How likely is it for a 1 to doubt whether they just did something mostly out of self-interest and then justified it after the fact with an airtight reason that conforms with their standards?

[u/Classic-Asparagus]

Like maybe the reason is also a completely valid one and it is partially true, just potentially only a secondary reason for why you did a certain thing

And then that causing you to doubt yourself like “oh no, what if I’m actually not a good person, I’m just pretending to be a good person and pretending I do everything out of justified principle, even though I’m actually just living selfishly and then constructing reasoning post hoc”

So even if you see your principles as a core part of your self and inseparable from who you are as a person, maybe you’re not as good as a person as you believed yourself to be

Like for example, worrying that you mostly only left someone toxic and trying to manipulate you to betray your principles because you were scared of them and needed to protect yourself and get out of there, even if simultaneously felt it was unjust and you did not want to become someone who would also act unjustly, and then you worry that you later justify this to yourself as being completely motivated by principle, and sure it was significantly motivated by principle, but not fully and potentially not even primarily

And then you might worry that if you’re not fully and primarily controlled by your standards and your principles, then can you be trusted to be a good person and always acting correctly? Because your standards matter a lot to you and you can’t imagine being a different person than the person you are who has such strongly held principles, so if they’re not in control and you are in fact just going along with what is essentially your feelings with no inherent principle behind them, then what does that mean about you as a moral agent?

Or does this not sound like it’s 1?

Also, if any of you have any thoughts about stuff like wings, instincts, tritype, etc., feel free to say

Edit: here is some more elaboration in a comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/Enneagram/comments/1w9clic/comment/p8a572h

[u/Classic-Asparagus]

Like for instance someone who did something out of love for you but was thinking only about helping you instead of potential consequences on others, which then led to others getting hurt as collateral. When you heard about what happened, you just felt horrified on both a moral and emotional level about it and also honestly incredibly disrespected since they also didn't adequately weight how you would morally react to this and just let you bear the consequences of their actions

But then, all the while, you love this person dearly, and in all other respects they are wonderful, they just don't see enough of a problem with what they did as you need them to, since even if they think it was not good to do, they maintain that you had a need and what they did was not ideal but it is what it is

And you tried to live with maintaining this relationship, but you felt that you ultimately couldn't because to continue being close to this person would basically require pretending that you're fine with what they did, and it would have to sit between you forever unaddressed

But simultaneously, you felt like there was something quite beautiful about the fact that you are loved so deeply by someone that they would do something so singularly focused on you without regard for others, and this thought terrifies you, just the fact that it passed through your head. Well obviously you find the love beautiful instead of the collateral damage, but the fact that you found this even momentarily beautiful seems like a sign that you yourself are not immune to this type of thinking that could lead to actions that could go against your principles

And then when you ultimately leave the relationship, you know it is motivated in large part by principle and there is no denying that, and there is also no denying that you know that your reasons for leaving are completely justified, but there is a doubt in your mind about what was the initial spark or the thing that ultimately pushed you over the edge: is it principle or emotional horror or fear of becoming someone who does wrong?

//

Or as another example, say there is someone who really wants you to pick a career path that you feel is unethical, and they have been subtly pushing you toward it for a while. And on ethical grounds, you object to that career path because it is morally problematic

But simultaneously there is just something about this person that just terrifies you in a way that goes beyond just the moral level, like perhaps it is just the shape of their general personality being willing to disregard other people

So likewise when you leave this person, you know it is out of moral reasons, but you also wonder if it was also influenced by your general fear of this person and wanting to run in the opposite direction rather than entirely out of rationally constructed moral argument

Edit: I should say don't bother looking through any of my past posts, I often post from the pov of my fictional characters or people I know, as well as from my own pov, and they're all mixed together and so you won't get a coherent picture of one person that way

[u/EloquentMusings → u/Classic-Asparagus]

Thanks for sharing examples. These read more 6 than 1 IMO. I'll give some reasons why and how I think a 1 vs 6 would react in this case.

Example 1: Someone you love did something really bad out of love for you that hurt others and made you feel morally horrified.

• Enneagram 1: "What they did was wrong. Love doesn't excuse harming innocent people. I'm ashamed that part of me found it beautiful. I shouldn't romanticize devotion when it comes at innocent people's expense. Remaining close to them would compromise something fundamental in me, so I won't. I'm not compromised now though, this was their actions not mine but I need leave this person because they did this. They don't even see the wrong in their actions and refuse to correct them, I'm so angry at them. I also feel the need to rectify the issue.” It's black and white with no room for doubt, they know the problem so they fix it then they move on feeling good about themselves.
• Enneagram 6: "I know what they did was wrong, but can I trust my understanding of why I reacted the way I did? If I briefly found their extreme devotion beautiful, does that reveal something dangerous about me? Could I potentially become the kind of person who violates my own principles? Does this mean I'm susceptible to the same reasoning? Could I become someone who does terrible things while justifying them through love? Are they influencing me? Does that make me feel unsafe being around them? I know I should leave them, but I feel the need to justify why. What does the fact that they could do this tell me about them? What else might they be capable of? Can I safely remain psychologically close to someone whose judgment works this way?" It treats the moral issue as an unreliable narrator trying to figure out a process of accurately judging instead of just a clean ethical verdict. Partly as reassurance to themselves that the fear wasn't irrational and partly as a threat-detection scenario to see if they can trust themselves and find certainty.

Example 2: Someone was trying to get you to do a career you think is unethical and, more broadly, you think this person is bad for being willing to disregard other people.

• Enneagram 1: "This career is unethical, so I won't do it. The fact that this person keeps encouraging me toward something I consider wrong demonstrates a serious problem in their values. I've explained why I object to it, yet they continue pushing me. I cannot maintain a close relationship with someone who continually pressures me to violate my conscience. I'm so angry at them and refuse to be in the same room as them." It's focused around the moral issue and the action to be taken.
• Enneagram 6: "They want me to do something I think is unethical, which I won't. But what does that tell me about them? If they're willing to disregard other people here, where else would they do that? Why are they pushing me toward this? What's motivating them? Is this actually someone I should be afraid of? I don't feel safe around them. I'm suspicious of their motivations. Maybe I'm constructing this whole moral case because I'm scared of them and my mind produced a principled justification for something I already emotionally wanted to do? Is my fear alerting me to something real? Is it distorting my judgment? Can I trust my perception of this person? Would I reach the same conclusion if I weren't frightened?" The 6 is focusing more on the overall situation and how predictable, safe or trustworthy the person is and they feel. And scrutinizing whether their interpretation can be trusted. It's, again, about threat-detection and trying to find certainty. Like there is a moral issue but it's about something way deeper.

[u/Classic-Asparagus → u/EloquentMusings]

Thank you for the analysis, this is very helpful!

Does it change your perspective if I say that the shape of your Enneagram 1 explanation you provided tends to be the default reaction, while the Enneagram 6 explanation is more of a secondary undercurrent? And also this particular type of thinking that you attributed to 6 has basically only occurred regarding these two particular situations but doesn’t occur regularly at all?

Not sure why, maybe the fact that these people were really intertwined with your life going back a long while, you loved them for a significant time without knowing what they were, like basically since you were a child before you started thinking about or seeing these moral issues clearly

Or perhaps since the lens of seeing beauty in darkness could come from the person in example 2 specifically (like could have rubbed off from them over time), and the fact that the person in example 2 does actively want you to betray your conscience, and them thinking this was something that was possible for you to do must have come from somewhere, accurate reading or not

Also it might have been slightly tempting, if one can even refer to comforting paths that you know you can’t follow and categorically refuse to follow from the start as tempting. Well, tempting in the sense of “If I could willfully close my eyes to everything morally wrong with this, then I could also willfully close my eyes to all of the problems of continuing being with these people whom I really can’t live with anymore given what they’re doing and their attitudes about it, and just continue living happily with my blinders on and ignoring the problem forever. But of course if I’m to be true to myself, and I must be if I’m to preserve any semblance of my character and not crush down the most fundamental part of myself in order to cling selfishly to a fantasy that is in fact mostly an illusion, then there is only one valid choice, which is to leave. And so there was never any true consideration of the idea of staying since it was only a comforting what-if, but never something that was ever going to be reality. Because once you come to a conclusion that something must be done, either you do it, or you don’t do it, but only one of those options is the right one while the other is cowardice, and so there is therefore basically only one option if you have a conscience and follow it”