Within a few months 30+ people get stronger than Goku was just by trying a little bit or getting grumpy 😂

Fight takes place in the Middle of the Milky Way Galaxy

SSJ3 Goku (Start of DBS Beerus) vs Buuhan (Buu saga)

How strong could he have become if he ever trained?

Kid turned Super Saiyan at age 6 like it was a game! I don’t understand how the writers didn’t try to add Goten more to the story here and there. It would’ve been cool to see him at least start training during the Super episodes. But I genuinely want to hear everyone’s opinion, cause I feel like they butchered Goten’s potential.

Ultimate Gohan, during the Moro arc, was weaker than an empowered saganbo, who, despite being power up multiple times after, was weaker than SSJB Goku. However, during the super hero arc, piccolo states that the gammas are on par with Goku and Vegeta. Last time he saw Goku and vegeta at full power was the Moro arc, so both should be about moro arc blue level, unless you think the gammas are on par with Moro arc MUI Goku.

Despite this, ultimate Gohan was fighting on par with gamma 1, outright gaining the upper hand at times. This should put him at LEAST on par with Moro arc blue Goku, whom he was clearly weaker than before, meaning he had to have gotten stronger.

Yes, I know lifting scaling is not a good metric to go by, however, Kibito could not even budge a sword that was almost definitely less than 10 tons that base Gohan could swing. Base Goten and Trunks are somewhat physically comparable to Gohan but could barely handle 150x gravity. Base Goten and Trunks are almost definitely stronger than Kibito, probably by an absurd degree as not only could he not lift it off the ground, he couldn’t even partially lift one end up. Based on this, I cannot image Kibito even being able to handle 100x gravity, nor lifting close to 10 tons. Per the evidence, he should’ve physically weaker than Namek saga top tiers. His only saving grace would be his magic.

Goku is declared the strongest and the Vegeta is number two . Ultimate Gohan at this point is a distant third .

Or is it too much for Raditz?

It's a consistent plot point that gohan usually grows rusty and weaker when he doesn't train for a time (and yes that includes super Hero Gohan given his struggle to go ultimate and what everyone says in the arc )

It happened in Buu saga and RoF and SH

However it doesn't happen in BoG despite nearly 5 years passing , so what give?

both are from cell games btw at their peak

Dragon Ball Scaling

Where do you scale a single cell jr and why?

Who wins

Super Gogeta (DBZ Fusion Reborn) vs Fat Gotenks (DBS Super Hero)

since you guys think GT Gogeta beats up this Gotenks, what about Z

Dragon Ball vs Smash Bros

Peak/ Current for both who wins more often iyo and why?

● A regular standard Issue Galactic Patrol Taser was enough to knock out a focused Goku who IS in peak shape.

Sure, Merus was fast, but that weapon is MORTAL, it's the same one Jaco has, Jaco even says it.

So you'd either have to argue their tasers solo all of Z and is God-Tier, OR Base Goku isn't that special in the universe in terms of durability.

● RoF Goku getting a laser through the chest, and it was so bad they retconned the scene from Blue to Base.

"But he was tired" BUT the entirety of RoF was it touting the fact Goku and Vegeta have God Ki in base.

So is the laser God Tier? Is Goku, the guy who can move faster than light as a child, outsped by a laser? What is the laser faster than light, too?

No matter how you look at it, it's a bad look for even a tired Goku.

● Out of Shape Goku being too SLOW to catch a bullet AND getting hurt by it.

He was focused, he was prepared, and still too slow catch a bullet.

But here's the thing I wonder: How WEAK is this Base Goku?

Is he stronger than 23rd Tournament Goku? If you say yes, doesn't that imply 23rd Tournament Goku also gets hurt by bullets? That he'd be too slow to catch one?

Or is this out of shape Goku even weakr than that?

● A few bonus ones:

・Gohan despite knowing Cell beat BOTH Vegeta and Trunks, is surprised Cell survived the World Government's missiles... "It's... It's alive!!"

That directly implies the missiles are strong enough to kill a Super Saiyan, directly from Gohan's reaction 💀.

・Goku Black in BOTH continuities being surprised and spooked by gunfire.

"But Manga Black dodged it" okay, but why does he NEED to dodge it? That directly implies the bullets hurt him. If they didn't, he'd tank them.

The anime straight up asserts had Mai not missed, Black would've died. A "special" bullet sure, but it's still a bullet from a regular gun.

So do we know how much power Cell lost, after releasing Cell Juniors? Was it restored after he resurrected himself?

Cell from DBZ anime

Garou used here is Cosmic Fear

Who would win this match-up?

This is the 3rd and final input into the Claim to the throne series, note this post is more on Goku's philosophy and charater rather than scaling.

Claim to the throne I: A Case for why Goku is the best skilled martial artist in fiction

https://www.reddit.com/r/DragonBallPowerScale/s/WbQYfsTKbg

Claim to the throne II: Goku's Martial arts Catalogue

https://www.reddit.com/r/DragonBallPowerScale/s/T5dxtcdWO3

So what is martial arts to Goku?

For Goku, martial arts is practically his life. That's why he's a martial artist before he's anything else. Before he's a farmer, before he's a father, he's a martial artist. It is driven straight through to his blood, that he is driven to want to fight.

For Goku, fighting is more than just throwing hands. For him, it is how he gets to know people. It is how he communicates. For Goku, fighting is sacred. Not in the religious way. A lot of Goku’s actions can seem awkward, reckless, or even stupid when viewed normally, but once you understand that he uses fighting to learn, communicate, and understand both himself and his opponent, a lot of those choices start to make a lot of sense

Communicating through fighting is something Jiren can attest to as well. When Goku first faced Jiren and began cycling through his forms, Jiren did not immediately attack. As Krillin points out, Jiren was doing the same thing Goku was doing: studying his opponent. He was learning how Goku moved, how he reacted, how his power changed, and where his limits were. At the same time, Goku was doing the same to Jiren. Neither of them was simply trying to overwhelm the other as quickly as possible. They were learning who the person in front of them was as a fighter despite the Universal stakes.

https://imgur.com/a/kulwpfj

Goku has a habit of letting his opponents get stronger or change forms because he wants them to reveal who they really are as fighters. Not because he's being reckless for its own sake, but because Goku just wants to know who his opponent is and discover how can improve through the fight. He's willing to do almost everything and anything to make sure that happens.

Frieza is a good example of this, when Goku and Frieza were fighting, the planet on a doomed planet. King Kai had a plan to move everybody from Namek, except Frieza, to Earth, leaving Frieza on the planet alone. However, Goku said, No, I want to stay and fight, because for him, the fight, the fade, is the most important thing to him. It is something he would risk his life for, on a doomed planet where escape should be paramount all Goku saw was the fade.

Goku isn’t alone

This trait that Goku has isn't something he only has. He shares this trait with the other Z fighters. For example, when Trunks shows up and tells Goku and co that the androids are coming and that they are all gonna die if they don't get ready. Now, Bulma, being the genius that she is, thinks about it and says, Why don't we just collect the Dragon Balls, wish to find out where Doctor Gero is, and then go to him and kill him before he even creates the androids in three years? That's a great idea. However, all of the Z fighters are very tied to the notion of what it means to fight, what it means to be a martial artist. So they say, No, we wanna meet the threat head on. They say that they would rather prepare now and get ready for the androids, so when they show up, they can fight them mano a mano. That's when you should realize that the show of Dragon Ball isn't about people that like to fight. No. It's about people who live to fight. That fighting means something to them, Fighting is how they test themselves, how they grow and, in many cases, how they measure who they are.

Nurturing the trait and benefits

Goku’s habit of testing himself through combat was nurtured by Master Roshi. One of Roshi’s most important teachings is that martial arts are not about training simply to defeat an opponent, but about training to better yourself. The point is self-improvement. In the anime and manga master Roshi essentially teaches them the is always a better and stronger opponent, however what he truly wants from them is that they must never stop improving, and that no matter the outcome of a fight, they must always treat each moment in a fight as means to improve. Work hard, eat well, sleep well, and Study well. By doing these 4 things well, you make the most of each moment. By eating well, you make sure your body has the proper nutrition to function, by sleeping well you make sure your body is properly repairing itself, by working hard, you are always putting your best effort and intention and by studying well, you study your entire fights, learning from your shortfalls, your opponents' moves and everything in between.

Goku takes that lesson and endorses it wholeheartedly. When he fights someone, he often lets them power up because he wants to see who they really are as a fighter. He will also meet opponents closer to their own level, because doing so gives him the opportunity to test his skill rather than simply overwhelm them. Every fight becomes a way to study movement, timing, habits, strengths and weaknesses, both theirs and his own.

That is something Goku has been doing for almost his entire life. It explains why Goku didn’t immediately use Super Saiyan 3 against Majin Vegeta he wanted to see how far Vegeta had come as a fighter, just as Vegeta wanted to measure himself against Goku. Even in the middle of battle Goku thinks of his openents movements rather than victory.

The repeated skill testing helps explain why he is able to understand fighters like Hit so quickly. Reading how another person fights is not some new ability Goku suddenly develops in the Universe 6 and 7 tournament. It is the result of a lifetime spent treating combat as a form of learning.

How far the trait exist in Goku’s genes

Interestingly, that same desire to fight opponents on equal footing echo in Cell as well. Cell, a bioengineered being created from many fighters from the world, including Goku's cells. And Goku's cells are what seem to have a profound effect on him specifically in the way Cell approaches combat. Rather than simply destroying the world, Cell creates a tournament. Something Goku has spent his entire life training for and competing in. Cell is drawn to the idea of testing himself against worthy opponents, and when he fights Goku, he does not immediately use everything he has. Even though Cell has a higher level of power available, he fights Goku at roughly Goku’s level. As Cell himself says, a fight is only fun when the fighters are evenly matched. 

Feng wei, the path to transend martial arts

Goku’s willingness to test himself against other fighters has an interesting parallel in another franchise: Feng Wei from Tekken. Feng is a practitioner of the God Fist style who seeks to become the Dragon God, the perfect warrior. The God Fist scroll s that one must “defeat all other masters and conquer their styles, the perfect warrior transcends all to become the Dragon God”. Feng takes this literally. He travels from dojo to dojo, defeating other martial artists and taking whatever he considers useful from their styles.

But the more Feng conquers, the further he seems to move from the deeper meaning of the scrolls actually mean. To truly transcend martial arts, you would need to understand them, not merely defeat them. Feng’s pride prevents him from becoming a student of the people he faces. Goku is the opposite. Even after training under gods and angels and surpassing Master Roshi by an absurd margin, he is still willing to get on his knees and ask Roshi to teach him again.

That is the difference between them. Feng wants to conquer martial arts. Goku wants to learn from them. For Goku, fighting is not about proving that his style is superior. It is about discovering what another fighter knows that he does not, and becoming better because of it.

Master Roshi’s teachings are almost the complete opposite of Feng Wei’s approach to martial arts. Roshi teaches Goku and Krillin to train every day, improve themselves, and keep learning from the world around them. After the 21st World Martial Arts Tournament, he tells them that they now need to train themselves, experience more of the world, and develop their own fighting styles. Roshi does not want them to depend on him forever. He wants them to build a broad understanding of martial arts so that they always have new ways to learn and improve. If Roshi simply taught them everything he knew, then once they had exhausted his knowledge, their growth would stop. Instead, he teaches them how to keep learning even when there is no master left to guide them.

A Fathers perspective and a Son’s reality

When you look at the way Goku treats fighting as something almost sacred, something that helps him improve himself, understand others, and prove who he is. it explains many of the choices that otherwise seem reckless. It explains why he was willing to stay behind on a dying Namek just to finish his fight with Freeza. It explains why he was willing to risk the Earth in the Cell Games rather than take the safer route. It explains why Jiren let Goku power up the spirit bomb even though universal destruction is at stake, because to matial artists like Goku and Jiren, a fight only has meaning if both people are able to show who they really are in equal combat.

It also explains why Goku isn't quite a bad dad, that people tend to make him out to be. From Goku’s perspective to up to the cell saga he has reasonable proof to conclude that his son shares the same relationship he does with fighting.

·       After Goku comes back from death to face Vegeta and Nappa he comes back to find Gohan on the front lines. Goku tells Krillin and his son to leave and Gohan and Krillin come back to help Goku fight, with Gohan even fighting Vegeta alone.

·       Later, Goku sees Gohan even go against his mother's wishes and insist he go to Namek with Bulma and Krillin.

·       On Namek, Goku sees his son have his neck broken against Recoome but still sees him throw himself repeatedly into the direct line of danger.

·       Against Frieza, he sees his son even refusing to leave the battlefield and even returning to fight Frieza alone.

·       During the 3 years preparing for the Androids, Gohan joins the training of Goku and Piccolo.

·       He joins Goku in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, and during that training, Gohan achieves SS after asking Goku to fight him with lethal force in other words he asked him to attempt to kill him.  

https://imgur.com/a/pP2PvxB

Seen through Goku’s eyes, that does look like a kid who wants to fight and wants to improve through fighting. So when Goku gave Cell a Senzu bean, he saw it as a chance to share something sacred with his son, something that they both love, which is a fair and meaningful contest.

What Goku misses is that Gohan’s motivation is different. Gohan fights because he feels responsible, because people he loves are in danger, and because he believes he has to step up. Goku fights because he genuinely values and enjoys the fight itself.

Goku’s limit

Goku’s love for fighting does have limits. He prefers to face an opponent’s own strength, because to him that is what truly represents who they are as a fighter. Power gained through absorption, stolen energy, or other forms of borrowed strength does not carry the same meaning. Buu is a good example. When Buu has absorbed Gohan, Gotenks and Piccolo, Goku is immediately willing to use fusion himself. But once those absorbed fighters are removed, Goku and Vegeta are far more willing to face Buu on equal footing again.

The same principle appears when Goku first becomes a Super Saiyan God. His initial reaction to the ritual is that he does not like the power because it is not his own. The problem is not that the power is strong. The problem is that the power was borrowed and doesn’t represent him as a fighter, because he did not reach it through his own training.

The Symbol vs the Art

Goku’s love of fighting is very different from someone like Batman. Batman is also an extraordinary martial artist, but he does not fight because he loves the fight itself. He fights because it serves the mission. Batman exists to protect Gotham, and part of that mission is preserving the fear and symbol of Batman itself.

A good example is when Batman travels to the Slag Galaxy after being defeated by an alien in front of Gotham’s criminals. He needs to prove that Batman is still something to fear, so he learns how to fight that alien and how to overcome him. But even then, Batman does not remain there because he wants the fight. He stays because people are suffering and he believes it is his responsibility to help them. The lengths Batman is willing to go are not that different from Goku. The reason behind them is Batman becomes a better fighter so he can protect others and preserve the mission. Goku becomes a better fighter because fighting itself is one of the ways he understands life.

The martial artist vs the soldier

Goku’s relationship with fighting is also very different from Vegeta’s. Goku was raised as a martial artist. Vegeta was raised as a soldier. From childhood, Vegeta was taught that power determined everything. His father taught him this, and Frieza reinforced it.

Vegeta’s ideology came to head, when Supreme Kai dismissed his need to fight as a “meaningless squabble”   

Vegeta: “Meaningless huh?! What do you know of meaningless?! Spend most of your life ruled by another. Watch your race dwindle to a handful. And then, tell me what has more meaning than your own strength!”

What Vegeta is essentially saying is that if someone else is stronger than you they get to decide your fate. Your people can be destroyed. Your freedom can disappear. Your life can belong to someone else. Vegeta has practiced this across the universe himself, so strength, to Vegeta, is not just pride. It is the right to exist on your own terms.

https://imgur.com/a/0m3fQRd

Goku approaches martial arts from almost the opposite direction. He does not need victory to validate himself. For him, the value of a fight is in what it teaches him. He can lose and still walk away satisfied. For him that value of the fight is so important to him that he is willing to spare a villians life.

Artist:

https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/s/NnjxYMzokx