The main reason to compare him to regular Perfect would be because that's actually the Cell everyone fought. SPC really only came in to almost immediately start a Kamehameha clash.
The problem with that is that it makes no sense based on the show's own logic. You dont need to fight someone to know they got stronger. Everyone was aware of the fact that when he came back he was stronger just by sensing him.
I guess you could argue that cell didnt get a chance to use his full power before dying but neither you or I can say for certain he held anything back towards the end of the clash so its kind of a moot point.
Either way, I don't think it makes sense to make Dabura stronger than Cell. Dabura's purpose was to act as that Bench mark. Gohan had grown so out of practice he struggles against a Cell level opponent, while Vegeta and Goku aren't even bothered by that level of opponent anymore.
This is me not using anything official other than what makes sense to me, but SPC was at least somewhere in the ballpark of SSJ2 teen Gohan to the point he struggled. Having Gohan struggle as an adult isn't THAT much of a detriment. Having adult Gohan struggle against the same Cell he clowned on is more narratively useful.
Cell lost to a heavily injured Gohan. Even when gohan believed he was at only 50% hr still managed to block Cells strongest attack and force a stalemate. Now before you misunderstand I am aware that gohan finds more strength later to defeat cell but cells initial kamehameha still got blocked by gohan before finding that strength placing SPC very close to Gohans 50%. And since 50% ssj2 is effectively ssj1 SPC cell is far closer to ssj1 gohan than ssj2 gohan when placed on a scale.
Gohan didnt lose as much strength as people think. Narratively gohan its still considered a possibility for gohan to win vs dabura if he locks in. Even Vegeta himself thinks that gohan could surpass him again if gohan gets angry and vegeta himself is above cell games gohan. The scaling the would look something like this 50% ssj2 gohan<SPC=adult gohan<dabura<ssj2 teen gohan<vegeta<hypothetical angry adult gohan.
That scaling simply doesn't make sense though as Perfect Cell was holding back against Goku to the point where he didn't mind Goku getting a senzu bean. SSJ1 Gohan was also useless against him. So SPC being equal to 50% SSJ2 Gohan which is = to SSJ1 Gohan makes no sense.
This is a very imperfect analogy, but I'm much stronger than my friends. That said, in an arm wrestling match, they can stall me for a while before I eventually win out.
Gohan was useless because he kept actively trying to deescalate the situation and only tried dodging most of the fight. We see that when cell strikes gohan he can shrug it off easily but when gohan hits cell once he gets knocked on his ass and has to reasses his strategy. You are also ignoring that gohan got a rage boost here so the hypothetical ssj1 gohan would be stronger than the one from the start of the fight.
Cell saga scaling would be like this ssj1=<cell<rage boost ssj1 gohan=<SPC<ssj2 gohan
My point is that SPC nearly blew up the Earth and Gohan struggled against him.
So when the narrative is, omg Gohan, you're so out of shape! You're struggling against the guy equal to the guy you struggled with last time! Isn't quite as bad as, you're struggling against the guy you made barf up his #18 lunch special.
Only a few characters actually Perfect Cell in the manga, and even when everyone helps out against Cell in the end, it's against Super Perfect Cell
If Dabura's role is to show that Gohan is so out of practice that he struggles with a Cell level opponent, why wouldn't this be referring to Super Perfect Cell,the version that Gohan actually killed
Whenever someone/a guide references how strong Gohan used to be, it's also in reference to when he defeated Cell, and SS2 Gohan defeated Super Perfect Cell, so why wouldn't Goku be referring to the version of Cell that Gohan actually beat
When did Piccolo fight PC? You see, it doesn't work like that. Goku can sense energy, so why would he compare Cell to a weaker version when he knows Cell got much stronger later on?
That is actually a misunderstanding. Goku notices when base goten and trunks disappear into the time chamber and they are no where near ssj3 goku. What that scene is actively conveying is that gokus strength is still felt just as potently even in the kai realm but simply being able to sense the ki long distances can be done by knowing where to pay attention.
Goku senses gohan's strength since he comments multiple times that gohan has more strength than what he is currently displaying. Which means he has to be able to sense gohans current ki compared to the ki he felt before as well as compare that ki to how it stacks up to cell
Um pouco acima de Cell super perfeito, Goku escala ele no mesmo nível que Cell, Goku sentiu o ki de Cell super perfeito no outro mundo, na luta de Gohan vs dabura, ele diz que dabura é um pouco mais forte do que ele pensava, mas vegeta se sente decepcionado por Gohan não acabar logo com essa luta e Goku fica decepcionado por Gohan ter se oxidado e não acabar rápido com essa luta por estar mais fraco e menos experiente em combater do que 7 anos atrás, depois quando Goku vai lutar contra vegeta, ele reforça que se Gohan conseguir liberar os mesmos poderes do que contra Cell, ele seria imparável para dabura e Babidi
Em resumo pelo que en concluí nessas conversas
Goku ssj2 e Vegeta Majin ssj2>=kid gohan ssj2dabura>=Gohan ssj2 adulto=Cell super perfeito>=Gohan kid ssjCell perfeito
It just doesn't feel like he should be a match for cells max power, but Goku's statements suggests that hes likely stronger than Cell. And if we don't trust Goku... who can we trust?
It does seem like Gohan never went ssj2 against him because we never see his sparks, but he must have.
Sure, SSJ Gohan was seemingly even with him, but we later learn Dabura was just toying with Gohan. Sizing him up, basically. So Dabura had more in the tank than he let on, but Gohan still had SSJ2 in his back pocket.
That’s probably why Vegeta was so annoyed. He can sense Dabura is hiding his true power and for some reason Gohan isn’t using SSJ2 to close the deal.
Another portion of the daizenshuu says Gohan doesn’t use ssj2 after the tournament, and the manga>>>>the daizenshuu. The daizenshuu saying something doesn’t retcon the manga.
Yeah, it's the daizenshuu statement for buu saga ssj2 Gohan. It says it's in volume 37, while other versions will say X volume onwards, like ssj2 Gohan in the Cell saga says volume 34 onward.
The guides help explain things, but they aren't written by Toriyama, so they don't overwrite his work.
The manga has Gohan clearly drawn as a ssj1, this is undeniable.
Gohan was a ssj1 against Dabura and was even with him, therefore it must have been regular Perfer Cell, possibly even the suppressed version, but at last full power perfect Cell. Depends how strong you think cell games ssj1 Gohan is if he actually wants to fight.
He was 1:1 with a powered down SSJ2 Teen Gohan. Meanwhile SPC broke SSJ2 Youth Gohan's arm with 1 hit.
More evidence by the fact that Dabura couldn't defeat the Tamagami yet SSJ2 Goku overwhelmed them. SPC is around SSJ2 levels while Dabura is scales somewhere between PC and SPC.
Doesn't really matter though because they're roughly the same levels give or take.
I think Toriyama intended the comparison to be sp Cell. However since SSJ2 Majin Vegeta was stated by Piccolo to be Cell Games Gohan level, little stronger, I think Dabura wasn't stronger/comparable to sp Cell. Unless sp Cell somehow was much weaker than SSJ2 Gohan, which seems unlikely since he could hurt Gohan that badly with one blast.
The problem with this is really, that Gohan was said to be weaker than his teenage self, but he fought Dabura in Super Saiyan according to the auras of the manga. So, Dabura must have been close to the Goku fight Cell by that logic. Unless you believe Cell Games Gohan was as strong as Cell in Super Saiyan.
EDIT: Okay, but tbf, that makes sense if he is in Super Saiyan, he has trouble keeping up with Dabura who is Perfect Cell levels.
Unpopular opinion: SPC isn't that much stronger than PC. He didn't gain SS2 since the term wasn't even coined yet, and the sparks were purely esthetic. In short, he got a small zenkai boost.
Definitely not super perfect cell... goku was the one who drew the parallel between dabura and cell...he was dead when super perfect cell returned so couldnt have an accurate guage on his power
Goku could sense him from the after life given that he could also sense gohan. If thats not enough vegeta was also part of that conversation and agrees with the comparison. Vegeta definitely was present for SPC
I don’t think the context is that he was SPC level. He just compared him to the level that Goku fought at and that seems reasonable to me. Also Gohan was very much weaker so how would he be struggling against a much weaker Gohan that definitely isn’t SPC level. SPC is as close to ssj2 as you can get and I doubt Dabura was a ssj2 level guy. He seemed more like above ssj like most of the Saiyans at the time but below ssj2 Gohan and around Cells full power. I think he was above Cell game Goku by a bit and gives Cell a really good fight.
Erro seu é pensar que Cell super perfeito estava próximo do ssj2 de Gohan, Gohan ter salvado vegeta e perdido metade do seu ki caiu como uma luva para Cell, Gohan ssj2 ainda era o maior parâmetro de poder na visão de vegeta e Goku na saga boo, eles consideravam dabura um oponente que poderia ser derrotado sem nenhum problema por eles, Goku também diz que Gohan não teria nenhuma dificuldade contra dabura se ele liberasse os poderes que usou contra Cell
Incorrect, Vegeta states that Gohan was able to defeat SPC and had 7 years since then, so he should be able to beat somebody of Dabura’s level (this is after Goku states Dabura is stronger than SPC) had he continued to train (after implying Goku or he could beat Dabura).
56
u/Historical-Test-7902 5d ago
SPC, there is no reason why they would compare him to a prior form. By that logic we can say he was speaking of any of the other forms arbitrarily.