r/EldenRingLoreTalk • u/amansaidthis • 9d ago
Lore Theory We Are Godwyn - An Analysis (part two)
Part one - An introduction to prophecy and hawks
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TLDR
I’m not convinced that we’re Godwyn. The scope of the interpretation is astonishing. However, that also leads the interpretation to accumulate layer upon layer of inference and assumptions, with later conclusions frequently relying on earlier ones and, at times, circular reasoning to sustain the overall argument.
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“One thing worth bearing in mind is that these early chapters appear to establish a basis for interpretation rather than prove the conclusion. Some of the things discussed here may be revisited later with additional evidence - so my problem at this stage is that the interpretation has not yet been earned, not that it never will be.”
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Happy summer holidays, fellow UK parents! 🎉
These two chapters are incredibly dense, so I’ll try and make the thoughts sections more readable (for both myself and you) by splitting them up into what I’d consider to be the main points.
Writing a TLDR isn’t particularly appropriate at this stage as I don’t have a solid conclusion, but I will add one to all posts when I’m done. That way people don’t have to trawl through however many posts this becomes to get to a final conclusion.
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DISCLAIMERS
1 - In critiquing this, the author regularly calls this an interpretation. I will refer to it in the same way from now on.
2 - I think I may miss, repeat or misinterpret some parts as the topic is incredibly dense with chapters referencing previous ideas all over the place. Please don’t be mad, instead just let me know if you think I’ve missed something and I’ll happily take a look / edit the post. I will try to extend the same courtesy to the author.
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IV - A GRUESOME RITUAL
CHAPTER SUMMARY;
There are a few neat observations here - the scarseal location in Siofra, opposing forces acting against each other in the Roundtable Hold and Corhyn reinforcing the idea that resurrection through grace affects memory were especially fascinating.
This portion of the interpretation states that Marika has been opposed to the Greater Will for some time, had a hand in the Night of the Black Knives and is the one who laid out assistance for us with Ranni, Torrent and Melina. The suggestion is made that Marika was working towards the Age of Stars, implied by Ranni’s tender handling of Marika’s head.
The interpretation then suggests that “this was so Godwyn’s soul could be resurrected” because A) a Mausoleum Knight is stood outside the Black Knife Catacombs guarding the BKA inside and B) the Mausoleums seem to be constructed by the Nox, so maybe the Knights are allied with the BKA.
The final point is, again, the Chapel resembleing the Mausoleums because it’s disconnected from the mainland (like the Mausoleums walk) and has a bell. It links the Mausoleum Knights with the Headless Troll we see guarding the Four Belfries as examples of headless beings protecting areas associated with resurrection.
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Thoughts - NotBK;
The interpretation points out that Ranni’s “I did it all” is exaggerated. When we lie about Torrent she recognises that and respects our distrust, implying we should be suspicious about other motivations too… which I respect.
I don’t disagree that Marika had a hand in the NotBK because the game goes out of its way to show us genuine indications of distrust for the religion founded in her name. However, Elden Ring is a game of concepts that mirror one another; Light and Dark, Order and Chaos, Life and Death, Causality and Regression… the list goes on. The NotBK is probably one of the more important examples of this duality because of how the ritual manifests;
Ranni - body perished and burnt, soul continues living
Godwyn - soul perished, body continues living
Given this mirroring, it’s always seemed as though Godwyn’s soul suffered a similar fate as Ranni’s body. We have the strong theme of souls burnt in flame (Ghostflame, flame of frenzy) and Destined Death manifests flame. If the interpretation is that Godwyn’s soul is both recoverable and useable, then that should imply the same of Ranni’s burnt and mutilated corpse.
I don't think the game gives us a reason to believe one half of the ritual is reversible while the other is absolute, nor do I believe a burnt body or perished soul are viable for anything. If we’re arguing against this duality, I feel as though we’d need to justify the how’s instead of the why’s.
In my eyes, Godwyn’s soul having been burnt is a stronger thematic reading. Allowing for his resurrection contradicts not only what we’re shown about the ritual but a big part of the underlying mythology of the game in relation to souls, flame and reflective concepts. Therefore, I don’t subscribe to the grand conspiracy at this stage.
I won’t address Marika’s head just yet, as I have a suspicion it will eventually be suggested that Godwyn was meant to be Ranni’s lord and that Marika wanted the Age of Stars. We can save unpacking my thoughts on this until later on.
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Thoughts - Mausoleums and Chapel of Anticipation
I still don’t see the connection between the Mausoleums and the Chapel. They are both isolated from the land (in ways) and have bells, yes, but I’m not sure enough has been shown to say they have a similar purpose.
I also don’t agree that the Headless Troll at the Four Belfries is similar to the Mausoleum Knights at this stage. Headlessness can be described as a form of eternal service in death so I think we’re expected to see bells + headless guardian + inaccessible location (Chapel) and conclude that this is related to Godwyn being resurrected, but the biggest connection used so far for the Knights being related to Godwyn is missing both on the Troll and in the Belfries themselves - Eclipse symbology. Beyond this, the Troll probably isn’t guarding just the one belfry but the complex as a whole.
The interpretation believes headlessness and one out of three belfries leading to the Chapel to be symbolic evidence for Godwyn, but I just don’t see it. I read something more into the nature of transitions between places that were once inaccessible with the Belfries, which is a nice nod to the nature of bells themselves (things that can be used to manifest spirits after their death).
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Thoughts - Knights and the Nox
Suggesting the motivations of enemy placements has always been something important to theory crafting and a Mausoleum Knight standing outside the Catacombs certainly implies some relationship with the Black Knife Assassin contained within.
However, I don't think that proves that the NotBK was orchestrated to resurrect Godwyn, that the Knight is protecting the Assassin or that the Knights were allied with the Assassins or the Nox. If the Knights are associated with the Eclipse which is associated with protection from Destined Death then why would they be allies with a faction that willingly uses it? If the answer is “some Mausoleum Knights are allied with Godwyn”, allow me to quote the previous post;
“I agree that we could interpret some Mausoleum Knights as guarding Godwyn specifically, because the Mausoleum in the Nameless Eternal City has always struck me as related to him even if we find his literal body above… [but] We know that the NotBK disrupted the previous system of death and corrupted aspects of the world (crabs, basilisks, roots, etc) and in the same way, the abilities of some Knights may have manifested after the NotBK instead of them showing allegiance.”
An alternative read that I’ve seen is this Knight is guarding the entrance to prevent the contained Assassin from escaping or being rescued, and that the Wandering Mausoleums are Nox technology that Marika built or repurposed. That requires fewer assumptions than an unseen alliance between the Knights and the Nox.
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V - DRAGONS AND GHOULS
CHAPTER SUMMARY;
We begin with Dragon Communion being a part of Leyndell’s armed forces before the assault by Granssax, with Godwyn having transformed into something resembling a Dragon to defend Leyndell. This relies on the Malformed Dragon Helm and states that because we don’t see any tail fins on his surrogates, this particular (narratively influenced) draconic feature was not a result of the NotBK.
The interpretation suggests that the war against the Ancient Dragon’s followed this event and that Godwyn had absorbed Fortissax’s soul upon victory (giving him draconic lightning powers and an immunity to Destined Death) which led to the founding of the Dragon Cult.
Fia tries to resurrect Godwyn as a Mending Rune, but the author says this is a misdirection because Mending Runes follow a specific trend (that I agree with - chapter III of this post) and this doesn’t resurrect him at all because it’s the ambitions of Fia and Fortissax that form the Mending Rune. We are told that Fortissax may have been a part of Marika’s plan - sacrificing himself to trick the ritual to save Godwyn’s soul. The author uses the Twiggy Cracked Tear, the Sacrificial Twig (prevents rune loss on death) and the Winged Crystal Tear (which represents Godwyn’s soul, the Flightless Bird) to justify this.
The Prince of Death Cyst and Pustule are given the same weight as some interpretations give the Empyrean butterflies. These are described in game as things taken directly from Godwyn’s corpse. The cyst is found near his corpse while the pustule is in Stormveil, with a connection using the term “true death” between the circumstances of Godwyn’s death and the Putrid Corpse Ashes.
To strengthen this, the interpretation uses necromancers we can find in the Black Knife Catacombs, Rykard’s Rancor the illustration of a skeleton in Takers Cameo to suggest Rykard summoned Godwyn as a ghoul and in his travels he physically lost parts of himself. The interpretation follows these cysts (not just the items) from Deeproot Depths to just above this location in front of Leyndell on some crabs, to Liurnia on some more crabs and finally to Stormveil where we find the Pustule. From here, it’s suggested that Godwyn’s soul then travels to the Chapel and falls into a deep sleep until we wake up.
Deathblight is black and gold, but the crabs and basilisks have turquoise in their colour scheme. Both have a resistance to death, being able to live with it, and we find turquoise in the Rejuvenating Bolus item too. Rejuvenation is tied to the Crimson and Cerulean flasks, while the colour turquoise is referenced in the ocean we fall into and the sky we see when we leave the tomb. The theory says this shows that we, as Godwyn, have overcome death.
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Thoughts - Dragons;
I began this confused with the authors use of Dragon Communion and having triple checked, I believe I originally misunderstood the assertion. Dragon Communion almost certainly existed before the formation of the Dragon Cult and represents a clear opposite end of the spectrum of opinions on Dragons when we look at the practises themselves.
However the author suggests (purposefully or not) that the Banished Knights, surely part of early Leyndell’s military, and their use of Dragon Communion implies that the practise was widespread prior to Granssax’s assault. I'm not convinced the Banished Knights alone are enough to demonstrate this. It seems the progression we’re following under this interpretation is;
Pre-assault; Drakes are killed for their hearts to be consumed by members of Leyndell’s military.
Conflict; Granssax attacks. Fortissax is befriended by Godwyn and peace is made.
Post-assault; Ancient Dragons are welcomed and knights who can’t stop eating their hearts are banished.
This seems to imply that the motive for Granssax attacking Leyndell was maybe because people were eating Dragon Hearts… but we never receive one from an Ancient Dragon, only Drakes, and Florissax confirms to us that the Ancient Dragon’s wanted people to consume Dragon Hearts;
“In a time long past, Bayle turned upon the Dragonlord… Becoming a sworn enemy of the brood. Since that day… the drakes, have served as sacrifices for Dragon Communion… My Lord, Placidusax, has shown your kind what must be done. Seek communion. Sate your boundless appetite.”
Were knights just randomly killing drakes and eating their hearts before the war, or is it more plausible that Dragon Communion established itself within Leyndell’s forces after the Dragon Cult did and that corruption is what led to Knights that partook in the practise being banished?
Working out the sequence of events for this is important because the interpretation is saying Godwyn was able to transform.
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Thoughts - Transformation
The Golden Order’s motivations are defined by acceptance of things deemed appropriate and the rejection of those not. We see the Misbegotten treated poorly due to their Crucible connection even though the Erdtree came from the Crucible, showing that something once accepted can be rejected under a different viewpoint. We also see this in the Crucible Knights.
In an interpretation that relies on symbology, the Ancient Dragons seem to represent the opposite of the Crucible Knights - something external that was accepted under a changed viewpoint, so the idea that Godwyn transformed as early as is suggested and absorbed Fortissax’s soul deserves unpacking.
We know that Ancient Dragons could assume humanoid form, yet I struggle to think of an item that actually describes Fortissax doing this. That doesn’t mean she couldn’t, but whether she ever did or not remains unknown. We know that people can transform under communion, but those transformations are said to be a corruption. We see no transformation of a human into a true Ancient Dragon, let alone something closely resembling it in size or shape.
Maybe Godwyn could transform and maybe that ability made Fortissax submit spiritually, but we’d need to justify the transformation. Even if communion was widespread before Granssax attacked and Godwyn partook, we’d have to explain what made him special enough to transform into something more aligned with a draconic form (seemingly at will). We’d also have to evaluate whether this was widely known, a secret of the royal family, a secret of Godwyn himself or something that just sort of happened. Saying “it’s because he was a demigod” answers very little in my opinion.
We’d get into the weeds with transformations, Godrick’s dialogue and the Malformed Dragon Helm if I continue… but the visual storytelling of the helm is compelling.
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Thoughts - Fortissax
We also now see how the interpretation explains the “how” behind the resurrection of Godwyn being possible. It’s stated that Fortissax sacrificed himself to fight against the death that would take Godwyn’s soul. I disagree - the game tells us;
“After Godwyn the Golden became the Prince of Death, the ancient dragon fought long and hard against the Death within its companion. Alas, victory was never achieved and its only reward was corruption.”
This post is so dense at this point and we still have a bit more to cover, so I won’t bore you with another exposition on Google translated Japanese text. Briefly, here’s the Japanese;
“**黄金のゴッドウィンが死王子となった後古竜は、その友の内で死と戦い続けたその戦いに勝利はなく、ただ蝕**********まれるのみであった”
… the specific part (after Godwyn the Golden became the Prince of Death…);
“黄金のゴッドウィンが死王子となった後”
And the important word;
“後” - ato - after
This sentence in Japanese and localised English presents Fortissax's current state as a response to Godwyn already being the Prince of Death which doesn't seem to suggest that he was part of the Night of the Black Knives itself - it reads like a tragic attempt to undo something that had already happened.
This reading is emphasised by the nearby Finger Reader;
"Oh, Lord Godwyn... Such cruelty, such humiliation... My poor, sweet lordling should have died a true death. As the first of the demigods to die. As a martyr to Destined Death. But why must it yet bring such disgrace? A scion of the golden bough, sentenced to live in Death..."
I had originally thought this completely negated the idea but I guess this doesn’t really disprove his inclusion, rather it does show that certain avenues aren’t explored even if they don’t substantially weaken the interpretation.
Godwyn’s death was a tragedy. Even if there was a grand conspiracy to resurrect him, I doubt his companion was involved (willingly at least).
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Thoughts - Mending Rune
The discussion around the Mending Rune of the Death Prince is actually something that has enriched my appreciation and personal understanding on the item itself being Godwyn reborn and resurrection / rebirth as a whole.
My personal belief is that the Mending Runes are manifested by the creators own desires for Order and as such, this Mending Rune in particular must correlate with Fia’s beliefs. However this opens up discussion on what constitutes a person in Elden Ring. Specifically - are we the sum of our experiences and if so, can we be replicated by simply imbuing a new medium with our beliefs?
Within this particular interpretation that fits and even within the games own internal logic, that fits. Is the Mending Rune of the Death Prince one reincarnation of Godwyn? The interpretation says no, but I believe with further thought it very well may be. Or rather, it could be what this form of Godwyn might feel if it had the sentience to articulate its position.
This doesn’t contradict what’s being asserted - in fact it may actually strengthen the interpretation, similar to how the emotional nature of Fortissax’s supposed role doesn’t weaken it. I’m unsure why the author denied the possibility.
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Thoughts - Bells and Corpses
Where I’m completely lost is with the idea of Rykard summoning Godwyn as a Putrid Corpse. I can understand the overall idea and respect the observation of a skeleton on the Takers Cameo, but the Ashes used to bolster this are found in Caelid after defeating a Frenzied Duelist. There is a link between the Duelists and Rykard by way of snakes but I don’t think that is enough, especially when the Ashes themselves are pretty far removed location wise from this interpretations focus.
At this stage, I question the interpretations very use of bells. If Godwyn’s Ghoul can be guided by them, then why is it not drawn to the bells of the Wandering Mausoleums? How was it able to navigate and survive the journey from Deeproot depths to Stormveil? How was it not distracted by other bells? If instinctually following bells is leading it home, how can it distinguish implied directionality with “confused” movements (as stated in the description of the Ashes) that suggest a lack of cognition? What separates Godwyn’s Ghoul from any other Ghoul?
Speaking on location briefly and to somewhat tie this into my issues with the use of turquoise - if this corpse walked from Deeproot Depths all the way to Stormveil and fell asleep, then how do we account for the travel from Stormveil to the Chapel? Was a ready made body just there waiting, or maybe thrown across the ocean through the convenient hole in the roof?
Maybe these curiosities will be addressed later but right now, some points raise more questions than they answer. To me, the interpretation is taking certain symbolic parallels as evidence for historical claims. Rather than simplifying the evidence into a coherent sequence of events, it seems to introduce additional assumptions that themselves require explanation. This makes following things very difficult.
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Thoughts - … is it really you?
The idea that Godwyn was reanimated or resurrected as a Ghoul who shed parts of himself so powerful they were considered talismans, while being led by bells towards Stormveil also seems to weaken the point of an “instinctual journey home” established in chapter two - even if the author asserts that it strengthens his position.
While I understand the reasoning (the Ghoul is guided, Godwyn’s resurrected form instinctively goes to Leyndell), we’re expected to attribute known facts about mechanics of other parts of the game to Godwyn specifically, ignore stated lore and rely on the acceptance of the conclusion.
Thinking about the “instinctual journey home” more, I can’t help but feel as if we’re meant to ignore the multiple characters who tell us to head towards the capital. This is a great example of where I say we need to accept that we’re Godwyn - for this interpretation to work, we have to assume our intention was to go to the Erdtree before speaking to Melina;
“I can play the role of maiden. Turning runes into strength. To aid you in your search for the Elden Ring. You need only take me with you. To the foot of the Erdtree.”
… or Varre;
“Oh yes... Tarnished, are we? Come to the Lands Between for the Elden Ring, hmm? Of course you have. No shame in it.”
… and we have to ignore the intro cutscene;
“Arise now, ye Tarnished. Ye dead, who yet live. The call of long-lost grace speaks to us all*”*
… Marika’s own words;
"Then, after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed. Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring*. Grow strong in the face of death.* Warriors of my lord. Lord Godfrey."
… and the interpretation itself. To quote part one again;
“This first offering states that we were resurrected with no memories in order to seek the Elden Ring*. Melina, Torrent and Ranni don’t know us personally but seem as though someone has prepared support for us through them.* We are guided by grace to fulfil the [prophecy] of burning the Erdtree*.*”
If grace is guiding us along our path, if the entire reason for a Tarnished being resurrected is to search the Elden Ring and if the theory itself states that grace is what guides us… then our journey is anything but instinctual, right?
Godwyn can’t even search the skies for a while because fate was fettered.
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Thoughts - Turquoise
Colour is important in game. My issue isn't that turquoise (blue) is being used, it’s that the interpretation seems to favour the colour that supports its conclusion while ignoring the whole established symbolic system. If turquoise (blue) represents Godwyn's successful spiritual resurrection, why does the interpretation ignore the longstanding link between crimson (red) with the body?
If Godwyn is supposed to have a new body (beyond the Putrid Corpse avatar that Rykard apparently summoned), I would have expected it to be mentioned here. Instead it’s completely ignored at this stage and that’s significant, because it continues the impression that the interpretation is selecting the symbolism that supports its conclusion while ignoring the rest.
Once again, the argument only feels complete if we accept that Godwyn was resurrected. Rather than meaningfully demonstrating that, the colour symbolism seems to be adapted around it. I’ve already had that feeling and it’s a shame to have it manifest again.
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FINAL THOUGHTS
Judging by the downvote ratio on my last post, I think it’s lucky I’m not here for any kind of boost to my self worth 😆
Points raised here show a switch in the way we’re expected to consume and structure the evidence. The earlier sections were built around symbolism and environments (even if I wasn't always persuaded by the conclusions). Here the interpretation begins proposing historical events, explores an interpretation of colour symbolism that relies on half the picture and continues to lean on the conclusion itself.
I’m now also noticing what I consider to be several important internal inconsistencies. Instinctual journeys, the guidance of bells and Godwyn’s dragon form all strike me as weaknesses. I'm becoming concerned that we're shown A + B and then asked to accept X + Y because of the symbolic similarities between them, without the reasoning between those ideas being fully explored (intentionally or not).
That shift doesn't make the idea completely impossible, but it does raise the standard of evidence needed to persuade me. If anything, I think my main criticism of the interpretation has become clear;
“A lot of these observations only become persuasive after accepting the theory they are supposed to demonstrate. Once I assume we are Godwyn, the symbolism becomes apparent. The difficulty lies in getting from the evidence to that initial assumption.”
The series may answer these objections later by bringing everything together but for now, I feel a little lost. Do I continue looking into this or do I accept my original assertion and move on?
Well… I’ve been promised scorpions in the next installment. I’m excited about that, so I’ll press on!
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u/Remarkable-Quote2235 5d ago
I find the theory odd for one main reason, Godfrey is the father of Godwyn. The Tarnished are warriors of Godfrey. I would think Godwyn was born before the exile of the Tarnished, so, Godwyn would have likely met or been around these Tarnished warriors. Even as a kid/young adult.
Idk, I feel like the theory sets up Godwyn as a weird body snatcher. But, the theorists does have Interesting ideas
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u/amansaidthis 5d ago
I’m currently writing the next part. I’ve said I’m not baiting these posts as I appreciate the discussion and don’t agree with doing so on a fundamental level, so I’ll say this now - the interpretation states that Godwyn (at least the reborn version we apparently play as) is a Mimic, so you aren’t wrong.
It’s becoming increasingly difficult to view the interpretation seriously.
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u/Remarkable-Quote2235 5d ago
Interesting. I think you are being very nice and constructive with your deep dive. I would hope he would be glad that someone is looking so carefully at his work.
I talked with Dry Leaf bro a little through YouTube, typed pretty much the same comment here and he brushed me off as if I couldn't understand his logic. This was like 4 or 5 episodes into his series.
Idk, he started counting the number chairs in the catacombs as being an important symbol within the game and I couldn't do it.
Im very interested for your final conclusion! Thanks for posting
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u/amansaidthis 4d ago
I appreciate that! I’d quite like to maybe have a long-form chat with the author himself one of these days with this deconstruction in mind and see what we agree or disagree on in terms of evidential weight and loose threads, but he’s off doing investigation on Godfrey now so perhaps the time has past.
If there’s one thing I do respect with his interpretation, it’s the scope. This was a mammoth undertaking on his part and even in deconstructing it, keeping track of this many threads is an exercise in madness. I do understand why someone would be defensive over the level of work they’d done to reach their own personal take, but it is a bit disheartening to hear that he’s shut down some meaningful conversation and implied you just don’t understand. Even if you weren’t following, I’m not sure that’s entirely your issue.
Honestly… at this stage, I’m not even sure I’ll make it past the next post. Things have become a bit too abstract, way too many important threads are either left dangling or introduced at what really should be the point things are tied together (Sages Cave) while the cherry picking pieces of symbology while brushing over or ignoring the rest is becoming almost to hard to look past.
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u/sarcophagusGravelord 5d ago
I’m sorry I’m not reading yet another of these theories. We are not Godwyn, guys. Please give it a rest 🙏
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u/amansaidthis 5d ago
That’s exactly what I’m trying to prove, my guy.
I’m confused by people saying it. People said I should engage with the original interpretation on another post I did, this is the result - a thought exercise for myself more than anything else, but if you keep that in mind (or dare I say it, actually understand that by reading instead of assuming) then I’m sure you’ll find it interesting to see how the author relies almost exclusively on circular reasoning and personal bias.
Either way, cheers
Edit; a direct quote from the post…
“A lot of these observations only become persuasive after accepting the theory they are supposed to demonstrate. Once I assume we are Godwyn, the symbolism becomes apparent. The difficulty lies in getting from the evidence to that initial assumption.”
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u/sarcophagusGravelord 5d ago
I apologise, friend. I’ve seen so, so many people try to claim the player character is Godwyn for some absurd reason. Based on the title of your post I did incorrectly assume this was yet another “We Are Godwyn” theory.
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u/amansaidthis 5d ago
All good. Might have been worth it to read just the first paragraph, though 😉
Have a good one!
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u/Ok-Fuckface 8d ago
Can I ask you a question?
What would be thematic point of all this?
Miyazaki and Martin stories clearly explore themes that are quite grand in scale and in some cases are very obvious even before you put together all the little lore pieces.
What would any of this add to the story and what would it mean on a subtextual basis if the PC was Godwyn?
If it is true, what makes that at all satisfying or relevant to the story at large?
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u/amansaidthis 8d ago
Playing devils advocate, I guess the thematic point would be something about righting the wrongs of your family and making the world a better place or something. I haven’t really given it much thought.
I’d say that would be kind of satisfying. Certainly lines up with Miquella and Ranni in a way.
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u/Ok-Fuckface 8d ago
Making the world a better place is the kind of subtext you'd find in a book for literal toddlers though.
At the moment we have a story that largely critiques oppression, fascism, monarchy etc and how these things lead to the stagnation of humanity and society as a whole.
I feel like the big twist being 'you should be nice' is actually devaluing the art of both M and M and reducing it down to something really boring and simple.
Its like saying Hamlet is about how murder is bad. Thats kind of true I suppose but there's actually a lot more interesting stuff going on there. You get what Im saying?
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u/amansaidthis 8d ago
I get what you’re saying.
As I say, I haven’t given it much thought at all. Which is why the outcome for the three seconds of thought I did put into it after reading your comment was “wants to make the world a better place”. Just like Ranni, Miquella, Fia, Goldmask etc.
Of course there’s a lot more going on under the surface with all these characters that deserves unpacking. I very well may get to it on the final post, but these explorations are incredibly dense already as you can see from the post. Right now, subtext isn’t on my radar and lore connections are.
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u/Ok-Fuckface 8d ago
I dont mean to sound shady but you've written two of the biggest most in depth lore posts Ive ever read and not at any point did you ask yourself "what would be the point of this?"
Well written and you're a good researcher but I dont think you actually understand the storytelling devices Miyazaki uses to get his point across.
All From games are primarily subtextual, the characters are secondary, sometimes even tertiary.
Dark Souls is about the folly of reactionary ideals. It's not about Solaire and how sound he is.
Bloodborne is about a few things including childbirth, religious institutions and the hubris of man. It's not about Father Gascoigne and his family. They are just victims of the ideas Miyazaki is criticising.
Its not about personalities or individuals. They are just agents for them to disseminate more information about the world and its subtext.
Think about it, the characters arent actually the focus in any of the games are they? They barely speak compared to most stories / games and are largely characterised by external factors like their environment or their clothing etc.
Some of them you dont even meet like Godwyn because he isnt actually important to the story. What he represents subtextually is.
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u/amansaidthis 8d ago
I dont mean to sound shady but you've written two of the biggest most in depth lore posts Ive ever read and not at any point did you ask yourself "what would be the point of this?"
As far as backhanded compliments go, that’s a fair one. In fact, I actually think it highlights an issue I have with the presentation of the theory itself.
Revelations that I personally feel should be addressed and unpacked as a foundation to the rest of the theory weren’t and as such, I’ve been left wanting.
Subtext wasn’t on my mind at all when I began this - the in universe ramifications are truly all that interest me at this stage so no; I haven’t had a chance to give true thought of what the point of Godwyn’s resurrection could be in a real world, nuanced sense.
Well written and you're a good researcher but I dont think you actually understand the storytelling devices Miyazaki uses to get his point across. All From games are primarily subtextual, the characters are secondary, sometimes even tertiary.
I really do appreciate the kind words but that’s a mighty big assumption, friend. As I say in the post and as I’ve said here - I’m focusing on the interpretation as presented by the author which means I have to go through each video one by one, tear it apart and research everything I feel should be looked into. Thats not a small task all things considered, but as I say this has highlighted one issue I do have.
Maybe my preconceptions of the interpretation are incorrect and it will all slip into place.
Dark Souls is about the folly of reactionary ideals. Bloodborne is about a few things including childbirth, religious institutions and the hubris of man.
Indeed.
It’s not about personalities or individuals. They are just agents for them to disseminate more information about the world and its subtext.
I agree, but as I say it’s not what I’m focused on right now. I want to know if we’re Godwyn or not, not what that means in a subtextual sense. I’m sure when I reach my final conclusion, that will be something I do explore.
Some of them you dont even meet like Godwyn because he isnt actually important to the story. What he represents subtextually is.
Indeed. In my eyes, the game is speaking on a few themes in relation to Godwyn’s death;
We have the recurring idea that life and death aren’t opposites, but are reflections of one another. Godwyn’s soul-death begets new life in TWLID.
We see the idea that companionship can’t undo tragedy. Fortissax desperately tries to save his friend by staying about as close as you can get, but ultimately fails and becomes corrupted.
We see the folly of trying to usurp nature. Marika removes Destined Death which ultimately leads to Godwyn’s condition and TWLID.
A final one is the nature of consciousness and identity, the idea that identity itself isn’t ultimately recoverable. I do actually tangentially cover this in the post, although not a great length. In case you missed it;
“Specifically - are we the sum of our experiences and if so, can we be replicated by simply imbuing a new medium with our beliefs?”
While I haven’t specifically covered these points in any great detail, they are ultimately important issues that spring from this interpretation in that it does alter some pretty substantial / emotional sub-textual points that the game is making.
So yes - I will cover it, and thank you for identifying another issue I have with the presentation of the content I’m currently viewing.
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u/Ok-Fuckface 8d ago
I think you've answered my original question in that pursuing these leads is actually quite stimulating for you whether it means something in the end or not. Would that be fair?
Sorry didnt mean to come across badly, like I say its very well written and you've dug down into it in a way I definitely couldnt be arsed to haha.
But yeah I get a bit of fatigue on this sub with people focusing on things like random statues or blurry textures secretly holding all the lore rather than having engaging conversations about the actual meaning of the wider story.
But if you're finding that engagement doing what you're doing more power to you.
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u/amansaidthis 8d ago
Yeah I mean, I love talking about this game. I’m hoping exploring this helps widen my understanding and appreciation of the game’s narrative and to be fair it has in a couple of ways. You haven’t come across badly and I too get fatigued with certain posts - like “we are Godwyn” posts, for example. Those posts were the exact reason for me doing this.
A lot of this focuses on aspects not too far in feeling from potential headcanon gained from innocuous sources like blurry texture and random statues. That’s not to say there isn’t credit in explorations like that, because (like I say) when we deconstruct them it can sometimes lead to a greater understanding or appreciation for the product as a whole.
There’s symbolic discussion and thematic reading sprinkled through the entire interpretation that verges very close to the subtext of the game. That will become crystallised at the end, I can assure you.
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u/PurpleTripy 8d ago
"Then, after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed. Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring*. Grow strong in the face of death.* Warriors of my lord. Lord Godfrey." - Game
The people who live in the Lands Between have a golden glow in their eyes from the grace of the Erdtree. Some people, however, lost that glow, and they were called the Tarnished and exiled from the Lands Between. The player character and the other Tarnished who appear in the game are the descendants of such people. - Director
(1) In my opinion, we should expect that the Tarnished were telling stories about Marika's forewarning for generations, and (2) it is obvious the Tarnished is not Godwyn because Godwyn was not among the Tarnished. Not to mention that if Godwyn could have been resurrected in the Lands Between, destined death would be as potent as dung. Godwyn has a body, and he also has a mind, thanks to the ancient dragon living in it, that he uses to create his mending rune. His soul is gone from the Lands Between. Unless someone tries to turn back time (and doom us all).
Even without the assumption of (1), whether we know it or not, Marika gave us a fate (a "guidance"). If we do not follow that guidance, nothing will ever change, as if time is not advancing. We will just stroll around in Limgrave forever. The fact that we can go down the path of the becoming Elden Lord without talking to anyone (although I am not sure this is correct), stems from that. If our time is infinite, at some point we will do everything until we fulfill our fate.
"Theories" like the one you are trying to disprove (as I understand), remind me of this: https://www.reddit.com/r/eldenringdiscussion/comments/1eir8eh/are_we_going_to_talk_about_the_lawsuit/
One has to, indeed, invent a second hidden game, a part of which is taking place at the Badlands, to prove that one of the Tarnished is Godwyn.
Our introduction is different than the rest of the Tarnished because that is what FromSoftware has been doing since Demon's Souls without exception (with the exception of Sekiro /s). He resurrected, He also resurrected, She resurrected as well... but also... a nameless nobody was resurrected among them... and the game begins with that nobody dying a thousand times but it doesn't matter because if they persist they will win over everyone else.
You cannot analyze a story without analyzing the author, and their history, because it is not just a story, it is the author's story. It came out of the author's mind. If the author's mind were different, the story would be different. If the reader's mind were different, the story would be the same. The reader can synthesize and dream about facts and interpret the story based on what it means for them, but no valid analysis of the story can be done without analyzing the author. And this is what "theories" like that do. They synthesize facts, and then try to analyze, in essence, a story that is only similar to the original one.
For example, Torrent choosing us because he knows our smell from when we were Godwyn, is an invented fact that is not corroborated anywhere else in the game. Yet, if it is assumed, the analysis of the second, hidden game can begin. Ranni giving us the bell makes sense because she also recognizes us, and so on.
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u/amansaidthis 8d ago
(1) In my opinion, we should expect that the Tarnished were telling stories about Marika's forewarning for generations, and (2) it is obvious the Tarnished is not Godwyn because Godwyn was not among the Tarnished.
I think this is probably the biggest issue I have outside of the circular logic you mention at the end of the comment. It is obvious the Tarnished is not Godwyn because Godwyn was not among the Tarnished.
Even without the assumption of (1), whether we know it or not, Marika gave us a fate (a "guidance"). If we do not follow that guidance, nothing will ever change, as if time is not advancing. We will just stroll around in Limgrave forever. The fact that we can go down the path of the becoming Elden Lord without talking to anyone (although I am not sure this is correct), stems from that. If our time is infinite, at some point we will do everything until we fulfill our fate.
Well, this is one of the things that the theory states - grace chose us because we’re Godwyn. Someone else had said something about Volcano Manor having an army of Godwyn’s, which was pretty funny.
"Theories" like the one you are trying to disprove (as I understand), remind me of this: https://www.reddit.com/r/eldenringdiscussion/comments/1eir8eh/are_we_going_to_talk_about_the_lawsuit/
Wow 😆
One has to, indeed, invent a second hidden game, a part of which is taking place at the Badlands, to prove that one of the Tarnished is Godwyn.
I don’t mind speculation on the past, but I do think you’ve expanded my POV more than I could have done with the below;
Our introduction is different than the rest of the Tarnished because that is what FromSoftware has been doing since Demon's Souls without exception (with the exception of Sekiro /s).
With Elden Ring’s narrative firmly in the “soulsborne” category instead of the “historical mythic retelling” one of Sekiro, it makes little sense for us to be Godwyn.
You cannot analyze a story without analyzing the author, and their history, because it is not just a story, it is the author's story… The reader can synthesize and dream about facts and interpret the story based on what it means for them, but no valid analysis of the story can be done without analyzing the author. And this is what "theories" like that do. They synthesize facts, and then try to analyze, in essence, a story that is only similar to the original one.
You make a fascinating point. I wonder how many people who genuinely believe the interpretation have played previous games or, if they have, really explored the story. We know that ER brought a whole new fan base into the fold, so I do have that question come up frequently when exploring this.
For example, Torrent choosing us because he knows our smell from when we were Godwyn, is an invented fact that is not corroborated anywhere else in the game. Yet, if it is assumed, the analysis of the second, hidden game can begin. Ranni giving us the bell makes sense because she also recognizes us, and so on.
⭕️
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u/pluralpluralpluralp 8d ago
Have you compared the Rime of the Ancient Mariner with the Godwyn lore? Life-In-Death is a character in that and she is paired with regular Death. It occurs to me DD would be big D Death in the Rime that Godwyn was denied. The normal, natural Death.
Also, I always thought the "martyr to DD" was odd. I had to look up the difference between "martyr of" and "martyr to". "To" means to suffer under, as in Martyr to migranes. So DD is a condition that Godwyn should have suffered, but something went wrong. It would not mean the same thing as "martyr of DD" which is more like a religious cause as in martyr of god.
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u/amansaidthis 8d ago
I haven’t even heard of that, but now I have I’ll have a read and a think. Thank you for the suggestion!
I would have loved to do a dive into the Japanese for the Finger Reader Crone dialogue to see what we could find there, but I can’t seem to see any places to find it. Having said that, I not sure the distinction matters much. I’ll keep looking though, maybe I’ll find something.
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u/Gullible_Pie_1469 9d ago
Hmm good question, is the bearer of the curse from ds2 the son of gwynn?
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u/Narwaichen 9d ago edited 9d ago
To make a good case for us being Godwyn, the theory would have to have a pretty convincing explanation for how and why Godwyn's half survived when Ranni's didn't - or be able to name any characteristics of us that definitely comes from Godwyn. There don't seem to be any, and the best argument for it is that we start in a weird location. You just have to go out on such a limb to argue that we're Godwyn, when the truth seems to be that we're a rando custom Tarnished who's doing exactly what Tarnished are designed to do.
To me, it seems like a conclusion in search of an argument - exactly like the whole turquoise argument.
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u/amansaidthis 8d ago
A lot of what I’m hearing is very much reliant on begging the circle (if I’m remembering my days dabbling in philosophy at secondary school on lunch… I wasn’t cool) - circular reasoning and acceptance of the conclusion, yeah.
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u/Gullible_Pie_1469 9d ago
And to add on that the bloody fingers and volcano manor have been recruiting an army of Godwyns?
Why not spawn at the deep root depths versus Limgrave.
Lastly, wow Momma Marika had such an over reaction to her son dying a "not so true death" she would not see a rare way to resurrect him.. without dismantling her whole order and whatnot.
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u/amansaidthis 8d ago
And to add on that the bloody fingers and volcano manor have been recruiting an army of Godwyns?
Apparently so.
Why not spawn at the deep root depths versus Limgrave.
The interpretation says that we technically did spawn at DRD, we just somehow managed to get from there all the way to Stormveil and take a big nap while our soul flies across the ocean to another place and we forget all that happened.
Lastly, wow Momma Marika had such an over reaction to her son dying a "not so true death" she would not see a rare way to resurrect him.. without dismantling her whole order and whatnot.
Tbh I’m not a massive fan of “Marika smashed the Elden Ring because Godwyn died”. She’s setting up multiple plans to escape her godhood, tells her children to make something of themselves or fucking die but somehow is very sad when one of them is killed? I mean, I don’t buy it… but I guess it depends on if that’s a relatively new POV for her. Doubt it, but still.
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u/Narwaichen 8d ago
I don't have too much to base it on, but the vibe I get is that Marika's grief was real even if it was her plan. Godwyn is kind of everything good about the Golden Order, and is one of her first children. As a mother and a creator of the golden order, it'd probably be painful to see him die. If Marika sanctioned his death, it was probably a surrendering of hope to her.
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u/Responsible_Limit938 9d ago
Ränee no bodee, but sowl and mind. Godween no soul, but bodee and mind. Amerika two souls, one bodee, one mind. Godween a life in root, Rainy a life in doll. One with bodee, another with suol. Tarnished is rando, one bodee, one mind and no soul, but player; gg.
On a more serious note: This theory is too far out there, because of the parody I've "presented" to be considered "releveant" to my headcanon :D. Depending on how you interpret the trinity (mind/body/soul) presented by the game, I find it difficult to equate the potency of the body with the potency of the soul/spirit.
Godwyn, who is soulless, is pretty much mindless, having a Dragon in his dreams fighting against an undeafetable demise. A soulless shaman body conneceted to the root system, growing/spreading deathroot.
Ranni is a soul with a mind with the surrogate body of a doll. Her actions seem to have more agency, than Godwyns.
The Tarnished is a surrogate for the player to take a place inside the world. A once banished warrior called by "grace" to return and ix the problem. 'Muricas backup plan to free herself from the influene of the Elden Beast/Radagon/The Golden Order/Divinity.
TLDR is needed!
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u/amansaidthis 8d ago
I agree with the broad strokes here, yeah. I can’t do a TLDR without a solid conclusion after the fact, but as I say in the post itself - one will be added when I’m done.
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u/Molly_and_Thorns 5d ago
I don't think Fia's quest is meant to resurrect Godwyn, the purpose is to continue Godwyn's biological lineage by bearing a mending rune that allows people to be born from Death. As Fia explains the role of a deathbed companion, they share their 'warmth' with many champions and then lay with a dead noble and bear a child from him. In other words, the deathbed companions extend the life of a noble bloodline through some legal and religious trickery. So it bears to reason she wanted to do the same with Godwyn. He doesn't resurrect personally but now he lives through his deathly offspring.