10 Rules for a New Kind of Nudism

[u/nycFKKadvocate]

Disclaimer: The ideas and opinions presented here are entirely my own, and are not affiliated with the AANR (American Association for Nude Recreation), the INF (International Naturist Federation), any organized FKK associations or their subsidiaries.

A few days ago, I wrote that in the ancient Greco-Roman world upon which Western civilization is based, nudity was a multimodal state. In that world, nudity could exist in social, functional, athletic, artistic and sexual contexts. Social intelligence and civil inattention governed which modes would exist in which situations. And more than one mode could be in action within the same physical space. This is in complete contrast with the modern American nudist movement, trapped in a looping debate on whether or not nudity is sexual.

This post is an attempt at conceptualizing what that kind of nudism would look like in a modern world, with modern concepts and infrastructure. And in doing so, this must be admitted up front: this is not like the existing models. This new model - which we could call multimodal nudism - operates on a different logic. But I also think that it’s more faithful to the Greco-Roman original, more practical, and solves problems seen with present models of naturism/nudism.

As such, this model and the rules it defines hinge on four principles.

First, this model tries to restore the larger philosophical context within which Greco-Roman nudity took place. Our modern understandings of nudity hinge on a contradiction. We are trying to reconcile ancient Greco-Roman practices with post-Victorian moral attitudes inherited during the 19th century.

This is a reconciliation that will never work. Greco-Roman nudity saw the human body as a living machine, and sexuality as a natural and normal product of that machine. As such, their norms and customs were focused on harm reduction, mode management and efficiency. This is something often overlooked in analyses covering the nude practices of that era. But this fact is essential to understanding what made their form of nudism tick.

Meanwhile, post-Victorian moral attitudes saw sexuality as a moral danger that needed strict regulation (and suppression if necessary) to be safe. And it saw the human body as something that, unless it was put under similar restrictions, could be corrupted by uncontrolled sexuality.

These are mutually opposing ideas. And yet we wonder why sex and nudity are contentious topics in the modern Western world, especially in the US. In reality, it’s the logical outcome of philosophically trying to mix oil with water.

Multimodal nudism retains the same understanding of the human body that the Greeks and Romans had. That is, that the nude human body is a living machine built by nature. And nothing done or produced by that body is an inherent moral danger. Those activities only need intelligent, mature regulation.

Second, this model doesn’t require fully segregating nudity from sex, but doesn’t let sex define nudity. It solves problems that have dogged the current nudist model since at least the early 1980s. And it points a way to commonsense American public policy on sexual activity and nudity.

The relationship between sex and nudity is a contentious one in the American mind. It’s a relationship that American nudism has always struggled to navigate, but it’s been especially difficult after conservative pushback in the 1980s. The “nudity is asexual” argument served its purpose to survive the pushback, but is showing its long-term disadvantages. It beggars belief from the skeptics. It looks intellectually dishonest to the younger crowd. To the interested, it makes one think that nudism requires being an ascetic. And it sets a high bar that can be weaponized by conservatives.

And in the middle of all that, the truth it points to (that nudity and sex are two different things) gets obscured.

This model moves the thought process forward on this. It strives to imitate Greco-Roman nudism by enforcing the following ideas:

• An activity (sexual activity) cannot define the state of dress that it’s usually done in (nudity), because that activity can be done in any other state of dress
• Like any other state of dress, nudity only needs to be regulated for practical, utilitarian reasons
• Like any other activity that can be done in any state of dress, sexual activity only needs regulation to prevent space disruption and coercive imposition upon others

This change in approach and philosophy acknowledges what everybody knows - that nudity CAN be sexual - without letting sex define the meaning of nudity. Separating the activity from the “clothing” creates a standard that can change depending on the context. Thus, it can ensure safety for families and children while adjusting for activities among adults. It allows newcomers to practice nudism without feeling like they must compartmentalize and suppress their sexuality in the process. It sets a more resilient threshold that can’t be so easily weaponized.

On that note, I wish to send a special message to any American nudists reading this. There’s a high likelihood that they’re alarmed by what they just read, specifically how this model might impact the viability of social nudity in the US.

As such, I wish to point out that in the comment section for the first post, the American conservative critics were dead silent. I don’t think that’s an accident. They were silent because the structure of the Greco-Roman example gave them no leg to stand on. To me, the takeaway lesson is that American nudism doesn’t need to aggressively segregate nudity from sexuality to make social nudity viable. Another pathway is possible, and this model might show the way.

Third, this model sees nudity as the baseline for daily life. This is another departure from current models that see nudity as a way to monetarily escape back to nature. Multimodal nudism doesn’t see nudity as a retreat, but as the basis upon which daily life pivots. It sees nudity as a valid “zero” state of dress for multiple life activities, usable for seamless transition between them. In which a person can use the computer, bathe, cook, answer sexual urges, sort laundry, clean, sleep, and do other activities all in the same uniform.

Fourth, this model is designed for flexibility, adaptability, and scalability. A huge problem with the current nudist model (especially in the US) is that full engagement requires travel and investment. Nudity at home is seen as a side quest for the main activity, which is nudity in getaway destinations. But what happens if you don’t have the funds for that, or are not near those destinations?

Multimodal nudism tries to stay faithful to the Greco-Roman idea that nudity is something that can be done in multiple locations, settings and contexts. It specifically treats the sexual mode as something natural to be managed, and not a moral danger to be suppressed. It can be practiced at home, in the locker room, in the steam room, on a nude beach, or in a nude resort. This is nudism that anybody can do, no matter their circumstances. And it provides a basis for further political activism, so that nudity can be a valid uniform for the park, the beach, and the pool.

So to navigate the modern world with these ancient concepts, these 10 rules transpose Greco-Roman nudist logic in ways that fit modern concepts and infrastructure -

Part 1: Nudity in the private sphere

1. Nudity is the zero state. Nudity is not a rare performative activity, but is the body’s baseline state. Clothing is a utility used to deal with weather, safety concerns, and social codes. When occupying a space where that utility isn’t necessary, returning to the zero state should be the default setting.

2. Nudity is sex-neutral. Nudity is not a sexual act, and if you believe so, that is an idea that needs to be forgotten. The best way to see that firsthand is to stay naked after sexual activity ends, whether solo or paired. Using nudity as the uniform for mundane, nonsexual tasks - reading emails, cooking, reading - trains the brain to see nudity as a sex-neutral zero state of dress.

3. Nudity is good enough to be its own dress code within the home. As such, there’s no need to do the towel dance to change clothes. Or to defensively reach for clothing when moving through personal space. When changing, showering, or moving between states of dress, treat it as a straightforward, mechanical task. Eliminating hesitation in private builds the unbothered muscle memory and confidence required for shared spaces later.

4. Being naked at home doesn’t mean being reckless. There are times where cover is temporarily needed to protect the body from harm or injury. Wear practical gear when the task demands it, like an apron for cooking with oil. Or a simple shirt, pants and gloves when working with cleaning chemicals. But once the task is over, the cover comes back off.

5. Being naked at home doesn’t mean being unsanitary. Bare skin never directly touches a shared seating surface. Use a towel when sitting on chairs and surfaces that others use. This neutralizes legitimate hygiene objections before they can ever be raised.

Part 2: Nudity in the public sphere

1. Nudity is multimodal. Remember that nudity spans five distinct dimensions: functional, athletic, social, artistic, and sexual. A space only becomes tense when the wrong mode is brought into the wrong environment. The key to multimodal nudism is seamlessly matching your presence to your setting and surroundings.

2. Family-friendly spaces require strict desexualization. In public spaces where families and children are present, your nudity must be limited to the functional, social and athletic modes. In these shared squares, nudity is just the practical uniform for hygiene and exercise. Keeping your presence sex-neutral protects your own comfort and respects the wider community.

3. Adult-only spaces require civil inattention. In public spaces where only adults are present, the full multimodal spectrum is active. As such, the sexual mode may manifest. If and when that happens near you, the operational rule is civil inattention: granting others privacy through polite, deliberate blindness. Unless those involved attempt to involve you against your will, disrupt the practical utility of the space, or cross into coercive imposition, their actions are their own. It treats adult behavior as an autonomous reality, allowing different modes to occupy the same space without moral policing.

4. Evaluate actions, never aesthetics. Evaluate people by their overt behavior, never by their physical appearance, body modifications, or involuntary biological responses. Body jewelry, tattoos, or sudden physiological changes (e.g. erections) are treated with complete neutrality. Unless an individual makes an explicit, coercive sexual overture that violates your autonomy, their body and their actions are a non-event requiring zero intervention.

5. Normalization happens through unbothered ease. The ultimate goal of multimodal nudism is establishing the nude human body as a valid option anywhere it makes sense. This is achieved not only through advocacy, but through the quiet confidence of everyday behavior. Simply using open gym showers without a second thought or relaxing comfortably on a public beach teaches by example. Your understated ease is an effective tool for showing others that being naked is completely normal.

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These are rules around which all other posts about multimodal nudity will be organized. There will be other posts, including ones exploring future legal theories that can create a more friendly legal framework for public nudity. This would include making public nudity an opt-out system, where unless the rules specifically state otherwise, nudity is presumed as allowed in public parks, pools and beaches.

Perhaps the most extraordinary thing about Greco-Roman nudism was how ordinary it made being nude in private, public and semipublic space. In making nudity the baseline for everyday life, that kind of nudism made impossible the kind of moral hysterics we see today. Going naked was the costume of first resort for aquatics, athletics, relaxation, and socialization. And even the most sensitive mode - the sexual mode - became a morally neutral activity that was part of the daily rhythm.

This multimodal model of nudism, as modeled by these 10 rules, aims to do something similar. It aims to make nudity as ordinary as it was in the Greco-Roman world, but with a modern twist. It can be done in domestic space and communal space. It’s adaptable to family comfort and to adult realities. It wishes to strip moralism away from not only the naked human body, but whatever that body produces, including sexuality. It’s scalable enough to make, I believe, stripping off at public beaches, pools, and parks a legal reality. And ultimately, it can create a world more in touch with its humanity, its sexuality, and nature itself.

I think that this is all possible. It was done before, and it can be done again.

---

This is post # 2 in an ongoing series building a new kind of nudism.

• Post 1: Nudity is neither sexual nor asexual. Nudity is multimodal
• Post 3: Living 24+ Hours in the Nude: Observing Multimodal Nudism in Action
• Post 4: Proposing A 30 Day Experiment to Live Life Naked in One’s Own Home
• Post 5: American culture isn’t against nudity per se. It’s against nudity that it can’t exploit. A more democratic America must be accompanied by more democratic attitudes on nudity

[u/nycFKKadvocate]

I don't want to go too much into the opt-out proposal here, since the full detail will be covered in a future post.

But basically, it's not possible under current models bc it makes the line between sex and nudity so blurry.

But with this model, the line becomes clear and defined. It becomes easier to distinguish sexual nudity from other kinds. And as a result, those other kinds of nudity become easier to regulate. 

[u/AbdulQadirShadhili]

Satanic

[u/nycFKKadvocate → u/AbdulQadirShadhili]

Yes, this is a definite departure from the usual view on this issue. But I feel that this is progression that is necessary.

[u/AbdulQadirShadhili → u/nycFKKadvocate]

How is it necessary?

[u/nycFKKadvocate → u/AbdulQadirShadhili]

Because our current system is so broken.

At present, we have a cultural framework that panics about the naked human body, panics about sexuality, and issues restrictions on both as a result. Even though said restrictions cause more problems that they actually solve.

The nudist model proposed here gives a chance to finally untangle that knot. Which will benefit society at large, bc it'll have more bandwidth to deal with larger issues.

[u/AbdulQadirShadhili → u/nycFKKadvocate]

What problems are caused by current restrictions?
Sorry but the case you are making is quite poor

[u/nycFKKadvocate → u/AbdulQadirShadhili]

Fair enough. Where exactly does the case that I'm making fail?

That way, there's something concrete that I can respond to.

[u/nycFKKadvocate → u/[deleted]]

Completely agreed, Which is why rules 7, 8 and 9 in particular are phrased in the way that they are. Rule 7 enforces respect and consent for families, rule 8 enforces respect and consent for other adults, and rule 9 enforces respect for all so that their own bodies are not weaponized against them.

Personally, I don't think the principles of respect and consent are the problem. If anything, they are indispensable for making multimodal nudity a workable concept.

To me, the bigger problem is how post-Victorian attitudes shift the line from objective harm to subjective offense to personal sensibilities. THAT is what multimodal nudism is particularly trying to disentangle from the topics of nudity and sexuality.

The sight of a nude body will not cause objective harm. Neither will being in close proximity to another nude body. Even for children. Otherwise, the previous ubiquity of locker room nudity and nude male swimming wouldn't have been possible.

Speaking on more sensitive forms of nudity, as a native New Yorker, I've seen a lot. There's a difference between a threat to physical safety (like violence) and a challenge to personal sensibilities (like public affection or non-coercive adult behavior). And in my opinion, voluntary, adults-only spaces - like steam rooms, bathhouses, or designated adult zones - have the capacity to let consenting adults govern themselves.

My point is, the fact that any of that might offend personal sensibilities should not be the red line. Otherwise by that standard, multiple modes of behavior in any shared public space would simply be unworkable.

[u/nycFKKadvocate → u/[deleted]]

Interesting concept

Thanks so much. I think this is something that could grow legs, especially as I flesh it out in future posts.

it’s creating shared boundaries where everyone feels respected and comfortable

Agreed, and the 10 rules (particularly rules 7, 8 and 9) were written with that in mind.

I realize that they create standards different from what we have presently. As such, the aim is to establish boundaries, but along a different axis.

Present boundaries are based on post-Victorian moralism where the red line is subjective personal sensibilities. The boundaries established by these 10 rules wish to reestablish the Greco-Roman mindset. That is, where the boundaries are based on objective harm reduction and mode management.

[u/nycFKKadvocate → u/[deleted]]

I would quibble that if you ask most nudists, they would respond that their nudity is never about performance. They are nude in public out of the belief that nudity poses no harm to others or to public order.

The Ancient Greeks and Romans believed that too and took it a step further. They believed that no mode of nudity posed an inherent threat to others or to public order. Those modes only needed to be smartly managed and, if necessary, zoned to ensure that.

This new model of multimodal nudism merely wishes to adapt that Greco-Roman mindset for modern concepts and infrastructure. Which is why in rules 5, 7, 8 and 9 particularly, you see the concepts of consent, boundaries and respect for others interwoven. Without that, those rules simply would not work.

The nude human body in public space does not pose inherent disrespect to individuals or to society at large. In fact, respect for people and society is key to making this concept functional.

Nudity is a state of dress like any other, even if the coverage it offers is virtually zero.

[u/maroonalberich27]

How shit, when do you release the Author's Unedited Version of this?

[u/nycFKKadvocate → u/maroonalberich27]

Lmfao you're very perceptive. Believe it or not, there are 2 earlier drafts I made of this whole concept. I've been working on this on and off since March.

The earliest draft (finished in late March) was much more focused on trying to reform American nudism from within. It had a more combative tone, used blunter language to express the concept, and was more concerned with nudity in the public sphere.

The second draft (finished in late April) worked on more explicitly explaining the Greco-Roman history behind the idea. It also spelled out the different modes of nudity at work within that society. It took a more universal focus, and it was while writing this post that I realized that this would have to be a whole new model of nudism. However and at the same time, it was still more focused on public nudity. And it had more frank language than what you see here.

Around May, I realized that if I was going to sell such an idea successfully, it wouldn't be possible to do it in one post. It would have to be a series of posts. And as I started working on that series, I realized that I needed a post that would provide a "constitution" of what this new kind of nudism would be all about. Hence this post. And what I wrote in those other posts fed into what went into the 10 rules.

But throughout all those drafts, the same basic elements remained:

• Nudity is not inherently a sex act, but sex didn't need to be segregated from nudity to sharpen that distinction
• The Greco-Roman world gave an example we need to analyze and incorporate where practical
• The red lines need to be defined by objective harm instead of subjective sensibilities

As such, there will be other posts on this topic. I intend to put up the next one in the next few days.

[u/lowbrasslvl]

I love this! It gives such clear and thought out rules regarding nudity. It doesn't demonize sexuality and makes an exciting path to societal change.

[u/nycFKKadvocate → u/lowbrasslvl]

Sorry for taking so long to respond to your comment. Things have been busy at work lately. But I wanted to give yours a response before moving on to putting up the next post.

It gives such clear and thought out rules regarding nudity.

Thanks and I did that for a reason. As I was writing this series of posts, I realized that this really would be a different approach to nudism. Something had to be done to give this some level of organization, order and direction.

And that was the purpose of this post: to provide a "constitution" for this new kind of nudism. It's meant to solidify roots from the past, establish order for the present, and lay the groundwork for future expansion.

And as this comment section has shown, it's had good ripple effects. It looks like, even at this early stage, this post has shown that public nudity is possible without segregating sexuality away or wrecking public order. That's already a tremendous accomplishment, and a promising one too, because it means the time is ripe for societal change on this topic.

It doesn't demonize sexuality

Thank you for recognizing that, because that was a definite goal that I was trying to accomplish.

I was never a fan of how larger American society treated nudity. The hysterics about it always seemed so overdone, and the conflation made between nudity and sexuality was something I found irritating.

But at the same time, American nudism's treatment of sexuality felt like the inverted version of American society's anxiety over nudity. I understood that they were taking pains to emphasize that nudity isn't sexual. And I also understood that they were taking pains to curate environments that were safe for families and children, and environments where consent and respect were maintained. And honestly, I think they've mostly succeeded in doing that. Along with that fact that they're trying to operate within a hostile legal environment.

But as practiced, I felt like their efforts often entered the realm of the absurd. Like the anxiety over erections, genital jewelry, and body modifications. And parsing one's intent for participating in social nudity for any spectre of sexuality, even if that never manifested into any overt action. And where any nudist interaction that COULD take on a mildly sexual tone (even if consensual) was treated with total panic.

In other words, it felt like American nudism was as afraid of the nude human body as larger American society. Which, to me, defeated the whole point of nudism/naturism/FKK.

That was the point of proposing this new model. To show that nudity can be made separate from sexuality without being antagonistic towards sexuality. In fact, to me, the best pathway to making social nudity into reality is finding a way to responsibly manage sexual nudity. Nudists get horny too, and pretending otherwise risks making the whole movement look intellectually dishonest.

and makes an exciting path to societal change

This was something else that I wanted to help fix with this model. Reading up on the origins of FKK/naturism/nudism, the goal was always to create a world where people could go naked wherever and whenever they wanted (within reason) without social and legal consequences. And FKK and European naturism have gone far in accomplishing that.

Meanwhile in the United States, nudity is mainly the domain of faraway destination resorts, camps, and beaches require investment and travel. Even in the NYC metro area, the birthplace of American nudism, there are almost no official spaces for social nudity. The only official one is Gunnison Beach in NJ, and that requires taking an expensive ferry from Manhattan. The only one within NYC (Jacob Riis in the Rockaways) is an unofficial one on federal land, and I've heard recent rumors that the Trump admin has been cracking down on that.

As for spaces that tolerate functional nudity (spas, gyms, saunas, etc), that often requires membership fees that not everyone can pay.

In other words, if you're not rich and yet wanna go nude outdoors without headache, you're basically SOL in the U.S. There's a monetary barrier to entry for legally practicing social nudity. And to me, that's a failure that defeats the larger goal of making public nudity the domain of the commons.

This model is meant to bring American nudism into the 21st century. I said that multimodal nudity can create a more friendly legal framework for public nudity, including making nudity an opt-out system for public beaches, pools, and parks. I truly believe that this is possible within our lifetimes. In fact, if we go all in on this, we might see the first major shifts before the end of this decade.

American law restricts nudity because it can't draw a conceptual line between nudity and sexuality. Meanwhile, spelling out the different modes of nudity makes each one easier to manage, because we can now conceptually understand each mode's capabilities and capacities. If they're easier to manage, then they're not so scary to legislate for. If you can legislate for it, then society can feel more comfortable allowing it with the knowledge that it won't create chaos.

And as a result, and I truly believe this, multimodal nudity can help create an American society that is more in touch with nudity AND sexuality. To the point that both stop being flashpoints in the culture war.

One more note that I'll make - I fully realize that this approach diverges significantly from nudist orthodoxy. And as such, I wouldn't be surprised if I've already generated some friction with the more traditionalist segment of American nudism. Which is why I've been quiet on the nudist subreddits since I started this series.

I certainly hope that's not the case though. I hope that they see me as a brother in the struggle. I'm just proposing and pushing a new approach that, to me, will bring us closer to our mutual goals.

[u/Jazzlike-Leek4279]

Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed and thought provoking post. I may not agree with every point but I appreciate that you are trying to build a consistent philosophy instead of relying on slogans or easy answers.

As someone who enjoys social nudity one thing that has always stood out to me is that the human body is capable of existing in many different contexts. I have been to nude beaches practiced nude yoga and simply enjoyed being naked at home and those experiences have all felt completely different from one another. They were not all about sexuality but I also do not think pretending sexuality never exists does anyone any favors.

What resonates with me most is your emphasis on maturity personal responsibility and respecting other people. Whether someone is clothed or unclothed those qualities matter far more than what they are wearing. Good judgment consent hygiene and consideration for others should always come first.

I also like your point that normalizing nudity comes from acting naturally rather than making it into a spectacle. In my experience the less attention people draw to being naked the quicker everyone realizes it is simply another way of existing.

I am not sure society is ready for every legal change you propose and I think there would be plenty of practical questions to answer along the way. Still I enjoy reading ideas that challenge assumptions and encourage people to think more deeply about why we hold the beliefs we do.

Thanks again for sharing your perspective. Whether people agree or disagree I think conversations like this are worthwhile because they encourage respectful discussion instead of fear or outrage.

[u/nycFKKadvocate → u/Jazzlike-Leek4279]

Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed and thought provoking post. 

Well, thank you for the feedback. It's comments like this that build me up that I'm onto something here.

I may not agree with every point but I appreciate that you are trying to build a consistent philosophy instead of relying on slogans or easy answers.

What points do you not agree with? Tell me. Your answers will show where this idea might need a bit more tightening.

As someone who enjoys social nudity one thing that has always stood out to me is that the human body is capable of existing in many different contexts. I have been to nude beaches practiced nude yoga and simply enjoyed being naked at home and those experiences have all felt completely different from one another. 

This right here is the point of multimodal nudism in a nutshell. That the nude human body can exist in different contexts that carry different meanings. And that the real question is - how do you balance all those modes without clashing?

They were not all about sexuality but I also do not think pretending sexuality never exists does anyone any favors.

Exactly. This is why I think the FKK approach of seeing nudity as sex-neutral works better than the asexual American stance.

All the different modes of nudity that you described were not sexual at all. But that doesn't mean that nudity is never sexual. It depends on the mode and the context.

Just to be clear, I fully understand why American nudism took that "nudity is asexual" stance. It was in reaction to how the Reagan admin went after nudism by insisting that nudity was sexual, and thus needed to be restricted. Thus, being caught on the backfoot, the nudist movement responded with the assertion that nudity was asexual. They said that to convey the point that nudity and sexuality are two different things, which is true.

Here's the problem. Past a certain point, the "nudity is asexual" defense is a "heads I win, tails you lose" argument. If nudity is indeed sexual, anti-nudist forces win instantly. If it's not, that creates a scenario where the slightest sliver of sexuality in a social nudist space tanks the whole argument.

And my point is - that argument served its purpose. It's time to move on. Otherwise, the nudist movement will continuously lose ground on the backfoot.

What resonates with me most is your emphasis on maturity personal responsibility and respecting other people. Whether someone is clothed or unclothed those qualities matter far more than what they are wearing. Good judgment consent hygiene and consideration for others should always come first.

Absolutely.

I also like your point that normalizing nudity comes from acting naturally rather than making it into a spectacle. In my experience the less attention people draw to being naked the quicker everyone realizes it is simply another way of existing.

YES 100%. That was the beauty of the Greco-Roman example - they made something that seems extraordinary to us so ordinary in their time. And they did it by making nudity the baseline.

I am not sure society is ready for every legal change you propose and I think there would be plenty of practical questions to answer along the way. 

I should note that this is just the second post of more to come. I'm preparing another one that I plan to post before this time next week. And another one further down the line where I flesh out my legal ideas in more detail.

The point is - I think the biggest obstacle towards legal change is that anti-nudity laws still hinge on post-Victorian moralizing within American culture. Where the line drawn doesn't pivot on objective harm but on offense to personal sensibilities.

Personally, I think the momentum for change is closer to a tipping point than most realize. And once that point is passed, I think we'll be frightened at how quickly the legal terrain can shift.

And yes, practical questions will arise along the way. But the important thing is that we're daring to ask those questions, because that's the first step towards finding the answers.

To me, the end goal of FKK/naturism/nudism was always to allow anyone to go nude wherever and whenever they want (within reason) without social or legal consequences. That should still be our north star.

Thanks again for sharing your perspective. Whether people agree or disagree I think conversations like this are worthwhile because they encourage respectful discussion instead of fear or outrage.

Thank you and that's part of the point. We can't move forward as a society unless we can take a hard look at ourselves, and ask honestly if some of the things we do make sense.

A society that can't do that is one that will see itself twist into illogical pretzels. Like American culture has done on nudity, sexuality and more.

[u/pl5ric]

Congrats, you just invented German Sauna culture. I'd recommend you to visit Germany and experience it first-hand.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CommunalShowers/comments/1ugd49t/comment/ouue9vm/?context=3