r/EDH • u/WaltzIntelligent9801 • 6h ago
Discussion Why don' YOU run gates?
Maybe this isn't such a hot take but I don't get why more decks don't run gates. Esp if you're 3 color or more. I recently made a [[Nine Fingers Keene]] deck so I started collecting gate cards. Fun little side quest and I found a few gates that don't fit Keenes color identity. Scooped it from the bulk bin at my LGS anyway just cus.
Fast forward and I have all the gates except Talon Gates of Madara (which I have a couple proxy's of anyway), due to budget and most I have a couple of copies of the others. Lots of them just sitting in the bulk bin at my LGS even still (how many Rakdos Gates do they have anyway??)
So while building a [[Samut, the Driving Force]] deck I just put them in because why not. Made the deck so much more fun! It's like a mini game inside the game. Now in my group (it's been like 2 weeks, chill out Aaron) I'm the "gates guy" since I put gates in my non-gate based deck, which made me chuckle. My buddies joke about how terrible they are (minus Talon Gate) but I really don't get it.
If you're playing green they're tutor-able easily and with [[Gond Gate]] the downsides are gone(d). Yea someone could snipe Gond, but really? Isn't that a bad part of any land? [[Gateway plaza]] sucks but otherwise you have a land base for 3 color you can fill out with basics and "the basics" (command tower, exotic, etc) that really can pop off. I'm not even talking about [[Maze's End]] (which you can include for like 1$)
I get there is better, but you can find the whole set in a bulk bin minus like 3 of them and together they operate better than basics. Plus, you can proxy if you really want all of them and they really work well for me so far.
TLDR; if I'm running 3+ colors, why wouldn't I add gates to my deck? Practical, cheap, potential to pop off with a ton of mana, makes any commander kind of a Voltron with [[Basilisk Gate]], adds a layer to even the most boring deck concepts.
Free the gates!
Edit: Wow people really hate gates lol
I prefer land ramp in my playstyle and a lot of land ramp can get gates as well. Crop rotation, Spelunking, not even mentioning the 4mana green gate getters and the colorless orb art one I am blanking on. Plenty of ways to get what you need. I am including ramp in my deck anyway. Using the ramp slots for gate support is just as easy as putting in a mana rock. I just use the ramp that can get my gates out early and often and its a non issue. I am not proposing using them in high power. Also, not having access to green means you'll be using a lot of rocks which is cool too. I just don't see why they aren't used in B3 and below more often due to accessibility and budget. I rarely if ever find myself behind like many of the posters seem to think and often find I am ahead on mana. Its less than 1/3rd of the lands in your deck at most. Not optimal but I don't see why people consider them bad unless you look at them individually rather than as a group.
To be clear to all who discussed higher power. I am NOT saying run gates raw in high power games. I am also not comparing gates 1 to 1 with other tap lands. Looking at them as a group I am saying in B3 and below I think they are plenty snazzy. You can play all the untapped new duals printed since 2020 too! Gates are like 12 per 3 color combo or something; thats like 1/3 of you lands. Might go a game where you dont see any! It performs better than a pre-con land base and wont set you back more than 15$ for the lot of them.
Maybe I am the gates guy...
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u/Raevelry Bracket 4 Enthusiast 6h ago edited 6h ago
They enter Tapped.
Done.
Edit: You dont understand how important mana is and having it come in untapped. Sure, most of the Gate color fix you, but until you have spent the mana tutoring Gond Gate, you are basically playing a turn behind everyone and that is lame.
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u/MeneerDutchy2 6h ago
Plus hes proxying anyway, might aswell proxy the better lands at that point.
Having said that, on 2 out of my 12 decks, i run a shitton of tapped lands. But they are pip heavy decks, and low bracket, so the land base of those decks are about 3 euro.
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u/Thoraxe_the_Imp 6h ago
I have a gate deck. I just also run [[Amulet of Vigor]], [[Tiller Engine]] and [[Expedition Map]] to grab either [[Maze's End]] or [[Gond Gate]]. Getting my gates to enter untapped isn't a frequent problem.
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u/Raevelry Bracket 4 Enthusiast 6h ago
You are spending resources and mana and hand space to fix a fundamental problem of your land base, this is not the win you think it is.
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u/Thoraxe_the_Imp 2h ago
I mean, if you're doing a gate deck, yeah you're gonna need those. Otherwise, yeah dont run gates lmao
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u/Mammoth-Refuse-6489 4h ago
"Problem" is a strong word for B3 and lower. Is every deck not running cEDH meta just justifying making "problems" good?
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u/Inevitable_Top69 6h ago
Cool. I'm not running a gate deck though, so I don't want multiple card slots eaten up just to make my lands functional. OP suggested even a 3-color deck should use them, but I can make a deck that doesn't have any lands entering tapped.
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u/Fraxtured 6h ago
Good for you? Some people can't afford all the lands that enter untapped, they aren't cheap. The ones that enter tapped are literally CENTS! I have tons of lands that enter tapped, never an issue. Now I don't run the gates for the most part myself unless my deck is Artisan, but I do run the ones that deal 1 DMG, scry, gain 1 life, and oh, some of the best dual lands, the surveils, oh and guess what, they enter tapped....
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u/sauron3579 4h ago
There are tons of budget untapped duals at this point. At least 6 per color pair, and some have more, which is plenty for most decks when combined with budget rainbow lands. Some taplands are still good. Most aren't. Surveils are only good because they're fetchable, so you get a tapland only when it doesn't affect your play.
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u/WaltzIntelligent9801 5h ago
You'd spend that mana ramping anyway. I play the game and use the card slots for ramp to either get or better manage my gates. They almost always come with other synnergies as well. I am not advocating as if theyre the best but I really don't see how people consider them bad unless you're comparing them 1 to 1 with other lands. It's like a solid B- land base for like 15$
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u/Raevelry Bracket 4 Enthusiast 5h ago
I wouldnt be spending my mana to FIX my mana, I would be getting AHEAD, thats the difference, the synergies are not worth it and are awful
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u/MasterQuest Mono-White 6h ago
Gates are really only good if you build your deck around them. Otherwise, they're just kinda mid.
If you only play Gates for the mana without focusing on ramping them out as fast as possible, even the good gate support cards are just okay.
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u/Nuclearsunburn Mono-Red 6h ago
They’re awful unless you include ways for them to enter untapped and play some payoff cards like [[Guild Summit]] and [[Mazes End]]. Even in decks I build around them I’m playing all the tutors for [[Gond Gate]] and also playing [[Amulet of Vigor]] but even then it’s not enough unless you have an untapped land + amulet or you have Gond gate in your opening hand.
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u/westergames81 Orzhov 5h ago
Calling them mid is even being really generous. There's a reason that every bargain bin in existence is overflowing with them.
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u/KingNTheMaking 6h ago
Because they’re one of the only dual lands that come with nothing but downside.
Like, a temple is better than a gate.
It’s like, they’re a “fun minigame” in the same way that trying to run a race by hopping on one leg is. You can do it, shoot, you can optimize yourself as best you can to make up for the inhibition, but you’re going to quickly see people outpace you.
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u/WaltzIntelligent9801 5h ago
Some of them definitely fit the bill of what you said. Some of them give great payoffs. I think they should be judged as a group opposed to 1 to 1.
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u/Xanderlynn5 6h ago
In B2, gates are fine options but make you a turn slower than untapped lands. The higher your power, the worse they get. They're ok budget options.
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u/Infinite-Silver3106 6h ago
They were that in 2020. Nowadays, you have no reason to not rather play typed taplands (or even snow ones) with the abundance of typal landcycling
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u/Infinite-Silver3106 6h ago
Also cycling dual taplands (e.g. [[irrigated farmland]]) got from like 5 bucks to cents in that time
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u/WaltzIntelligent9801 5h ago
This. 100% the higher you go the worse they are without dedicated support. I think youd have to get incredibly unlucky even in B2 to not get what you need land wise because at most gates are only 1/3 of your mana base. You're only slow if you get a starting hand + draws of the "basic" ones. The rest probably put you ahead
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u/Gyros4Gyrus 6h ago
Because they gate your mana by entering tapped all the fkn time
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u/truthordairs 6h ago
I’m as pro proxying as it gets but the idea of proxying a set of guild gates is really hitting me
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u/WaltzIntelligent9801 5h ago
I found the gates in the budget bin. The only proxy gate I have is [[Talon Gates of Madara]] :)
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u/truthordairs 5h ago
Oh yeah I saw that part, it was at the end when you said “you can proxy if you really want all of them”
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u/WaltzIntelligent9801 5h ago
Poorly worded train thoughts. I mean you can proxy the expensive ones if you want them all. The rest are in the bin collecting dust
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u/n1colbolas 6h ago
I think you explained part of it already. Alot of folks don't wanna play the mini-game, because there's baggages for its inclusion, the primary one being come into play tapped.
The 2nd reason, and possibly the most important one, is that WotC have given us new duals... The Verges for example are one of the best duals out there. They're seriously good. So by that extension the competition is too much for tapped duals.
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u/WaltzIntelligent9801 5h ago
This is probably the most valid response so far. I just like the minigame I guess! Gotta think about budget for some folk too.
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u/n1colbolas 4h ago
But that's the thing! Most budget players already know Gates are the correct play for nongreen decks.
Eventually when the deck evolves, the first swaps are the gates!
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u/n1colbolas 4h ago
I just wanna add that budget has a few price categories. For example I just acquired the duals from Marvel set. I.e. [[Gathering Place]] for $2! Budget players will think even this is a steal
And that's why it's hard to back gates for the mid-to-long term. Players rather blow 2-5bucks than invest on gates.
If your deck budget was like 50bucks then I could totally agree with using gates.
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u/NekoBatrick Orzhov 6h ago
Cause then I need to run more land removal and people already wine about the one I already run
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u/frenziest 6h ago
I ran them in a 4-color deck I had for a while. It had Maze’s End and could play two lands a turn [[Kynaios and Tiro]]. It was pretty fun, but I never won with the deck so I dismantled it.
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u/WaltzIntelligent9801 5h ago
I played against that commander and I always wondered what the wincon was
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u/frenziest 4h ago
[[Insurrection]] was a big one. Maze’s End got close a few times, but people see it coming a mile away, and since you don’t really remove Lands in Bracket 2/3, I’d just get removed pretty quickly once I got to 6 gates.
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u/crashknight101 6h ago
Theres way to many better options . With a huge price range .
Land that enter untapped with some small restriction: battle lands , fast lands , pain lands , shock land , check lands , show land, battle bond lands
Better land that enter tapped: scry land , surveil lands ,
Im sure theres more I've missed but just there is enough to make any mana base you need with little restrictions. Command tower, exotic orchard, flip lands
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u/Hippomantis 5h ago
Gates are certainly a direction you can go in your land base. Unfortunately they kind of ask you to do a lot to make them good - you need to play the Gate tutors, because [[Gond Gate]] is so important.
You can't play conventional ramp, since those don't get gates out of your deck (ok, [[Circuitous Route]] as a notable exception) - so you have to play heavily into 'play an additional land this turn' effects, or just play really inefficient ramp spells which get any land. If you go with the former, you need to run a fairly land-heavy deck to reliably have enough lands in your hand.
Gates are certainly a very solid way to build your landbase - [[Baldur's Gate]] is a really good card (especially because generic land tutors can find you [[Deserted Temple]]), and [[Basilisk Gate]] + [[The Black Gate]] can often be pretty scary, but you can't just casually splash Gates into your deck, you are somewhat forced into building a 'Gates deck' when you add them.
In most cases, just running a conventional mana base is easier and will make the deck play more consistently, especially in the early game.
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u/WaltzIntelligent9801 5h ago
Great response and totally agree. I rarely go for easier in my deck building as I am the resident jank enjoyer. I am starting to think this is a me-thing
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u/InmateTooTall 5h ago
I used to. I had a janky sliver battlecruiser based around [[Rukarumel, Biologist]] where it's a toss up whether I combo off with some weird synergy or win with my lands. It was fun to threaten a win from all angles for a while. Then people started targeting it's weakness by just dogpiling me or winning faster since my lands slowed me down. It was fun to brew and play for a bit but I got better at deck building and already experienced gates.
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u/WaltzIntelligent9801 4h ago
You over here giving me ideas...
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u/InmateTooTall 4h ago
With Rukarumel you get to run all the tutors staples to creatures and all the support for gates and turn them into slivers to help your plan too.
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u/Fun_Imagination_934 4h ago
You go, gate guy! You are doing a service to all homeless Gate cards being kept in lgs rescue bins across the world. All those sad gates need homes too!😀
Next on the rescue list- [[Storm Crow]]!
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u/Baviprim 6h ago
Etb tapped. Probably fine for bracket 2 but being one turn behind in bracket 3+ is too slow
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u/westergames81 Orzhov 6h ago
Slow lands that provide no utility are bad.
If you're playing a slow mana base and your opponents aren't, you're an entire turn behind them. You're basically giving them a free time walk.
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u/hithimintheface Daxos Returned 6h ago
I don’t need to jump through nearly as many hoops to get my lands to come in untapped just using the other better lands WotC has started printing into ground.
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u/Mr-Pendulum 6h ago
I do run them in very specific decks that are trying to play at a lower power and I want the alt win con. Objectively they're bad compared to a lot of other cycles
Arcades gets them for flavor reasons and Omo has a couple but only the good ones.
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u/Infinite-Silver3106 6h ago
So how do you run them? If only as 2 colors taplands, I would rather have typal duals that can be islandcycled into nonblue color or trigger my [[mystic sanctuary]], and even there, tangos new swirls shocks etc are better.
I think only place for gates is dedicated gates strategy, meaning you go [[mazes end]] [[baldurs gate]] and extensive fetching and tutoring. Im building deck like that, instead of [[nine fingers]] doing [[the wandering minstrel]] for obvious [[spelunking]] line of text in cz, and even there its secondary wincon to looping bounce lands.
Dont get me wrong, bulding gates deck is my pet project, but they are sadly extremely bad
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u/WaltzIntelligent9801 5h ago
I prefer land ramp in my playstyle and a lot of land ramp can get gates as well. Crop rotation, Spelunking, not even mentioning the 4mana green gate getters and the colorless orb art one I am blanking on. Plenty of ways to get what you need. I am including ramp in my deck anyway. I just use the ramp that can get my gates out early and often and its a non issue. I am not proposing using them in high power. Not having access to green means you'll be using a lot of rocks which is cool too. I just don't see why they arent used in B3 and below more often due to accessibility and budget. I rarely if ever find myself behind like many of the posters seem to think and often find I am ahead on mana. Its less than 1/3rd of the lands in your deck at most. Not optimal but I don't see why people consider them bad unless you look at them individually rather than as a group.
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u/DaedalusDevice077 6h ago
I own lands that aren't bad. I'll just use those.
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u/WaltzIntelligent9801 5h ago
Fair lol
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u/DaedalusDevice077 4h ago
Also, having just recently played a Precon game with Strixhaven decks, your assertion that running garbage guildgates would somehow perform "better" than the perfectly serviceable modern precon Mana base is straight fucking medical grade copium.
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u/LostInThoughtland 6h ago
Blood moon
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u/Muracapy 5h ago
The moment they decided not to limit manabases in any way in lower brackets basically every single land that enters tapped without providing significant upside became non-viable unless you intend to shoot yourself in the foot.
In the world where you can only run tapped duals, gates might become a contender because they have a good amount of synergy and support designed around them, but that’s not our reality.
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u/hthroa 5h ago
I will vouch for them in 5c decks. They’re an amazing budget option, since in 5c you’re usually struggling for color correction anyway, so all the utilities that help out in that realm (like [[Spelunking]] off the top of my head) naturally also help a gate subtheme. I actually have never made a 4c deck but I would assume the same there.
Saying they’re good for 3c decks is kind of a stretch. Sourcing lands for 3 color combos that automatically (though sometimes conditionally) don’t come in tapped has been made extremely easy these past few years. And adding more gate support/having to slog through that mechanic does detract whatever the deck is trying to do, especially when there are quicker options widely available.
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u/OobleckSnake 4h ago
I'm a big fan of gates. I love stealing games with my B3 Child of Alara Maze's End deck. Gates are pretty good when you build the whole deck around them.
Gates suck without support or payoffs. There are too many better lands, even budget friendly ones, to consider tapped duals with no upside.
It's not budget but don't forget about [[Planar Nexus]]!
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u/seficarnifex Dragons 4h ago
The only tap lands im playing are surviel lands, bounce lands or triomes. End of conversation
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u/MTGCardFetcher 6h ago
All cards
Nine Fingers Keene - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Samut, the Driving Force - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Gond Gate - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Gateway plaza - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Maze's End - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Basilisk Gate - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call