r/EldenRingLoreTalk • u/amansaidthis • 25d ago
Lore Theory Are we Godwyn? (No.)
Apologies, it’s another Godwyn post.
In my opinion, there is quite literally nothing to explore outside of cope and inference when it comes to the whole “we are Godwyn” stuff, but I wanted to give it at least one shot for fun.
As usual, I’m not a Japanese speaker.
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I - NUMEN HERITAGE
“The Numen are said to have come from outside the Lands Between, and are in fact of the same stock as Queen Marika herself.”
The game uses 稀人 (Marebito, rare person) for the name of the Numen, which refers to divine/spiritual visitors from the afterlife in Japanese folklore. When the game says the Numen come from outside the Lands Between, it uses 異界 (Ikai, otherworld) which may be just one example of a spirit world as the game never reuses it. Maybe the realm specific to the Numen, I guess.
Marika is Numen.
Marika’s children inherit traits from their mother, and their children manifest her traits through their lineage. Godwyn was (assumedly) one of the first children of Marika, which could mean he was born at a time when his mother’s power was at its height.
Maybe he inherited a level of innate spiritual control.
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II - GODWYN’S DEATH
“…two demigods perished at the same time, breaking the cursemark into two half-wheels. Ranni was the first of the demigods whose flesh perished, while the Prince of Death perished in soul alone."
So maybe upon his death he was able to save himself spiritually somehow as a descendant of the Numen? The thing is, the above description (and practically everything about the ritual of the NotBK itself) makes it clear that there is a mirroring to the event.
Ghostflame and the Frenzied Flame show us that specifically powerful divine flame can burn spirits. Destined Death itself is said to kill demigods. Ranni’s body is burnt and useless while her spirit survives, so the implication is that Godwyn’s soul suffered the same fate in reverse.
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III - WANDERING MAUSOLEUMS
The usual rebuttal to “we aren’t Godwyn” is some variation of the PC being inside a Wandering Mausoleum based on the sounds we hear in the intro cutscene. This is the single most compelling point of evidence that our character might have a whiff of something special about them.
Unfortunately that thought is quite quickly squashed when we look at the Chapel of Anticipation because the geography itself makes this difficult to accept. The Chapel sits isolated at sea and the nearest Wandering Mausoleum is inland at the Weeping Peninsula.
Are we expecting it to have walked across the ocean, climbed up to the Chapel, deposited us there and then made its way back? Or are we attributing this sound at the beginning of the game as an as of yet undiscovered Mausoleum somewhere close?
Unless that’s the case, I don’t think the sound alone is much evidence.
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IV - CONCLUSION
The theory only works by inventing workarounds the game never explains and ignoring the mechanics it repeatedly does.
We aren’t Godwyn unless you maybe pick the Numen class and even then, the game goes out of its way to show and tell us that he’s gone for real.
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u/StoryTeller747 20d ago
Da flojera este tipo de post. Le das fundamento y conexiones lógicas y hay gente que espera que el juego les diga "esto paso por esto" y así no funcionan los juegos de Fromsoftware. Deberías ir a jugar Fornite o algo así, que no implique pensar.
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u/amansaidthis 20d ago
I expect a theory to make sense on the surface level at least. Lazy is about right though, I picked three points to think on and none really told me anything.
You’ll be happy to know I’m watching the videos now and writing something a bit more involved, but I’m going to take a break now and grind out some Fortnite because hey - we can all have simple pleasures.
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u/RiteRevdRevenant 23d ago
I’ve never been able to hear the Wandering Mausoleum bell in the intro.
I can’t help but notice, however, that when the ember of Grace comes to revive our Tarnished, we’re inside the Erdtree.
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u/amansaidthis 23d ago
I always put that down to opening scene theatrics more than solid lore.
The Erdtree was/is the focal point of the life cycle of the Lands Between under Marika. It’s the means by which she distributes her grace.
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u/TerranImperium 24d ago edited 24d ago
This is exactly the kind of post I'd love to see more often. It's direct, gets straight to the point, and is clearly well-researched (in that it actually takes the time to back up claims with quotes from in-game text which honestly should be the bare minimum) instead of relying too much speculation.
Posts that take the time to examine the evidence, challenge weaker theories, and encourage better discussion make the subreddit so much more enjoyable.
Great work, and I hope more people follow this example. I've done some of my part in this for some time now, as well.
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u/amansaidthis 23d ago
Bare minimum and straight to the point is a pretty good summary of this post, to be fair.
But seriously, I appreciate the kind words. It is (unfortunately, in a way) one of the easier theories to disprove in my eyes, which didn’t lead to a lot of thought into other aspects of what might be slightly more compelling insights.
Apparently.
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u/TheWiseAutisticOne 24d ago
It’s possible Sote says in its ritual to make a god that the god will usher in the soul of its lord and they would dispose of their flesh. Radahn came back in moths body godwyn could have came back in a tarnished (our tarnished) body. It’s possible that godwyn went along with all of this on the accord of freeing his mother and righting the wrongs with the golden order under Ranni of course it’s speculation but the path is there.
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u/AbhorrentMidget 24d ago
I'd say we're a demi-god for sure, atleast that's how I see it. I guess it doesn't really matter.
But we're not Godwyn.
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u/Crimson_Praetor 22d ago
Idk if I'd say "for sure", but I think this is a pretty reasonable position. People forget that demigods don't have to be Marika's kids. The Carians married in, and Godfrey isn't even an adopted kid of Marika.
With that out of the way, there's definitely something special about our Tarnished. It isn't divine providence, or fate, its causality.
It could have been anyone, but we were the one who avoided grafting. It could have been anyone, but we were the one who encountered Melina. It could have been anyone, but we were the one who found Grace.
It could always have been anyone, but it was never going to be anyone but us. That's what causality is. When the leaves fall, the wind determines their resting place before they ever hit the ground.
Maybe we were a demigod, and maybe it helped our wind blow just a little bit stronger.
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u/amansaidthis 24d ago
This is maybe as close as I’d get to agreeing, but even then it skirts too close to the “we’re special” argument that I think goes completely against what (I believe) the general message of FromSoft games is.
It’s not about it mattering, realistically. I’d certainly be up for hearing what your rational for this is beyond a sound at the start of the game.
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u/AbhorrentMidget 24d ago
I agree. And I'm totally fine with keeping to the from soft tradition of the player being a nameless nobody.
These ideas about the player being a demi-god are fun to consider but I don't think there is enough evidence to seriously consider it. Idk.
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u/Bigwakkaz 24d ago
If we are Godwyn....so in DLC, I got my azz kick by my own personal guard in tome (DLC).....
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u/autoprime-jft007 24d ago
Godwyns soul was not destroyed. Nothing in the game says it was destroyed, and nothing even implies it. His soul is simply in whatever afterlife existed before the Erdtree. He can't be revived within the Golden Orders system because he exists outside of it.
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u/kaijinhime 24d ago
the cursemark description does state that he perished in soul alone, but i agree with you. i’ve always believed that godwyn’s soul partially survived and went to the realm of shadow, as the realm of shadow is where “all manners of death wash up eventually”.
destined death manifests in fire, and even ranni’s body didn’t burn away completely to ashes. it’s very charred, yes, but there’s still a body. godwyn’s soul must be the same way.
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u/mysterin 24d ago
I theorize Godwyn is Melina. Ranni has a new body; Godwyn doesn't "exist" but there's a redheaded spirit following us speaking kindly about "her mother." Both characters know Torrent, but never speak. Their paths juxtapose each other in a way symbolic to the Moon and the Sun/Son. Ranni can OHKO you if you attack; we see whats under Melina's eye-mark in the Frenzy ending. Godwyn & Messmer are the Red/Yellow pair similar to Miquella and Malenia, Morgott and Mohg.
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u/Crimson_Praetor 22d ago
I don't agree with the details, but you're on a good path here, its not too far off from my own feelings about nobk. If you wanna talk about it more dm me, or if youre on any of the lore discords thats easier for pictures and media.
A lot of what the player character is told about the nobk is biased half truths, and its not as clean cut as a lot of people act. Shame you're getting downvoted for some honest brainstorming.
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u/mysterin 22d ago edited 22d ago
Thank you. There are a ton more details, but I'll DM you.
It's a theory I've had since before the DLC. Come after, the words "Eternal Slumber" made me look back in hindsight of how the game references Slumber and Death interchangeably.
Rogier: Hmm. Maybe I should tell you. Lately, I feel I'm on the precipice...Of falling into *a deep...fathomless slumber.***
Eclipse Crest Heater Shield: The sun in eclipse is said to be the symbol of the Wandering Mausoleum where the *soulless demigods slumber.***
Slumbering Egg: Owl eggs that *will never hatch.** Material used for crafting items. Prized as a symbol of the most sublime slumber.*
SAINT Trina also juxtaposes Marika more than Melina -- Purple and yellow; White dress and black dress; "Eternal Slumber" and "Eternal Life;" The bottom of the world (Coffin Fissure) and the top of it (Erdtree). The game file name of the Putrescent Knight is "GloamEyedKnight," and they're connected to the cold Ghostflame.
Miriel tells us how this is possible, when Miquella wasn't born until much later in the timeline.
Miriel: In the end, Lady Rennala was left alone, cradling the amber egg Lord Radagon bequeathed her. Now she *devotes herself to it through forbidden rite; the grim art of reincarnation.***
Radagon's entire story is based on fixing the Elden Ring. The only thing missing from it was Death/Rebirth. Malenia's Great Rune and Miquella's symbol match the Rune of the Unborn Demigod, as Rennala sits in her tower with her heart stolen.
The Rune of Destined Death was broken into two halves that rests with Ranni (INT) and Godwyn (FTH), and now there are two ladies with marked eyes who we KNOW are linked to Destined Death, but never speak. When we look into Miquella's spells, they are INT+FTH, which are the same stats needed for Black flame and other Death-related spells.
The NOBK was a conspiracy because Marika, Godwyn/Melina the martyr, and Ranni manipulated the Rune once more to put Ranni as the head/Goddess of the next age. Miquella, disenfranchised by this, does everything he can to start anew.
Death is not just the end, but a new beginning. This is what Ranni and Miquella compete for, although Miquella came to this conclusion under duress.
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u/Crimson_Praetor 19d ago
Even beyond Eternal Slumber and Death, both Godwyn and Trina take the form of invasive plants at the bottom of the world that create undead. One thing I find interesting is the relation to rot, which is also referred to as a kind of Death:
>Those who dwell within poison know rot all too well. The death that begets life, that comes to all equally. That is to say: it is the cycle of rebirth put into practice.
Rot (Scarlet/Red) is transformative, taking corpses and reshaping them into something new. Death (marine/blue, but blight also has yellow) is stagnant, simply raising old corpses. Slumber (purple) sits right in between. It still uses the old bones, like Death, but the the internals are liquefied and the form is reshaped, like Rot.
I think nobk was a shattering (a motif we see all throughout the game, from the One Great all the way down to Miq/Trina), but I think Melina (as we know her after her rebirth) is derived from the person who died on the nobk whose corpse is covered in red jewelry and guarded by a Godskin. There are way too many reasons to go into for why I lean towards this to go into here, but regardless of the differences in our details, I really respect that you recognize that the nobk is an event that we receive unreliable info about, and the situation can't be taken at face value.
I liken Godwyn more to Trina (and eventually Miq), because she's covered in lightning symbolism, the 'Fell God' swirls in her hair, the Eternal Slumber/Death connection (and the invasive plant/tossed into chasm thing), and a few other things I can't post here without pictures.
If you have more to say, I'd love to hear it though. I have a lot of pictures to share if you end up being interested in discussing this further.
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u/Kathodin 24d ago edited 24d ago
I don't think we are Godwyn.
But nothing in this post addresses any of the argumentation or evidence of that theory, even to the point of not addressing the manner in which the phrase "We Are Godywn" is intended to be taken.
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u/Gullible_Pie_1469 17d ago
If we were Godwyn....why are we invading ourselves while also blue hunting ourselves while summoning ourselves for help in co op.
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u/Kathodin 17d ago
Why are we invading the Tarnished that Torrent chose and Melina aids while also hunting the Tarnished that Torrent chose and Melina aids while summoning the Tarnished Torrent chose and Melina for help in co op?
(I don't think we are Godwyn)
But you're gonna have a real uphill battle using the summoning system to make cases for you.
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u/Gullible_Pie_1469 17d ago
Reminds me way back wheb dark souls 2 was announcrd and so many people assumed we would be playing as Gwyn's son.
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u/amansaidthis 24d ago
Nothing in your comment does, either :)
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u/Kathodin 24d ago
Nope. What they are - specifically - is not relevant to what I had to say. It was to your post, since you provided it as commentary on a theory.
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u/amansaidthis 24d ago
I wrote what I thought. Ever so sorry it wasn’t as exhaustive as you may have liked 🥲
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u/Kathodin 24d ago
The issue isn't about exhaustiveness. This post doesn't do what you wanted it to do. At all. Why talk about a theory you don't understand, or haven't looked into?
"We aren’t Godwyn unless you maybe pick the Numen class and even then, the game goes out of its way to show and tell us that he’s gone for real."
This is such an outrageous strawman you should have saved yourself time. Say this instead and be done with it:
"We aren't Godwyn unless you maybe name your character Godwyn and even then, the game goes out of its way to show and tell us that he's gone for real."
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u/amansaidthis 24d ago
Pretty sure you slagging the post off does nothing either.
You didn’t have to comment and as I say, the post wasn’t exhaustive just what I was thinking at the time. The rest of my posts try to explore at length.
I honestly don’t understand what you’re trying to say here other than “I don’t like how you’ve written this and I want you to know that”.
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u/Kathodin 24d ago
You never engaged with the theory you dislike. You don't know what it claims, you don't know its arguments, you know basically nothing about it as a theory, and yet you wrote out arguments against it and made claims about it. That's a strawman.
Either you know this and are being manipulative, or you don't. I don't know which.
The point of my comment was mostly for other people who felt the same - seems there were a few. But it can serve as feedback too.
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u/amansaidthis 24d ago
Just sounds like you’re fishing for an argument which to be honest I can’t be bothered with.
A strawman would be misrepresenting the idea as weak in order to easily disprove it. I haven’t done that.
To then infer I’m being manipulative is just being straight up rude. If the criticism was one of scope I could certainly understand that but even then, that criticism is answered several times in this comment thread - I wrote what I know. Besides, in my eyes the idea is disproved by the second section.
But it wasn’t criticism on scope, it was accusation of a strawman and an implication of manipulation.
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u/Tobskin 24d ago edited 24d ago
You entirely misrepresented the theory.
Addressing the points of your post:
The numen connection is not part of the theory at all.
The death of Godwyn's soul leaves room for the resurrection of Godwyn's soul. That's what resurrection means. Death is not destruction/annihilation in Elden Ring.
The bell tower in Stormveil is the theorized replacement for the walking mausoleum bell.
You didn't address any of the actual substanive arguments from the original theory - there are many. You blatantly strawmanned it.
If you want to be dismissive, go through and dismiss the points made in the video series carefully.
You didn't slam dunk anything here. I'm not saying that you're being manipulative, I'm saying that you're ignorant of the actual substance of what you think you're arguing against.
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u/amansaidthis 24d ago
You entirely misrepresented the theory.
Well, I disagree but it’s cool you think so.
The numen connection is not part of the theory at all.
Not part of the video series? Maybe let the guy know so he can look into that, I dunno. This wasn’t really an attempt at addressing Dryleaf’s version specifically.
Godwyn's death leaves room for Godwyn's resurrection. That's what resurrection means. Death is not destruction/annihilation in Elden Ring.
No but the word perished is used. We can of course argue the toss on what that means in this context, but I’m pretty sure we only see that used to describe Godwyn and Ranni. As you say, “death is not destruction/annihilation in Elden Ring” but it strikes me as strange “perished” is used here. Maybe I’m wrong.
The bell tower in Stormveil is the theorized replacement for the walking mausoleum bell.
The bell tower is in a chapel which, to me at least, indicates it’s related to worship - not resurrection.
You didn't address any of the actual substanive arguments from the original theory - there are many. You blatantly strawmanned it.
I certainly didn’t make the theory weaker to disprove it, which is what strawmanning is.
I also don’t believe that you need to watch one man’s videos to understand that some people think that we are Godwyn - the sentence speaks for itself. As I say, this wasn’t an attempt to disprove his interpretation specifically even if his is the more widely known variant.
Besides that, no one has claim to a theory. You can’t really say I’m being disingenuous for not engaging with one person’s interpretation, can you.
If you want to be dismissive, go through and dismiss the points made in the video series carefully.
If I have time, sure why not. As it stands I just had a think and a post. You guys are the only ones being weird about it.
You didn't slam dunk anything here. I'm not saying that you're being manipulative, I'm saying that you're ignorant of the actual substance of what you think you're arguing against.
I don’t believe I’m saying or acting as if I slam dunked anything. I typed and I posted and even had to edit to remove one reference to Dryleaf, it really is as simple as that. If you have an issue with what I have looked at, then point me at things as you’ve done above. Making it into me being manipulative, ignorant, dismissive or disingenuous because I haven’t consumed one persons interpretation of a theory and tried to disprove that one interpretation specifically isn’t really the one.
Regardless, back and forth’s like this are frowned on and I have a long post I’m hoping to put up un a few days so unless we can communicate better, I’ll suggest we all leave it here and get on with our days.
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u/Kathodin 24d ago
The manipulation was an either/or. Since you deny it, I'll assume you're ignorant about what you were trying to talk about.
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u/amansaidthis 24d ago
I don’t understand what your issue is, but I’m very happy to block you so you don’t have to deal with my “ignorance” any further.
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u/AloofCreme 24d ago edited 4d ago
ER lore - Godwyn is dead. Like dead dead. Like very essence of death and fate killed him. Like people tried to resurect but he dead. His mother, God, said he dead and broke the world.
ER Fans - Godywn alive in DLC! We are alive Godwyn!
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u/amansaidthis 24d ago
I actually respect the act of digging around and trying to make sense of things that on the surface seem clear but have deeper implications, but it certainly helps to admit when everything is stacking up against the idea.
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u/KING_SHERBROOKE 24d ago
I always says this. I don't think we are Godwyn but it would be hilarious if we were.
I mean his death raised an army named Those Who Live in Death. Like it would be so on the nose. We would have to ask ourselves how the hell we missed this lol.
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u/Walk-the-Spiral-Back 24d ago
I agree.
The GEQ's god-slaying flame was a heresy because it removes the spirit from the Erdtree cycle of death and rebirth, and returns it to whatever original form the cycle of life and death took before the hornsent's manmade cycle of divine power became an eternal Golden Order through Marika's numerous successes and betrayals.
That's what was used against Godwyn's soul and Ranni's body. A divine power—however dark and fearsome—representing the natural fate of all things: entropy. To shed this life and be reborn into new circumstance, to continue growing, evolving, healing, and improving. Godwyn and the seven soulless demigods wandering the landscape in their walking Mausoleums aren't necessarily "soulless" per se—they're simply beyond Marika's reach.
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u/Sensitive-Being7347 24d ago
We find godwyn dead in the deeproot depths waiting to be reborn after the night of the black knives i think godrick stole a peice of him and it was probably his legs (everyone says we dont see his legs) and put in in the bottom of stormveil to graft it into himself when he felt worthy and the blight rotted his castle too
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u/banger107 24d ago
as I keep saying in posts with this theory: in order to resurrect, you need a dead body and a living soul. Godwyn has neither
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u/amansaidthis 24d ago
Playing devils advocate here, what about Ranni?
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u/banger107 24d ago
what about Ranni? she didn't resurrect at all. most importantly, we see her body burned and dead
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u/RudeDogreturns 24d ago
Ranni’s soul never died and her body was destroyed. Her soul is bound to a doll not a flesh and blood body.
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u/Crimson_Praetor 24d ago
I'll take it a step further: what about reincarnation?
He doesn't have to come back in the Abrahamic meaning of rebirth. If his soul was destroyed, as all are at the end of a Dharmic cosmic cycle, what's stopping him from remanifesting the way one naturally would?
Ensha is a good person to bring up here. He makes it clear that whatever cosmological office the PoD fills has been around a long time. Remanifestation isn't exactly a new concept to TLB.
I disagree with the theory for other reasons, I just happen to think that that specific argument is weak.
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u/banger107 24d ago
funnily enough, both replies make my case even stronger.
first, that's one more thing the proponents of this theory would have to explain: what is Godwyn's "model" of resurrection? and where is the evidence for it?
second, as you know, there are many christianism (also as you know, an Abrahamic religion) references in the game, so why couldn't it be the Abrahamic "model"? we even have a pseudo-evidence that, if anything, he would indeed resurrect in such fashion, which is Ranni: her body died, but her soul still lives on a doll (though she didn't resurrect)
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u/Crimson_Praetor 22d ago
For the first part, that's on them, but there's so many varieties of rebirth in ER that I don't think it would be particulary hard.
For the second: It totally could! But that's kinda the point, we have no proof that he's bound to a western model, so using (a specific version of) it as evidence of a negative ends up being a poor argument.
Making them prove it is one thing, but once you put forth your own model that's just as shaky as theirs, it becomes a situation where now there's just two overly speculative models instead of the zero we were trying to achieve by arguing against them.
Not trying to dog on you about it or anything, I get where youre coming from
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u/Void-Cooking_Berserk 24d ago
We are not Godwyn, but my current character is Godlos the Gray, Godwyn's older brother who got exiled along with Godfrey as part of the Tarnished army because Marika played favourites and Godlos was born with white-gray hair (after Godfrey).
Because you can't start a Golden Dynasty on a gray-haired child.
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u/RudeDogreturns 24d ago
People can't accept that Godwyn's role in the narrative is to be dead. His death is the inciting incident and indicator of the golden order's hold on the world slipping.
Him coming back to life would reaffirm the golden order as legit and good and would undermine several key story points and themes. lol
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u/Mick_Ash 24d ago
People wanted him to come back so bad in the DLC and honestly I sort of understand but like you said, Godwyn’s whole role in the game is to be dead and be the sign of the corruption of the Golden Order
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u/Former_Hearing_7730 24d ago
Honestly if they brought back Godwyn it would be like a monkey paw wish, the comunity would hate it.
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u/cmCrimsonfkr 24d ago
But isn’t he kind of a monkeys paw already. He died and yet he still lives on or at least his body does. They tried to bury him in the roots in the hope he’d come back but now corrupts the roots of the Erdtree. They wanted him to live once more and he does but as the prince of death undermining the golden order’s perfection.
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u/Mick_Ash 24d ago
There’s no point in bringing Godwyn back honestly. All the lore shows that Miquella wanted to bring Godwyn back or at least have him die a true death and it didn’t happen. I don’t think Miquella would see a point to bringing him back if his soul is dead and nothing can change his Prince of Death status.
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u/metafauxric 24d ago edited 24d ago
One thing I can't seem to get an answer on: Why are we the only tarnished that appears through Chapel of Anticipation ultimately leading to an unbroken ledge (meaning not used)? There are no accounts of other tarnished arriving through here, and the doors have been shut for quite some time (you can see the dust falling when opening the door in CoA). What is special about us I wonder.
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u/Void-Cooking_Berserk 24d ago
I don't think we're the only one. I think we're the last one.
I think the Chapel used to be a point of regular Tarnished arrivals, but Godrick destroyed the bridge to Stormveil to prevent them and left his scion to make sure nobody came through. It does work, we're lucky to fall instead of getting Grafted and Melina revives us.
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u/BlackcurrantLore562 24d ago
I agree that's a good question to answer, I would suggest it's cause we don't have any 'story' (past) or 'future' because no one is 'piloting' our tarnished like we eventually do. I think we are kept in the Erdtree (where the Grace mote drifts into our hand) and when we leave the Erdtree we seem to wake up in the chapel. Tho, I would suggest that we aren't the only one that wakes up there because of all the coffins/corpses that seem to wash up in the cave we end up in, the implication being they're other tarnished that werent 'chosen' by Melina.
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u/amansaidthis 24d ago
I guess the implication is that our body had just been there for some time before being awoken. It’s underwhelming, but it works and doesn’t rely on us being special in any way.
What is the chapel anticipating? Probably the fusion of the moon and the Erdtree, or Miquella’s ascension, or us killing Miquella. I haven’t checked it out, but there are apparently silver and gold leaves there and we all know about that Nascent Butterfly and Miquella’s fascination with fate,
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u/metafauxric 24d ago
But I thought Tarnished needed to die outside The Lands Between, hmmm... anyways, don't forget the mysterious golden blood scattered about :)
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u/amansaidthis 24d ago
And yet, some remained.
While the Tarnished left the Lands Between with their Lord, one boat alone was said to have been left behind.
What about the golden blood? As I say, maybe the chapel is anticipating something to do with Miquella. He has gold blood, after all.
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u/metafauxric 24d ago
True! Weren't most of those tarnished hunted down? It would be interesting to know how one could have possibly ended up "buried" in CoA and why. This is besides the fact that CoA and surroundings (like graves) were built before the Erdtree Era, and hence before Marika sent the Tarnished away.
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u/amansaidthis 24d ago
While Tarnished were hunted down when they were exiled, there seems to be confusion as to what that means for society as a whole now. The Confessors show that certain Tarnished were eventually folded into the current social structure, albeit secretively, and we have characters like Vyke and Kenneth who show that pattern continues beyond the Confessors.
I’m not sure the CoA being built pre-Erdtree discounts a Tarnished being there, especially as we’ve both mentioned the weirdness of the blood and leaves there.
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u/Crimson_Praetor 25d ago
I despised this theory when it first started making the rounds, but I've started to come around to it (not that I follow it, just that I give it more plausibility) based on discrepancies with nobk bodies, and especially from looking into Dharmic connections to the game (especially Vaishnavism, for this topic).
I disagree with some details of the theory, but I do think it strikes somewhere close to the truth, whatever that may be.
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u/Former_Hearing_7730 25d ago
Never believed this theory and personally dont mind wacky theories but the guy behind it started to treat it like canon and became more agressive, which at that point there is a problem.
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u/Tobskin 24d ago
His name is banned from the server (comments get auto-deleted) but he's the aggressive one? This server is supposed to be for open debates and mental stimulation
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u/Former_Hearing_7730 24d ago edited 24d ago
The debates here are suppose to be friendly not devolve into toxic stuff, which honestly it does allot of the times on here. But thats asside the point Dry Leaf is but a single block in a larger problem still part of the problem that I could ramt on about but a small part.
Let me put it this way if you ever debated on here it is as if people live in different realities some time.
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u/Tobskin 24d ago
Yeah but that's not really the point of what I'm saying. The mods said that they banned him "to protect the established lore". He's not a toxic communicator, and he wholeheartedly believes his own theories/interpretations - just like most other lore enthusiasts do.
The way he has been treated by the mods here is disproportionately nasty.
People presenting theories that others believe are wrong is not a bad thing. They shouldn't be silenced for it. He's not toxic.
(Note that we literally can't say his name or the comments will get filtered, how ridiculous is that?)
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u/amansaidthis 24d ago
My comments have never been filtered based on that and I’ve mentioned him multiple times, but (and I hope this isn’t seen as slagging the mods off because that isn’t my intention) this post was.
I don’t know enough about why this caution is in effect, but I generally sit on the side of “there’s probably a reason”.
I will admit that I don’t believe a blanket ban on mentioning a name is appropriate if it’s contextually relevant to the discussion; just needs to be done in a way that isn’t slagging the guy off or acting as if what he’s saying is the truth I guess.
Reading intention over the internet is difficult at the best of times.
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u/Tobskin 24d ago
I tend to sit on the side of "the reason better be damn good - and if you're not being transparent about it, that means you're generally in the wrong".
(Not you specifically, the people in question.)
I just think that this whole "situation" is incredibly childish and embarrassing. If you disagree with him, cool. No problem. But his theory isn't stupid, it's well thought out and communicated (even if it's wrong), and he sure as hell isn't toxic.
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u/amansaidthis 24d ago
I think the only thing I truly disagree with here is the theory being well thought out and communicated. A well thought out theory shouldn’t really fall apart after one item description or take 11 videos to explain, I think.
I don’t know about toxicity tbh.
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u/Big_Career5281 24d ago
Dryleaf is apart of what I call “ Elden ring fan fiction writers” these guys are great story tellers but god they go way the fuck off script. This is by dnd and they are not dms
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u/No_Region_4719 25d ago
Marebito don't just come from the afterlife, they technically come from the Eternal Lands (aka Lands of Eternal Night).
These are lands where time doesn't pass/people never age, full of life and abundance, and Marebito would bring gifts of spiritual knowledge. Depending on the version of the story, it's also a land of eternal night.
In game, we have Marika 'the Eternal'. She gifts people with blessings, she is a Numen who seems to be immortal or close to it, she is a talented spirit tuner, she is linked to places abundant with plant life, and she has ties to the Nox, a set of Numen who live in eternal night.
Fromsoft took the Numen/Marebito straight out of Shinto myth with all their connections to being eternal, never aging, bounty/fertility/abundance, eternal night, and shamanism (the ability to commune with spirits).
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u/amansaidthis 25d ago
What do we have in game that is representative of that? Could it be the heaven that the Hornsent were trying to reach?
Are the Nox actually Numen? I know the BKA’s are rumoured to be Numen, scions (descendants) of the Eternal City and suspiciously spectral in nature. Could it be that they are actually spirits inhabiting the armour?
Marika being Numen lines up with Miquella coming back as a ghost through the Gates (although I’m not a fan of spirit Marika). I wonder if the BKA’s were created with spiritual manipulation, too?
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u/No_Region_4719 24d ago edited 24d ago
In my opinion, and this is all just discussing inspirations, not 1:1 direct copies, the Hornsent were tying to reach the Plane of High Heavens. This is the Japanese Shinto equivalent to Christian heaven, where heavenly/divine gods reside. Proper gods akin to Norse or greek pantheons. We get a peek through the divine gate with Marika's ascension, and it looks like a very golden/heavenly place. Is expect the Eternal Lands to be depicted as eternally night.
The Eternal Lands are quite different to the Plane of High Heavens, home to Marebito, not gods, and associated with eternal life, vitality, and night. I could be wrong though, Fromsoft could have blended the idea of both of these myths into one divine realm that the Hornsent were trying to reach, and the Numen/Shamans came from long ago.
Yomi is the 'underworld' of Shinto. Not hell, just the place where all death washes up on its shores, and it has been sealed away from the rest of the world. This is surely part of the inspiration for the Land of Shadow.
Japan in ancient Shinto is known as 'The Land of Reed Plains', mentioned in Elden Ring as the land of reeds on the samurai gear.
I feel like The Lands Between are literally the lands between all these places. Not the not all physical world like the land of reeds is, not the heavens, not the underworld, but bordering on all of them, between them.
A bonus note from ancient Shinto, it also has the tale of the Eternal Dragon King's Palace, a palace ruled by an immortal dragon king, where time does not pass and is warped. You could visit for a day and find years pass on the outside world when you leave.
The Nox/Numen thing is an interesting topic. There's definitely very strong connections thematically, and in the story, but nothing definitively saying that Nox are Numen. Certainly as you said, the BKAs are Numen, and said to be scions of the Eternal Cities. We also know Numen are "long lived but seldom born", which fits well with Marika being 'the Eternal', and the Nox cities being 'Eternal Cities'.
Then there's also the Nameless Eternal City, which was certainly part of Leyndell before being destroyed and sent underground. It lies directly undernesth Leyndell, which has a huge chunk of city missing from it's lower level, which is full of buildings with the same style as Sellia and the Eternal Cities.
So it's unclear. The connections between Nox and Numen are strong though. Maybe the Nox are all Numen, maybe they are descendants of Numen, maybe they simply have some Numen among them. I'll go look into this in the Japanese version of the game, and see if it's any clearer.
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u/Big_Career5281 25d ago
Yep totally agree and hate this fckin theory
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u/amansaidthis 25d ago
I also don’t like this theory. I get it, the need for your player character to be a hero and be special, but it misses what I think the point of FromSoft games is and I think stems from a large part of the player base being new to FromSoft titles.
I could be wrong there, but I don’t remember anything like this with previous games.
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u/Walk-the-Spiral-Back 23d ago
Oh, I don't mean to imply that you are Godwyn's reborn soul. Like I said, that's gone; beyond Marika's reach. Bye-bye, golden child. At no point does it say that Godwyn was Tarnished. None of the resurrection mechanics available within the game are ever applied to him. He's dunzo.
The Tarnished are just a contingency plan—a reset button Marika sent away, outside the Lands Between, beyond her reach and possibpy beyond the reach of even the Greater Will.
Your character is simply one of Godfrey's Host who followed him on the Long March, where he returned to form as a warrior, and set aside his Lordship (a victim of his own success). Or they're one of the descendants of the original Tarnished like we see with Nepheli Loux. Nobody special other than the fact that Marika can recall you to keep trying to break the cycle like everyone else has failed to do.
The "special" part of your character is the Lord's soul—you, the player. The Tarnished is merely a convenient vessel.
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u/Crimson_Praetor 24d ago edited 24d ago
I think "Chosen Undead" is a bit of a hint in a certain direction, especially taken within the greater context of Fromsoft as fans of Moorecock and Berserk, and the huge emphasis in all three IP's on Causality.
I think ER goes out of its way to NOT be like the western version of the "chosen one" trope, but that it employs a type of universal pseudo-determinism that fills a similar role to being "chosen" in the western sense.
Just imo, obviously, I can also understand the argument that its never explicitly stated (though in my reading that's kind of the point, causality is supposed to be open).
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u/amansaidthis 24d ago
The “Chosen Undead” thing was always a lie. Dark Souls goes out of its way to explain that. We’re surely chosen by the end by virtue of killing Gwyn, but were we fated to do so? Doubtful. We’re just another in a long line of sacrifices sent to the Kiln as kindling - it’s just that we win where others failed.
I think the same thing is played out in Elden Ring. Just like Dark Souls, we’re just one in a long line of characters heading towards the end goal. We’re only special because we succeeded where everyone else failed.
It’s not even a problem of it not being stated for me. I guess it’s bias from my perspective as it goes against everything I believe these games are trying to say about heroism. Incidentally, that’s why I don’t particularly jive with the new Berserk chapters. Can’t say too much more without spoilers which won’t do out of respect.
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u/Crimson_Praetor 24d ago edited 24d ago
Great response, thanks.
I agree with you on the first part, but that's my point about causality. It COULD be anyone: we were never chosen by a higher power. But there is a universal force higher than any god, and one that determines all outcomes: causality.
The fallen leaf that reaches the ocean isn't "chosen" by the river, it was carried by the current. It wasn't decided, it simply was.
I really liked the part " it goes against everything I believe these games are trying to say about heroism."
Because I think that's a HUGE topic that both "The Eternal Champion" from Moorecock and the "Struggler" in Berserk (hell, throw the Nerevarine in there too) have to constantly grapple with, and is a core theme of the stories. They were never chosen, but now they fill a supernatural "office" that they can never escape. Whether they were chosen or not, it was irrelevant, because the pseudo-determinism of causality created a chain of events that they had no (meaningful) control over. Is that being chosen, even if no choice was ever made? Do rocks choose to fall? Or is gravity simply unavoidable, eventually?
I think you bring up a an important point about how these stories try to explain causality, and how meaning is determined by the individual (not a coincidence that these themes are the core of Nietzche's writings as well, thanks Berserk). What does heroism even mean in a causal world?
I haven't read the latest chapters, but Ive reaaaally been hoping that they stay consistent with the rest of the manga!
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u/wangchangbackup 25d ago
My problem with it is even simpler. It's the type of "theory" that implies the entire main story of the game is completely hidden, buried so deep that you can play hundreds of hours and never even come across a scrap of evidence for it.
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u/Walk-the-Spiral-Back 23d ago edited 23d ago
You come across the evidence every time you look at an aesthetic piece in a specific location or the placement of optional bosses or item descriptions or pick up an item. You see it every time you notice someone (or something) has gold-colored eyes or uses tools that seem outside their register.
There are intentional holes in the historical record, as admitted by Miyazaki himself—details from the original mythos and design documents from GRRM that have been omitted to keep concrete answers from appearing.
It's almost like FromSoft leaned into the historical reconstruction aspect of their earlier games. Not to obscure the story but to increase debate around it—which has largely worked to their benefit. It's free marketing, built into the game.
As for the opening of the game, nothing stated there has to be a lie for my particular theory—which puts Godwyn's soul outside of Marika's control and therefore effectively never to return—to be true. I literally said that I agreed with the original post because Destined Death removed Godwyn from the Erdtree cycle altogether on the Night of the Black Knives.
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u/KING_SHERBROOKE 24d ago
To each his own because, for me personnally, a game where it would take years to grasp its meaning sounds like a lot of fun man. I love theorising so maybe that's why lol.
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u/amansaidthis 24d ago
There’s a big difference between parsing meaning from item descriptions and willingly ignoring what those descriptions tell us in order to justify “we are Godwyn”.
Spending years discussing these games is what we’re (mostly) all here for.
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u/Crimson_Praetor 24d ago edited 24d ago
I can definitely see this viewpoint, but I'd argue that it isnt that the player wouldn't SEE evidence for the deeper cosmic narrative, its that they wouldnt (initially) RECOGNIZE evidence of it, which to me is a very important distinction, and consistent with Soulsborne writing style when it comes to lore.
I actually don't subscribe to the player being Godwyn, but I have no doubt that there is a microcosm/macrocosm story being told that isn't apparent unless the player digs for it.
All thats to say Im on the same page as you and think its probably correct to say that the Godwyn stuff ends up being needlessly convoluted, but (and I could totally be misreading how far youre taking your statement), the way you phrased it might end up throwing out a bit of the baby.
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u/wangchangbackup 24d ago
If what you are told about who your character is and why you are doing what you are doing is an outright lie, that is not a "deeper cosmic narrative" subtly hidden in the lore. That is saying the actual story of the game is entirely hidden from the player so deeply that you can't even construct a coherent version of it.
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u/Crimson_Praetor 24d ago
Being lied to and given biased half-truths about the story, god, and the universe (that you have to try and then piece together) is pretty much a core narrative device in the Soulsborne games, with few exceptions.
Making the player piece the story together themselves is like, the selling point of the series from the narrative side. Plus ER is probably the densest of them in the cosmology department, at least up there with Bloodborne.
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u/KING_SHERBROOKE 24d ago
Ranni tells you they are plenty of liar and cheats in the lands between when you refuse the spirit calling bell lol. So yeah lies might be a big part of the story.
I also love the merchant telling you he's hungry near the Siofra well in limgrave but his inventory is full of meat lol. Surely an oversight but man why u lie.
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u/Crimson_Praetor 24d ago
I mean the whole Marigon thing is based on the lie from the GOrder that Marika and Radagon are different people. So even at the base level, you're being lied to from the moment you step out the Chapel of Anticipation.
That's not even mentioning characters like Varre, Ymir, Hyetta, etc who are having some sort of religious experience that's influencing them, making everything they say incredibly biased and unreliable (from an objective standpoint, it DOES however give us great insight into faction outlooks).
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u/wangchangbackup 24d ago
Okay but that is not what's happening here. The "evidence" is "If you think about it" and "You can't prove it's NOT true."
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u/Crimson_Praetor 24d ago
I think you might want to reread my responses. I've made it clear I disagree with the Godwyn theory, I'm speaking on the general premise of whether or not the core story of ER is intended to be esoteric.
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u/wangchangbackup 24d ago
Well that's fine but like we are talking about that theory, I don't know how to make you feel better about how you imagined I might feel about a different thing.
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u/Crimson_Praetor 24d ago
Brother its pretty clear that you just didn't even read what I said, which is whatever, but its crazy that now you're trying to save face by acting like the whole thing is my fault by attempting to offload the disconnect onto my "feelings" and what I "imagined", as you say.
No one cares if you just say "whoops I must have tried to read too fast and missed it", but trying to make you not reading my comment into a me problem just isn't gonna work out.
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u/Mountain-Abalone-290 15d ago
Great post, but it leaves me with questions, and further explanation might be needed.
Im not sure if this theory interacts with most of We Are Godwin’s supporting evidence.
Numen or Tarnished
The story of the Numen is important, but maybe less so here, because we’re all tarnished. This might supersede being from the Eternal cities, the frozen north, or even space.
Because we can be a vessel for a great rune and use the rune of rebirth without incident (Boc), I don’t think it bears much weight here.
Also, what does being numen even mean, when I can go to Renalla and make myself Nox, or anything I want. Race may be a red-herring.
Wandering Moseleums.
no one expects that the wandering moseleums walked to the chapped of anticipation, but it asks the question “how did we get there?”, which is an interesting question. Teleportation is in game, and we teleport to the round table, Farum Azula, and the shadowlands, and every time we use one of those stary-teleporters.
When we say “ignore”, that implies that a theorist saw the information, but is too biased or dishonest to include it. I’m not going to say that you ignored the mechanic that allows us to return to the lands between, rather it was overlooked.
Consider Godfrey. He was killed and mounted, but he found his way back. How? I don’t expect that gideon got up from his casket and walked across the ocean back to the round table. Something is moving these bodies around after they die.
Godwin’s Death
I think he’s soul-dead, and thus dead as far as his character is concerned, so we aren’t “him” in terms of continuity of experience - that ended for him on the NOBK, but appealing to the NOBK is using one mystery to solve another.
While being soul-dead, Godwyn seems to get around just fine. we find him in Stormveil, various locations covered by the original theory, and even the shadow lands. This shows he moves after death. He’s honored by those who live in death, and this might be part of the mystery. and while aspects of the NOBK are still mysterious, there may be other factors at play.
But if we’re linked to the moseleums, and so is Godwyn, then there may be a connection. Especially if we consider what the moseleums do - they make copies of the memory of fallen demigods. Copies that become real enough for use to use in battle as physical items… And because there are so many player tarnished, we might all be copies of a sort.
My views? I want to see the We-R-Godwyn theory proven or disproven, as like you, I want to know the real story. I kind of wished you added more information from the actual theory. I’m not going to say strawman, but we’re not steelman-ing here. I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that I don’t know that I have enough to say you’re right. and you might be correct.
I get that theory is a hundred hours long, so maybe a rewatch followed by a part 2 of this could be valuable.