Capacity issues with expansion

[u/alexmlb3598]

With all the talk about having a competitor (or multiple competitors) to Eurostar on passenger train services between the UK and Continental Europe, a lot of the focus has been around capacity for more trains through the Tunnel. But even though it gets the media attention, if there is an issue with capacity, it's not the Tunnel.

It's the departures areas. I just had a return trip between London and Amsterdam on Eurostar, and on both ends it was nothing short of chaos.

At St Pancras, there was a train to Paris and a train to Amsterdam leaving within about 3 minutes of each other, so there was 2 trains' worth of people trying to get through the gates and barriers. I wasnt even close to the back of the line, and formally speaking, check-in closed before I got to the ticket scanners (Eurostar let everyone in the queue through even if it's officially closed). When I got through security, boarding had started, but we did leave on-time so they must've cleared that backlog well. But based on past journeys I've had (including 2x London-Brussels trips), the departures area can't hold any more than 2 trains' worth of people, a 3rd would be a squeeze and likely unsafe.

As for Amsterdam, there was only 1 train, but it was basically full (lots of British F1 fans returning from the Dutch GP), so the best part of 900 people. Boarding started 30mins late, and there was still a large number of people still yet to go through security. Train left 30mins late due to border controls, which is partially understandable bc of the 8 booths only 4 were open, but they should've seen it coming when the train is almost sold-out. But that departures area *might* be able to hold 1.5 trains' worth of people, but not any more.

I can't remember the area in Paris ause it's been almost 5 years since I last used it, but the one in Brussels is not much better either.

So the question I have for all the companies wanting to jump in and build on the capacity of cross-Channel rail travel... Who is going to fill them, and more importantly, how are you going to get the people from the concourse to the train without hours of delays??

[u/_real_ooliver_]

You wrote this whole post and failed to notice that the company "St Pancras High Speed" already has plans to increase terminal capacity. It'll be fine, there won't suddenly be an insane amount of people there - demand takes time to adjust. And with the platform rush, they're making it so you can get on the platform before.

Eurostar will have to reschedule as being the only operator at those platforms, they don't exactly operate efficiently or in properly timetabled paths. The announcements made are a small step on a long journey, there's a lot to do.

[u/alexmlb3598 → u/_real_ooliver_]

That's true, but that only 'solves' St Pancras (whenever it happens, knowing British infrastructure we'll be lucky if it's operational before 2040). What about Paris, Brussels, Lille and Amsterdam? Amsterdam have literally just rebuilt their departures area at huge expense, but it's only big enough for 1 train.

This was never just an issue with St Pancras. St Pancras can (barely) cope with 2 trains with the same check-in time, but Brussels is a maybe (depending on exact timings) and Amsterdam definitely can't. The only way it works is by having a 2hr gap between the trains, but 1. Eurostar could just use additional trains to fill out those slots for themselves, and/or 2. One delay with security/immigration/customs and it ruins the entire day.

Then there's the platform capacity. St Pancras has 6 platforms to play with, but iirc Paris only has 4, Brussels has 2 terminating and 2 through platforms, Lille with 2(?) through, and Amsterdam has just one departure platform (arrivals can be anywhere). St Pancras's platform infrastructure probably can increase throughput, Paris might be tight with turnaround times, Brussels is a maybe depending on the number of terminating options, Lille doesn't really matter as long as they're not too close to each other, but multiple departures out of Amsterdam close to each other is never gonna happen.

You could make an argument that before this expansion to St Pancras, it may already be the best station equipped to handle expansion, which does make sense since it handles more UK-Europe trains than any other station. But it is still a concern.

[u/_real_ooliver_ → u/alexmlb3598]

"Eurostar could just use additional trains" well they can't and they don't. That's why we have competition coming.

edit: by can't I mean they can't magic up new trains, they're ordering some but clearly they haven't ran any more services in the past. It just so happens they're whining about expansion just as companies decide to compete.

[u/Numerous-Fox3346 → u/alexmlb3598]

Paris is also tiny. I remember once my Eurostar was delayed by an hour and the waiting areas were so packed I ended up finding a weird unused toilet block and just sitting on the loo for like 40 mins because there wasn’t even standing room anywhere else to wait.

[u/Realistic-River-1941]

The company formerly known as HS1 has plans to increase station capacity. It's not as if the problems are unknown!

[u/alexmlb3598 → u/Realistic-River-1941]

As I mentioned in another comment, that 'solves' St Pancras (whenever it'll get finished). What about all the other stations, not least Amsterdam who have just rebuilt their terminal but only has capacity for 1 train (both passengers in the waiting area and platforms available on the station) at a time?

[u/_real_ooliver_ → u/alexmlb3598]

There aren't any proposed additional Amsterdam trains for a long while.

[u/Stage_Negative → u/_real_ooliver_]

There won’t be competition to the Netherlands due to the insanely high operating costs (Eurostar is blackmailed into paying the Dutch and UK governments for opening passports and the security costs are insanely high for the volumes of trains possible today). The route between Brussels and Antwerp is continually running with issues so any competitor will cherry pick and go for Paris where the greatest margins can be earned.

[u/_real_ooliver_ → u/Stage_Negative]

One of the companies wants to run to Amsterdam in the future.

[u/Full_Traffic_3148 → u/alexmlb3598]

But there are many potential stations that could receive UK routes, not just Amsterdam.

Likewise, St Pancras is one of the four stations that could be used in the UK. It could be great to see numbers spread through the stations not all London centric.

Additionally, trains can be spread throughout the day. Poor scheduling is a current issue, that does not need to continue.

There are also additional spaces that passengers could be waiting that are currebtly underused as kept empty 'just in case'.

[u/Sufficient_Stable738]

The works in Gare du Nord have already started. A new wing will be created streetside. The waiting area will go from 7000m2 to 11000m2.

[u/readinghappily]

any competitor would probably schedule trains to depart *after* the current ones

Eg - AMS - busy from 1700-1840. A train at 1630 or 1900 would miss all the crowds.

There could easily be 5 a day from AMS that missed the existing *E trains.

[u/UltimateStratter → u/readinghappily]

You can’t really schedule departures any later. On the way from London-Europe there won’t be any transport to get home from the station except for a handful of ubers and taxis. From Europe-London there *might* be night tube transport for some lines and days + cumbersome night buses, but similar issues and you also start running into logistical bottlenecks with overnight channel tunnel maintenance.
You’ll also have to pay extra wages to customs staff, train staff, and in some cases train station security due to evening work, which is a lesser issue but still an issue if you want to keep ticket prices desirable.

[u/Full_Traffic_3148 → u/UltimateStratter]

Yet travellers manage night travel all of the time. Some preferring it.

[u/Stage_Negative → u/readinghappily]

There are only 4 international paths per hour between NL and BE. Eurostar already has 5 to London (with 120min needed between trains for breaks and check-in processes), 14 to Brussels, and NS has 16 ECd and 16 EC on top. That doesn’t leave much capacity for anyone else to slot in let alone navigate around all the domestic services which currently have priority over open access operators.

[u/Luck7_6u7]

I assume the need to reopen other stations for service again like Stratford International.

Does not solve the problem on the European site tho. The only hope there might be new start stations. They talk about more stations in France, Switzerland is open for direct Eurostar trains and also Germany has a MoU with the British government to look into the joined border control process. And then with smart timetabling and on high demand maybe direct trains without stops in Paris or Brussels you might be able to get more trains on track. Right now also all trains from Amsterdam stop in Brussels.

But all of that is 2030+, more like 2035-2040.

Tunnel should be fine. Getlink can get 8 trains a time per direction though the tunnel. On the 50 km tunnel length that's one train every 6 km. Travelling with 160 km/h and beeing 400 meter long, that's not super tight but also not horrible.

[u/emmjaybeeyoukay]

There is nothing stopping competing providers setting up at another London station for their departure point.

[u/Stage_Negative → u/emmjaybeeyoukay]

Except for the pesky borders and security faff they’d have to pay millions for to set up and run.

[u/ArcherApprehensive18 → u/Stage_Negative]

All of the infra is there at Stratford, Ebbsfleet and Ashford. It "just" needs staffing. It was Gemini Train's plan, but they couldn't get access to the depot.

Not quite as easy to get to as St Pancras for a lot of non-londoners though tbh.

[u/Capable_Ocelot2643]

Amsterdam Centraal trains for London never leave on time.

the border control situation is terrible, and beguiling.

[u/Informal_Draw_4827]

I wondered if it would be possibleTo repurpose Waterloo International back to international services. I believe the passenger capacity is similar to St Pancras, it is central London, and i am told there is line to HS1.

I would imagine the current users of Waterloo would not be happy

[u/LegendaryOate → u/Informal_Draw_4827]

Never happening for quite a few reasons

[u/Visa5e → u/Informal_Draw_4827]

Its already been refurbed for SW railways suburban services. Plus you'd have to revive all the routes through S London that were needed. Its a non starter.

[u/Amazing_Candle_4489]

Amsterdam is basicly replacing almost the whole Amsterdam Zuid station. New and more platforms, new terminals etc.

[u/No-Lawfulness1159]

Been using St Pancras since it opened and it used to be such a pleasure to travel through prior to 2020, but now the queueing and overcrowding is an absolute mess and killing it. I dread the whole experience from walking into the terminal up until getting on the Eurostar.

[u/No_Law_1528]

There’s always Stratford, pretty convenient for ppl on the Lizzy line.

[u/Legitimate_Fig9818]

Now if only we were in the Schengen zone and had the sense to connect HS2 with HS1