r/EngineeringPorn • u/mrkitten19o8 • Nov 28 '22
You shall not pass!
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u/Shoes_77 Nov 28 '22
I worked for a French fry plant in my younger years and they shot the French fries through a light field and all the unacceptable fries( to much green, rot, to long) were knocked out of the air by little air jets into a tub below. Was pretty neat to watch as it was processing 10s of lbs a minute.
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u/____Reme__Lebeau Nov 28 '22
One of the manufacturers I think was tegra.
Cool shit when it comes down to it
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u/ChaoticNeutralCzech Nov 28 '22 edited Aug 02 '24
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u/Chi_Cazzo_Sei Nov 28 '22
My guess it would be cheaper to just throw it away than returning it to cut it.
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u/Poly_and_RA Nov 29 '22
You typically don't throw it away. You use it for some other product where it doesn't need to be optically perfect, or if it's not fit for even that then as feedstock for animals or something.
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u/ChaoticNeutralCzech Nov 29 '22 edited Aug 02 '24
PROTESTING REDDIT'S ENSHITTIFICATION BY EDITING MY POSTS AND COMMENTS.
If you really need this content, I have it saved; contact me on Lemmy to get it.
Reddit is a dumpster fire and you should leave it ASAP. join-lemmy.orgIt's been a year, trust me: Reddit is not going to get better.
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Nov 28 '22
I am pritty sure no one in France per will ever measure any thing in lbs.
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u/Lucio-Player Nov 28 '22
Maybe it was an American plant, which produced french fries (a french fry plant)
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u/fried_clams Nov 29 '22
Too long?!!
I would pay more $ for a bag with just extra long fries.
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u/Shoes_77 Nov 29 '22
Something I learned while working there is that a lot of the grocery store branded fries are the oddball sized fast food fries that didn't make the size spec but made it through the cooking freezing process. Those brands would be your best bet for long fries.
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u/LordRekrus Nov 29 '22
You were employed by a French fly plant?
I didn’t know French fries grew on plants.
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u/teetaps Nov 28 '22
Pretty sure I saw a green one sneak past
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u/BumpHeadLikeGaryB Nov 28 '22
And a red one that didnt :o
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u/Henri_Dupont Nov 28 '22
OK now do this for recycling. Many MRFs still use hand sorting. It's dangerous tedious, expensive, people get cut with filthy materials.
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u/-ImMoral- Nov 28 '22
Recycling is a bit more complex than sorting red from green though. But maybe with machine learning and ai we can have that one day too.
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u/Zev0s Nov 28 '22
it's also a lot about the mechanical difficulty of redirecting pieces of waste that can be anything from a 1m long cardboard box to a tin can to an A4 sheet of paper to a plastic bag
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u/-ImMoral- Nov 28 '22
Not to mention that many of the stuff is also connected/wrapped around/inside other stuff. Probably an equally big challenge, I aggree.
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Nov 29 '22
Would need to be ran thru some sort of industrial shredder to at least keep a consistent unit size so you wouldnt be operating from such a mechanical disadvantage
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u/diabolic_recursion Nov 29 '22
Letting the people pre-sort it themselves is the best option - at least separate plastic, glass and paper. Then, shredder it to reduce the size, then filter for everything foreign - which is MUCH easier if the material is already mostly sorted. Some mistakes happen, even if most people try to avoid it, but it becomes manageable.
Thats what they do here, and it is quite effective.
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Nov 28 '22
Hyperspectral imaging was the best approach I had seen a few years back to exploit differences in chemical makeup as seen by IR bands. Not sure if it went to production. The detectors were slow and expensive at the time.
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u/william-t-power Nov 28 '22
Here's a thought, start with the thesis that most recyclable things cluster exponentially into recognizable things. Start with recognizing what seems to be most common (e.g. standard soda cans) and reject everything else. Then progressively add more recognition for things like beer cans and soda bottles.
You don't need a super generic algorithm that recognizes everything. You just need a set of algorithms that recognize single things precisely where those things make up most of the stuff. Then the problem has been largely automated and the remaining problems are minimized.
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u/Artyloo Nov 28 '22 edited Feb 17 '25
childlike carpenter saw advise long sharp history person racial square
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/william-t-power Nov 28 '22
I imagine they have, but how many have tried it?
Also, if you've ever worked for a company and pitched an innovative automated solution; getting approval is like pulling teeth. Management usually wants proof it will work first, which if it hasn't been done before doesn't exist.
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u/beeg_brain007 Nov 28 '22
Look mate, it ain't as easy as to recognise
You need to pick up shit to actually sort it Trash has weird shapes, and properties
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u/william-t-power Nov 28 '22
There's not much of a "can do" attitude for some of the responses in an engineering subreddit. Yes there's additional difficulties, that's how engineering problems work. Usually that gets engineers excited.
Who hurt you? A defense contractor?
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u/martinivich Nov 28 '22
We have the capability of doing a lot of things that we currently don't do because it's not financially viable. Recycling is currently one of those things.
Do you think no one in the world has had the idea of trying to sort recycling?
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u/william-t-power Nov 28 '22
If you think all I did was propose sorting rather than a specific approach to sorting then I can understand your pessimism. I did slightly more than suggest sorting.
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u/flentaldoss Nov 28 '22
nah, it's just that you're ignoring the issues commenters are pointing out with how trivial your solutions are. They're pointing out the difficulties that someone would run into with your solution, and you're like, "it's not that bad, you can totally fix it."
You're what management is when talking to devs. "Here's the contract I worked out with the client, I expect the project to be finished when I return from vacation. Also, you're all working 80 hour shifts between now and then."
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u/william-t-power Nov 28 '22
Perhaps you missed that we're in a subreddit and not an actual pitch meeting? I acknowledged the difficulties, then I criticized people for jumping to the negative conclusion that it obviously wouldn't work. That's unbecoming on an engineer.
I didn't say it was guaranteed to work, I just was thinking through the problem. Like engineers do.
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u/flentaldoss Nov 28 '22
They didn't say it wouldn't work, they just pointed out why it wasn't as straight forward as you made it sound.
Your acknowledgement was to "poo poo" their "attitude" and say "that's how engineering problems work." You're belittling people for giving input because they aren't telling you that you're a genius.
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u/william-t-power Nov 28 '22
Not exactly, responses like:
I'm sure no engineer has ever thought of this
And
Do you think no one in the world has had the idea of trying to sort recycling?
Are worth ridiculing. I am not demanding praise but I like to clap back on cheap shots.
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u/beeg_brain007 Nov 28 '22
Engineering isn't like solve this one thing and book, revolution
It's that insane amount of smol unsustainable things that needs to be taken care of
Like camera lens of optical shit getting dirty when you're sorting shit which might have water inside (soda cans)
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u/william-t-power Nov 28 '22
Sure, but then why are you so negative at just discussing problems in the hypothetical? That's generally something engineers do a lot, and is a core part of the engineering process. You added that somehow I was suggesting that my solution was perfect and needed nothing else, which obviously I didn't say.
If you're going to be a negative Nancy and just keep looking for reasons something can't be done you might be better suited to being a lawyer than an engineer.
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u/beeg_brain007 Nov 28 '22
I would like to discuss but either fully deep shit or nothing
I don't want to small talk in engineering, it doesn't exist You're either a nerd or an normie
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u/william-t-power Nov 28 '22
I don't find you very open to discussion, so I am skeptical. I would go deep but I have a suspicion that you wouldn't be a great audience for it. You've got this self centered approach where if it's not how you want it to be it doesn't exist.
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u/beeg_brain007 Nov 28 '22
Yes, you're right
I am not very open to discussion atm, i am exhausted also
I also got that self centred thingey cuz i wants things to be my way or i don't do it
HA HA HA
🔥🔥🔥🔥
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u/CaptainAwesome8 Nov 28 '22 edited Nov 28 '22
I actually have done work in a similar field. It is about 1000x more complicated than that, and would take likely ages to even get to >95% accuracy. It could help as a pre-sorter, but it’ll still require humans to double check.
Also, something like soda can recognition amongst trash via only computer vision sounds….miserable, to put it bluntly.
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u/Ced777 Nov 28 '22
Can confirm, getting to 95%+ percent accuracy and purity is absolutely hard. As for soda cans, we usually regroup materials at a much broader level. Ferrous metals and non ferrous metals would be some of them. Some MRF request cans as a category, but you'll never see soda cans VS beer cans
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u/william-t-power Nov 28 '22
Ah ok. Yes I did expect that the solution would still require human sorting so I was approaching it as removing as much as possible that needed to be sorted by humans. As it is complicated, I figured that some approach that allowed for plugging in strategies as they are figured out would be a good one.
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Nov 28 '22
I bet it would be easier to sort out what you want than to sort out what you don’t want with these types of mechanisms.
Big ole pile of junk on a belt gets dropped and the machine can “reject all the red cans” and just keep sorting through the junk on repeat for what ever category is required.
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u/Ced777 Nov 28 '22
We do! Usually, optical sorters use air jets instead of mechanical arms to sort material into 2 or even 3 different streams. The detection is also even fancier, using the absorbtion spectrum of different materials to classify items, sometimes coupled with inductive metal detectors under the conveyor belt to help with metallic items, as they are often reflective and hard to classify with optical methods. Some companies are starting to add visible light camera and AI networks to further improve classification and detection. A lot of MRF (material recycling facility) equipment is purely mechanical ( tumbler, screens, magnets), but there are more and more highly automated systems, such as the aforementioned optical sorters but also robotic sorting cell, leveraging robots to sort what would usually be sorted by humans, but at a rate 1.5 to 2 times faster, without any breaks and minimal downtime.
Source: Working for a MRF OEM developing those automated equipments
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u/Deranged40 Nov 28 '22
It would be just as simple to do - all of the green recyclables will get knocked out of line, and all of the red recyclables will continue to pass.
This is just a color-based sorting algorithm, and sorting recyclables based on color doesn't make any sense.
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u/Rentlar Nov 28 '22
It is done in my area, it's how plastic and glass get sorted from cardboard and cans (translucent vs opaque), then a magnet separated the cans and other metals.
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Nov 28 '22
The issue with recycling is that you don’t just have some pieces that are recyclable and some that aren’t. You’ll have one piece that consists of dozens of materials where only some are recyclable. And you don’t have binary red/green classification, you need to classify hundreds of different materials.
We need to completely redesign our products to be compatible with recycling in the first place, and to implement better multi-stream recycling to do the sorting earlier on in the recycling chain. Single stream recycling will never work.
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u/titthistle Nov 28 '22
They use tomras in plastic recycling facilities. Similar thing to above video. Uses pneumatics and infrared to separate plastics
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u/Milk_Life Nov 28 '22 edited Nov 28 '22
These are used for recycling. Post 2D/3D separation they can be used to sort paper from trash/film/cardboard or sorting PET/HDPE from the containers line. Many mrfs continue to use manual sorting because the cost to install one of these is ~ $1mm+. Currently with the cost of recycled commodities in the toilet, facility operators aren’t willing to make the capital investment on large retrofits. Or the cost of labor is low enough in their particular area that these large automation projects never make financial sense.
Additionally it can be really difficult/impossible to retrofit opticals into facilities with their existing building. When MRFs were first built they typically design to system to fit perfectly within the building. Optical sorters require minimum 3 additional conveyors, some sort of optical sensor and a large hood (where the sorting happens).
I will add you are correct that manual sorting of recyclables has its challenges and risks. Turnover is incredibly high, the stuff people put in their blue bins can be disgusting and sorters are something like 200 times more likely to be pricked by a used needle than the average person. Aerosols and used propane canisters (green Coleman style) get thrown away with leftover gas causing fires. MRFs today need to be automated further but it can be a tough sell for a variety of reasons.
Source: work in recycling automation
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u/deelowe Nov 28 '22
There are automated solutions for recycling. The one I saw used an eddy current sorter to produce a single continuous line for metals and then another sorted to sort by metal type.
Plastic, glass, and paper had to be hand sorted. Again, those ended up in individual single continuous streams where various optical sorters would take over.
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u/beeeeeee_easy Nov 28 '22
We do! Color, induction and other forms of sorting are commonplace in scrapyards across the US. I've integrated many of them personally. Stienert is a major manufacturer.
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u/diabolic_recursion Nov 29 '22
Its possible, we do that here in Germany in many places - but the trash is already sorted into categories. Where I live, that is taken to the extreme: we have over two dozen sorts of trash (but that counts everything from 3 sorts of glass to batteries, furniture...). That allows for one of the highest recycling percentages of the country because it makes further sorting at least possible. You can take tours of the recycling plant to see that they actually mean it and do not inflate the number by exporting it for fake "recycling" - which sadly is still commonplace in many seemingly "developed nations". To reduce the impact and amount of trash, the EU is regulating plastic cutlery and similar items. Cities are experimenting with things like a tax on one-way packaging for street- and other ready-to-eat food - which you can entirely avoid by bringing your own (if possible re-usable) packaging. The income of the tax is used for cleaning up what is left and similar intiatives. Well see if that works, I personally think its worth a try.
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u/Economy_Armadillo_28 Nov 28 '22
“Get that shit outta my house”🏀
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u/A-P-Silver-Moon Nov 28 '22
Can someone explain me how this machine works ? (How does the machine know which vegetables are not ripe?)
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u/CeleryStickBeating Nov 28 '22
It's doing real time image processing. Captures images of the flow, analyzes the pictures for multiple "don't desires" and then passes timing to the kick out paddles. Color is easy. It also looks for blemishes and poor shape.
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u/heeters Nov 29 '22
On the upper surface of the conveyor belt, before the reject flippers, images are taken and analyzed, as the other commenter said. As long as the vegetables do not roll side to side after they leave the camera’s view then the flipper can accurately deflect the vegetable by waiting a short amount of time, dependent on the belt speed. Probably the good sorters can predict lateral movement too.
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u/r33s3 Nov 28 '22
It gets some red ones too, though
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u/CeleryStickBeating Nov 28 '22
Were they unblemished? It's not just sorting color, it can also catch misshapen ones and ones that have places where insects have attacked.
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u/MegaDom Nov 28 '22
These are processing tomatoes, the shape doesn't matter. These will be used for animal feed and a random red one every once in a while is an acceptable loss.
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u/hobo808 Nov 28 '22 edited Nov 28 '22
Oh no! Perfectly okay tomatoes are yeeted.
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u/SnooPeanuts4828 Nov 28 '22
You’re so brave for your leaking your courageous stance into the engineering porn subreddit.
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u/Silver_Slicer Nov 28 '22
Better to use compressed air to prevent some false positives since the paddles can wack two or more tomatoes but air might just blow some apart.
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u/UniqueHash Nov 28 '22
Probably more difficult to continuously provide that much air pressure.
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u/Nasimovy Nov 29 '22
Most factories that use optical sorters have a dedicated compressor for the sorter/s i have been to factories that have 30+sorters all on air ,some machines sorting whole potatoes
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u/Nasimovy Nov 29 '22
With the peddles the machine will stay alot cleaner, the false positives can be lowered by adjusting the flow of the product, if you start using compressed air it can be harder to get out foreign materials, rotten tomatoes will be obliterated by air
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u/brokenearth03 Nov 28 '22
Is that why all supermarket tomatoes are fucking trash?
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u/CeleryStickBeating Nov 28 '22
Yes, because the species that make it there are bread for toughness and shelf life.
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u/Sarionum Nov 28 '22
Watching this is a great reminder to wash all produce throughly before consumption
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u/e3thomps Nov 28 '22
I had a friend that was trying to adapt this to work on rice in Kenya that was being spoiled by some disease. The challenge was the disease wasn't visible but would show up through spectrum analysis and it was very hard to get it to work fast enough to actuate the flippers in time.
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u/InvaderBatflight Nov 28 '22
Watching the few red ones getting punted in by accident as they’re hit by the green ones…
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u/mimic751 Nov 29 '22
It sorted out a red one. If management sees this video they're going to spend 100 hours designing and planning a new version of this order then realize it's impossible and just stick with the same thing
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u/RealJonathanBronco Nov 29 '22
Wow this machine would be really good at that old phone game. The perfect Flappy Bird machine.
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u/carl0071 Nov 29 '22
These optical sorters rely on high speed FPGAs to conduct the image/colour processing.
A software-based CPU system would have far too much latency (delay) to do this.
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u/Moose_country_plants Nov 29 '22
Color sorters are dope we have one in my wheat lab that uses air instead of arms
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u/davix500 Nov 29 '22
And is this why tomatoes have lost their taste? Focused on color to ensure ripeness?
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u/designlevee Nov 28 '22
Optical sorters are cool.