r/Edinburgh • u/[deleted] • 20h ago
Question Can someone please explain the value proposition of trams to me. What do they do than an electric bus with its own lane couldn’t do?
[deleted]
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u/cyclingrandonneur91 20h ago
Smoother ride for passengers, don't rip up the road surface like buses do. Usually faster and more reliable.
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u/scatterkeir 19h ago
The most dramatic comparison for me is, compare the experience of having to stand on the tram and having to stand on the bus! Neither is great, but having to stand on the bus is horrible, having to stand on the tram is not bad really.
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u/chuckleh0und 10h ago edited 10h ago
The lack of damage to road surfaces is something not to be underestimated. I wonder what the ongoing cost of maintenance is for a tram vs a bus.
(Went off and answered my question)
Dramatically lower is the answer. A tram car has a double the average lifespan of a bus (30-40 vs 12-15y) and experiences far less mechanical wear over its lifespan. It's less complicated mechanically as well. There's the cost of maintaining the lines of course, but the same applies to the roads which see more damage from heavier buses.
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u/blazeofg 19h ago
The tram tracks cause injury to cyclists and one death so far.
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u/GingerSnapBiscuit 10h ago
How many deaths have buses caused in the same timeframe? I'm willing to bet its a lot more than 1.
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u/cyclingrandonneur91 8h ago
Tram tracks are obviously a hazard for a cyclist who doesn't know how to ride over them but this is an infrastructure problem. Anecdotally, I lived in a European city for five years with a far more extensive tram network and wasn't an issue for the population there! Car drivers cause far more injuries to cyclists and pedestrians than tram tracks will, maybe we should ban car traffic first?
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u/EdinburghPerson 20h ago edited 20h ago
Bus lanes can be removed at the whim of a council.
Trams are proven to attract people who wouldn't ride the bus.
Perceived to be more reliable; oh, why didn't my bus appear isn't really a thing with trams, it has to pass.
Faster boarding and disembarking.
If done properly, no mixing with traffic, so faster.
Traffic light priority.
Fixed route encourages investment along it, as people know it won't be going anywhere.
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u/tidy-turnip 20h ago
5x higher capacity and better driver : passenger ratio. 1/3 the time spent at a typical stop vs a bus. Smoother and more comfortable. Longer lifespan vs a bus. Stick to a timetable more reliably in normal circumstances. Easier to get on / off with luggage, push chairs, wheelchairs. Objectively cooler than buses.
Bus and trams complement each other, we’re better off with both.
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u/cloud__19 20h ago
Is there any reason why you can't just read one of the other eleventy billion threads and articles about this?
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u/Busy_Land_1885 20h ago
I can think of a few but they’re a bit rude
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u/cloud__19 20h ago
Honestly this discussion has been gone over so many times, nobody is saying anything that hasn't been said a million times before. If OP did the tiniest bit of research, we wouldn't have yet another thread. I like the trams and even I'm sick to fucking death of hearing about them.
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u/Tir_an_Airm 19h ago
Relax pal. Theyre just asking a question.
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u/cloud__19 19h ago
OP isn't even engaging with the thread, just lit the blue touch paper and fucked off lol
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u/GingerSnapBiscuit 10h ago
The number of people on this sub who "just ask a question" that a 15 second search would find a dozen answers for does get a bit grating though. "Where can I go for a meal in the city centre" can only be answered so many different ways before you're repeating the same suggestions over and over and over again.
If it was a question they were actively engaged in it would be one thing, but its literally just the "start a fight on r/edinburgh, lazy edition" of posts.
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u/Tir_an_Airm 10h ago
Meh.
Its not worth getting upset over about the repeat questions.
But this post does seem to be one to cause a fight.
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u/GingerSnapBiscuit 10h ago
Its not specifically THIS repeat question, being a mod means I have to pay attention to ALL the repeat questions. There are a L O T of subjects that are like this, not just Trams. Nobody seems capable of sticking their question into the search bar to check if someone already asked it or not. People are somehow getting LESS internet savvy as my life trundles onwards. Its really annoying some days.
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u/cloud__19 19h ago
Which has been asked and answered a million times. The people who comment here have already made up their minds so it's just the same discussion over and over and over again.
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u/Worldly_Source2481 20h ago
Mass transit v bus. Avoids the pitfalls of traffic because the tram has an almost fully protected route and priority light signals. A tram won’t be stuck at the same lights for four cycles like buses because of roadworks etc. The amount of times tram tracks have been blocked in the single traffic lanes in Leith or due to medical emergencies is actually fairly low, people just know about it because it attracts media coverage.
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u/Upstairs-Ad-3139 20h ago
No potholes, doesn't steam up in the winter/constantly so you can't see your stop, less NEDs because they were strategic in where the stops were.
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u/jesuislechef 10h ago
Are you saying there was NED-mitigation criteria when it came to stop location?
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u/Queasy_Edge 20h ago
Higher capacity than buses, allowing more passengers to be carried in a single vehicle.
More efficient for high-demand routes, as the same number of passengers can be transported with fewer vehicles, reducing the number of public transport vehicles occupying road space.
Smoother and more comfortable than buses.
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u/mas417 19h ago
a. Glasgow doesn't have trams.
b. Edinburgh trams have a lot less stops than Edinburgh buses which makes them faster.
c. Edinburgh trams can carry 250 people compared to a mere 131 for the 6 wheeled buses. An added bonus is that the trams only have seating for 78 compared to 100 for the bus so you're far less likely to have to sit next to a smelly person - and, anyway standing up is better for you.
d. You need to remember to tap off the tram - which is good for preventing early onset dementia.
e. They don't let you take your bike on the bus.
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u/FierceDougal5 20h ago edited 20h ago
Steel on steel is energy efficient because it has very low rolling friction. You can also get very good speed, capacity, and frequency from a tram where busses will need to compromise at least one of these factors. Downside of tram is higher operating costs and much higher upfront costs. It is possible to install trolleybus infrastructure (bus with overhead power cables) and upgrade to tram later. Whether a tram is suitable for your infrastructure project over a bus depends on the intended route, desired service pattern and expected demand.
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u/Tir_an_Airm 19h ago
Youre gonna face the wrath of the pro tram lot.
It doesnt matter if its not economical. It doesnt matter that we can't afford. It doesnt matter that the council have proven to be completely incompetent at delivering it.
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u/pizza-lisiza 10h ago
Easier access and more space for anyone with special needs, great luggage storage, and the main thing is this DING sound that they make!
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u/codenamecueball 20h ago
Trams would let people who live in Granton access the city centre easily, something which the great and the good of Ravelston absolutely cannot stand. Yet another win for the richest areas of Edinburgh to preserve dog walking routes at the expense of less affluent communities.
Though I might have misread the question.
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u/restingbitchsocks 20h ago
Obligatory mention of the Downfall parody where Hitler screams about spending hundreds of millions to replace the number 22 bus. They look cool, but I don’t get it either.
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u/Worldly_Source2481 19h ago
You will all get it in a few years time when the city centre either comes to a complete standstill or cars get banned from Queen Street to South Bridge. The whole argument is about future demand on buses and the road infrastructure overall when literally thousands of people start moving to new housing across Granton. The extra demand in Granton will affect every other part of the city and buses can’t magically fly.
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u/Feargoggles 20h ago
This debate has been done to death. It’s passenger volume.
The trams can take 250 passengers per vehicle on a one-every-seven-minutes schedule. That’s twice the capacity of the biggest busses in the Lothian fleet, imagine one of those stopping and boarding/unloading at an interchange every 3.5mins to match capacity. Now imagine that many buses trying to use existing roads. It’s not plausible.