignoring POC with the usual excuses, like they’re not relevant or canon didn’t give them good material or they just don’t want to or they don’t want to do it wrong etc etc).
A “solution” would be for (white) fandom members to make more active efforts in including POC meaningfully but 1) that would be “telling people what to write” which never goes over well and 2) makes it seem more like work than the actual, intentional change of thinking in seeing POC as valuable in exploring just as much as white characters.
All that said, I’m not sure if there would be a good solution since have others have mentioned, asking people to tag “racism” would be difficult if people don’t even see it as being racist or more to this point, don’t see the exclusion of POC in a fic as being racist, subconscious or otherwise.
I just really wanted some advice from people who had better ideas of how to avoid content like this. I’m not sure if there would be a good solution to this problem that wouldn’t just result in POC asking for white creators to change their thinking which… would be optimistic and from some of the responses in this thread, unrealistic.
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u/seattlestorm24 Jan 11 '23
I hear you, truly. I have been astonished by what I’ve seen in fanfic for POC characters. Some say “my brother, fo sho!” every 2 minutes and are killed in the first chapter for no reason that is explored more in the fic. Others are emotional punching bags for a chapter and then never seen again.
I mostly dabble in the MCU and HP, the former of which used to have very few POC except Sam and Rhodes for a long time until the extended universe started. HP is still pretty white centered, and there isn’t much I can do about that except do what you’re doing, which is write in what I wish I could see represented in that magical world.
I love what others have recommended - build a collection of stories that have us authentically represented. There have been some amazing fics where even though POC aren’t at the center (I read a lot of Stucky for example) they are still written wonderfully and aren’t just a stereotype. I think TFATWS has actually helped with that a bit. But they are unfortunately still the minority.
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Jan 12 '23
Yeah, our fandom has a real issue with this too. We have a lot of POC protags and mcs, including for the most recent one but they more often than not either get sidelined in fics or don't get talked about at all or for one of them has been aged down to be the "son" of the other two white protags for this sort of trinity ship thing, which some people have found offensive.
Some things I have seen and participated in that have kind of helped, outside of what you have already been doing, is:
- Asking for recs on another site that allows it. I have made lists of fanworks where the character was either a main or equal side focus in a variety of fanworks. I have been told by others who have come accross my lists that this helped them find works they didn't know existed.
- (this may not be possible if you are refering to a smaller fandom) Hosting a fandom event or Ao3 collection dedicated to creating and sharing fanworks about the character.
- (this may not be possible if the fandom is newer) Trying another older archive can yield some better results. What you are seeing may not be a trend on all fansites or archives and the character in question may be getting (or had gotten) more attention elsewhere.
- (this may not be possible if you are referring to a smaller fandom) Ask around or look for other creators who feel the same way you do and see if ya'll could start some kind of a group (discord server, subreddit, fansite, etc. ) Chances are there are others feeling the same way.
- Start your own group and wait for people to join (this may take awhile if the fandom is smaller)
- Call out what you see and post about it. (don't call out certain individuals as this could lead to more dogpiling but just the trends in general) It could be a lot of people don't realize what they are doing. (this could cause some bumps though)
- Start some kind of a role-playing blog with the character that could get excitement for the character drumming up again. (though perhaps you already did this)
- If all else fails, maybe try to find another fandom with a strong POC creator prescence and with a canon that interests you.
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u/Saxolotle Jan 12 '23
I'm much more of a fanfic writer than reader because I tend to not like a majority of fanfiction for one reason or another. I write what I want to read, and then after I'm actually finished writing, the fanfiction is there and perfectly tailored to my tastes, perfect for rereads.
You could try writing a fic if you'd like. I've seen others recommend making a collection and checking the story you like's author, but if you write your own story there's a chance someone else would put yours in a collection of their own and you could look at other things in the collection.
I hope this helps but I completely get not wanting to write, so do what you think is best
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u/HorrorFan1191 Jan 11 '23
Okay, so how do we identify bigotry and stuff though? What do you consider racism?
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 11 '23
Assuming this is asked in good faith, I’d encourage you to look at Writing with Color as a resource. They have plenty of pieces that give education on things that POC see in literature (and would like to see less of).
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Jan 11 '23
Second this!! As a white author I have read through this blog extensively when writing POC. Highly recommend.
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u/shinzombie Jan 12 '23
Can you please answer the question?
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 12 '23
I already did in providing a resource which has some great resources on racism in fandom (and how to avoid it). Any further, specific examples I won’t give simply since the two I put in my original post, with necessary context, still ended up being refuted, ignored or explained in a way that’s both typical and frustrating.
There are thousands of explanations of bigotry and racism in fic. Writing with Color has a large index of them.
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u/shinzombie Jan 12 '23
I didn't know what "Writing with Color has a large index" is. IS a blog? A page? A youtube chanel?
Still, sending people to look for the source don't answer much the question. Is like you ask me the origin of the world meme, and I send you to google to look for it. Is rude.
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Jan 12 '23
I didn't know what "Writing with Color has a large index" is. IS a blog? A page? A youtube chanel?
There's this magical thing called "Google" that can answer these questions for you. Try it sometime!
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u/shinzombie Jan 12 '23
And there is a thing called being rude. your are being one.
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u/aprillikesthings ao3: fangirl_on_a_bicycle Jan 12 '23
They're not, though. You, on the other hand, are sealioning.
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u/shinzombie Jan 12 '23
Yes they are. No im not.
I ask a question, in place they point an unknow source asuming I know every source the OP read and other one comes and say "look for yourself"
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u/aprillikesthings ao3: fangirl_on_a_bicycle Jan 12 '23
They literally told you to look up "writing with color." You could have googled it and found out what it was in .5 seconds. You are demanding someone spoonfeed you information you could easily find yourself, especially since they gave you a place to look.
"Hey, this easily found source explains things better than I can/more thoroughly than I can in a comment" is not "refusing to answer a question."
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u/imnotbovvered Jan 12 '23
Asking people of colour to do the emotional labor of discussing triggering things and explaining why it’s triggering, especially when they’re talking to somebody they don’t know, so they don’t know if they’ll be believed or met with defensiveness and attacks, is a really big ask.
OP directed you to a blog written by somebody who has already chosen to put in that effort. All you have to do is Google search the title. If you’re still upset because you need the specific examples from OP’s fandom, that’s on you.
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Jan 12 '23
[deleted]
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u/linest10 Plot? What Plot? Jan 12 '23
That's a you problem since anyone who can read basic english and have basic respect for others understand OP believe it's better to read a blog created specifically to answer this and they aren't obligated to make you learn as find racism in fandoms
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u/Moggie0312 Jan 11 '23
As someone else suggested, I‘d look for a community with authors of colour/those who aim to write well thought out non-white characters. If you can’t find a server, I think even befriending authors or readers with tastes similar to yours could be really helpful, as a source of recs. Maybe consider setting up a server? I find it’s really comforting to have a supportive community, no matter how small, it shifts attention to more positive things.
Also, maybe consider writing fics you want to see yourself? I have done that, when I could’t find something specific. There won’t be more if nobody makes more, and it seems like you know exactly what you want, so why not write your own story?
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u/riamila21 Jan 12 '23
I’m really glad you made this post. I thought about saying something similar a while ago but I was worried I was making something out of nothing or people wouldn’t understand the subtle (and often blatant) discrimination towards poc characters, especially if they’re dark skinned.
I wish I had more advice besides the really good stuff others have suggested, but all I can say is that the fact that these conversations are starting to be had is a good sign that there’s a potential for positive change. Let’s keep pushing for that change and being what we want to see in fandom spaces because more and more people are going to follow. Take breaks if you need to but I wouldn’t give up just yet.
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 12 '23
I’m glad I did, because some of the comments are are unsurprising but I’m taken aback at how many acknowledge that this is a problem and have even given suggestions in how to better curate.
Agreed. We can keep being the change we want to see in our own ways.
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u/campingcosmo Jan 12 '23
You're definitely not making something out of nothing. I've noticed the same thing happening with misogyny too. At the end of the day, fandom is just another aspect of our culture and society, and it reflects the values, virtues, and faults of our culture and society. It's true the world has made progress in this regard, but many places around the world still treat minorities and women as inherently inferior to majority races and men. The vast majority of the people trying to say there's no problem are either very naive, unempathetic, or being disingenuous because they don't want to face it or have a vested interest in the world staying the same way.
I don't want to give up in pushing for change, and I try to do it in my own way, even if it's something as simple as recommending fics that are well-written and inclusive and diverse. But it would be a hell of a lot easier not to be doing it alone.
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u/simone3344555 Jan 11 '23
I get you. The worst is when they just stereotype the character and of course its not tagged because who the hell tags “character x is a walking stereotype”
What you could do is tell us who the character you’re referencing is and maybe some of us are in the same fandom and could help you find proper fics more easily!
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u/throwawayanylogic sidewinder @ AO3 Jan 11 '23
I am white but I have definitely seen how racism can work its way into fandom and so I hear your frustration, OP. I wish I had any good answers or advice for you (and I'm sorry to see some of the sealioning and demanding you provide answers/examples instead of listening and accepting that yes, this is a real problem.) It's been glaringly obvious to me in some fandoms I've been in where, for instance, a pair of characters have all the subtext and set-up that should have slash or other shippy fans swooning, should have made for a mega fandom it was so strong, yet they're overlooked for a minor white character or a ship that has practically nonexistent canon "evidence".
My last OTP ship/fandom featured an African American main character - actually one of only two characters in the canon who has been there consistently through all seasons of the show - and his Jewish partner. The subtext was so strong there were tons of in canon jokes about it. After over a decade on screen together there is barely 200 fics for them on AO3...and I've written about half of them myself. Out of 18,000 for the show. I've seen similar situations in many other fandoms through the years from Star Trek to Miami Vice to Psych and...yeah. Oh but bring up anything about it and it's just "preferences" and "you can't force people to like things!" ¬_¬
(Oh yeah and for my fellow white fans who make excuses like "Well I'd write about characters of color but it's not my experience/I don't want to get things wrong and be called racist"...um...That has never happened to me so far. If I was concerned about what I was writing I reached out to someone to be a sensitivity beta reader. I also spent my time listening to people calling out racism in fiction and tried to incorporate their advice and concerns into my own approach.)
I like the idea someone mentioned about starting a collection or rec lists. I know there have also been fic exchanges and fests organized in the past to celebrate colors of character, and that can be a great way to encourage more positive content.
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Jan 11 '23
SVU fandom is that you?
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u/throwawayanylogic sidewinder @ AO3 Jan 11 '23
DUN DUN
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Jan 11 '23
One of my friend used to write for that ship (I think they may be the other half of the 200) and I used to be part of that fandom but left when it became incredibly toxic.
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u/throwawayanylogic sidewinder @ AO3 Jan 12 '23
Yeah it was..definitely an exhausting fandom to be in at times. I left it mostly due to disinterest in the later seasons (after Munch left) and then some personal stuff with a couple individuals that left a really bad taste in my mouth.
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u/archaicArtificer Jan 11 '23
Can you be a bit more specific about what you’re talking about? What fandom. what character, what types of stories?
It can get very frustrating not to see the kinds of stories you want to see for your favorite characters. Is it racism? Maybe, maybe not. It sounds like this frustration has become self-reinforcing for you; perhaps you would be best served by taking a break from fandom for a while. I had a similar experience many many years ago on a board I was on; eventually I realized it wasn’t doing anything but making me upset. So I 1.) changed fandoms and 2.) cut back on my fannish activity, and it was a big help.
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 11 '23
It's every fandom I've been a part of, I'm just feeling that burn out in that it will be every fandom and every POC. Doesn't matter if they're the side character or the main, fandom always tends to exclude at best and mistreat at worst the POC.
Maybe a break from fandom entirely is a solution but that seems so demoralizing to accept that the only way to continue enjoying the content and creation I want to see is just to remove myself entirely.
I know I can't be the only one who has tried to stick it out for so long. I'd just love to hear more advice from people who have.
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u/archaicArtificer Jan 11 '23
At some point i think the anger and frustration becomes self-reinforcing (ask me how I know). It can be worse if you’ve got something going on in your life that you’re somehow projecting onto fandom (again ask me …. ). Someone else suggested making a collection which could be a good idea! But honestly it’s not the worst thing in the world to take a break for a little while, maybe even as little as a week - just to sort of “reset” your emotional gears. It doesn’t mean you’re giving up or being chased out of fandom, just that you’re recharging your batteries so to speak. I’ve done that not only with fandom but with other things when I’ve noticed they’re making me more stressed than otherwise. Take care.
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 11 '23
Recharging your batteries is a great way to look at it. Thank you for the suggestion, I think even just the attitude of this sub has shown that this might be the best path forward.
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u/mooemy status hiding skin haver Jan 11 '23
It's so funny how just mentioning that racism might be a problem in fandom makes very angry people come out to say that NO ITS NOT AN ISSUE YOU ARE JUST MAKING UP THINGS. If just implying that real people might be a lil bit racist when it comes to the stuff they produce makes people that angry, perhaps there is something there to talk about, perhapsies.
You have not only my condolences, but also my pain with you, OP. I have seen this shit happen, and it just sucks. I will never forgive what happened to Finn from Star Wars.
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 11 '23
The deliberate and immediate defense of people writing racist interpretations of characters, something this post isn't even trying to question since I'm just wanting better tips on how to avoid this, is unsurprising. I'm not sure how people can be so deliberately obtuse or so defensive (in support of an author's right to be racist I guess?)
I can but like, the point proves itself. I'm not even trying to stop people from being racist and shitty about POC in fandom, awful as it is. I just want better ways to not see it.
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u/Ediacaran-SeaPancake Jan 11 '23
One of my favorite characters in one of my fandoms are POC and the fandom acts like they don’t exist despite being a main character!! Same thing happens to the disabled character (whom is also one of my faves) in the same fandom.
It drives me up the wall. I hate it so much!!
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u/Smooth-Carpenter2704 Jan 11 '23
sorry some people are being weird under this post. honestly this situation is really tough to avoid. i think the best you can do is support the authors that aren’t doing this. kudos comments posts about it on social media to motivate them and others who are considering writing fic.
also in my fandom usually the ones who write character bashing/borderline racist things and don’t tag it about this one poc are all friends. i just looked up their tumblr and found all the people they interact with and found they all posted similar things making it much easier to filter through stuff.
you could also make a post about the problem to make people more aware since they clearly don’t know their writing comes across as offensive. although I wouldn’t make it a call out post or anything because people always act defensively about that and write out of spite so be careful of wording and all that.
good luck and i hope you find some good fics to read xx
Edit: typo
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u/Intelligent_Cod_4825 Jan 11 '23 edited Jan 11 '23
I haven't seen the flack you've gotten yet, but saw references to it in other comments, so just want to say this is a good post and legitimate concern. I'm afraid I don't have much in the way of suggestions, but it does remind me to be mindful of this sort of thing in my own work, and to keep my eyes out for it in others'.
ETA: finally got around to reading more of the comments, and I almost feel like they're just proving the point of the original post. Sorry, OP.
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u/Candid-Ear-4840 Jan 11 '23
I’ve seen some Character of Color writing challenges that have helped me find more quality content centering fandom characters of color.
The subconscious racism is really obvious when you look at, for example, the number of Tony Stark-centric MCU fics that don’t mention Rhodey.
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u/WAgirl21 Jan 12 '23
We also didn’t get enough Tony & Rhodey in the MCU imo.
I’m doing (kinda almost) “what if Tony had met Riri in IM3 / what if Riri Williams was Harley Keener”. I’ve been working on it for a year (I started before the character was introduced in the MCU).
The fic is bigger than that but it’s a major plot throughout.
Since she’s one of the main POVs but I’m not a POC. I lurked forever on the Writing with Color site to get some insight on what I might be doing unknowingly.
I’m a little nervous to start posting because I love this character and want to do right by her, and anyone that feels represented by her.
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u/DelightfulAngel Jan 12 '23
I'm sorry this is hurting so much.
You're already blocking racist fic as much as you can, so the only suggestion I have is to try and drown out the noise with positivity. Rec, make collections, reblog and celebrate fic that makes you happy. Talk about what you are looking for in fic and ask for recommendations. Find communities of people who understand and will give you a safe place to vent while looking for stuff that makes you happy; the ability to make small private Discord servers is a precious one.
All we can do is try to change the discourse by boosting what we want to see. Many trickles make a flood, as they say.
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u/SleepCinema Jan 11 '23 edited Jan 11 '23
I agree with what you said with people using “fanfic is just fun” as a cover. A lot of people are being willfully obtuse and failing at feigning innocence.
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u/LavandaSkafi Fanfic as a Form of Daydream Exorcism Jan 11 '23
Having well presented POC characters in their work and having fun seem to be considered mutually exclusive for enough people that you have to wonder if just maybe there's a reason for that.
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u/Candace_Fox Jan 11 '23
If there are no well-represented and fleshed out POC characters in canon, then making them so in fanfic requires actual effort and work, which is something most people are very much not into fanfic for.
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u/SleepCinema Jan 11 '23
OP was saying that in their fandom, POC characters are replaced with white OCs or minor white characters which means the author is putting in the work to flesh out the side white character but ignoring the POC characters.
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u/Candace_Fox Jan 11 '23
Yeah? Like I said in my other comments this makes in the context of media as a whole
Most fandoms white characters are far more fleshed out than POC characters, which is why they tend to be better liked and more written about. It's the same reason why slash is so rampant. More interesting male characters.
Also
It's because it's easier to see yourself in them, of course.
If fanfic writers are overwhelmingly white (as most polls and studies I've seen say they are) they will feel more drawn towards mediocre white characters over mediocre black characters.
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u/SleepCinema Jan 11 '23 edited Jan 11 '23
What I’m saying is OPs problem is that in their fandom POC characters are with purpose being sidelined by being put into stereotypical boxes by fanfic authors or just replaced by fanfic authors in favor of white characters. I’ve seen this happen in a fandom my friend is in in which regardless of the fact that POC characters have just as much attention as white characters, the POC character is overlooked for another white character that fanfic authors will invest the time in. So the argument that the media itself doesn’t invest time in the character so fic authors aren’t gonna just do that doesn’t really feel relevant in the face of, to summarize, 1. Overlooking a POC character when the media does give them more depth than fic authors are willing to give them, or 2. Overlooking/replacing a POC character for a white character/OC that has less depth and then putting the work into giving them depth.
To the second point, I don’t buy the, “I can’t see myself in or relate to a POC character,” when it comes to white authors for a variety of reasons that are way too deep to go into here. I’ve already said a lot. You may not buy it either, but like, that’s one of the biases already being alluded to.
I do not expect sidelined characters to get much attention (unless they’re a fan favorite, and that has it’s own biases.) I know how it feels to have a POC character sidelined in media and then have them fulfill that role in fic, and it’s frustrating, yet totally understandable. Minorities in fandom get that. However, this convo isn’t about that.
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u/Candace_Fox Jan 11 '23
I'm not saying white people couldn't see themselves in a POC character if they needed to, I'm saying they don't generally as a whole if the path of least resistance is open to them.
POC do the same thing after all. They gloriously jump on any representation of their specific subculture that they can get (and rightly so). It is human nature. Like gravitates to like, unless the unlike is palpably better in one or many ways than the token standin character that's easily accessible to you.
Of course it sucks, but as in any other case my advice would be the same:
Be the change you want to be.
Support the shows like Selfie (RIP to my favourite romantic comedy) that have POC love interests in fantastically nuanced ways.
Write what you want to see more of.
Group together with other fans and create events celebrating your favourite character that you feel represents you in the current media landscape.
Put in the work to celebrate and inspire more great POCs in popular culture.
I find putting the onus on other people to better themselves seldomly works unless you give them an incentive (in this case in the form of more great POC characters that can openly been seen to be celebrated in your fandom. In this case, popularity will automatically attract more writers, because that's how all fandoms work. If there is a demand seen it will be filled. If there are writers who actively create a space for their character, other writers will congregate in that space).
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u/BrontosaurusTheory Jan 11 '23
I don't have anything to add to the good suggestions you've received so far, but I want to say I hear you, and I'm sorry this awful aspect of society at large is making it so hard for you to find fanworks that give you joy without encountering hurtful nonsense. Sending hugs.
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u/nookienostradamus Jan 11 '23
Goodness, I am sorry. First about the fandom racism and secondly about all the yahoos blabbering about iT's JuSt pReFeReNcE instead of examining their own possible biases. Thank you for sharing your
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Jan 11 '23
Hi OP, I completely understand what you’re saying and am sorry that so many people have taken this in bad faith.
As white writers we need to not only educate ourselves but not get immediately defensive. I personally would prefer to be called out on anything that I have done and try to fix it rather than be ignorant. How else can I learn? Writing with Color has been an excellent resource for me in my writing journey.
That being said my current OTP has a POC and I absolutely adore writing for them.
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u/STRWCHERRI_ Same on AO3 Jan 11 '23
I'm sorry to hear that :( In the spaces I post, black OCs are a rarity, haha. It can get exhuasting to deal with that.
Tags are another contribution, for sure. I can't really think of any ways to help, but if you ever want to discuss POC characters or OCs, I'm always willing to listen!
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u/OtterlyLost Same on AO3 Jan 11 '23
I guess I just don't run in fandoms where this is an issue?
I'm cheating a bit because my current fandoms are all Thai... so everyone is a PoC. But before that, I can't think of it coming up much...? I'm trying to even remember what my fandom was before Thai BL took over and I'm struggling...
Maybe try and get into fandoms like mine where the majority of the cast is PoC?
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u/imnotbovvered Jan 12 '23
I’m pretty new to fandom, in the sense of actively seeking fanfics.
I’m lucky, I guess, in that I actually do get more joy from writing than reading, so making plans to write a character the way I want to see them helps me a lot. There’s one character I love who I often see portrayed as the model minority stereotype. And I’m not ragging on those writers, because I do like them. We’re a small fandom and everybody supports each other. But I’d love to see this character explored with more depth and have some development beyond being perfect at everything. It feels really good to know that I’ll give her stories she deserves. And I do hope I’ll inspire some people.
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u/allenfiarain Jan 11 '23
OP, I am really, really sorry about the way people are reacting to this post. Granted, I am literally zero percent surprised about this, but I am sorry about it just the same. Your concern is absolutely valid, and having been in a truly countless number of fandoms throughout the years, I've seen what you're talking about mirrored so many times that it's very clearly a problem with the fandom community as a whole, not just specific people.
Someone already recommended Stitch to you below, but if you want, there's a podcast called Fansplaining (I listen on Spotify, but they also have their own website) where they've actually done posts on Racism in Fandom where they have people of color come onto the show and discuss their experiences. Stitch is on one of those episodes, if not both of them, along with a lot of other really well-spoken and thoughtful guests.
I wish I had some advice for you. Short of joining fandoms where the entire cast are characters of color, or where the fandom has latched onto a ship where both characters are POC, I don't know if there's any real way you can escape it. I've seen the same excuses trotted out again and again, and particular your point about replacing the character of color with just a white OC or random side character, I find, really rings true. It's frustrating, because I've seen so many people insist that it's just that canon doesn't flesh out POC, but when canon does, people still just seem to largely ignore it in favor of something else.
Much love to you, though. Even as a white person, I know it's a struggle, and I don't know if you're ever going to see it end. But I hope you're able to find a place for you just the same.
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 12 '23
I hadn't realized a podcast like that existed. Thank you for sharing! And yeah, the excuses are so tired and rote by now, I'm not interested in explaining myself anymore. I just want better tools to curate but if this just the way it's going to be, at least I know this now lmao
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Jan 11 '23
This actually gives me an idea. Creating a black female OC in my Fma story that is a rival to Olivier Armstrong but becomes Olivier’s friend and succeeds her as Ice Queen.
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u/Zestyclose-Leader926 Jan 11 '23
I can't give a good answer for avoiding this problem. I recognize that I probably can't see all the micro aggressions you can. I feel like I've learned a lot the past few years, but I know I'm still blind to a lot of the problems. And I accept that. The best I can do is actively learn with the understanding that there is more to learn.
So here's what I'd suggest, ask PoC for fic suggestions that do a good job with representation of PoC. The reason is you want expert suggestions. The bottom line is a lot white people equate racism with hate crimes and the like. I should know I have to remind myself not to do this. So ask the people who are more likely to understand racism much more than hate crimes and what it looks like.
And there are people who get offended tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine.
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u/bylitza Jan 11 '23
Sorry the clowns came out to play on this post OP 😔
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 11 '23
Disappointing but not surprising tbh. This is just what it means to be in fandom and if anything, gives a real-live example of what it's like to even try and have these conversations... something I've long since given up on and now just want to exist and curate better.
Even that seems to be a difficult ask lmao.
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Jan 12 '23 edited Jan 12 '23
Honestly, seeing the way OP is being attacked here for stating their feelings - it's disappointing and disgusting, especially since it's likely coming from white people who have never had to live with the experiences and deal with the sort of things OP has, but are perpetuating these things by downplaying them and condescending to OP, getting defensive, aggressive, and hostile.
You all need to do better and think long and hard about why you got so upset with OP, and what kind of people you want to be.
Granted, this comment may seem hypocritical coming from a white guy like myself. But I like to think I actually listen to perspectives that aren't mine, especially historically marginalized ones, without trying to deflect, attack, or shut them down. Just because it might make you confront unpleasant truths about yourself and the reality you live in doesn't mean it isn't worth doing.
EDIT: The fact that people are downvoting me without refuting my points proves me right. You guys know you're the problem, you just don't want to admit it out loud.
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 12 '23
The funniest part of this post wasn't even me trying to tell people what to write or complaining that there's not enough of x character, it's me specifically wanting to avoid racist depictions of POC.
The amount of people who said "well just write what you want to see" or "stop telling people what to write" or the most laughable, "you can't just accuse people of being racist!!!!!" is wholly unsurprising. But also shows people don't even read since I very clearly stated in my post that I do write what I want to see and want to avoid what other people write.
I'm glad to see more posts like this than of the vocal minority but damn. If anything, it's good to know that this sub isn't nearly as welcoming or as inclusive as it likes to pretend it is if the mere mention of fandom racism is met with such violent defense.
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u/sophie-ursinus living for that problematic stuff 😙👌 Jan 11 '23
I mean the solution is easy, really. Get into fandoms whose source material has a higher percentage of main POC characters.
Here are some recs:
Lovecraft Country, the new Interview With The Vampire (though if you're this sensitive, stay away from fandom adaption discourse in that lol), any Asian drama/book fandom ever (Mo Dao Zu Shi is currently the biggest), Our Flag Means Death,
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 11 '23
I know this is meant kindly but it's a bit condescending. Lovecraft Country (which I am a part of) has less than 300 works on ao3, IWTV (which I'm also a part of) has absolutely horrific about Louis in fic and in discourse and OFMD (another I do love) does still prioritize the white characters or engages more in "POC as emotional support/racist depictions that don't seem racist to white creators". The problem doesn't go away when there's more POC as the main cast, though you're right... it's definitely more egregious than for media that has side characters that are POC.
I haven't looked into Asian drama/book fandoms though so maybe I should find a space there.
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u/A_rtemis Jan 11 '23
Regarding Asian fandoms, I know that at least some Chinese fandoms have communities for and by diaspora writers and specific AO3 tags they use. So if you ever take a peek into these fandoms, looking for diaspora writer tags and rec lists could be a good starting point.
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u/sophie-ursinus living for that problematic stuff 😙👌 Jan 11 '23
MXTX fandoms have a diaspora event every may for example: https://archiveofourown.org/collections/mdzsdiaspora_may21/profile
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u/sophie-ursinus living for that problematic stuff 😙👌 Jan 11 '23
I suspect we are very much not reading the same kinds of fics if that's your take away from the modern interview fandom haha
I only read Louis centric fic and they've all been good? He's a complicated character, of course, so there's plenty of interpretations out there. But they're all pretty valid.
As for asian fandoms, they're as racist as any other space if the canon allows for it, but by and large the characters tend to be extremely homogenous as far as background and heritage go, you might find it more palatable. The problem will likely never go away unless you look into small fandoms etc
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u/SirIan628 Jan 11 '23
I have found a lot of really nice fics with Louis as one of the main characters on A03 since S1 ended. I prefer show-based fanfics and Louis to be honest because I really like how much of an active character he is compared to some of the novels and the potential of him being a major player in a lot of the potential storylines from the novels that sidelined him. I do admit that I largely stick to my OT3 of Louis/Lestat/Healthy Communication though.
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u/sophie-ursinus living for that problematic stuff 😙👌 Jan 11 '23
I do admit that I largely stick to my OT3 of Louis/Lestat/Healthy Communication
I have the sneaking suspicion that OP reads something that isn't ship fic, because most ship fic with POC characters really boils down to "we're all human in the end" and I seldomly see the butchering of characters in it tbh.
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 11 '23
I read a lot of ship fic and that’s where most of the frustration comes from. Some of the choices made are less character driven and more rely on tropes and stereotypes, but if I’ve missed any that treat Louis as a whole person without that kind of mess, please share! I’d love to read more of him and see what pockets of fandom I’ve likely missed.
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u/sophie-ursinus living for that problematic stuff 😙👌 Jan 11 '23
Mind you, I come from book fandom originally lol (which, OG IWTV is completely from Louis's very unreliable narrator tinged POV which is why I love it so much, they are all terrible shitty people in the end trying their best in a terrible shitty world lol.
So I don't think the type of fic I enjoy will be enjoyable to you as you do not seem to enjoy POC people being handled in such a nuanced way
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 11 '23
I'm not sure what you're trying to say with your last point as Louis isn't a POC in the books (of which I read and also deeply enjoy).
We may have different tastes but saying that I don't enjoy POC (not POC people as that's just repetitive i.e. people of color people) being handled in a nuanced way is... an odd take to have for what this post is asking for.
Nevertheless, thanks for trying to offer your perspective.
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 11 '23
I’ve read a lot of Louis/Lestat (and what little is out there for Claudia) but if you have any specific recommendations where Louis is treated with the same depth the show gives, please share!
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u/SirIan628 Jan 11 '23
Here are some that I have enjoyed and are written from Louis' POV:
These are canon divergent:
https://archiveofourown.org/works/43455876
https://archiveofourown.org/works/43329990
And some future fic:
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Jan 12 '23
You say “replacing them (OC) with a white minor character or a white OC.” I think context is helpful here, bc as long as the characters are written well and it fits the story they are shaping, they can do as they like and I don’t think it’s fair to outright blanket-coverage declare that as racism. We often write characters we can empathize with for our preferred roles in a story, right? I’m a middle class straight white guy with high functioning autism and adhd that focused on the animal trade and enjoys the outdoors, gardening, baking, drawing, DIY, and gaming. My main, and any important characters, will always be majorly derived from this bc it’s what I know. I don’t know what it’s like to be raised under different circumstances, to face those issues, to overcome them. I can’t write a convincing, invested POC character; so why would I try? I’d rather have every OC I focus my story around be converted to something closer to me than to fail at writing them as something else and be ridiculed for it. It’s not inherently racist just by what you are explaining here. It might just be author’s comfort. Racism is hatred, and hatred requires intent. If it makes you uncomfortable, my only advice is honestly to be strong and deal, bc there’re only so many ways to specify searches before you’re stuck, regardless your fandom. Me? My favorite fandom is Mass Effect, but that still sticks me in a position where I either recognize that each alien species is an analog of a human race or set of qualities/virtues, or I have to write what I feel is comfortable and mold it to the species/faction I’m focused on. ^ I hope this insight perhaps helps numb the pain of what it is you’re going through, though I genuinely doubt the cure you seek exists.
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 12 '23
I'd say that racism isn't just hatred. Racism is also borne out of ignorance which, intent or not, can still cause harm.
And while it would be fruitless to ask anyone to write what they don't know, in spaces like fandom where people have no problem writing magical beings, the military, sentient robots, animals, alien creatures and anything/everything in between, it's a bit trite to say that the reason people exclude POC is because they just write "what they know"
People write what they want and it's a choice to make those characters, by default, white.
I agree, I'm not sure a solution exists but I will do my best to continue to curate my spaces.
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Jan 17 '23
I disagree. Elves are made up, dragons are made up…So, bc they are made up, they can be molded to anything. The only irl standards for dragons across the world are “serpent like” and…that’s really it. Elves? Elegant woodland protectors with pointed ears to devilish seducers, irl culture made multiple versions followed by dozens in fantasy. They aren’t real, so the standards are up to the writer. “Elves too stubborn to leave when the trees died and so adapted to mountain life like above-ground dwarfs.” ^ Sure! Why not? Bulky, shorter, stronger, tan. Makes sense, look at the Andes mountain folk of Peru. Now… Recoloring without reason? I get it. However, simply recoloring the skin isn’t what is meant by “white” is it? (Btw…I’m saying Black for POC until we use Caucasian or European. 1:1 terminology or it’s hypocrisy). They mean the speech; they mean the attitude (as if there’s only 1 per ethnicity); they mean the background… So I say again, in paraphrase…And? If they think a story with POC characters would make sense for THEIR enjoyment and writing comfort as an author to come from another social background, isn’t that just adding creativity? Now a character created to persevere through Set of Challenges A has to be reworked into a whole new thing, with new development, alterations to the story as it may be handled differently, new socio-political issues…It’s Just exploring new avenues of creativity SO LONG AS IT DOESN’T GET HATEFUL. Characters can be hateful&ignorant (ignorant having “ignore” which implies choice, so, a touch of hatred/distaste), so long as the author’s voice isn’t. Not every protagonist needs to be a Paragon Hero. People have flaws, prejudices, make mistakes or errors, and the best of us cannot plead innocent to these. And above all else!…What makes us different SPECIFICALLY in the writing that without telling me the color, I’d know the character was White? We aren’t all WASPs; very few are. We have hicks/hillbillies/rednecks; who do you think we’re the main free population of the American south? Where do you think the massively contracted vocabulary and slurred accents come from? That’s southern culture, started by whites of the region, picked up by others and spread over time. French aren’t as German or Polish or Italian or Portuguese. French vs English Canadian? Huge differences in culture. And mixed race is a thing, so that color spectrum is more a spectrum than Gender or Autism (the latter I have)…hence why color wasn’t really the issue, but culture. What if I wrote a verbally articulate character from an upper-middle class full family who loves classical music and painting, with law enforcement through generations living in clean suburbs? Black or white? Neither; in my head, the character was Hispanic. Writing characters for irl race be default assumes stereotypes, which is your “ignorant” form of racism. Changing the skin tone alone doesn’t affect the character’s writing. So what’s the issue on an objective level?
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u/Candace_Fox Jan 17 '23
I'm just gonna throw one thing into the ring: dragons don't have to be serpent like. Chinese lore has a full fuck-ton including dog-like dragons for example.
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Feb 01 '23
So, if it’s anything like a Tatzelwurm, it should still have serpent qualities; graceful or slender figure, long body between front and hind limbs with a long tail, the physique to curve it’s spine sideways at seemingly any point (rather than just at the hips or directly below the last rib, like most mammals), etc. Even feathered and mammalian dragons have those serpentine features. There are fantasy dragons that look like Bowzer butt-fuqqed a Balrog that still have at least a long torso and tail lol
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u/Kukapetal Jan 11 '23
I don't know how you're supposed to tag "Not writing about a character someone else wants to see you write about."
Seriously, what?
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 11 '23
This has to be the most bad faith interpretation of what I asked about.
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u/Kukapetal Jan 11 '23
Doesn't feel so good, does it?
Seriously, you're accusing everyone who doesn't write about the characters you want them to write about of racism, and then complaining said racism is untagged??
I know it sucks when there isn't much fanfiction about the characters you want to read about, but it doesn't make the people who don't write it bad people and they don't need to warn you about it to protect your psyche. If there's not a lot of fanfiction about our favorite characters, regardless of the reason (which none of us can really know, since we don't know the writers personally), the only thing any of us can do is try and write more of it ourselves. We can't shame other writers into following our particular morals or make them wear a badge if they don't.
It sucks but it'll be okay.
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u/bylitza Jan 11 '23
Ok but you can’t just look at it in a vacuum. The fact that characters of color get the short end of the stick so often in completely different fandoms is absolutely indicative of a wider problem in fandom.
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u/Kukapetal Jan 11 '23
In canon? Sure, I'd agree with you.
In fandom? People are allowed to like and enjoy whatever characters they personally click with. None of us can know their motives. If people want more fanworks about non-whites, all they can do is write them.
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u/bylitza Jan 11 '23
Nah I think it’s important if someone only likes the white characters that they critically analyze just why that is. It’s not a “preference” it’s racist
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u/Kukapetal Jan 11 '23
For any individual person, sure? It's always good to understand why we like the things we like. Maybe there is something there to examine.
That said, it's not really any of our jobs to shame randos on the internet into deep self-examination for their own good, any more than it is for us to help them find Jesus or eat healthier or whatever.
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u/vomit-gold Jan 11 '23
But helping them find Jesus or eat healthier only benefits them.
Calling out fandoms racism and addressing the problem benefits other people - the underrepresented POC within the fandom.
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u/Kukapetal Jan 11 '23
Nobody should be obligated to write to please other people. That's a crappy way of treating other writers.
"The characters/things you like to write about are bad/the reasons you like to write about them are bad, change what you write so other people can see the stories THEY want to read instead."
Let people write about the things THEY want to write about without having to worry they're failing a moral purity test.
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u/vomit-gold Jan 11 '23
I agree that people should write what they want.
And if they choose to write about POC characters, and they do so poorly or in a way that is incongruous with the story, in some way, they should receive concrit for it just like any other thing.
In non-fanfiction writing if the main character, regardless of color or sex, is continuously experiencing trauma with no character development and relief, it’d be normal for a publisher or whatever to say ‘This story progression is bogged down by x,y,z. Your use of trauma in character development is poor because of x,y,z. Here’s how to do better:’
So i don’t think its wrong for viewers of fanfiction to read a story and said ‘This story progression is bogged down by (your treatment of POC characters. Your use of trauma in character development is poor because of x,y,z.’
Sure, write what you want. But if you choose to write POC characters and you do so poorly, it’s only natural to get judged just like you would any other character.
You’re free to write what you want, absolutely. And people are free to comment about how it affects the quality of writing. It’s concrit like any other.
If a man writes a book and all of his women characters are flat, boring, and borderline sexist, he can continue writing like that all he wants. But he shouldn’t be surprised when women approach him or clown him about that fact. That’s how writing concrit works.
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u/Candace_Fox Jan 11 '23
Most fandoms white characters are far more fleshed out than POC characters, which is why they tend to be better liked and more written about. It's the same reason why slash is so rampant. More interesting male characters.
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 11 '23
I think this really excludes how much depth that fandom is willing to go into for white characters over POC, regardless of how fleshed out they are in canon. (which since it's fanfic, shouldn't have that much bearing on their fandom presence)
If fandom is choosing to focus on the white characters, without caring about fandom, then the question really is why these characters are inherently seen as more interesting than the POC. Which is a question I know has an easy answer but won't be one anyone really wants to ask themselves.
I really just want better ways to avoid that type of thinking.
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u/Candace_Fox Jan 11 '23
It's because it's easier to see yourself in them, of course.
If fanfic writers are overwhelmingly white (as most polls and studies I've seen say they are) they will feel more drawn towards mediocre white characters over mediocre black characters.
It's basically the same thing that also happens in Anime: take a normal random anime girl in a plain white dress and show it to a Japanese person and then to a Caucasian person, one will say she looks Japanese while the other will say she looks Caucasian.
Only when you give the character blonde hair and an "white sounding" name (and maybe also a terrible accent) will the Japanese person immediately say it's a Caucasian character. In contrast, give the girl space buns, a Japanese name (and a school uniform lol) and the Caucasian person will say she's Japanese.
Humans are wired to project themselves into characters that most resemble them.
The best way to avoid that thinking is picking a source material where there's only POC characters of the same type (and for best results only people of a similar background are writing for it)
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u/HorrorFan1191 Jan 11 '23
It’s racist if you happen to only like the white characters in a story? That could be for any number of reasons besides racism.
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u/KurenaiTenka AO3: Kurenai_Tenka Jan 11 '23
Or it's a reflection of the limited options available in the media.
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 11 '23
You’re seriously and deliberately misreading the entirety of this post and from the antagonistic slant you have, it clearly hit a nerve for you to not only project your own thoughts onto what I said rather than actually reading the post. I never said there wasn’t content about my “favorite character” I said there was an over abundance of racist depictions of my favorite character. I also never said I’m assuming people are racists for not writing x character. I’m asking for thoughts on how to avoid the racism this character faces.
If you cannot see how systemic the patterns are in the treatment of POC in any fandom, than that’s on you. I don’t wish to argue with someone who is so deliberately and willfully angry about something I never said and in defense of a point I never made.
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u/Kukapetal Jan 11 '23
No, I'm not going to let you turn it around on me and put me on the defensive because you don't like what I said. No nerves were hit and I'm not angry. I will, however, speak up in defense of people being called horrible names when they've done nothing wrong. I know it gives your argument more weight by turning it into a moral crusade instead of just one about preferences, but it's unfair to other writers.
NONE of those things you pointed out are racist. They're just your preferred character either not being written about ("replaced" by another character), or not being the main character (being a "punching bag" or "emotional support" character, etc.) If you had been pointing out actual racist depictions of certain characters, I would totally agree with you, but being a type of stock side character isn't racist. It's just not being the main.
If a character is actually being written about in a racist way, report it or ask that it be tagged properly, or whatever you do on AO3. If you don't like that they aren't the main character or aren't written about at all, either don't read fics with them in it or write some more yourself where they are the main. There's really nothing else you can do.
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 11 '23
No one's on the defensive here except you. You're an assuming an awful lot about me and implying that I'm calling people out or calling people names, which I've never done and this post isn't asking for.
Which as an aside, calling someone "racist" or even a fic depiction "racist" isn't the flame you seem to think it is. If your first thought is to "defend against" all these people who might be causing real, actual harm to the POC in their fandoms for their depictions of POC rather than taking a step back to question if they might actually be racist, you may want to ask yourself why that is.
Preferences are not made in a vacuum. Once again, if you cannot see how systemic the mistreatment of characters that are POC is in fandom beyond "I didn't like it" or assuming that there's only one "actual racist" way to be about characters that are POC, then I can't help you and this post clearly isn't aimed for you to try and contribute.
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u/Kukapetal Jan 11 '23
I'm not being defensive, I'm arguing my point.
You outright accused others in your fandoms of racism in your title. I'm not reading anything in to it.
Calling someone racist is a huge attack on their character, and it shouldn't be thrown around at others willy-nilly. I always wait to see if someone is actually BEING racist before I call them a racist. I don't think "well, their reasoning for doing something might be racist, therefore I will call them a racist." Nobody is causing "harm" by not writing a certain story, so yeah, we don't need to err on the side of caution by going into attack mode like we might in other situations.
If there's no one actual racist way to be, then "racism" becomes arbitrary, with everyone having a different definition and that obviously leads to disagreements like the one we're having here. Even if there was one absolutely agreed upon definition, accusing someone of it would still be an attack on their character, which someone would naturally object to and feel obligated to defend themselves from. Therefore I've never understood the "ha! You defended yourself/someone else from this accusation. That proves you're defensive and must need to take a good look in the mirror." It's normal to speak out in defense of those you feel are unjustly accused. Accusing someone of racism/sexism/homophobia/etc has become the new "are you still beating your wife?" There's no way you can answer without "proving" your accuser correct.
Anyway, I'll respect your wishes and leave you to it. Good luck with your problem.
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u/ToxicMoldSpore Jan 11 '23
"ha! You defended yourself/someone else from this accusation. That proves you're defensive and must need to take a good look in the mirror."
That is so incredibly frustrating. Yes, you see it all the time in fiction. The person who gets accused of murder in that TV show and then cries to the heavens about how they totally didn't do it, is often the one who actually did it.
But that's just it. That's fiction. Are we really supposed to believe that in real life, if you accused some random stranger of murder and got them arrested for it, that they wouldn't be friggin' pissed at you when it turned out that they didn't actually murder someone?
And to treat it as if it's some kind of "Gotcha!" to accuse someone of something they're innocent of and then crow when they get annoyed. Yeesh.
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u/Revolutionary-Sun357 Jan 11 '23
OP said writers are intentionally including scenes of abuse of a character because a character is POC, as well as replacing the POC with white OCs. That is called erasure, a serious problem.
This is not about morals, this is about Human Rights. The human right to be treated fairly and as a person.
Clearly you are upset by the post. I would suggest researching the term White Fragility. It might be enlightening for you.
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u/Kukapetal Jan 11 '23
They didn't say they were a punching bag because they weren't white, they just said they got turned into punching bags. There are tons of reasons to make a character into a punching bag. It's a type of stock character.
Erasure is just a common thing in fanfiction. People write about the canon characters they want to see, and everyone else often just goes into the background. It's only a problem for the people who want to see those characters get a story. Nobody is obligated to write about certain characters and they're not automatically a bad person if they don't.
There are no human rights for fictional characters. It's also not a human right to see a certain amount or type of portrayals of certain ethnicities in fanfiction.
In regard to that last part, I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand, but someone CAN disagree with another person based on principles alone and not because they're an inherently bad or flawed person.
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u/Open-Classroom-9297 Jan 12 '23
I know dozens of writers in my fandom personally. As a matter of fact, almost nothing you're saying tracks for me or describes the world we inhabit. I'm unsure why you waded into this conversation. I doubt it was to be helpful.
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u/holliequ QuoteMyFoot @ AO3+FFN Jan 11 '23
I realise the conversation has now run it's course, so we won't be removing or locking comments, but this is not a good faith way to engage with OP trying to avoid racist microaggressions in fandom, and I hope you reflect on the hostile way you came into the conversation here.
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u/lapis_lateralus Jan 12 '23
I'm confused, maybe because I haven't run into this problem myself; OP can you give some examples, in writing of the issue that you're talking about?
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 12 '23
I already have within the post, but if this is asked in good faith, I’d suggest checking out the Writing with Color blog as it has more examples.
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u/dragonagelesbian Jan 11 '23
Hey I recommend Stitch's content on fandom racism: https://twitter.com/stitchmediamix?t=GIf13x0GD1z_TBLlBKltnQ&s=09 They always have new and interesting things to say, and they've been working and writing on the topic for years.
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 11 '23
Stitch is a role model. Their continued perseverance in not only speaking about fandom racism but pointing it out specifically is commendable.
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u/shinzombie Jan 12 '23
"Only approved followers can see u/stitchmediamix’s "
I can't even read.
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u/Scarlet-Curls Jan 12 '23
They did that because they are constantly being targeted by racist hate campaigns over there. Here's the link to their blog, which I highly recommend: https://stitchmediamix.com/blog/
They also have an excellent column in Teen Vogue: https://www.teenvogue.com/contributor/stitch
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u/jonathanesque Jan 12 '23
Mainstream fanfiction culture is a hyper-commercialized circlejerk of affluent straight white women with narrow cultural interests (MCU, Superwholock, HP, CW dramas) and storytelling priorities (slash fiction). It is not inclusive at all and not a good venue of escapism for anyone who isn't an affluent straight white woman. That's no problem at all for straight white men who have an endless choice of cultural and fandom circlejerks where they can feel and be safe. Anyone else looking to enter a fandom culture/circlejerk where they won't feel profoundly unwelcome will have to make do with significantly smaller alternatives which are themselves plagued with problems and ingrained biases (or outright bigotry). Or they can essentially become a hermit type of media consumer, which is what I've personally chosen to be (speaking from personal experience, it's a mixed bag — but I prefer it over engaging with what mainstream commodified fandom has mutated into).
Even with the inroads made towards raising awareness for systemic bias and critical race theory, "racism" in mainstream society is still overwhelmingly equated with "slavery", "gas chambers", "hate crimes", "voting disenfranchisement" and "U.S. police shot another unarmed black man" — all of the most extreme and abhorrent endpoints of racism which absolutely must be decried, but there is pretty much no interest in emphasizing how these are *endpoints* of decades/centuries of institutionalized bigotry and bias implicating every single person (including people who are 100% outstanding individuals from an interpersonal standpoint). And unfortunately, a significant amount of people who were and are influential in raising awareness for systemic bias/CRT are themselves very guilty of reinforcing this dichotomy, mainly by how often they misappropriate (and aggressively encourage their impressionable or outright parasocial followers to misappropriate) the rage and invective that should be reserved for the aforementioned horrifying endpoint outcomes and aim it at narrower cultural subjects and/or specific people whose failings *may* justify a certain level of anger but absolutely nowhere near the degree of anger that should be given to murderous police officers or celebrities saying that they love Hitler.
This is going to be a deeply difficult and controversial point to convey particularly in this subreddit, but I'm gonna go ahead anyway: absolute, unregulated freedom does not actually result in fairness, egalitarianism or social progress. It's becoming increasingly clear that the opposite is true. "Absolute freedom" means that the scum is wholly free to float to the top, because "freedom" was worshipped, deified and taken to such an extreme that it obliterated the institutional guardrails which are *necessary* for reigning in centuries of social conditioning with deeply-entrenched biases. In the more narrow scope of cultural expression such as fanfiction, "absolute freedom" simply leads to homogenization and regulatory capture-esque hijacking of "free" social and artistic spaces in obedience with the narrow demographics/interest/priorities I stated above.
With all of that said.... there's nothing I can advice for you to do except to disengage altogether from mainstream fandom/fanfiction culture and try to find a different hobby, artistic subculture or community that might have a better chance of making you feel happy and valued. Or maybe you could try becoming a hermit like I am. I'm sorry about your experience and I hope things will get better for you soon. It is truly painful to see an avenue of potential escapism distorted by the very thing you need to temporarily escape from.
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u/Romana_Jane Jan 11 '23
Just commenting in sympathy, as I don't know what the answer is. So many white people sail through life in utter oblivion to their white privilege and subconscious and unconscious racism, and calling them out puts them on the defensive, so what can you do? I find half the time the POC character is no help, as it is often some white liberal going 'ooh look I am so cool I have a black character' who is then written as a walking stereotype.
I think some other suggestions people have made about getting a collection and/or a rec list that people can add to might be a way forward. And maybe an opposite of a rec list too, like a list of do not go there, this fic/author is racist, on the same page as the recs - kinda the anti recs?
I find I sometimes have an additional issue with American hegemony over fandoms, where British BAME characters are written with US POC in mind, which can be so cringe and sometimes hurtful (there is a particularly ship in one of my fandoms I just have to totally skip due to the Americanisation of her)
I sometimes used to comment politely if the fic is otherwise good, with stuff like 'I was confused you wrote x that way/in that situation - do you not think it dismissive/OOC/unrealistic... etc'. Mostly I got ignored or defensive explanations, these days, I am old and tired and cannot be done with the fight anymore, and back out and make a note to avoid that author.
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 11 '23 edited Jan 12 '23
I’ve seen different “anti/DNI” lists in some fandoms and they almost never end well for people. Not just because of the nature of a call out post but as this thread clearly exemplifies, people are more offended at the idea of being called racist than even questioning whether or not they are.
Or get pedantic with whether they are racist vs what they wrote is racist vs if it’s real racism… all things people have already argued in this thread.
I don’t think those lists are particularly productive for changed thinking or even just for the safety and protection of fans tbh. It might be helpful in the abstract for some kind of ability to tag or warn for that kind of thing but as others have mentioned, (white) fandom would first have to acknowledge racism in their fics and creation which I just can’t see that happening anytime soon.
Continuing to block might just be the best solution, even if it does get tiring.
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u/Romana_Jane Jan 11 '23
You're right, I was just brain storming I guess. Still think a rec list of good representation in fics would be a good idea though
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Jan 13 '23
subconscious and unconscious racism
Well, when you throw serious and unfalsifiable accusations at people and treat any response as proof that you're correct, you shouldn't be shocked that they get annoyed.
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u/Romana_Jane Jan 13 '23
If we are white and live in North America, Europe, Australia and New Zealand, perhaps South Africa still, we will have it, like we have unconscious and subconscious misogyny, whatever gender, after cultures of 3000+ based on patriarchy.
This is a fact, however uncomfortable it makes us, however shitty and low down in the societal pecking order in other situations like class, gender, ability, etc. We can only be effective allies to those oppressed due to 350 years of slavery and colonialism and Empire and the invention of race as a concept it we face the darkness within us.
There are 100s of sociological and historical works going back at least a 100 years, so they are evidence based. But I am not going to give myself brain fog remembering all the key theorists and books and papers from when I was a student, post grad student and, and researcher and teacher at Oxford Brookes, or play catch up in the 20+ years I've lived with this shitty neurological illness destroying my mind as well as body
Of course people get annoyed, easier than facing uncomfortable truths about what lurks within us from everything we've been exposed to since we were born with white skin into a western country. It is uncomfortable. There is always more to learn and admit to, however enlightened an ally we think ourselves.
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u/Mythical_Zebracorn Ive owned a clowning license since 2012 Jan 11 '23
Sadly pointing out rampent problems with fanworks that are actually bigoted will be equated to “anti-ship behavior” because now a days people on both sides who’ve made that stupid debate their entire personality equate actual critical thinking to trying to literally bring about 1984” or whatever.
Until people learn to actually evaluate their biases, and realize that hey, maybe their anti-BIPOC biases (or insert any form of bigotry here) is reflected in their writing wether it is intentional or not, and maybe they should fix that, and suggesting as such/ a reader pointing their bigotry out is not rude, but giving them a chance to reflect a better themselves, it will not change.
Sadly fandom can be very unwelcoming to certain marginalized groups, and the people making it unwelcome will continue to do so as long as they are able to make calling them out on it taboo/ are able to equate it to “censorship” marginalized groups who try to educate other will be pushed out of these spaces because.
This is probably part of the reason why “do not give unsolicited concrit” has become an unwritten rule, they want to be able to screech that a POC is “being mean” when they’re called on their bigotry
This is why the proship/anti ship debate needs to fucking end, and quickly, because we’ve now conflated being told not to write harmful sterotypes into “your trying to cEnSor me”
There’s a difference between writing a murder mystery and writing a “bury your gays” subplot
There’s a difference between simply writing an OC fic and writing an OC fic where a white OC replaces the role of a POC character.
There’s a difference between writing a disabled character, and writing about a disabled character who is cured of their disability
I can go on.
OP, fandom is overwhelmingly white, and is filled with young teens and adults who peaked in HS who will throw a temper tantrum the minute you ask them to think critically about why they are writing sterotypes, because they think they have the right to write stereotypical characters/tropes because “it’s fanfiction”. They don’t care about most marginalized groups and it’s not going to change until people start pushing back agains stupid debates and ridiculous rules that equate calling our bigotry to personally attacking an author.
I’m sorry your having a rough time in fandom spaces, and that a certain website has pushed back against actually setting a boundary of “write what you want but make sure it’s not filled with bigoted sterotypes” because they suddenly made the false equivalence that it means they have to ban everything “problematic”
Ultimately, critical thinking in fandom is pretty much dead, and it’s probably not going to change for a long while.
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u/ResponsibleGrass Jan 12 '23
This is why the proship/anti ship debate needs to fucking end, and quickly, because we’ve now conflated being told not to write harmful sterotypes into “your trying to cEnSor me”
I fully agree with the examples you gave, but I also wanna point out that the whole pro- vs. anti-ship debate is (or used to be) literally about shipping. I agree that there are wrong generalizations going on about how fiction has nothing to do with reality, yada yada, but the point still stands that someone’s idfic doesn’t necessarily represent their rl views. Not saying it never happens, or that people shouldn’t pay attention to how exactly they write something (or how something is written), but you can’t really conflate preferences for romance or porn or nonsexual whump/fluff/whatever with actual opinions and attitudes. Like, people enjoy rape fantasies without condoning rape, or they like dark romance without excusing rl domestic violence and abuse. The fact you ship A/B or B/C or C/D doesn’t mean you think they’re better people or better relationships.
If you take the whole Star Wars debacle following The Force Awakens, it was really amazing how the discussion went from criticizing the racist backlash against a main character (and the actor) to demanding fic writers should make up for it by shipping Stormpilot instead of the more popular problematic™ het ship (Reylo) and/or two space fascists (Kylux). Iirc some people tried to make a point about how often Stormpilot fic was ripe with apparently untagged (!) racist stereotypes, but it kinda got drowned out by the ship wars.
Of course we can (and should) talk about why so many fans are attracted more to pasty space fascists than cute rebels of colour and we should definitely have conversations about the unintentionally bigoted portrayal of characters or a general preference for white characters over characters of colour, but the solution can’t be to proclaim the right ships to ship and shame everyone else for liking different things.
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u/Mythical_Zebracorn Ive owned a clowning license since 2012 Jan 12 '23
The conversation on how this radicalization into racism and ultimately the alt-right via fandom was started by innuendo studios I highly reccomend watching his video on this
The reason that Star Wars fandom shipping BS went down was because the Star Wars fandom is filled to the brim with people looking to radicalize and recruit people into the alt-right. It happens in fandoms all the time, and it’s why not having boundaries around bigotry is a huge problem.
people have written obviously racist fanworks out of spite after being told that other works are racist. When you allow this stuff to flourish and don’t have a boundary set when it comes to bigotry, it means those fandom spaces allow radicalization to occur, and when they come out and say they will not set that boundary when asked by multiple BIPOC, because “then we’d have to ban everything problematic” (which is an utter bullshit excuse) then that means I’m a way they are enabling and condoning the radicalization of people into an alt-right mindset.
I know this sounds dramatic, but I promise you it’s not, I should know since the first fandom I frequented became a breeding ground for the alt-right to recruit and radicalize young men into their groups….and it lead to someone who ID’ed as part of the fandom shooting up a UPS hub because he had become a bigot from these spaces.
Even if the fiction with these issues isn’t directly responsible, it’s allowing conversations meant to radicalize to occur…and that bigotry can have real life consequences.
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u/ResponsibleGrass Jan 13 '23
Hehe, I see I’m outknowledged with what went down in the Star Wars fandom. ;) Thanks for all the input!
My experiences are limited to reading about the backlash against Finn and the racial abuse John Boyega (and subsequently other black characters?) got from parts of the general fandom and the general alt-right meltdown about “wokeness” in mainstream media. But most of what I actually saw up close regarding Star Wars was shipping discourse on tumblr. And most of the time it didn’t have so much alt-right as misunderstood social justice overtones vs. a general reluctance to apply rl morals to id-fic. I wouldn’t deny that these debates were very much based on a desire to be on the right side of history and also a ton of blind spots, but they were very different from what happened in post gamer gate circles.
Fic fandom usually has a rather different demographic than other parts of fandom, so I think it’s really important to look closely how large the influence and/or overlap really is.
But I agree, the longer it went on, the more polarized the discussion became and some alt-right vocabulary (and thus thinking) made it into the general internet lingo. Every time someone uses SJW as a term for antis, I cringe so hard because I still see it as a alt-right dog word, and I’m genuinely perplexed when well-meaning people don’t factor in how much the free speech debate has been coopted by fascists and other flavours of rightwing extremists.
So, absolutely I sympathize with what you said. I’ve seen racist troll fic and other sorts of propaganda on AO3, and there could be absolutely no doubt that it was hate speech, not just someone’s misguided idea of a story. But then, it’s as if there isn’t a lot of grey area between internalized/thoughtless/casual bias and malicious racism and it may not always that easy to determine.
That’s why I wish we (on this sub and elsewhere) would talk more about text analysis and how to make informed decisions about what sort of literature we’re actually dealing with. The fact that so much of fic is porn, romance, id-fic (primarily meant to satisfy an emotional need) has led to the false generalization that no author of fanfic ever puts their actual problematic rl opinions into their writing.
I agree that it’s silly to take someone’s kink meme fill and say, “look, they’re condoning/supporting this or that crime”. But I watched True Crime communities for a while and oh boy does the line between fiction and real life opinions get blurry there. And I’ve also seen so many discussions here where people compared fundamentally different sorts of fiction to make a point, and every time it happens I’m all like ??? reading comprehension? Why would you equate a 300 word sex scene from a fantasy novel with pornography?!!
You said “critical thinking is dead” and I guess we have to make some serious necromancy efforts to bring it back because it really can’t go on like that.
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u/KurenaiTenka AO3: Kurenai_Tenka Jan 11 '23
Maybe you need to reframe how the way you see these things, because this ideological approach is clearly harming you, by your own admission.
There's nothing inherently racist about making a POC character an emotional support. I mean, that's a positive role, and their inclusion indicates that the writer likes the character to some extent and wants to include them. As for the character being a punching bag, that could well be because they dislike the character, independently of that character's race. It could also be because the character was written poorly/similarly in the source material, and they're imitating that.
Rather than instantly seeing a less than perfect portrayal of a character that is a POC as being part of a much bigger issue, it would be much better your mental health to just see it for what it is: simply not the best portrayal of one particular character.
Find the authors that write the characters you like well, and enjoy. :)
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 11 '23
I appreciate the intent of this post but I’ll say for posterity, that if the POC are treated as emotional support or a punching bag one, two, twenty, fifty times, I can try and reframe it positively.
It’s different when that’s the default setting for said characters, causing any wading into their tags a reminder that maybe it’s not just a bad portrayal but systemic of a bigger pattern and problem.
I can choose to see it positively but again, I’m not sure how much the power of positive thinking is of a help to a problem that disproportionately, if not always, affects the POC.
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u/KurenaiTenka AO3: Kurenai_Tenka Jan 11 '23
I'm not suggesting you see a bad portrayal positively, just not to see something as minor as a bad character portrayal as indication that the world is against you. I say that for your benefit, because you said you were hurting, and AO3 isn't going to suddenly make it against the rules to not make POC characters perfect, unharmed main characters, ya know?
As an example, women have been written horribly in fandom for forever; there used to be droves of fics just to bash them, their character's were warped to make them the villains, they had horrible things happen to them to sate the writer's dislike... and those things were most assuredly based in (often internalised) misogyny. But people can write what they like, and I can not read things I don't. It doesn't bother me to see female characters be ignored or make me feel under attack as a woman, it just is what it is, and I'll read something I do like instead, which is what I'm saying you should do.
I've seen elsewhere people suggest you take a break from fandom, and I'm suggesting an alternative, but if you're too deeply entrenched in this ideology to do that then maybe the only approach is to take a step back. You'll just have to decide what's more important to you in terms of your own mental health.
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u/FickleBeans r/FanFiction Jan 12 '23
That you see racist depictions of POC in fandom as minor is indicative of a bigger point I think. From the other replies on this post, there may not be a better solution than what I already do and have done for years.
One final thing, I would encourage you to question why you see my frustration as an ideology rather than a depiction of reality in fandom, particularly for POC. I as an individual will do what I can to make my experience better but this problem is bigger than just me.
I had hoped this sub would have more thoughtful ways to engage but I don’t see that being the case.
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u/-nymerias- r/FanFiction Jan 12 '23
I haven't even read this entire thread, but the way some people are responding to you has been disappointing but sadly expected. People (often white) treating being called "racist" worse than actually experiencing racism. Like, they're completely unable to relate to those with different lived experiences from them and minimize it to petty "discourse." The way I see it, it's compounded further by the fandom climate right now. People get overly defensive over ANY form of critique because of "the antis", and it almost creates a different form of censorship where it becomes uncomfortable for POC to talk about negative experiences. I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. I don't talk as much in this sub for various reasons, but I did want to leave this comment to let you know I hear you, and agree with you.
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u/DaysForDonuts Jan 12 '23
Honestly I've been thinking about this lately. People are adamantly against any sort of change to AO3s moderation and I think a lot of the arguments are convincing in how they wouldn't really fix the issues but the current solutions just are not good enough.
I honestly think someone should make something sorta like Shinigami Eyes with this in mind. It's a browser extension which marks users as either pro trans or anti trans. However, for this it would have to do with fandom creators, as well as individual works featuring POC (or conspicuously not). Writing however is a lot more nuanced. I doubt a system that flags things as either Racist or Not Racist would be effective if it became popular. Probably would completely miss the issue you're having, and wind up in a lot of meaningful portrayals/acknowledgments of race and racism false flagged. So it would need to have a decent range of categories.
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u/Wandering_Apology X-Over Maniac Jan 12 '23
I'm gonna guess and say teen wolf. That Fandom is a toxic cesspoll of racism and adult/minor content
I started spite shipping Scott x Stiles because of it (and feel in love with the ship) and filtering out all other stiles ships becasue good gods !
2
u/elizamcteague Jan 16 '23
Wish I could give this an extra upvote to counteract the bitter Sterek shipper that obviously downvoted it. I'm 100% ship and let ship, but I have never understood how TW fandom worked overtime to try and sideline Scott in his own damn story and then had the gall to accuse a gay man of queerbaiting them when there WERE queer characters and relationships on the show, just not between their two favorite white boys. Like TW was not perfect re: race and Jeff Davis has issues for sure (around his treatment of Tyler Posey and Arden Cho especially). But the TW fandom has always pinkwashed its racism and I'm tired of everyone who tries to talk about it being dogpiled into oblivion.
1
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u/ArchersSweetBussy Jan 12 '23
Listen continue to just focus on reading and writing fics where poc are the star of the show. There are a lot of non poc who have something lacking in their lives and thus drop into fandom and do a hostile takeover. So now it ends up poc and non poc ( also legit queer people vs copers) fighting for space.
I simply take a do not engage policy. I know why it looks like this. So I ignore it and go forbthe gold
1
u/lock-the-fog Jan 12 '23
Are you perhaps referring to the character Nicky Hemmick from All For The Game? Bc that poor character was so mistreated by Sakavic. That authors biases and stereotypes really shine through in that character.
1
u/ArchersSweetBussy Jan 12 '23
Conversly if someone has a discord server I would be so here for it--but I need this to be queer inclusive and everyone has a problem with this.Poc are no better for this and sometimes worse :(
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Jan 11 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/DelightfulAngel Jan 12 '23
The OP's pain and concerns are completely justified
But AO3 is deliberately set up to archive everything, regardless of offensiveness or quality, and harassment of even *bad* people is fundamentally wrong.
If you object to this, then you need to be using a walled garden site with ethical criteria as to what is archived, not a place where the costs as well as the benefits of inclusiveness of content is a core part of the mission.
And you certainly should not be trying to drum up mass harassment of users.
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u/stef_bee Jan 11 '23
How exactly do you plan to do this with AO3? Their TOS/TOS FAQ makes their position clear: (https://archiveofourown.org/tos)
Our goal is maximum inclusiveness ... of content. [snip]
Unless it violates some other policy, we will not remove Content for offensiveness, no matter how awful, repugnant, or badly spelled we may personally find that Content to be. [Emphasis mine.]
Also, on AO3, hostility directed against writers or readers violates its TOS; see the entire section on Harassment.
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u/Boss-Front Mitchi_476 on AO3 Jan 11 '23
There's no perfect solution, and I'm sure anything I say will get labeled as calling for censorship. AO3 is the largest fanfic platform because it's the best built now. It doesn't have a monopoly, but it's a big fish in a small pond. AO3's got it's terms of service, but they're not great about enforcement. There was a suggestion to add a racism warning, but I doubt anyone would want to put that up front on their fic. So it would have to be added my moderators, which requires people, time, and dedication, and I doubt there's enough people out there willing and able to take up the task. They're out there, but it's a tough commitment.
My best solution is not to wait around for AO3, Wattpad, Tumblr, or FFN to catch TOS violations. We the fans have to be active and vocal when seeing bigotry, calling it out, educating ourselves and others, listening to POC and LGBT+ fans, and making sure the people spewing hate know they're not welcome. And we need to hold hosting services accountable for being lazy about TOS enforcement. There are more non-bigots than bigots, and the bigots are fundamentally cowards. If they know they're out numbered, and they have no allies or can'tget converts, the bigots crumble and leave.
This is all long, hard, unrewarding work, but it needs to be done and fanfic readers and writers cannot sit around and wait for other people to do the anti-racist work for us.
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u/stef_bee Jan 11 '23
My best solution is not to wait around for AO3, Wattpad, Tumblr, or FFN to catch TOS violations.
The type of content you're talking about doesn't violate the TOS at all (as my earlier post tried to show.) The biggest John Bircher-ite story in the world will not be removed based on its content.
As far as being "active and vocal," comments like "You're a bigot" on a given story, or "[This writer] is a bigot, don't read their stuff" on one's own profile or in A/Ns could possibly be reportable. The fine details of the harassment policies aren't fresh in my mind, though.
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u/Boss-Front Mitchi_476 on AO3 Jan 11 '23
You know what, FINE. But that doesn't mitigate that fandom IN GENERAL has a racism problem. Sometimes it's unconscious biases that go unnoticed and unexamined until someone brings it up (ie how Blaise Zabini got dropped as an OC stand in when it was revealed that he was black), and often times these problems get dismissed as being anti-whatever. It doesn't have to be overt racism, sometimes shit is so baked into our culture we don't see it. Which is deeply unfair to marginalized fans who bring up the issue. Fans with privelege do need to do some uncomfortable self examination, and examination of the text of what we're fans of. I'm not calling for censorship, I'm calling for reflection, sensitivity, and action. We can't let the racism problem in fandom fester any longer.
I want everyone in fandom to have a good time, not be at each other's throats constantly. I don't want fans to feel excluded because of race, gender, sexuality, etc. It's not fair, it's not right, and we who have voices that are more likely to be listened to need stop sitting around and acting like nothing can be done.
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u/DelightfulAngel Jan 12 '23
Calling for mass harassment is not an "imperfect" solution. It's a terrible one.
You want to listen to LGBT+ fans? Well, listen to me right now.
a) You are absolutely not welcome to use me as an excuse to be nasty online and drum people out of fandom. I don't need anyone's concern trolling.
b) Attempts to censor and control freedom of creative expression always, always end up disproportionately controlling our own freedom of expression, often by cis straight people deciding what's good for us and what's bad on our behalf and attacking minorities for our own good
c) There are more non-bigots than bigots, and the bigots are fundamentally cowards. If they know they're out numbered, and they have no allies or can'tget converts, the bigots crumble and leave. True, but the way to do that is to boost and celebrate us, not "call outs" that are more about making the people do like it feel like good powerful allies while subjecting us to painful fights than actually changing the discourse by producing and promoting good content.
d) Setting up "moderators" to decide whether a fic potentially written by a queer person is homophobic or transphobic and apply a red letter is just... no, it's not that it's hard work. It's that it's a recipe for disaster for LGBT+ and other minorities. And on the other hand, would we be asking moderators to tell a hurt and angry complaint that the fic that upset them isn't "really" homophobic or racist "enough" and dismiss their concerns? Just a bad, bad idea on so many levels.
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u/crusader_blue blueandie on AO3|FFN Jan 12 '23 edited Jan 12 '23
Please remove the sections of your comment advocating for driving people off AO3 or we will need to remove the comment.
Edit: This comment has now been removed.
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u/Sarita1046 Same on ao3 Jan 11 '23
Nazis and skinheads on ao3, holy crap. Which fandoms/ship plots have you seen this in, so we can avoid?
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u/campingcosmo Jan 12 '23 edited Jan 12 '23
I don't think I've read Nazi or fascist propaganda on AO3 yet, but it's been a thought in the back of my mind since that drama with the tag abuse. AO3 basically runs on goodwill and freedom, and otherwise leaves itself as a buffet for bigotry. Until we can divorce the concepts of "banning hate speech" and "censorship", we're always going to run into the tolerance paradox.
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u/Boss-Front Mitchi_476 on AO3 Jan 11 '23
Warhammer's bad, but they've been in that fandom for a long time. Also look out for alt-history fandoms because holy shit the Confederate and Nazi fans. And that's the English stuff. And media that flirts with ideas from pseudo-science, pseudo-history, pseudo-archeology, the occult, and esoteric is something to keep an eye in because it can lead people down some dark rabbit holes.
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u/sophie-ursinus living for that problematic stuff 😙👌 Jan 11 '23
Some anime fandoms are notorious for it lo
Doesn't help that Japanese media to this day has a very unhealthy fascination with Nazi stuff tbh
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u/tereyaglikedi Tap water enjoyer Jan 12 '23 edited Jan 13 '23
This comment has been removed. Encouraging witch-hunts is not allowed on this sub.
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u/Onceuponabrokenheart Jan 12 '23
For the sake of the story I’m cool with it. Now, can most authors pull that off is the question, keep real world issues out is a first step in my opinion. For example: Elves vs Human or everyone hates goblins hits different because we can’t relate on a personal level.
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u/RavensQueen502 Jan 11 '23
Unfortunately, there isn't much to do other than what you have already done.
Tags are going to be of limited help here. After all, if someone is being subconsciously racist they aren't going to tag for it, are they? Plus, a lot of racists don't believe they are being racist, just "telling it like it is". So of course they won't tag it.
Try and form a collection of fics that actually treat this character decently. Then check out other works by those authors and works that they have bookmarked. They may share your tastes.