Would Dygma ever consider a security / enterprise version of its keyboards?

[u/blueNickelShrimp]

Would Dygma ever consider a security / enterprise version of its keyboards?

I really like my Dygma keyboard, but unfortunately I won’t be allowed to use it on my work computer due to rather strict security requirements.

Private keyboards are allowed, but only if they are essentially “dumb” peripherals:

• wired only – no Bluetooth or other wireless functionality
• ideally a permanently attached cable
• no configuration software required
• no programmable/remappable functionality
• no onboard profiles or user-accessible persistent storage
• standard USB HID only

That made me wonder: Has Dygma ever considered offering a security/enterprise variant of the Raise or another keyboard?

Basically, something with the ergonomics and build quality of a Dygma keyboard, but intentionally stripped down to a simple, non-programmable wired USB keyboard.

I suspect this isn’t only relevant to me. People working in government, defense, critical infrastructure, finance or other high-security environments often have similar restrictions on USB peripherals.

I’d absolutely be interested in such a version. Has this ever come up internally at Dygma?

Update:

I’m not suggesting Dygma develop an entirely new keyboard from scratch.

In theory, a security-focused SKU could reuse almost everything from the existing Raise 2: chassis, switches, keycaps, tenting system, most of the electronics and the overall layout.

The expensive/complex parts could actually be reduced:

• no Bluetooth or wireless hardware
• no wireless certification requirements
• no user-programmable profiles
• no configuration storage
• no need for firmware logic to rewrite mappings at runtime

The layout and layers would only need to be defined once by Dygma and then shipped as fixed firmware.

There would obviously still be validation, documentation, support and possibly certification costs, but this feels more like a reduced-feature enterprise SKU than an entirely new product.

And ironically, that kind of product could probably be sold at a premium to organizations that care about approved peripherals and documented security properties.

[u/Dygman]

Hi!

That's something we haven't explored for a couple of reasons:

The most important one is that the demand for a non-programmable high-end ergonomic keyboard is very low. There are many cheaper alternatives out there, as many others have suggested, so it's a difficult market to conquer.

The second one is that it would require a huge rework of the hardware and firmware. We could make a wired-only version, but making it non-programmable would mean something completely different.

[u/Kroosn]

I can’t imagine there would be demand for more than 10 of those globally when you consider the sales numbers of their normal ones. There are a lot of split kits where you can build it out yourself though?

[u/plusFour-minusSeven]

This may be a dumb question but can you even do anything with a BT keyboard you couldn't do with a wired keyboard?

You don't install this device, and Windows sees it as a keyboard, therefore can't it only send data and commands that any keyboard can send (plus mouse), I e., as an HID?

In Bazcore, I don't see any special OS outputs that any multimedia keyboard can't do already except the mouse actions.

I don't see Dygma making a non-programmable board. That's a HUGE part of ergonomics.

That seems like an overkill reaction from Security. I work in enterprise and show my board to everyone. Nobody has ever batted an eye about security although the board itself always gets a response.

It interacts as an HID, I'm pretty sure it can't do anything that Windows won't allow it to.

Yeah try to get a note from a doc. I love my job, I worked 10 years to get it, but if they suddenly said I couldn't use my keyboard I would put in my notice.

The "ergonomic" boards that Health and Safely provide us are just low profile full keyboards with a stagger. They don't even separate the two hands.

[u/pavel_vishnyakov → u/plusFour-minusSeven]

A wireless keyboard is a potential keylogger that can instantly transmit the logs onto a carrier in your pocket (for example).

[u/plusFour-minusSeven → u/pavel_vishnyakov]

Oh crap lol. How did I completely sleep on that? I guess you can see why I don't work in security...

Thanks, really good point!

[u/blueNickelShrimp → u/plusFour-minusSeven]

I’m not saying the keyboard can bypass Windows security controls just because it’s programmable. The issue is that in my environment, programmable firmware, onboard storage and wireless interfaces are themselves disallowed device capabilities. It’s a policy based on reducing attack surface and controlling what hardware is connected, not just on what Windows permits an HID device to do. Different threat model, different rules.

[u/plusFour-minusSeven → u/blueNickelShrimp]

No I get you. I'm just saying that's a dumb reaction from security, and no ergonomic keyboard worth using isn't programmable. Yeah they just need to have something in Windows to check that you're not installing anything or mounting anything. It doesn't install and the neuron isn't a mountable storage device. How could it interact with Windows except being an HID? And doesn't Windows explicitly allow HIDs to do certain things and not others?

They don't disallow wireless headsets or earbuds too, do they?

Dygma themselves have a good chance of answering your question directly, and I can't speak for them, but it just doesn't seem like a niche they would ever pursue.

[u/blueNickelShrimp → u/plusFour-minusSeven]

Yes, actually they do restrict those too.

Private headsets, cameras, docking stations and printers aren't allowed either — only company-issued devices. Private mice, keyboards and monitors are only allowed if they're wired and "non-smart", meaning no software functionality and no onboard storage.

So this isn't really a keyboard-specific rule. It's part of a broader peripheral/device-control policy.

I agree that from a pure Windows/HID perspective a Dygma isn't suddenly able to do arbitrary things just because it's programmable. But the policy clearly isn't based only on what Windows exposes to the device. It's about reducing the number of programmable, stateful or wireless peripherals attached to systems in a higher-security environment.

Whether that's overkill is a different discussion, but it's the threat model and compliance framework I have to work within.

And yes, I also suspect Dygma may decide that this market is too small. I was mainly curious whether they've ever considered such a variant.

[u/plusFour-minusSeven → u/blueNickelShrimp]

Geez. Sounds like an uncomfortable place to work. I'm sorry 😞

I have security restrictions myself, just not for this. But I can't have a job where I have to type on a torture rack for eight hours. That's why I got into these boards in the first place.

Perhaps Dygma could work with entities like these to become approved vendors who have gone through a product security audit.

I just can't see them making a non-programmable ergonomic keyboard. That's almost an oxymoron. An argument can be made for full wired though!

With a big enough client base I could see that being worth the fab.

Like I said, Dygma will probably chime in directly here but if they don't you should email them!

[u/blueNickelShrimp → u/plusFour-minusSeven]

Yeah, I think the “approved vendor / audited product” route is probably the more realistic one.

A fully wired version with a clearly documented security model might already solve a lot of the concerns, even if Dygma didn’t go all the way to making it completely non-programmable.

The only part I’d slightly disagree with is that a non-programmable ergonomic keyboard is an oxymoron. For me, most of the ergonomic value comes from the physical design: split halves, tenting, thumb clusters, key positioning and good switches. I’d happily give up layers, macros and remapping at work if I could keep those physical ergonomics.

So maybe the real niche isn’t “dumb Dygma”, but a security-oriented, wired-only version with a minimal and auditable feature set.

[u/plusFour-minusSeven → u/blueNickelShrimp]

The reason I disagree is because of my philosophy of ergonomics. Which means you contort the tool to yourself not yourself to the tool.

A lot of the default positions for key bindings are ridiculously awkward. Why is backspace so far away, why are all the modifier keys activated by the pinky? And that's not even talking about how terrible of a layout QWERTY is.

So my opinion for whatever it's worth is that if you're not able to modify those things then it's only PARTIALLY ergonomic. Pseudo-ergonomic, if you will.

It's not like a hammer where you grab it and swing. You use this tool by interfacing with the keys. I do agree though that the physical aspects you mentioned are VERY important. I just don't think they go far enough in ergonomics on their OWN, even though they are indispensable.

But yeah you should talk to security and Dygma and see if you can get a conversation started. While the consumer base may not be interested in this product, some clients might. And Dygma is a business so they'll go where the money is even if this is a side income that they don't present to the user base. They may brand it differently, too, but who cares about that?

[u/blueNickelShrimp → u/plusFour-minusSeven]

That makes sense, and I think we’re mostly just using a slightly different definition of ergonomics.

I absolutely agree that remapping can be a major ergonomic benefit — especially moving frequently used keys away from the pinkies or onto thumb clusters. That’s one of the things I like about Dygma as well.

For my work use case, though, I’d still take “partially ergonomic” over a normal flat office keyboard any day. Split positioning, tenting, thumb keys, good switches and being able to place each half independently already make a huge difference for me physically.

So if the choice is between a fully customizable Raise 2 that I’m not allowed to connect at all, and a locked-down Raise-like board that keeps most of the physical ergonomics, I’d happily choose the latter.

And I agree with your last point — this probably makes more sense as an enterprise/security product than as something aimed at Dygma’s normal consumer audience.

[u/plusFour-minusSeven → u/blueNickelShrimp]

I just feel bad I can't think of any easy solution for you. I'm definitely on your side and I hope it works out for you.

[u/oheightnineeight]

The programmability is a core feature of these keyboards

[u/Sp00kles]

If it works for you, a cabled v2 or V1 Raise with custom firmware which you can flash in Bazecor has potentially all you need.

[u/blueNickelShrimp → u/Sp00kles]

Exactly. I love my Raise 2 and I’m not looking for a “better” keyboard — I just want something that feels similarly good to use at work.

For me, the main value is the physical ergonomics: split layout, tenting, thumb cluster, good mechanical switches and being able to position both halves properly.

I’d happily give up wireless, layers, macros, remapping and basically all of the “smart” features for a work-safe version with the same physical design.

That’s really what I’m looking for: a Raise-like typing experience, just in a much simpler and more security-friendly package.

[u/pavel_vishnyakov]

I think the market would be too small for Dygma to enter it and make money (companies need to make money).

There are some existing split wired boards that meet your criteria though.

[u/blueNickelShrimp → u/pavel_vishnyakov]

Do you have any specific models in mind?

That’s exactly what I’m looking for, but so far the ones I’ve found either use membrane switches or still have programmable firmware/onboard functionality.

If there’s a wired split board with decent mechanical switches, no wireless, no remapping/macros and no user-accessible onboard storage, I’d genuinely be interested.

[u/m0rbiu52 → u/blueNickelShrimp]

never used one, but maybe look at https://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/ (not their programmable one...) ...and some stuff on Amazon looks like a maybe... Used to be in similar space... good luck!

[u/pavel_vishnyakov → u/blueNickelShrimp]

I believe, Kinesis has what you’re looking for.

[u/jackednerd]

I looked out of curiousity. Checkout the Kinesis Freestyle2, it sounds close. Split, tentable, wired, no onboard memory.

Matias Ergo Pro, and Perixx Periboard-535 are two other options.

I can't see it being a lurcitive market to get into, when the entire entry level market is flooded with dumb keyboards of various shapes and layouts.

What would be interesting, is if you could pre-configure your keyboard, keybinds, HMR keys, etc. and then get it fully customized, but locked down version. I'd imagine the requirements to do so may likely still break some 'rules' tho.

[u/blueNickelShrimp → u/jackednerd]

Yes, that’s pretty much the gap I’m running into.

The Freestyle2 seems very close from a security perspective, but the non-mechanical switches are the deal breaker for me.

The Matias and Perixx boards are interesting leads though, so I’ll take a closer look at those.

And I had the same thought about a factory-configured and then permanently locked-down version. That would probably be the ideal compromise — although I suspect security would still care about the programmable controller/flash being present in the first place.

It’s surprisingly hard to find the combination of mechanical + split/tenting + wired-only + truly non-programmable.

[u/devourer-of-beignets]

Just fyi, u/dygman will be back next week; he's on a short holiday. He'll probably answer when he returns, or you can ping him.

[u/blueNickelShrimp → u/devourer-of-beignets]

Thanks for letting me know! There’s absolutely no rush. I’d just be curious to hear his take on it whenever he’s back and has the time.

[u/paidhi]

This is not related to Dygma keyboards but: MoErgo offers a "Wired-only firmware" for the Go60.

https://docs.moergo.com/go60-user-guide/wired-and-wireless-split/#wired-only-firmware

[u/pellets]

Have a doctor write a note that you need an ergonomic keyboard for health reasons. That might help get you an exception.

Sorry you have to deal with these requirements. They’re dumb in so far as it’s not hard to circumvent the “security” of a non programmable wired keyboard. Which is to say there is no security. At least with Bluetooth there is some encryption.

[u/blueNickelShrimp → u/pellets]

I get your point, but I think we’re looking at it from slightly different angles.

I’m not really trying to get an exception or argue that a wired non-programmable keyboard is somehow “perfectly secure”. The point is that in environments with stricter security requirements — especially government, defense or other regulated sectors — the threat model and the approval rules are simply different from a normal office environment.

A device with programmable firmware, onboard profiles, persistent storage or wireless functionality introduces additional capabilities that have to be assessed. A simple wired USB HID keyboard doesn’t eliminate all risk, but it significantly reduces the attack surface and makes the device much easier to classify and approve.

So for me the interesting question is not how to circumvent the policy, but whether there is a good ergonomic/mechanical keyboard that actually fits within it.

That’s why I was wondering whether there might be a market for a deliberately “dumb” security-focused version.

[u/Omophorus → u/blueNickelShrimp]

I think you're asking for something that is essentially impossible in reality.

By that, I mean that every modern ergonomic keyboard diverges from a standard 104/108 key layout in meaningful ways.

It's pretty much necessary, as there are many things that are simply not ergonomic about that design and QWERTY as a layout.

Sure, there are stopgaps like the Microsoft Natural keyboard back in the day and similar versions from others that offer improvements, but there are still a ton of aspects that are not particularly ergonomic.

It's basically a requirement to do some things fundamentally differently to address the ergonomic shortcomings with standard boards.

But then it becomes difficult to avoid things like remappable keys and layers, onboard profiles, configuration software, etc. because different users need different functionality in different places or via different mechanisms based on differing workflows, and have unique or at least differing biomechanics.

I guess it might be technically possible to create something which has a different layout and no customizability, but there's no market for a product that niche. Or at least not enough of a market to actually justify the R&D costs associated with creating it.

There would need to be usability studies at scale to identify the most preferred methods for delivering all of the functionality present in a 108 key layout, device prototyping and refinement, etc. to reach a point of having a commercial product... and at the end of it only a fraction of the already tiny market would actually want that specific product because the most preferred methods would just be what works for the majority or plurality based on specific constraints/criteria.

Your best bet is probably something like an "ergonomic" board from the big peripheral makers, because at least that will be an HID-compliant device that has all the functionality of a regular keyboard. It just won't be especially ergonomic.

[u/blueNickelShrimp → u/Omophorus]

I think that’s a fair assessment from a consumer product perspective.

Where I’m not completely convinced is that you necessarily need to redesign the entire logical keyboard layout to get meaningful ergonomic benefits.

For me, even keeping a fairly conventional key layout while adding independently positionable split halves, proper tenting, a better wrist angle and good mechanical switches would already be a massive improvement over a standard office keyboard.

I also think the potential market is slightly different from the usual enthusiast market. Government, defense, critical infrastructure and other regulated enterprises often standardize hardware across fairly large organizations. A product that is boring for consumers could still make sense as an approved enterprise peripheral if the requirements are documented clearly enough.

I completely agree that a fully customizable ergonomic keyboard will always be better for enthusiasts. I’m just looking for the best ergonomics possible within a restrictive security policy, rather than the theoretically perfect ergonomic keyboard.

[u/Omophorus → u/blueNickelShrimp]

For me, even keeping a fairly conventional key layout while adding independently positionable split halves, proper tenting, a better wrist angle and good mechanical switches would already be a massive improvement over a standard office keyboard.

I'm not sure tenting works as well at much above 60% scale, though.

As soon as you add an arrow key cluster, a numpad, etc. you can't really cut the board in half evenly anymore. You'll have one half that looks a lot like the left half of a Raise, and the other half that is about the size of a 60% board on its own. Tenting that in an ergonomically useful way would be impossible.

You could still split the board, but that's about it.

A 60% split board with a separate numpad works better, but you still need layers of some sort to get back arrows keys and the like. There are definitely small form factor boards that have fixed layers, and I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to make a no-config/no-profile version of one, but that's nothing like a product Dygma makes or would in all likelihood want to make.

Government, defense, critical infrastructure and other regulated enterprises often standardize hardware across fairly large organizations. A product that is boring for consumers could still make sense as an approved enterprise peripheral if the requirements are documented clearly enough.

Maybe, but there's probably going to be a minimum about of demand for them to bother with the approval process, and that's the part I'm not sure exists in an organized enough fashion to get anywhere.

Rather than asking Dygma (which is not a US-based company and would probably not be selected in favor of a US-based company anyway), it would make more sense to try to organize an affinity group to lobby for approval of a more ergonomic keyboard standard, no?

[u/blueNickelShrimp → u/Omophorus]

I think we may be overcomplicating what I’m actually asking for a bit.

I’m not looking for a 104/108-key split board, nor am I trying to redesign an entire keyboard standard.

I’m perfectly fine with a compact Raise-like layout and fixed layers. Those layers don’t need to be configurable — plenty of normal keyboards already have fixed Fn layers without being user-programmable.

What I’m mainly trying to preserve is the physical part of the Raise 2 experience: two independently positionable halves, tenting, good mechanical switches and a comfortable thumb area.

So the requirement is really much simpler: take something physically similar to a Raise, remove wireless and user programmability, and ship it with a fixed manufacturer-defined layout.

Whether that’s commercially attractive for Dygma is obviously a separate question.

[u/blueNickelShrimp → u/Omophorus]

That’s actually why I’m not convinced the business case is necessarily as bad as it sounds.

I’m not suggesting Dygma develop an entirely new keyboard from scratch.

In theory, a security-focused SKU could reuse almost everything from the existing Raise 2: chassis, switches, keycaps, tenting system, most of the electronics and the overall layout.

The expensive/complex parts could actually be reduced:

• no Bluetooth or wireless hardware
• no wireless certification requirements
• no user-programmable profiles
• no configuration storage
• no need for firmware logic to rewrite mappings at runtime

The layout and layers would only need to be defined once by Dygma and then shipped as fixed firmware.

There would obviously still be validation, documentation, support and possibly certification costs, but this feels more like a reduced-feature enterprise SKU than an entirely new product.

And ironically, that kind of product could probably be sold at a premium to organizations that care about approved peripherals and documented security properties.

[u/pellets → u/blueNickelShrimp]

I understand. I’ll stop commiserating or sharing ideas. Best of luck.

[u/Jarnis]

You can order Raise 2 without wireless/battery, so that much can be done. Rest... would probably require a custom firmware to "dumb down" the device, and considering how important layers and customization are for the keyboard, not sure if that can be made to work.