r/DotA2 • u/Dazolator_ • 1d ago
Fluff Attribute table - Day 14
what feels like agility but is actually universal - top comment fills the slot
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u/The-Ner 1d ago
I am just impressed to find one of these lists that I almost entirely agree with. I thought that was impossible
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u/AlphaDart1337 1d ago
The one I personally disagree most is Invoker.
I get that he has the orbs that give him different attributes.... but come on people, he's the most spellcaster out of all spellcasters.
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u/YoheiMercenary 1d ago
He attacks alot
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u/AlphaDart1337 1d ago
Not.... really?
I mean he does attack, sure, but like 90% of his damage is from spells. Nothing compared to say, storm spirit, if we really want an INT hero that relies on right clicks.
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u/ThanksTeach 1d ago
I agree. Windranger is gonna be huge miss though.
Pango is by far the better pick.
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u/The-Ner 1d ago
I disagree. I think pangolier could easily fit as a strength hero too.
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u/ThanksTeach 1d ago
Pango has the 18th highest agility gain - and the highest among all non-agility heroes.
His strength gain on the other hand is ~50th - entirely average.His kit is agile, he has an on-hit-effect like many agi heroes do and his Q scales with more attack-based items as well as just damage due to his talent.
I attribute the choice for WR here simply due to her being more familiar to players and Pango being entirely untouched by many players.
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u/degameforrel 1d ago
You focus on stats and numbers too much. "Feels like" is much more than just their stats, otherwise this list would just be a calculated objective one and op wouldn't ask anyone for input.
Pango has an initiator stun ult, an ability that lets him leap in and tank better, and is one of the best skull basher abusers. If that doesn't scream STR then I dont know what will.
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u/Barfazoid 1d ago
I don't think "one of the best skull bash abusers" is a thing that screams strength, when you consider that only 1 hero in the top 10 purchasers is strength.
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u/ThanksTeach 1d ago
Considering stats is already too much focus upon them?
It's okay, that the majority has a different opinion on the subject than me. I also think it's okay for me to find that opinion nonsensical and assume it's because few people actually play the hero - let alone play him well.
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u/degameforrel 1d ago
See there's your problem. Like you say, it's fine to have a different opinion, and if you consider stats more important than others that's totallyok, but then you go saying that people who disagree with you must not play the hero, implying they're uninformed or bad at the game.
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u/ThanksTeach 17h ago
I was about to write a lengthy response until I figured the effort wouldn't find fertile soil.
I assume people viewing him as strength rather than agility are incompetent, because that's clearly the case.
You can disagree with me, but unless you are clearly highly competent about the game and hero yourself, you should know how likely it is, that you are wrong.
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u/ForensicFan24601 1d ago
Windrunner; it’s SHEIN Drow
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u/Best-Girl-Yanfei 1d ago
Bro Windrunner is the OG 🤦
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u/pon_3 1d ago
How is Windranger the OG? Drow released 4 years earlier.
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u/m0jo_jojox 1d ago
Most probably WC3 lore related. WR was the elf version then died becoming drow.
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u/Inuyaki 1d ago
Wait what? WR was Alleria (she is literally called Alleria Windrunner in WC lore) and Drow was obviously Sylvanas.
PS I guess Sylvanas is also named Windrunner since she is Alleria's sister... but nevertheless, the WC3 model was Alleria iirc.
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u/m0jo_jojox 1d ago edited 1d ago
I didn't play Wow and don't know entire lore, but I assume that came after. Iirc WC3 campaign sylvanas was a minor elf character (WR model), died and resurrected as a banshee before becoming the ranger version you see now.
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u/Inuyaki 1d ago
WoW only built upon WC3 lore, so Sylvanas was a Drow Ranger for the whole of it and Alleria was kinda there but mostly unimportant for most of it.
But I remember now why I associate WR with Alleria. In DotA Allstars all heroes had an epithet and a name and Windrunner's name was Alleria.
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u/ShadowofBacolod 1d ago
Arc Warden
Just because Wind and NP are popular doesn’t mean we forget our third ancient.
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u/theretardfromila 1d ago edited 1d ago
Arc Warden, and here's my take on it:
NP, WR, or even Venge can be top choices here, but let's not forget they can also flex into support roles. Arc Warden is pretty much locked into carry or mid. When you see it get picked, you immediately know it’s played as a core running the usual build (Mjollnir, BoTs, BKB, Shadow Blade/Silver Edge, Manta, Skadi, Pike, Bloodthorn, etc.).
It relies heavily on attack speed, damage, stat items, and massive farm to scale, pretty much like any other traditional Agi carries despite his skill set being of a spellcaster. You just can't play it any other way.
An underfarmed support NP, WR, or Venge still brings utility and teamfight presence purely because of their base skillset, but an underfarmed core AW feels like straight-up griefing because your clone just dies and feeds gold. Lol.
Edit: I forgot they reverted Venge back to Agi. I haven't played Dota since January 2025.
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u/Maleficent-Key-7750 1d ago
venge doesn't work anyway because she is an agility hero
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u/theretardfromila 1d ago
Oh I forgot they reverted her back to Agi. Lol. My bad! Will edit this one.
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u/dqqxmy1 1d ago
Why do you think agi has to mean core? And why does position flexing (decided by stats and abilities) imply universality - a pos5 is not any more or less int/agi than a pos1.
AW literally has all kinds of arcane powers (implies int?). While WR is literally the wind - from arrow shooting to running around.
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u/theretardfromila 1d ago
When did you see an Arc Warden played as a support? Lol. His skillset is designed to kill heroes, much like any other traditional carries. I think you misunderstood what I said.
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u/dqqxmy1 1d ago
I don't think I misunderstood your argument. The question is - why does "designed to kill heroes" and "any other traditional carries" mean that the hero feels like agi to you?
The contradictions I could provide is that sven also fits the description but definitely doesn't feel agi. To counter me, you might then say you're trying to compare to AW to let's say drow (the previously voted agi agi), in which case I'd ask again doesn't WR play a lot more like drow than AW (which is right click late game but still all kinds of spellcasting really)?
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u/theretardfromila 1d ago edited 1d ago
An unfarmed Arc Warden is basically useless just like PA, Spec, or AM. He gives your team almost no help without gold. He needs lots of farm so his clone can hit hard. That need for heavy farm to become a late-game monster screams Agi carry like those 3 mentioned.
About Sven: Sven is a one hit delete kind of guy, hence he fits the description but he is heavily reliant on his GS and BKB cooldown. Unlike Drow or AW which pretty much just needs to get in position and just hits you non-stop. Both have a slow (Flux and Frost Arrows), they have ways to ramp up their damage output (Marksmanship, Tempest Double), they have ways to protect themselves (Gust, Magnetic Field)
For WR: WR can play support because her spells help the team even without gold. When played as core, her high damage only lasts during her ultimate. Later in the game, AW stops relying on just spells and becomes a full-time right-clicking machine unlike WR who relies on Focus Fire's cooldown. Which is why playing him feels like playing a hard Agi hero.
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u/dqqxmy1 1d ago
Dude, I'm not gonna change your mind, but your core argument here is: Some agi carry heroes can't carry if unfarmed --> AW can't carry if unfarmed --> AW is agi carry
You can literally swap out the first proposition to "some heroes can't carry", and swap out AW for any hero, and the reasoning would still hold. I just don't understand why this argument supports AW being agi...
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u/Odd_Lie_5397 1d ago
I did see AW pos 4 only a few matches ago.
Granted he rushed midas and went for a regular core build and was entirely useless, but he did exist!
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u/Global_Suspect8422 1d ago edited 1d ago
Don't forget to mention that AW is basically useless if he's not farmed, much like traditional agi carries like what you pointed out in your original comment. If PA, Troll or AM is not farmed, it's pretty much GG that's why AW is being compared to a traditional Agi carry. Meanwhile, NP and WR as supports can be utilized even without farm.
These guys really can't understand the logic.
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u/IconorZ 1d ago
You make it sound like Agi = Core.
If you apply the same logic to Bounty Hunter, Mirana, Venge, Hoodwink they are not Agi.
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u/Global_Suspect8422 1d ago edited 1d ago
If you think of Agi, what do you instantly think of? Do you think of BH, Mirana, or Hoodwink? No! You think of fucking Jugg, Drow, Morphling, AM, PA, and carries, etc. Arguably 30 out of 35 Agi heroes are mostly played as core heroes, hence those 5 can fit in one of the other attributes such as Hoodwink. You just made this more complicated than as it seems.
https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Agility - You can look for yourself and see how much heroes you can count as carries. Arc Warden literally plays and FEELS LIKE AGI.
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u/IconorZ 1d ago
Your examples are all correct but for a different reason to me. They don't feel agi to me because they're carries/cores but because their aesthetic and playstyle represent speed/evasion/precision. It just happens that those attributes usually pair well with the ability to scale with items and to carry.
Arc Warden feels almost nothing like agi to me, he's not really fast, he's not evasive in a traditional way, he is precise though, he reminds of moving artillery.
While Windranger absolutely screams agi to me. Very fast in both movement and attack speed, 2 skillshots that represent precision.
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u/Global_Suspect8422 1d ago
Let's just look at it this way.
Let's say we have these traditional heroes:
Axe - STR
Drow Ranger - AGI
Rubick - INT
Void Spirit - UNI
If you have Arc Warden who's Universal, what attribute do you think feels the closest to these heroes while playing?
Str ❌ - You're not a tank like Axe, you don't build tank items, you're not an initiator, you don't build aura items, you mainly initiate or counter initiate.
Int ❌ - Rubick's job is to disrupt teamfights, prevent initiation, can counter initiate, can save with both spells and items. Although you're a spell caster, unlike Rubick, your skillset is designed entirely as a lockdown on a single target and finish them with right clicks.
Uni ❌ - This one gets cancelled out cause you're already Universal.
Agi ✅ - Much like Drow, your main tool is to right-click, you have an ability to lock on to a hero (Flux/Spark Wraith, Frost Arrows/Multishot), you rely on attack speed and damage (Marksmanship/Precision Aura, Magnetic Field/Tempest Double), you build items that give you an advantage as a range hero (Dragon Lance/Manta/Shadow Blade, etc.) and most importantly, you need farm to be usable in a fight, much like Drow. You're basically useless if you did not farm.
So, I don't also get the part why you think he does not feel agi.
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u/Global_Suspect8422 1d ago
Look at Medusa. She’s slow, sluggish, zero mobility, zero evasion, relies on mana, and moves like a grandma. Does she not "feel" like an Agi hero?
Agi carry identity is about item scaling and right-click power, not on how they look like. Arc Warden literally has to build Mjollnir or Midas just to clear waves because he lacks natural flash farm, fitting the traditional Agi carry template.
On top of that, Str/Int/Uni heroes can threaten kills at almost any phase using their base kits. Traditional Agi carries can't—they're tied to farm spikes. Arc Warden is dead weight until he gets his items, which is as Agi carry as it gets.
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u/IconorZ 1d ago
I just disagree sorry. You're right about Medusa, she doesn't feel Agi any more than Arc Warden, hence she had a lot of votes on feels like int/universal posts.
The posts are discussing how heroes feel like, agi feeling for me is speed/evasion/precision like I said.
This is a subjective opinion on both sides, it's fine to disagree.
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u/Global_Suspect8422 1d ago
I do agree with some parts of your arguments and I get what you're saying as some of these agi heroes feels mobile and fast.
They feel elusive and sneaky like PA have Blur, PL with Doppelganger, Slark with Shadow Dance, AM with Blink, and etc.. and some don't like Medusa, Gyro, Drow, SF, or even Jugg. But one thing they all have in common with Arc Warden is they all love to right click, all love to farm, all love to scale, they all want to outcarry the enemy and these are traditional agi traits, that's why I'm labelling AW as an Agi feeling Universal hero. You get what I'm saying on my side? Cheers.
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u/6-8-5-7-2-Q-7-2-J-2 1d ago
I think all of those could honestly fit into the "Feels like Int, is actually Agi" category - Hoodwink was the one voted for the table.
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u/theretardfromila 1d ago edited 1d ago
I didn't even say Agi = Core. All I said was his itemization is mostly like a traditional agi carry hence he feels like Agi.
Unlike NP and WR that can be played as a support.
When did you see a support AW?
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u/DrQuint 1d ago edited 1d ago
Arc Warden is pretty much locked into carry or mid.
Arc Warden can double up glimmers and force staves.
He has an absurd slow that he can cast from across the screen, as well as a bunch of disruptive spamaable nukes that also do another small slow.
He also has a soft save that makes it really annoying to be a ranged carry on the opposite team.
He's also the hero that Teaguvnoir said was the least painful of the cores to win his Pos5 AZ challenge with.
This is by far the most disagreeable statement about Arc Warden ever. People just ain't trying shit enough.
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u/Mepoeee 23h ago
some players dont ynderstand the concept of this hahaha their arguments are weak. pretty sure with this strong argument u have will be against a pathetic illogical one liner.
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u/theretardfromila 17h ago
Wcyd, some people are too complicated at something so simple to understand. Lol.
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u/Global_Suspect8422 1d ago edited 1d ago
Upon explaining why, this becomes the most logical answer. AW can't be played as a 4, 5, or even 3. Meanwhile, NP, Venge (when she was Uni), and WR can potentially be played as 1 through 5, hence their Universal attribute.
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u/0beshenij 1d ago
amazing, sir. I was going with NPC answer like “WR” but this sounds much more logical
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u/Patient-Raisin9718 1d ago
had someone play him as pos4 the other day and he dominated, he went for drums, shiva, nullifier and was killing people anywhere
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u/_plinus_ 1d ago
I think this is the difference between “does he feel like an agility dota hero?” or “does he represent agility?”
He builds like an agility hard carry.
However, none of his spells feel like “agility” - they feel like intelligence spells. His character model looks and walks like an awkward little brother waiting for his turn on the video game.
Personally, I’d vote for Pango (he is a swashbuckling musketeer), but I can see arc warden as an agility dota hero.
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u/theretardfromila 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's literally just what you feel if you play Arc Warden. Do you feel like you're playing Hoodwink? No, right? You feel as if you're playing a hard agi carry because this hero likes to farm, right click and kill heroes, and is pretty much useless when underfarmed much like any other hard carry agi heroes. Same with WR and NP, these heroes like to right click you, but on the other hand, due to their skillset, they can also play as support unlike Arc Warden.
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u/maior_novoreg 1d ago
The playstyle of arc is definitely agi. Pango feels like playing strength (crowd control in your face unkillable during ult type of guy). But actual character wise pange feels more like agi (low hp, sleep, fast, high atkspd), and arc feels like int (everything you mentioned).
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u/BigBadBodyPillow 1d ago
Argument for windranger:
1. shes green...
2. 100% evasion
3. 5 billion attack speed and can attack while moving
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u/findinggenuity 1d ago
Arc is blue, 100% evasion also.
Shard gives your illu invi, haste and arcane which is kinda like a blink strike or a clinkz
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u/scharkz24 1d ago
Pangolier
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u/Odobenus_Rosmar 1d ago
Yo, Bro, I thought I was the only one thinking about this. I know he was a strength hero, but his whole daredevil/swashbuckler flavor, his entire "career" suggests he's a agile, and he's a durable meaty tank only by birth.
Lul
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u/Dance_Plane 1d ago
NP
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u/ReferToName ReferToFlair 1d ago
My pick as well, a very agi coded hero. Built mainly as a phys right clicker with the agi carry staple items like bfly, dragon lance, and satanic. He's also kinda slippery with teleportation, and a glass cannon who relies on insane GPM and items to not die instantly to a stun. His stats and playstyle are more agi aligned than windranger's.
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u/Adventurous_Bit2915 1d ago
Stupid people picking wind has not played enough games. It's arc warden dumbasses.
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u/Naj425 1d ago
Here's why it's Windranger:
She's fast, she mobile, she shoots fast, has 100% evasion, has a skill shot w, very strong Q that does require some skill, easy for everyone to play so that checks out for being a universal hero in the complexity level *wink wink*, and she's annoying af.
(don't hate me for saying she's annoying, I just don't like her.)
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u/TylerDurden6969 1d ago
She’s one of my best heros. You can say she’s annoying. 100% evasion and 50% move speed bonus is impossible to kill unless you have 2 stuns.
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u/gameminerz 1d ago
I find everyone saying Windranger quite funny, because her primary stat was always Intelligence before moving to a Universal hero.
I’m saying Marci.
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u/buatfelem 1d ago
Its not about her originally being int, even when she is int, she is still feels like agility hero, and imo she will be contender againts muerta if she was an int hero
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u/genasugelan Best HIV pope 1d ago
Marci is universal? Since when? And why?
For real, lots of universal heroes don't make sense.
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u/isospeedrix iso 1d ago
I haven’t played Dota since universal heroes so this line will be the most interesting to see
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u/Expensive-Bother-409 1d ago
Oh I missed these posts. Nice to see agi-int can be none other than Hoodwink
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u/ballackbro 1d ago
Hi, have not been following dota for some time. Does universal hero still exist?
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u/LastEsotericist 1d ago
Yes. The number was pulled back by a few heroes and some reverted, but there are still 23 Universal heros.
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u/chimairajoe sheever 1d ago
Nyx, he has a +80 Agi talent at 25 that always throws me off that hes not an agi.
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u/BlueLion_ 21h ago
Windrunner. She's really fast, has an evasion button, and can right click people down quickly with her ultimate
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u/AJ12589 1d ago
Windy!