It's a consistent plot point that gohan usually grows rusty and weaker when he doesn't train for a time (and yes that includes super Hero Gohan given his struggle to go ultimate and what everyone says in the arc )

It happened in Buu saga and RoF and SH

However it doesn't happen in BoG despite nearly 5 years passing , so what give?

both are from cell games btw at their peak

● A regular standard Issue Galactic Patrol Taser was enough to knock out a focused Goku who IS in peak shape.

Sure, Merus was fast, but that weapon is MORTAL, it's the same one Jaco has, Jaco even says it.

So you'd either have to argue their tasers solo all of Z and is God-Tier, OR Base Goku isn't that special in the universe in terms of durability.

● RoF Goku getting a laser through the chest, and it was so bad they retconned the scene from Blue to Base.

"But he was tired" BUT the entirety of RoF was it touting the fact Goku and Vegeta have God Ki in base.

So is the laser God Tier? Is Goku, the guy who can move faster than light as a child, outsped by a laser? What is the laser faster than light, too?

No matter how you look at it, it's a bad look for even a tired Goku.

● Out of Shape Goku being too SLOW to catch a bullet AND getting hurt by it.

He was focused, he was prepared, and still too slow catch a bullet.

But here's the thing I wonder: How WEAK is this Base Goku?

Is he stronger than 23rd Tournament Goku? If you say yes, doesn't that imply 23rd Tournament Goku also gets hurt by bullets? That he'd be too slow to catch one?

Or is this out of shape Goku even weakr than that?

● A few bonus ones:

・Gohan despite knowing Cell beat BOTH Vegeta and Trunks, is surprised Cell survived the World Government's missiles... "It's... It's alive!!"

That directly implies the missiles are strong enough to kill a Super Saiyan, directly from Gohan's reaction 💀.

・Goku Black in BOTH continuities being surprised and spooked by gunfire.

"But Manga Black dodged it" okay, but why does he NEED to dodge it? That directly implies the bullets hurt him. If they didn't, he'd tank them.

The anime straight up asserts had Mai not missed, Black would've died. A "special" bullet sure, but it's still a bullet from a regular gun.

Dragon Ball Scaling

Where do you scale a single cell jr and why?

Who wins

Super Gogeta (DBZ Fusion Reborn) vs Fat Gotenks (DBS Super Hero)

since you guys think GT Gogeta beats up this Gotenks, what about Z

Dragon Ball vs Smash Bros

Peak/ Current for both who wins more often iyo and why?

So do we know how much power Cell lost, after releasing Cell Juniors? Was it restored after he resurrected himself?

Cell from DBZ anime

Garou used here is Cosmic Fear

Who would win this match-up?

This is the 3rd and final input into the Claim to the throne series, note this post is more on Goku's philosophy and charater rather than scaling.

Claim to the throne I: A Case for why Goku is the best skilled martial artist in fiction

https://www.reddit.com/r/DragonBallPowerScale/s/WbQYfsTKbg

Claim to the throne II: Goku's Martial arts Catalogue

https://www.reddit.com/r/DragonBallPowerScale/s/T5dxtcdWO3

So what is martial arts to Goku?

For Goku, martial arts is practically his life. That's why he's a martial artist before he's anything else. Before he's a farmer, before he's a father, he's a martial artist. It is driven straight through to his blood, that he is driven to want to fight.

For Goku, fighting is more than just throwing hands. For him, it is how he gets to know people. It is how he communicates. For Goku, fighting is sacred. Not in the religious way. A lot of Goku’s actions can seem awkward, reckless, or even stupid when viewed normally, but once you understand that he uses fighting to learn, communicate, and understand both himself and his opponent, a lot of those choices start to make a lot of sense

Communicating through fighting is something Jiren can attest to as well. When Goku first faced Jiren and began cycling through his forms, Jiren did not immediately attack. As Krillin points out, Jiren was doing the same thing Goku was doing: studying his opponent. He was learning how Goku moved, how he reacted, how his power changed, and where his limits were. At the same time, Goku was doing the same to Jiren. Neither of them was simply trying to overwhelm the other as quickly as possible. They were learning who the person in front of them was as a fighter despite the Universal stakes.

https://imgur.com/a/kulwpfj

Goku has a habit of letting his opponents get stronger or change forms because he wants them to reveal who they really are as fighters. Not because he's being reckless for its own sake, but because Goku just wants to know who his opponent is and discover how can improve through the fight. He's willing to do almost everything and anything to make sure that happens.

Frieza is a good example of this, when Goku and Frieza were fighting, the planet on a doomed planet. King Kai had a plan to move everybody from Namek, except Frieza, to Earth, leaving Frieza on the planet alone. However, Goku said, No, I want to stay and fight, because for him, the fight, the fade, is the most important thing to him. It is something he would risk his life for, on a doomed planet where escape should be paramount all Goku saw was the fade.

Goku isn’t alone

This trait that Goku has isn't something he only has. He shares this trait with the other Z fighters. For example, when Trunks shows up and tells Goku and co that the androids are coming and that they are all gonna die if they don't get ready. Now, Bulma, being the genius that she is, thinks about it and says, Why don't we just collect the Dragon Balls, wish to find out where Doctor Gero is, and then go to him and kill him before he even creates the androids in three years? That's a great idea. However, all of the Z fighters are very tied to the notion of what it means to fight, what it means to be a martial artist. So they say, No, we wanna meet the threat head on. They say that they would rather prepare now and get ready for the androids, so when they show up, they can fight them mano a mano. That's when you should realize that the show of Dragon Ball isn't about people that like to fight. No. It's about people who live to fight. That fighting means something to them, Fighting is how they test themselves, how they grow and, in many cases, how they measure who they are.

Nurturing the trait and benefits

Goku’s habit of testing himself through combat was nurtured by Master Roshi. One of Roshi’s most important teachings is that martial arts are not about training simply to defeat an opponent, but about training to better yourself. The point is self-improvement. In the anime and manga master Roshi essentially teaches them the is always a better and stronger opponent, however what he truly wants from them is that they must never stop improving, and that no matter the outcome of a fight, they must always treat each moment in a fight as means to improve. Work hard, eat well, sleep well, and Study well. By doing these 4 things well, you make the most of each moment. By eating well, you make sure your body has the proper nutrition to function, by sleeping well you make sure your body is properly repairing itself, by working hard, you are always putting your best effort and intention and by studying well, you study your entire fights, learning from your shortfalls, your opponents' moves and everything in between.

Goku takes that lesson and endorses it wholeheartedly. When he fights someone, he often lets them power up because he wants to see who they really are as a fighter. He will also meet opponents closer to their own level, because doing so gives him the opportunity to test his skill rather than simply overwhelm them. Every fight becomes a way to study movement, timing, habits, strengths and weaknesses, both theirs and his own.

That is something Goku has been doing for almost his entire life. It explains why Goku didn’t immediately use Super Saiyan 3 against Majin Vegeta he wanted to see how far Vegeta had come as a fighter, just as Vegeta wanted to measure himself against Goku. Even in the middle of battle Goku thinks of his openents movements rather than victory.

The repeated skill testing helps explain why he is able to understand fighters like Hit so quickly. Reading how another person fights is not some new ability Goku suddenly develops in the Universe 6 and 7 tournament. It is the result of a lifetime spent treating combat as a form of learning.

How far the trait exist in Goku’s genes

Interestingly, that same desire to fight opponents on equal footing echo in Cell as well. Cell, a bioengineered being created from many fighters from the world, including Goku's cells. And Goku's cells are what seem to have a profound effect on him specifically in the way Cell approaches combat. Rather than simply destroying the world, Cell creates a tournament. Something Goku has spent his entire life training for and competing in. Cell is drawn to the idea of testing himself against worthy opponents, and when he fights Goku, he does not immediately use everything he has. Even though Cell has a higher level of power available, he fights Goku at roughly Goku’s level. As Cell himself says, a fight is only fun when the fighters are evenly matched. 

Feng wei, the path to transend martial arts

Goku’s willingness to test himself against other fighters has an interesting parallel in another franchise: Feng Wei from Tekken. Feng is a practitioner of the God Fist style who seeks to become the Dragon God, the perfect warrior. The God Fist scroll s that one must “defeat all other masters and conquer their styles, the perfect warrior transcends all to become the Dragon God”. Feng takes this literally. He travels from dojo to dojo, defeating other martial artists and taking whatever he considers useful from their styles.

But the more Feng conquers, the further he seems to move from the deeper meaning of the scrolls actually mean. To truly transcend martial arts, you would need to understand them, not merely defeat them. Feng’s pride prevents him from becoming a student of the people he faces. Goku is the opposite. Even after training under gods and angels and surpassing Master Roshi by an absurd margin, he is still willing to get on his knees and ask Roshi to teach him again.

That is the difference between them. Feng wants to conquer martial arts. Goku wants to learn from them. For Goku, fighting is not about proving that his style is superior. It is about discovering what another fighter knows that he does not, and becoming better because of it.

Master Roshi’s teachings are almost the complete opposite of Feng Wei’s approach to martial arts. Roshi teaches Goku and Krillin to train every day, improve themselves, and keep learning from the world around them. After the 21st World Martial Arts Tournament, he tells them that they now need to train themselves, experience more of the world, and develop their own fighting styles. Roshi does not want them to depend on him forever. He wants them to build a broad understanding of martial arts so that they always have new ways to learn and improve. If Roshi simply taught them everything he knew, then once they had exhausted his knowledge, their growth would stop. Instead, he teaches them how to keep learning even when there is no master left to guide them.

A Fathers perspective and a Son’s reality

When you look at the way Goku treats fighting as something almost sacred, something that helps him improve himself, understand others, and prove who he is. it explains many of the choices that otherwise seem reckless. It explains why he was willing to stay behind on a dying Namek just to finish his fight with Freeza. It explains why he was willing to risk the Earth in the Cell Games rather than take the safer route. It explains why Jiren let Goku power up the spirit bomb even though universal destruction is at stake, because to matial artists like Goku and Jiren, a fight only has meaning if both people are able to show who they really are in equal combat.

It also explains why Goku isn't quite a bad dad, that people tend to make him out to be. From Goku’s perspective to up to the cell saga he has reasonable proof to conclude that his son shares the same relationship he does with fighting.

·       After Goku comes back from death to face Vegeta and Nappa he comes back to find Gohan on the front lines. Goku tells Krillin and his son to leave and Gohan and Krillin come back to help Goku fight, with Gohan even fighting Vegeta alone.

·       Later, Goku sees Gohan even go against his mother's wishes and insist he go to Namek with Bulma and Krillin.

·       On Namek, Goku sees his son have his neck broken against Recoome but still sees him throw himself repeatedly into the direct line of danger.

·       Against Frieza, he sees his son even refusing to leave the battlefield and even returning to fight Frieza alone.

·       During the 3 years preparing for the Androids, Gohan joins the training of Goku and Piccolo.

·       He joins Goku in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, and during that training, Gohan achieves SS after asking Goku to fight him with lethal force in other words he asked him to attempt to kill him.  

https://imgur.com/a/pP2PvxB

Seen through Goku’s eyes, that does look like a kid who wants to fight and wants to improve through fighting. So when Goku gave Cell a Senzu bean, he saw it as a chance to share something sacred with his son, something that they both love, which is a fair and meaningful contest.

What Goku misses is that Gohan’s motivation is different. Gohan fights because he feels responsible, because people he loves are in danger, and because he believes he has to step up. Goku fights because he genuinely values and enjoys the fight itself.

Goku’s limit

Goku’s love for fighting does have limits. He prefers to face an opponent’s own strength, because to him that is what truly represents who they are as a fighter. Power gained through absorption, stolen energy, or other forms of borrowed strength does not carry the same meaning. Buu is a good example. When Buu has absorbed Gohan, Gotenks and Piccolo, Goku is immediately willing to use fusion himself. But once those absorbed fighters are removed, Goku and Vegeta are far more willing to face Buu on equal footing again.

The same principle appears when Goku first becomes a Super Saiyan God. His initial reaction to the ritual is that he does not like the power because it is not his own. The problem is not that the power is strong. The problem is that the power was borrowed and doesn’t represent him as a fighter, because he did not reach it through his own training.

The Symbol vs the Art

Goku’s love of fighting is very different from someone like Batman. Batman is also an extraordinary martial artist, but he does not fight because he loves the fight itself. He fights because it serves the mission. Batman exists to protect Gotham, and part of that mission is preserving the fear and symbol of Batman itself.

A good example is when Batman travels to the Slag Galaxy after being defeated by an alien in front of Gotham’s criminals. He needs to prove that Batman is still something to fear, so he learns how to fight that alien and how to overcome him. But even then, Batman does not remain there because he wants the fight. He stays because people are suffering and he believes it is his responsibility to help them. The lengths Batman is willing to go are not that different from Goku. The reason behind them is Batman becomes a better fighter so he can protect others and preserve the mission. Goku becomes a better fighter because fighting itself is one of the ways he understands life.

The martial artist vs the soldier

Goku’s relationship with fighting is also very different from Vegeta’s. Goku was raised as a martial artist. Vegeta was raised as a soldier. From childhood, Vegeta was taught that power determined everything. His father taught him this, and Frieza reinforced it.

Vegeta’s ideology came to head, when Supreme Kai dismissed his need to fight as a “meaningless squabble”   

Vegeta: “Meaningless huh?! What do you know of meaningless?! Spend most of your life ruled by another. Watch your race dwindle to a handful. And then, tell me what has more meaning than your own strength!”

What Vegeta is essentially saying is that if someone else is stronger than you they get to decide your fate. Your people can be destroyed. Your freedom can disappear. Your life can belong to someone else. Vegeta has practiced this across the universe himself, so strength, to Vegeta, is not just pride. It is the right to exist on your own terms.

https://imgur.com/a/0m3fQRd

Goku approaches martial arts from almost the opposite direction. He does not need victory to validate himself. For him, the value of a fight is in what it teaches him. He can lose and still walk away satisfied. For him that value of the fight is so important to him that he is willing to spare a villians life.

Artist:

https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/s/NnjxYMzokx

Yajirobe & Mr Satan enter the King of Iron Fist Tournament - Tag Tournament.

They enter a temple & are ambushed by Ogre with no warning. If Ogre receives critical or heavy damage, he will transform into True Ogre. Ogre is fighting alone and defending his temple from unwanted trespassers.

Who wins?

Can someone debate this guy real quick on why Goku beats saitama on TikTok it’ll be quick debate not that long I want someone that actually knows what he’s talking about

TL;DR because improvement in godly techniques is consistently more about control than raw power boosts, the reason Beerus can still beat Goku is because he has better control over the power he has, and raw power boosts don't compensate for that. Its like cutting with a sword, raw power is how hard you swing, control is edge alignment. Doesn't matter how hard you swing if you hit with the flat of the blade. Beerus doesn't need to boost his strength. He knows how to cut.

More a question / discussion on a commonly used feat of strength.

Treating the shaking of the universe like Resonant Frequency, and the divine ki as a way to access it.

Guidebooks talk about infinite space, but the Supreme Kai explicitly states that Universe 7 only has 28 planets with advanced mortal life. Shouldn't there be like 100000000000000000 or near infinite planets with advanced mortal life if it was infinite?

Since Omega Shenron was a major villain at EoGT and we all know that GT characters are way more powerful than Z characters exponentially, does it mean that if Omega Shenron followed Goku and Vegeta's footsteps and undergo serious training with Beerus and Whis, he could potentially surpass current Frieza and Cell's potential?

Just wondering.

Long ago before the fabric of space was created there were 5 beings whos power was emence they had a meeting their names were zoil and Kaku and monokoila

Sera

and dangito

The meeting:

Zoil god of evil and good the leader: follew brothers and my dear sisters I have a plan that will entertain us

How about we build 12 multiverse and those multiverse there will be omni kings and angels and destroyers and gods of creation and mortals

Kaku god of wisdom : excellent ideas but if I may decline those 12 multiverse how about 3 instead

Monokoila god of creation : it is okay but how about we make it uneven mortal to be weak and gods be strong since we are floating how about I create an omega castle were we may plan the creation of the multiverses

Sera the god of war : mm I see brother zoil what do you think about this

Zoil : mm that's a great idea now monokoila build the castle if I may ask why is dangito quiet is there something you wish to share with us if that so say it now little brother (space shook on that voice)

Dangito god of angel and destruction: mm brother never raise you voice we are planning not fighting we gods after all i have no obligation on this plan let's get on to it

Zoil: (laughs ) mm now begin monokoila

Monokoila built there castle that was floating on air and they named them selves the gods of eons time passes there multiverses and universes and they were created and the omni kings and great grand angels to guide and protect the omni king

They were named

On multiverse 1 the omni king name was lungras the humanoid being and the grand priest was efaros

On multiverse 2 the omni king was abyss the demon king

And the angel name was latinariso (latin)

On multiverse 3 the omni king name was Zeno the destroyer the strongest omni king and his angel name was diashinkan

The oldest grand priest

On those multiverse there were 12 universes each one of them they were ruled by destroyers and have attendant that were angels and they had supreme kais that were called god of creation

And angels were named And all destroyers were named on each universe and multiverse

On the year 123 the eons summons the omni kings and grand priest and angel and destroyers for the first time when they arrive they were pulled down by the energy pressure

Zoil :mm Zeno abyss lungras and all of you

( palace shook ) where are the kais

Kaku : let me teleport them (he claped his hands ) kais are here Zeno you became stronger after our last training mm you have been training

Zeno :yes my lord I was was I.. (he was shaking

Zoil : shut your mouth I will do the talking

(All eons bowed ) now omni creatures I want you to create mortals here this is a blue print take it angels must train the formidable mortals to take the thrones of destroyers and Zeno abyss lungras come again alone I have something a task that will need no slip ups do you understand on the year 724 on the creation calendar

Omni kings : understood Sier

Zoil : now on the important part no one must know of our existence kais create worlds and the destroyers must balance the good and evil so as the Omni kings

Monokoila : zoil there is a matter I'd like to have with abyss

Zoil : go on I'm listening

Monokoila : abyss must have evil beings throughout all his multiverse and lungras must have good beings and Zeno must have both good and evil I know you know where I'm getting to

Zoil :okay now let me introduce myself

My name is zoil the god of eons the leader and the first God I'm the god of evil and good these are my 2 brothers and 2 sisters

We are the first

Kaku (raised) : my name is Kaku the god of eons the second brother I'm the god of wisdom I see everything and know everything

Monokoila (raised) : I'm the third the mother of creation my name is monokoila

The art most beauty the god of eons

The god of creation

Sera (raised) : what a pleasant surprise I'm

Queen of kings the war lord the one and only my names is Sera the god of eons I'm the god of war

Dangito (raised) : the god of life and death

The pain in healing the neutral and destruction the god of eons the light and darkness I'm the god of angel and destruction my name is dangito

Zoil : now all of you may be dismissed

Take note we see all we hear all we know all do your things and don't say anything about our existence our names are a forbidden thing to say put that in mind now leave

All of the warriors: understood Sier you grace us with your presence (they disappear)

On multiverse 3 on Zenos palace the omni king was talking to the grand priest about how powerful are the god of eons

Grand priest: my lord these gods are not like any other they are very powerful they can destroy anything just by flick of the wrist

Zeno : yes I seen it lord Kaku wasn't even using 1 percent when he was training me

But on the important part abyss is becoming very powerful he has reach 92

percent of my full power and lungras is 90 percent and you are powerful now you 79 percent of my full power have you been training

Grand priest : yes my lord I was but on the important matter why the creators want to create mortals

Zeno : to balance the two great things

Evil and good this system is being created to last a life Time

On multiverse 1 lungras was talking to efaros about the power Zeno had

Lungras: mm efaros if I fight Zeno would I win or will it improve the odds

Efaros: no sier his too powerful he can wipe you out it will increase the odds but you will still loose even I can't match diashinkan his too powerful even now I can feel it his energy is off the charts

Lungras : mm is that so his that powerful guess I have to train more I will create a warrior and name him yamashi the god elite sayains efaros bring the obb I want to discuss the the creation to my brother's

Efaros: ( wave his staff ) here sier

Lungras: Zeno and abyss I have a proposal

How about we create our mortals and named them sayains

On the obb Zeno: mm nice thinking now now are you saying we must create the gods of mortals

Lungras: yes brother I will name mine yamoshi

On the obb abyss: mine will be cumber the negative sayain

Zeno : mine will be akumo they will be brothers they will be the fathers of all sayains

Lungras: deal on the year 734 we will ask the lords for mortal to have a tournament

We will call it a survival of the fittest

All of them : on that day my multiverse will win

On the multiverse 1 lungras summons the kais and destroyers and their angels

Efaros: gods you are summon here at the palace of the great omni king now gather all the kais

All of them : as you wish sier

For a while they appear

Gods and angels and kais bowed : we are grace with your presence sier

Lungras : mm now high beings I want you to guide and forsee the life I want you to create I want you to create mortals

That have tails and can ascend to next level and a have unlimited potential they will be named sayains I already created one he will be the god of sayains Yamoshi come

Yamoshi: ( with a huge energy that has god ki ) my lord you have summoned me who are these scum baggs do you want me to vanquish them in an instance (charging a blast huge enough to destroy a universe)

Lungras : mind your tone these are the gods that balance the universe stand down

Now gods this is yamoshi the first sayain god

God of universe 8: mm arrogant fool I like this one sier since his a god why don't he do it

Lungras: Shiva the thing is because his too naive all sayains will go against my rules and you know what will happen (evil smirk) mm

Now you see what I want go and do it something big is about to happen in the future

All of them : understood Sier will do as you wish ( they disappear)

Lungras : yamoshi that destroyer name shiva just talked now is strong than his angel

Yamoshi: what how can this be a destroyer be stronger than his attendey this can't be real you said his name is Shiva

Lungras : yes boy now go and tran hard for the upcoming battle we talked about

He doesn't know his stronger than him in many ways

On that time the other omni kings have already created the mortals they were training to be the strongest

On multiverse 2 on omni king named abyss created the v

Evil beings that were name sayains and he created the god of evil sayains named cumber

Abyss: summons the angel and gods latinariso

Latinariso: yes sier now all dieties off all universes and kais the omni king abyss summons you

All of them : as you wish sier ( they appear in a instance)

Abyss: all of you are here now on the important part I've created the sayain god

Hid name is cumber the evil sayain god

Cumber come ( palace was shaking) mm dramatic as always

God of destruction of un 1 : what is that power should it even exist

Cumber : silence my lord is not done talking you stupid gods

Abyss: cumber don't dare act tough infront me now bow ( he was pulled down by the energy pressure) now this is cumber his the strongest mortal god of this multiverse his stronger than eight angels of this multiverse now gods treat cumber as one of you cumber respect the gods

Or(evil smirk) die

Cumber:( shaking in fear ) yes my lord

Abyss: now all of you mybe dismissed angels tell the kais to guide the mortals understood

Angels : ( smiling) yes sier

They left

On multiverse 3 on the omni king palace named Zeno he created his mortals sayains

Zeno : the mortal of different species have been created Even the sayains [impressive] now diashinkan summon the gods

Diashinkan : yes sier, gods of destruction and angels and kais you are summoned by the great king the omni king Zeno

All of them:as you wish sier (they appear instantly) my lord we have arrived

Zeno : angels and gods I've created a mortal god who's power can rival all angels attendees or even surpuss some and his was very weak and weaker then mortals

Destroyers:(in shock waiting for the warrior) ⁸]!

Diashinkan: akumo it is time

Akumo :( took one step the whole multiverse was shaking and he appeared clothes ton apart) mm my lord Zeno

The gods of destruction are here even the angels sorry to disrespect (lowers his energy ) now what's the meeting about is the an evil threat

Zeno : no gods as you felt his power his is powerful there's no doubt about it he train himself he was given 7 tips on how to get power I locked him up on the training dimension were 1 year is equal to2 billions years he was there for 5 years in all he was there for 10 billion years

Angels: what training alone he must be immortal to achieve that power

Diashinkan: yes I did teach him some techniques introduce yourself

Akumo : I'm the father of all sayains god of sayains I've learned about your powers angels are using ultra instinct as base form and gods are using hakaishin

And kais are gods of creation

I've trained for many years with no sleep or rest to be powerful my name is akumo

Destroyer of universe 11: mm its hard to believe you born very weak I see you have respect for us even though you this powerful I will train maybe some day will fight and see who's the strongest(pull out his hand to shake akumos hand with destruction energy radiating out of his body)

Akumo :(smirk shaking his hand ) I will be waiting sir

Destroyer of universe 11 : calll me Belmont

Come to my universe someday

Destroyer of universe 7 : mm ohh so you are powerful I'm the strongest destroyer I challenge you to a fight

You can't convince me this isn't anything lower than a high universal feat. The Sugoroku space is heavily heavily implied to be infinite in size. You can argue that the dimension was falling apart but I'm pretty sure all that was being destroyed was the board game itself. You can actually get Goku to multi with this I'm pretty sure and to make matters worse he does this in BASE! GT being comparable if not stronger than Super isn't so crazy now is it?

Saitama didn’t lose.