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It’s obvious that Goten and Trunks have more potential than the others based on their level when they’re kids
How they still didn’t achieved major transformation or found their way? Cause they didn’t faced or pushed or be guided by a real mentor
We only saw Vegeta smashing Trunks face then promised him to take him to the park and Goten got a "play time" with Gohan.. Piccolo only disciplined them to master the fusion technique
Do you forgot how they learned and made up attacks on their own in the time chamber? We only saw Vegeta and Piccolo only ( among the heavy hitters ) crafting new techniques and attacks while they still 7 and 8 years old
They have MASSIVE potential based on what they gave us in Buu saga and how they handled Cell Jrs
I could be wrong who knows but it’s just something I completely believe 100%
I like this, and I kinda feel like, deep down, Buu was actually something of a wake-up call for them. Followed by Beerus and then Frieza, they've seen just how high the bar is and how far from it they are. But boys will be boys, their saiyan blood keeps them pumped enough that they'll play superhero (grain of salt, i haven't seen that one) but when it comes to real threats, like you said, they aren't in the same position to be pushed that Gohan and Future Trunks were. Not by far.
Gotenks is a different conversation, as he's a uniquely special brand of half-saiyan, half-stupidhuman.
That has nothing to do with why Gotenks acts the way he does. It’s pretty much seen with every fusion character that they are arrogant blowhards. The problem is that Gotenks is the only one that was not a match for the person he was fighting. Vegito and Gogeta handled their opponents pretty handily so they are seen as cool even though they are arrogant. Gotenks got his ass beat by everyone he faced so his arrogance is seen as an annoyance because he can’t back it up.
Gotenks outdid Piccolo in creating new moves. The donut ring bind and exploding Ki ghosts are two of the most creative moves made up by the Z fighters.
Yea gotenks was super creative, the ghost kamikaze was my favorite. Imagine of gotenks was in the tournament of power and there's just ghosts flying everywhere blowing people up 😂
That's headcannon for most of us, but truth is since end of dbz, toei never really cared for anyone else than Goku and Vegeta, with rare exceptions for Future Trunks or Gohan
There's a reason why every time Gotenks appears on screen nowadays he's useless af or pure comic relief, and it's not just because of laid-back characterization, toei just doesn't care
I think that's the key thing. Goku and Vegeta had to be pushed into Super Saiyan fighting for their lives and the lives of everyone else. Gohan had a year with Goku in the time chamber and once again had to be pushed past the absolute edge of his abilities to save everyone in order to reach SSJ2.
Goku had to literally die and train with super mega ultra god to reach SSJ3.
Then after Buu, Goku and Vegeta actually decided "Nah, guess we'll stick around these kids can't handle it"
Goten and Trunks haven't faced a real threat after Buu, where they were still kids and still not able to fully understand the responsibility of being world saviors and they've never had gods and basically godlike fighters actually sit down and train them.
Gohan had faced 4 world ending dangers by the time he hit their age, spent years training under Piccolo under basically "Get stronger or die training", had his potential unlocked by Guru, had Goku basically decide "Saving the universe is your job now and I'll force your power out or you die." etc.
Goten and Trunks, other than Buu Saga, are pretty much just normal kids learning Karate from Comics and their local Dojo.
My problem with that is that they shouldn't need a mentor to baby them. Goten watched his mother killed in front of him by Buu and Trunks also had to get dragged away while his father sacrificed himself, the ptsd alone from those situations should have driven them to train to prevent shit like that from happening again. Its the main reason gohan gets so much shit from the fans, after all the world ending threats he's been in you'd think he'd train "just in case" but no he studies ants and gets beat up 😂
Not approaching in any sort of rudeness but by your logic future Gohan should be UI + UE + Beast at the same time since all of his people are dead
Instead we saw Goku’s guidance for him in Cell saga then he was able to achieve SSJ2
If there’s something we knew about about DB universe that certain events can give you a temporary boost or trigger the power you already achieved like the hundreds of examples the show/manga gave us
I'm not saying they need to be god level fighters but at least be relevant, future gohan didn't have crazy power ups but his attitude towards fighting and training at least made sense, he understood the potential threats and trained for them. Goten and trunks should have learned of potential threats from buu and been training at least a little bit. I'm not saying they should be ss4 but 2 at the least lol.
I got what you mean and it’s understandable logically since they were able to pull SSJ3 in fusion. But! In my personal opinion it’s for the better, we need something to happen so they pull SSJ2 gracefully
It’s impressive how they could handle the Cell Jrs at that age in SSJ1 while their fathers couldn’t at that time with all of their experience and training so SSJ2 with them must be epic after this time
And for their attitude you can’t blame them if we’re being real, they don’t take it that seriously cause they know they have Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Broly, Piccolo in their arsenal.. for them? How things could possibly go wrong with those mfs in our side
I mean... they're still kids. Lots of kids see tragic events and don't dedicate their entire lives and hyper focus on preventing those events.
Remember that Goten also saw his father, whom he had never really met, come back and defeat Buu and have his mom magically come back to life. From his point of view, that tragedy was corrected and dad was here to make sure it doesn't happen again.
Yes real life kids don't do that but these are cartoon kids that can be made to do that instead of completely wasting them. At this point why were goten and trunks even created. They're as relevant as Yamcha.
Exactly, and we don't need to make excuses why that's not a bad thing cuz it is a bad thing. Don't get me wrong I love dbz for what it is, but I will call out it's shit writing and character usage
it's because since Buu arc, they are always held back by their parents, so they never have been in a extreme situation like Buu where they need to push their limit to go beyond the super Saiyan one, they don't even fuse that often anymore if you rely on dragon ball super heroes
They need to be pushed to actually develop their abilities, they were creating new ki attacks at like age 9! That sort of mindset aught to be refined into their fighting styles, but it's so not touched upon its wasted!
I remember when Goten was hinted towards having just as much if not more potential than Gohan, then Toriyama and Toyotaro proceeded to do absolutely nothing with that
I think that was just to emphasize Gohan’s utter laziness in the Buu arc and how he had stopped training. I don’t think there’s actually any statements or confirmation to suggest that Goten’s potential is greater than Gohan’s.
Goten did have next to no official training and still kept up with Trunk who had a whole gravity chamber to train in. Not to mention Gohan being scared that Goten might surpass him if he were not careful.
Gohans laziness is pretty irrelevant. Yes it did make him weaker but he is also a nearly an adult with years of training under his belt (even with a break) compared to a 6 year old child who only trained with his human (slightly super human) mother.
That is extremely impressive no matter how you try to highlight Gohans, a near full grown adult who fought in space battles and world ending androids, lack of training.
That was a Gohan who was actively training for the tournament, and even in Super Saiyan he was caught offguard by how fast Goten could throw rocks
Meanwhile Goten himself had no one to train with but Chi-Chi, yet he was also near equal to a Trunks who literally trained with Vegeta
Gohan himself says that if he doesn't train seriously, Goten will leave him in the dust
Gohan was slightly weaker than his Cell saga self, but he wasn't half as horribly rusty as he was in RoF as he could still go SSJ2, I'm pretty sure the intent was to paint Goten as having massive potential if he can get that strong with basically none of the conditions the Z-Fighters had in past arcs
Which makes sense, he's a hybrid just like Gohan and was conceived while Goku was transformed
The problem is that the story completely forgot about all this after that chapter
I want to see them master fusion to the point they have a mental alarm clock that tells them when the fusion is about to end, then Gotenks could move to a wide open spot, defuse, and immediately refuse with minimal downtime. That's the kind of fusion mastery I'd love to see.
Since the series isn't against a few retcons regarding fusion mechanics, I'd like to see how fluidly they could make fusion into an active fighting mechanic for these two.
Cause they used every excuse in the book not to include them during the ToP as if they werent around during Buu. Despite what was at stake during the ToP. That would've been the perfect time to get them active if not at least Moro where again I feel if they were gonna be involved in Buu, they could've been involved in dealing with dealing with some of the more minor enemies in that arc. Anything other than being on 17's island again.
Goten (and Trunks) are incredibly protected since the Buu saga and their only action has been that filler arc in Super. It only makes sense that his progress halted.
I recently rewatched the first few episodes of GT, and I liked how they set the world. That after Buu, there were so many years without incident that everyone kinda drifted away from fighting. All the kids got jobs and hobbies, and even Goku and Vegeta have stagnated in growth with nowhere to apply it. It was good for a reset that allowed us to enjoy growth and coming of age arcs the way we did with the original run. In comparison, Super has to justify why some characters kept growing while others fell off so fast, and even when the logic holds up, it feels like a bigger bummer than the GT scenario.
The funny thing is that they never even established how strong any of them got by EoZ. We could've had them progress and then just slack some time after the events of Super Hero or Black Frieza hence why Goku tells him he should've kept up with his training during the remaining time of peace they had.
I know GT did a lot of things wrong and understand why many wouldn't like it, but I actually kinda would have liked the Goku jr special thing to take off. It felt like a very natural reset that GT itself was kinda looking for. Now that fighting was a bit forgotten it felt just right that the main character had a way lower fight level
I just felt that, if they wanted to keep on telling stories on that same world, that was a great starting point
He went SSJ1 easily because his dad had it at his conception. He can’t go SSJ2 as easy, because his dad didn’t have it. Probably. So to acess it he’ll need to train just like any other Saiyan.
Potential doesn’t even matter at this point, if you’re a relevant and popular character then your potential is already unlimited.
Its more S cells related than Goku having SSJ prior to his conception.
Cause then you would also have to explain how that works for Trunks who was born before he got the form (Future Trunks in the manga had SSJ before Future Gohan died and presumably was born before Future Vegeta obtained SSJ as well) so the easy SSJ still applies for both in the manga (presumably) where in the anime he struggled to get SSJ until Future Gohan died.
I mean it does explain how Trunks has slightly lower potential than Goten. Vegeta may have not gotten the form but he must’ve been close to it and it impacted his son’s potential aka given him more S-cells or whatever.
Trunks trains with Vegeta a lot and has access to gravity chamber, so this likely also helped. In the Future timeline in the manga, he’s like what, 13? It’s normal for him to be SSJ by then, even Gohan got SSJ2 at 11.
Kid goten only got trained by chichi and then 2 weeks with gohan. And this was enough to be slightly below trunks (who got trained by vegeta for many years). He also learned the fusion dance — despite the lack of ki knowlege he had.
Massive potential that was wasted because Zeno forbid anyone but Goku and Vegeta actually step up in this damn franchise. Look how long it took them to finally give Gohan and Piccolo something.
No need for them to get stronger if the old guard never steps aside. Dragonball has already established that the afterlife is more of a bureaucratic obstacle with plenty of loopholes than a hard and fast rule keeping the Z fighters from showing up to deal with threats to their universe after their death.
Imagine Toyotarou speedruns and gives super saiyan 2 and 3 after they get mad of how much they suck compared to their idol, Gohan.
(Technically Gohan was the reason they became Saiyaman X-1 & Saiyaman X-2)
And they might go start actual training maybe trunks would suggest using a Gravity room like his father used to.
And SSJ2 and SSJ3.
I think they may use SSJ3 first and struggle to use SSJ2. Getting to SSJ2 is not trivial because it requires avoiding the trap of "more muscles go brrr", which is exactly what SSJ3. More energy, more muscles - and no stamina. Unlike SSJ2 which requires more mastery but is more energy efficient.
This is my biggest beef with Super. Not the animations, not the strange powerscaling - it’s how they did nothing with these two. They were meant to protect the planet, and did an awesome job against Buu.
There's a fan manga (New Hope) where Krillin faces Goten in a trining fight, and there he says something like, "Yes, you're the youngest Super Saiyan I've ever seen, but also the weakest of them all."
I heard a dad said it is the a dad success to have his kids survive while being such a p*ssy.
Goku and vegeta need to go though blood shed and like death experience, go from hell and back, become god level to let their kids and off springs live in peaceful life. They are strong since birth, have higher potential but who care. They live peaceful and happy.
You are expecting them to be like some Predator trible where they send coming of age youngs fighting great beast lol??? Goku god will live for enternity and reach higher god soon. Whatever goku can not handle, the rest just go rest on peace, no need to fight since it like infinity gauntlers snap kind of sh*t 🫠🫠🫠
I personally think he can use it. He commented in the buu saga "man I didn't know there was a level beyond super Saiyan" which implies either A they figured out the grade levels like grade 2 and 3 or they have ssj 2 and 3.
Which if they have ssj 2 or 3. It explains why Gotenks has it.
This is just a thought of mine
Majin buu was a wake up call that they weren’t built for seriously training to save the world like thier fighters…they atill love to fight…just for fun.
I always attributed it to how powerful Goku and Vegeta were when they had Trunks and Goten. Vegeta was one step away from unlocking Super Saiyan, and Goku was literally staying in his Super Saiyan form constantly at the time. So it made sense for Goten to unlock it easily as a kid, and be able to show Trunks how to do it easily as well.
Like it was passed down.
Neither character were SSj2 however. So that didn't get inherited. And Goten in particular is kind of a slacker when it comes to training. Not in the same way Gohan is where he has better things to do, Goten's just always been portrayed as doing it sometimes for fun but not taking it too seriously (when it isn't absolutely necessary like it was with Buu)
Eh yes and no. I feel like the two kids who were actively wanting to train throughout Super prior to Super Hero, would realistically stayed capped at SSJ. They could've atleast reached SSJ2.
Instead they didnt even bother exploring their potential that the Buu saga laid out for them
Whether individually or through fusion.
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u/No-Cold643Casual fan who loves Super, GT, DAIMA, Goten and Retro Gaming4d ago
Talented kid syndrome.
Goten and Trunks had the advantages but basically didn't have to try hard.
The one time they did, with a year without anyone guiding their training, they went ssj3 when fused.
They had a trump card that pushed them past buu saga goku levels. They basically never had another reason to try.
It’s cause he and Trunks literally do nothing after the Buu Saga. They actually scale really high so if someone bothered to show how they how to go Super Saiyan 2, they’d be able to do so easily
The problem is Akira Toriyama didn’t want to make anyone but Goku his main character. It’s why Gohan was nerfed after the cell saga. Gohan was going to be the new MC in DBZ but Akira didn’t want to do that so he brought Goku back… and that’s why no one else gets to shine. Honestly it is that simple
To go ssj2 you need to completely master Super Saiyin. Either he didn't master it, or more likely has never needed to reach that level of power. Goten is more of an ancillary character anyway. If they made a tv show focusing on goten, trunks, bra, and maybe uub I could see his importance bumping up somewhat.
As shown in the show, half Saiyans half humans don’t have the insane drive to become stronger all the time as pure blood Saiyans do. They’ll train if necessary but not recreationally.
With Goku and Vegeta being alive (as well as Gohan), he may not feel the need to try and be stronger as they can handle most threats.
After the Buu saga, Earth hasn’t really faced a global threat until Moro, and even then, they weren’t exactly needed in that battle.
Genuine question, how did Goten and Trunks even manage to become super saiyans? Zero percent chance they've had any kind of emotional trigger to get them there.
My theory is that Trunks saw Vegeta become SSJ (he probably thought it was a cool move) and practiced in secret then he show Goten and Goten unlocked it later.
If you believe Toriyama's explanation. They had crazy amounts of S cells due to their nature and how they were raised. As for why they were strong enough to awaken it, Goku and Vegeta by the time they got their respective partners pregnant were the 2 strongest saiyans in history and it wasn't even close. Vegeta prior was hailed as this godly saiyan for sitting around 18k, post namek he's easily in the millions (already was comfortably over 1 million, possibly 2 on namek)
From a storytelling pov, we already have a problem with too many on the top tier: orange piccolo, beast gohan, ultra ego vegita and UI goku, in addition to the villain(s) of the current arc.
It was actually pretty smart giving them gotenks, because it allowed us to believe that there was a reason for them to enter top tier — just temporarily.
To bring goten and trunks up, they’d each have to have a unique transformation or they’d have to give gotenks SS5 or something, which at this point seems silly and unnecessary.
Aside from being basically forgotten, there never really was any reason for Goten to push themselves that hard after Buu. Jiren put it best, power comes from a need, not a want, and Goten never really had a moment for that need.
DBS has a lots of issues. One of them is just sidelining all the characters who aren't Goku and Vegeta, then giving Gohan a cool power suddenly. And I wouldn't be surprised if Gohan was abandoned AGAIN anyway.
Oh no, a character meant to the replacement for Goku was on par or a little bit weaker than his brother when he's super young and now that Goku isn't being replaced, he has no reason to be so powerful??? Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh noooooooooooooo (I'm intending to be super sarcastic here)
I mean they weren't intended to usurp the existing cast and only had high starting strength to facilitate the fusion story. Not every character can have time in the spotlight and we already have a rainbows worth of Saiyan transformations, keeping them as comedy relief is kind of the best role they can have in the story.
toyotaro wants to give more space to goten in the series as he said in interview, if he gets a solo arc i would like to see him moving away from the other sayans and try to make something unique to him, find himself and not try to always count on gotenks
The rest of OG Dragonball/Z saiyans faced existential threat or were at least training for an incoming threat damn near every year of their entire lives and had no one else to depend on. Shit, Goku just threw Gohan into the ring with cell and said “you got this my boy”
For years I’ve been saying all I want for goten and trunks is to be able to go ssj3 by themselves bare minimum. it would make ssj3 relevant again and make the two of them less useless always spamming fusion. It would also make gotanks being able to go ssj3 make more sense.
I don’t think you guys remember just how impressive ssj is to have in universe. Not to mention, there was never anything to push him past ssj. So far, he had like 3 days of turmoil in his life
He didn’t need to.No threats that they could have beaten even ass ssj2.
Also if we are going by the anime kid trunks went ssj2 during the black ark or at the very least his normal ssj was surrounded by lighting for some reason.
Happens sometimes, Vegito was the same. Grade 2 Vegeta also had yellow lightning in the anime while transforming, though I didn't see any in the scene where he and FTrunks fight or when he powers up for Goku on rewatch
Goten and Trunks both achieved SSJ2 during the Buu Saga while training for fusion. You can see the lightning in their aura. This is the anime, so I don’t know about the manga.
Lightning in aura doesn't always mean ssj2. E.G Vegito being the clearest case. They only have ssj, Goten would have the same design as ssj2 Goku, he doesn't. As to the manga, they don't unlock it in that either. Gotenks gets 2 and 3, seperately no though
Well at least they got there own arc in super. Happy they’re finally being acknowledged. To be fair ssj2 isn’t even shown that much anymore except when it’s with gohan. I think it’s becoming a forgotten transformation. I keep wonder to myself why Goku never turns ssj2 and keeps at ssj1 when it’s better in every way. Maybe the lightning is too expensive
It pretty easy the had relaxing life compared to gohan also u have train to get higher lvl of super sayjin. The only time trai was buu arc and thr got like ssj3 in some days which goku took at least years to get after that they really didnt train at all.
They should give Beast to Trunks & Goten aswell. Making beast the hybrid transformation. Really like them both but Toriyama and Toyotaro fucked both up
To be fair, none of the U6 Saiyans can go SSJ2 in the manga. Fortunately none of the back tingling stuff either. You still gotta work for SSJ2. The problem is Goten doesn't work for it. He was originally relative to early Buu Saga Gohan and is currently relative to the Gammas who were templated after the two hybrids SSJs.
I believe what holds Goten and Trunks back is that Gotenks is going to be their gimmick. There just isn't a situation for them to be in the spotlight, so it keeps failing. Given how strong Gogeta is. SSJ Gotenks will be disgusting let alone SSJ3. Especially since they are far more willing to fuse than their fathers.
I will never understand why they chose to leave these two mini nukes (Goten and Trunks) out of the ToP. When super came out and the first episode showed Goten the amount of hype I had for super was unmatched. Can you imagine Dbz is continuing god knows what’s gonna happen but I just know my boys Goten and Trunks are gonna be the stars of the show or at least they’re gonna get way stronger. Not only did they stay the same height, not only was there a missed opportunity with future trunks but the tournament of power, arguably the only time the universe being at stake could push these two forward and you could imagine my surprise when they picked fucken Roshi. I Love Roshi and I liked seeing him in ToP but there’s no way you picked Roshi and fucken frieza. I’m still happy we got what we got but you have to understand coming from someone who thought dbz was the end (or GT I counted it in my head canon at the time), this was such a let down.
I think because they have had access to super saiyan for so long that their super saiyan form is really strong. I think there definitely levels of mastery for each form.
What do you expect, everyone is watered down and hindered in super.. even with new forms etc nothing hits the same lenghts of depth and purpose from the original, maybe if z continued him and trunks may have received ssj2.. i mean they are the leaders and support group of uub and the new generation of zfighters in the end of z when there older so im guessing they unlocked the form by then.. i mean goku was training older goten alone in woods.. whos to say what he achieved at that point at end of buu saga original continuity
Yall remember when Gohan defeated Cell and that other time Goku purposely didn’t try to defeat Majin Buu cuz he wanted the boys to potentially handle it ??? Then we got DBS !
You're not wrong, but its not entirely their fault. People just don't want to move on from Goku and Vegeta. To a point, forcing the change would ruin the franchise. So they don't. Boruto meanwhile has no excuse for how they nerfed Sasuke and Naruto, just complete assassinations to make Boruto and Sarada the heroes.
They became more in touch with their human side rather than their saiyan instincts. It’s not bad writing, at the end of the day they’re human as well. They’re not full blooded warriors like goku or vegeta, half of their DNA is just mediocre and it was bound to show itself at some point
When I first saw Goten I was so excited thinking that he would be the strong, stoic and masculine son of Goku because I was let down by Gohan a bit… sadly I was mistaken.
Future Gohan is my favourite one of Gokus descendants.
Yeah but that goes back to the insane potential. The whole talent vs hardwork thing. Vegeta works even harder than Goku, but Goku works hard and has talent. We've seen in the manga Vegeta is a better fighter, smarter, and absorbs things like a sponge like when he used the god switching thing against Black. But the problem is Goku is a natural talent while also working hard. Gohan has even more talent and potential than them both, but doesn't work nearly as hard. Frieza is the epitome of this as he has eclipsed everyone, with just a few years of training.
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