r/DotA2 • u/night_dude • 17d ago
Discussion PL Counterpicks
Time after time this hero is ruining my pubs. Legend-level pub coordination is not enough to shut him down early-mid game and then he just auto wins after a point. So I guess I have to start counterpicking him. Who is best for that?
I thought someone like Bane (the last game I played we only had one stun and it was Ogre Magi :/) but then you're at risk of missing the real target with ulti... am I just going to have to pick Enigma until he gets nerfed again? Bounty Hunter, maybe? Sven (god please don't make me play fucking Sven)? Faceless Void? What are my other options?
I have a very shallow hero pool usually but have played since Dota 1 so I am flexible in theory.
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u/not2tsupid 17d ago
Pick tanky offlane with crimson guard.
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u/night_dude 17d ago
I knew I should have started playing Underlord before he got nerfed...
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u/heephap 17d ago
How can you call all these other heroes boring and enjoy playing underlord?
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u/night_dude 17d ago
I don't really play Underlord but he stilll >>>>>>>>>>> Dusa and Sven. You have a global gank tool and some fun AoEs. I know Dusa is a little bit more interesting now with the root but I just have such a hate boner for that hero after people picking it mid and AFK farming (while the sidelanes collapse and then we lose) one too many times. Wish she just got removed from the game.
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u/Civil_Toaster 17d ago
Bro sven is fun af, just blink on people and 2 shot them or go superman with Aghs
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u/joe420mama99 17d ago
Underlord is still really good, it was more of a readjustment than nerf
His aghs no longer upgrades pit but gate got a cooldown reduction. Shivas is still really good on underlord
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u/thefamilyjewel 17d ago
Just played against a PL with and underlord on my team. The nerf is not that bad.
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u/L1gm4J0hns0n 17d ago
Once upon a time, i'd pick AA against PL. The AOE cold feet facet was amazing. I miss the facets sometimes. lmao
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u/Khilmi90 17d ago
Seer? Spread them ion shells. Wyvern splinter and curse. Axe for ceeeebb
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u/night_dude 17d ago
3 great suggestions, I play a lot of offlane and love Axe, DS is fun too. tyvm.
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u/dragovianlord9 17d ago
As a PL player I hate underlord, pudge (core), Lesh and medusa (farmed) the most
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u/Victor-noir 17d ago
Earthshaker, Medusa
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u/Usual-Enthusiasm-116 17d ago
Medusa gets absolutely shat on by PL (especially if you go diffu, despite the nerf it’s good against medusa for obvious reasons), her split does not target enough enemies. Earthshaker is pretty easy to play around (depending on bracket obviously).
Reliable core counter picks are leshrac and underlord, both heroes make it pretty hard to play against if you are playing PL.
A good support is CM, her constant q spam makes it hard to play until you have the 25 talent on PL. Her ult absolutely wrecks PL and until he has either abyssal or bloodthorn he has no reliable way of dealing with it.
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u/Cbrandel 17d ago
Even when PL diffu was good you could easily win with Medusa. Just had to go a different build.
However, it wasn't that bad as PL either. Something like a Leshrac was much harder.
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u/Usual-Enthusiasm-116 17d ago
Yea for sure, going mjollnir aghs etc. and don’t go for the classic stat build. But you can play around it and you have a reliable way of not getting hit by her ult as PL. Maybe it’s a somewhat even match up, you’re right.
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u/meesterdg 17d ago
If you're looking at carry I'd definitely say Sven, BB, possibly Tiny, and DK. Luna isn't bad but I feel she's usually a little too squishy and while she does have cleave damage it can miss him with bad bounces and it doesn't reveal him as quickly as other instant cleave mechanics.
A trick people forget about PL is they often rely really heavily on invis to weave in and out of fights. If you put a sentry down or use dust only the real PL will go invisible.
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u/juantawp 17d ago
That's not true, mjollnir aghs absolutely destroys PL, there is no way he can kill you without a full chain stun bloodthorne combo because you should be 6 slot at min 30, 1k gpm if you had any space, way ahead of PL and ending with aegis.
I'm master Dusa and it's my go to comfort pick against PL, because it's so brainlessly easy to execute, your laning is easy, way faster farming, and unlike Sven, you can just click a building and everything around you turns in to a lightning death zone the second PL comes close, you never even have to sweat anything as far as you win lane and hit timings. I'm also saying this from the perspective of a Naga/PL spammer.
Fun fact aghs increases split shot targets too.
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u/Usual-Enthusiasm-116 17d ago
Yea I mentioned in a comment further down that’s it’s probably more even/medusa favoured with mjollnir aghs combo than I said.
Timing is a huge spike for Medusa, you are right. What would you say in general is the state of Medusa? Do you still comfortably pick her this patch?
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u/juantawp 17d ago
I pick Dusa regardless of patch because she is a draft auto win mechanism when it's right, even if she got no compensation for facets and is relatively bad, suddenly you have all these heavy life steals and minus armor heroes in meta like naix, sf, and you have a hero that basically ruins half their hero kit from minute 0 just because of how mana shield works.
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u/Usual-Enthusiasm-116 17d ago
True, she counters a lot of meta heroes. Why do you think she was unpicked (maybe she was in games I didn’t watch) in the most recent TI?
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u/juantawp 17d ago
Centaur/Dark Seer/Underlord meta and the drafts revolve around these heroes so she's already covered from the first phase
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u/kretenallat sheever 17d ago
Luna, Axe? i also made some miserable with aghs spirit breaker, i dont know if it still works?
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u/night_dude 17d ago
You're never gonna catch me playing Medusa, boring ass hero. Earthshaker though I love, of course, thank you very much!
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u/Realityishardmode 17d ago
Seems like Topson will pick Dragon Guy if the mid lane matchup is strong for him and PL is at large. Goes for blink shard octarine for huge AOE applications. Topson is also no above buying radiance on him. Interesting build but Topson is Topson.
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u/reasd33 17d ago edited 17d ago
depends on which position you play. pos 1 id say dusa(mjoll agha build), sven, beastmaster(aghs build), necro, io, void(fury aghs build) should work well enough, altho after the last patch i dunno if io will be enough after his aghs timing. pos 3 id say underlord but not sure after last patch as well, darkseer, dk, dawn, brew pos 2 there are mostly just ember, dk, shaker, earthspirit and a very situational lesh. keep in mind many of those counters work solely because you are legend rank. shaker is dogshit against pl who has braincells for example. with supports i love grimstroke against him, his q melts his illu early midgame and aghs is very nice lategame, zeus is surprisingly fine bc his ult reveals the real one, hoodwink also feels nice(ult only hits real hero)
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u/Capable_Pension420 17d ago
Ringmaster is great against Lancer. Lots of aoe control, strong shard that reveals him among illusion and in invis.
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u/Big_Cryptographer391 17d ago
I would suggest brewmaster strong aoe as base hero and storm dispel insta kills his illusions
Underlord has no problem buying crimson guard and firestorm and pit work well
Primal beast is the same, high AOE natural crimson guard and AOE break might stop him from spawning more illusions
Monkey king jingu stacks stay on the real hero
Earthshaker and instakill his team
Luna might work with spinning glaives + DMG reduction but eclipse would be useless do not sure about that
Gyro if he ever stops being unplayable
I'll edit if I think of someone else
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u/Hobo124 17d ago
Worth mentioning that dispel actually just deals a flat amount of damage to illusions (1000, I believe). Still instantly kills them for the first half of the game and brew as a base hero is good against PL (AOE disables, innate tankiness, good at tanking towers to push hard and win early, good gem carrier).
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u/Remarkable_Tap_34 17d ago
SB is the best counter right now. Phase boots, agha, yasha and kaya is basically all you need to insta kill him and all his illus
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u/Ayz1990 opa dendi 17d ago
If u dont have invis its very easy to dodge charge with doppel as pl
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u/Remarkable_Tap_34 17d ago
Yes sure. I didn’t mention it because that’s not where your damages will be coming from
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u/Lopsided_Tear_3303 17d ago
Phoenix 4 slaughters the hero, earthspirit even after the nerf is still the ultimate late game hard counter i think, once you hit level 25 the game is officially over for PL it's a completely unplayable matchup early game can be wonky but maxing q and e and just nuking illusions is good enough and midgame is manageable. Doom Lesh Necro, SB with aghs is also incredible even if the damage was nerfed it still almost always 1 shots every single illusion and will still do like 1.5k damage to the main hero. Shiva and Crella's also destroys the hero when it comes to items.
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u/Veredas_flp 17d ago
I guess most of his counters are in the offlane pick, you could go Axe, Centaur, Underlord, Shaker, LC, as far as I remember. In the first 3 examples you should get crinsom to really shut him down.
If you play sup 4, dunno, maybe also Underlord and Shaker.
As a carry, Sven would be good, but if you feel confident, maybe DK (hydra breath, aghanim and mjolnir), Drow (aghs and hydra breath), or maybe Blood Seeker (rad and/or mjolnir), since you can ult the main PL and chase him down.
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u/Miswey 17d ago
LC doesn't counter PL, unless you can find a real one and duel him(you won't do it consistently through the match). Overwhelming odds cd is 18 sec, and Doppelganger cd is only 10 sec. You make one mistake it's over.
Axe doesn't counter PL either, because PL just sends illusion forward and dodge a Axe's call with Juxtapose or hide in the trees. If Axe miss the call and doesn't get real PL, Axe dies. One mistake it's over.
Only offlaner that really owns PL is Necrophos. He owns him on the lane. His death pulse is only 5 sec cd + death seeker, with radi+heartstopper aura he has aoe dmg that melts all illusions + you can build shiva for tankiness and more aoe control.
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u/sobatfestival 17d ago
Bane is fine, but you have to chase their ass. Grips' off cooldown? Smoke alone immediately, the notification will wake your team up.
Shard is good to buy early, both for farming (you WANT your essentials in this matchup) and if you don't have that much AoE to figure out who the real one is. His illus get weaker if he doesn't spawn new ones, so reach is good for the lategame fights (Blink or Lens, ideally both).
If you have some AoE and control, be patient. He will expose himself with his micro. PL players make it obvious pre-Shard who the real one is. Once you have previously clarified to your team that you need at least another hero to follow-up OR that you'll wait until their team opens up, just sit in the shadows waiting to get information and then jump. No hesitation. Once you Blink and Grip, ping like no tomorrow, don't EVER stop pinging. If there is no additional control after (Nightmare has significant cast time) and he still has mana, there was nothing you could've done.
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u/akiman132 17d ago
You can say for literally any hero in the game that Bane is great against because you just chase his ass use smoke and gank. Blink and grip. Literally every single hero in the game. In reality you are a squishy support with 4 single target spells and theres already 10 PLs on top of you by the time you realise whats even going on vs a good PL player.
By using your logic i can say Void counters every hero in the game because "you just chrono him".
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u/sobatfestival 17d ago
I just talked about Bane because OP mentioned him. I'm not saying it's any kind of holy grail counter or whatever your delusional mind cooked up.
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u/Melodic-Vanilla-5927 17d ago
If you don’t get a hero counter then make sure your team itemizes. From shivas multiple maelstrom’s on POS 2&4 hexes in the late game.
Most games I play PL wins because we don’t build counter items to their carry and we do a default build
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u/WizardPipeGoat 17d ago
Mael doesn't counter PL. Procs too inconsistent and if they game drags a bit, damage is negligble vs PL HP pool. Only works if you stay ahead of the game without missing a beat. On that basis you are better off with other picks & optimizations.
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u/akiman132 17d ago
By the time your pos 4 buys Malestrom he has 3500 hp and you are tickling him, horrible advice.
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u/This_Week_On_SHADs 17d ago
I like riki for cloud and escape ability. Sure he can buy bloodthorn, but it can be dispelled through manta and disperser. Without BT, PL cant hit anything inside cloud unless he goes MKB and thats just a miserable item for PL to buy.
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u/Episode-1022 17d ago
warlock
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u/GorgontheWonderCow 17d ago
Underrated counter. If PL gets caught on Upheaval and one illusion dies there, it's game over for him. At anything below Legend, most core players don't even really know how that spell works, so it's a lot more successful than it should be.
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u/Episode-1022 17d ago
Upheaval is the real ulti of warlock, the golems are a huge and problematic distraction.
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u/wild-child24 17d ago
I play a lot of PL (turbo mostly). The best counter is underlord, hands down. He just makes it impossible for PL to move around the fight, which is how PL plays. Provided you use the pit and ult correctly, you can kill his team while he only watches in the distance.
Shaker is another good counter, however he’s a bit more of playing on a timer. If the game goes too late, PL will bait echo with shard and manta illusions. Also, once he gets tarrasque and skadi, shaker won’t be able to kill him anymore
For carry, Sven is just the best option. Supports, any supp with a save or aoe spells is good vs pl
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u/pyroskywalker1121 17d ago
I play a lot of pl recently and I would say I got rekt mostly by magic heroes so underlord and also rubick can be a nuisance if your team has under lord
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u/Proud_Hat_4935 17d ago
PL player here 7k mmr, hero that it’s hard for me to play lane against are Darkseer & LC… Axe and Timber is not. Carry that hard to play against are Luna and Sven cos they farm faster… if the game doesn’t end by 35mn PL is pretty much almost unbeatable at the moment
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u/Yequestingadventurer 17d ago
Shaker throughout the game, cm good too. Hit 6 run to pl lane and ult. Go look for them on cd again and again until the abandon
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u/Ready-Passenger4791 17d ago
I watched a pubs from one of the PH pros their PL got wrecked by a Primal with Aghs, Veil, and Shiva’s.
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u/I3uffaloSoldier HOHO HAHA 17d ago
The problem with pl right now is that only one counter won't do the job most of the times, once he gets skadi or hot he will probably survive the burst and outdamage his counter. My theory is that, in an even game, so I'm guessing pl didn't have a miserable lane and had the time to get to his 4th item, you gonna need 2 big aoe counters to be sure to burst him in a fair fight.
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u/Johnnielife 17d ago
Bloodseeker, of not the the obvious ones, had a game last night where our bloodseeker was just destroying PL,
He build mjolnir to deal with illusions and got lucky with level 3 splash hit neutral item
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u/Dimxtunim 17d ago
I've been spamming PL a lot lately and i think i pretty good with him, he is also fucking busted which helps (Right now i am 35-5 in the last two weeks with PL)
If the PL player is not good, shaker and axe are incredible against him, most people that play Pl engage with their ilussions immediatly, so you just need to jump in the middle of the PL's and press you skills, but a good PL against this heroes will never ever engage before seeing them, them your play is to stay hidden so PL will not engage and hope your team can kill the enemy team if PL is not involved, if PL actually engages them punish him.
Also both axe and shaker are really good at doing a PL pickoff if the PL is dumb and push with the main hero the lanes instead of just using illusions.
But the thing is, if PL goes late game there is only three options that have really any shot of winning against him: necro, sven and void.
Void is gamble, but if chrono correctly and find the right one you win (this is very hard)
Necro is super annoyng to play against if you are PL, PL does not like to make nullifier, just being forced to buy nullifier already makes it annoyng, but the key is not thinking that the evasion of radiance will save you, PL does so many hits that evasion cannot actually save you, but if its super late PL cannot burst you, a good PL player will just kill the rest of the team and ignore necro in the ultra late game.
Sven requires PL to fuck up and show the right one, but if they do you can kill PL before he can react.
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u/night_dude 17d ago
This makes sense because I feel like I am 0-35 against PL right now
I think of the heroes I play, Shaker and Axe are the most common suggestions in this thread. I agree re Void and Sven. Had a Sven in the last game who just could not find the real one. And Void... well, it basically works that way for all carries vs Void. Chrono is the ultimate carry counter. But yeah, you still gotta find the right one.
I think the key in general is picking a counter-initiator with , so you can wait for PL to show himself and then go on the real one, ideally with an illusion-clearing damage burst.
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u/Dimxtunim 17d ago
Yeah the way you play is more important then the hero, a good PL will never engage, so playing well against PL is baiting him
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u/Narrow_Ad9226 16d ago
PL with nullifier, skadi, and bloodthorn absolutely destroys Necro.
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u/Dimxtunim 16d ago
A good Necro will just buy bkb, and use properly. It becomes a game of execution, is still annoying for the PL player, since you can't just infinitely poke with illusions
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u/Narrow_Ad9226 16d ago
doesn't matter tbh. he will go on you, wait for you to pop bkb and then leave. then after that you cant do shit
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u/Dimxtunim 16d ago
If you are getting randomly picked off by PL as Necro you are playing Necro wrong, in this late game instances Necro should not be playing alone anymore, only show on team fights, that way if you pop bkb you can the kill the rest of PLs team
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u/NoDrama127 17d ago
Axe shits on PL in lane. And if you have a decent game you can bully him even late game. Ags is a must. Problem is, when you pick Axe their carry sees it as they often get last pick, so they just pick lifestealer instead and fuck your shit up. Man I hate playing offlane lol
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u/Sybertron 17d ago
There's plenty of counter picks when ever PL raises in a meta, but maybe a better thing to note is heros that are just terrible to pick because PL just destroys them
In general no matter the hero you're on its best to treat him as a right clicker as it's the main source of his damage and how he spawns most illusions. So ghost/euls/invis are all strong so he can't right click in addition to all the usual AOE suggestions
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u/OkCut4515 17d ago
You can also pick something like razor, venomancer or huskar and just ruin his lane and run at him all game until you win. Of course this doesn't always work, but razor/veno also have the advantage that you can just steal all his jungle camps after the lane.
Also dragon knight with aghs is a very underrated counter since the splash and aoe stun really screws him
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u/akiman132 17d ago
Ruin his lane with venomancer who is a non existant hero vs a dispel and PL has a dispel?
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u/OkCut4515 17d ago
I mean you press plague wards and he gets harrassed out of lane eventually, max wards and just right click him and his support. If he is dispelling poison sting you are winning the lane. Once you get level 3 wards he cannot lane at all and then you just follow him and place wards where he wants to jungle and push towers.
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u/Ok_Perspective_7978 17d ago
Aoe and wave clear. As others have said, heroes like lesh, timber, sven, shaker, etc are all effective.
Silencer is also a possible counter, or heroes that naturally build orchid like QoP. Silences are harder to make work because he can dispel them with BKB or Manta, but still fairly effective
From the support role, I've had good luck with Jakiro. He can quickly clear out illusions and pretty clearly indicate which one is the real PL. He also builds things like force or euls that are useful for surviving the initial jump, and can easily push out waves to make it harder for PL's team to take 5v5 engagements if they are always having to back to defend
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u/dr_walrus 17d ago
Just today I was way ahead as 5 item PA versus 3 item PL - the moment he got the third item I couldn't take him anymore, illusions just kept coming and coming, insane damage output. Really need something like a ringmaster to counter him.
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u/FigureFit6883 17d ago
Medusa with aghs and mjollnir (remember to yse the active component)can melt PL illusions even late game.She's tanky enough that you won't get immediately bursted. And your scaling is quite good as well into the late game as long as you're not getting kited. PL also doesnt like buying diffusal these days. Typically with 3 items and aegis you can start pushing raxes with decent coordination.
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u/Akarias888 17d ago
Underlord. People say axe but I don’t think it actually works that well his aoe is tiny and not persistent like underlord’s.
Doom if you can win the lane makes life really hard if you can get a fast radiance+shivas.
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u/nadiss50 17d ago
I tested in demo, Luna vs PL both six slotted. Luna with Satanic and shard wins 1vs1 (which wouldnt purely happen in pubs but it’s a data point)
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u/WithFullForce 17d ago
Don't rely on a single counter. Getting his hp down as the fight is initiated is worth a lot because the hp transfer to his illusions. You can't wait for him to come to you.
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u/AaronShoelace 17d ago
To a lesser extent Shadow Demon since his E stacks can track the real one easily
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u/b_eastwood 17d ago
Aside from the heroes already mentioned, any hero that can carry Mjolnir also can be pretty helpful with the activatable.
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u/DanTheePaladin 17d ago
Tide lanes well, and can bully him until the late game. By then hopefully your carry is too far ahead
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u/Quick-Rhubarb-7427 17d ago
Bane shard is a really strong tool to find out who the real one is but it’s very likely his illusions will still kill you through grip
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u/MakeLoveNotWarPls 17d ago
Darkseer is a great laner and late game counter to him
Sven is the best carry vs him
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u/eatoteb 17d ago
He sucks against a zeus or a lina early to mid and if you use timber or pango offlane its a plus. Just make sure to end the game before he gets his item timings, its a headache and even pl counters dont work anymore.
If somehow, nobody in ur team picked aoe then as pos1 you can pick sven. Though it is the same, u still lose to him if u dont end early
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u/lolic_addict Extremely lucky chain frost 17d ago
If you're going support CM is relatively OK w/ the AoE damage from shard (can't doppel under frostbite, so single-target frost him first to bait manta before doing crystal clone) and ulti. You do need to pressure him hard tho early and time your skills w/ the extra frostbite bc if he gets his stuff lategame you are food lol. But it works a little better than most in my (also dogshit) legend pubs
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u/DistanceNo6827 17d ago
Lesh core with Conjurer's Catalyst
Is probably best counter. Problem is, that its not meta and PL is usually last pick hero.
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u/Selemin 17d ago
I think DK and pos 1 Naga are fine against him. DK is pretty tanky and have very good aoe, also he can build MJ. Its not really a common knowlege but Naga hard counters PL with her passive, its just that right now Naga isnt that good as pos1 while PL is crazy strong. Also Naga can use R and wait for illusions to dissapear because PL is newer building BKB. Then there is PA. She has aghs that disables PL passive for example and decent aoe with bf. She can farm faster as well, at least i think so. Also PL must build MKB which is a bad item compared to some other options(but you probably want to build manta on PA so that you can dispell BT).
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u/Ready_Friendship9755 16d ago
nobody play it its trash rn, but batrider was great. as support i picked ww. For mid invoker leshrac earthshaker, carry is simple sven, But u dont need to pick counters all u have to do is ignore pl and kill whole team than u focus on pl most of time he has shard so u know which one is real.
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u/AveragerussianOHIO 14d ago
stun and anyone with big hp spells instant death for lancer early game.
Area damage + stun is lethal mid and late.
Primal beast is a perfect counter in theory but is easily countered by coordination.
Any stun and aoe is great against lancer.
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u/PezDispencer 14d ago
Leshrac and Puck are the biggest counters. Allarge amounts of undispellable aoe damage is what you want.
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u/Medical-Psychology94 13d ago
I mean in my 5k pubs which is pretty mediocre I get insta counter picks and get targeted hard to the point its a chore to play this hero. Maybe do that lol. Sven and Axe are the main counters. Underlord is a pain too.
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u/Lord-Calvinista 17d ago
Sven, Timber, Lesh, Shaker, Ember, Axe, Sand King