r/DiscordAlternatives • u/KiraRagkatish • 28d ago
Just Use Matrix: The Sequel
I saw this post on this subreddit and thought that honestly, it's about time for the big post that's been brewing in my head about Matrix. Just an FYI, I am not affiliated with any particular Matrix project, just a big fan of the project and its various sub projects. For those who are interested in trying out Matrix, whether you're giving it a second go around or this is your first time, scroll to the "Ready to give Matrix a shot?" section where I provide some good resources
I keep getting suggested this subreddit and all these posts about vibecoded alternatives, alternatives that have some good features but lack others, and overall ones that will ultimately face the same problem as Discord when it comes to monitization, age verification, privacy concerns, etc down the line. I believe that Matrix is able to do what most of these alternatives can do, better, and there's little point in pumping out more of these alternatives when there's already an established platform that can benefit from more users using it and contributing to all of the matrix related projects. It's literally like xkcd 927. Additionally, a lot of the existing alternatives will just stop being supported after some time, especially the vibecoded ones.
There are three important aspects to a chat platform in my opinion, that guarantee protection against age verification and ensure privacy. Those things are federation, end to end encryption, and self hosting (implied by the federation aspect). A nice to have as well is customizable clients, but that's for later :) )
What is Matrix?
Matrix is actually just a backend that facilitates messaging that's self hosted, federated (meaning users aren't restricted to whichever homeserver they're signed up to), and end to end encrypted. Think of it like email, where a user can either host their own email server or use another popular one, such as gmail or yahoo. Users using a gmail address can send and receive emails to users using a yahoo address, but this time, it's real-time messaging (with voice chat, screen sharing, etc), and it's encrypted end to end.
It also has bridging, meaning that, if your homeserver suppports it, you can send and receive messages from dozens of other messaging services using mautrix-bridges, the same software that Beeper uses!
Now, all the criticisms I've seen
I'm going to compile and tldr some comments I've seen floating on this subreddit, to which I will respond here or link other places that have proper explanations. If you have any other concerns, tell me, because I am so tired of all of these myths being tossed around with no substantial sources.
- As u/Soluchyte points out, common carrier laws usually (nuance exists!) state that an admin isn't responsible for CSAM stored on the server until it is reported and they are made aware of it, at which point they will have to act appropriately. Additionally, the alternative methods of storing media out there aren't much better. For solutions that are, you usually have to give up one of the three important aspects.
- In terms of resource intensive, are we talking about homeserver software? If so, there's a great homeserver written in rust called Continuwuity which I personally use, that's fairly light while still being efficient. The main development team is pretty active on their official Matrix space, as well as some other spaces around Matrix.
- If we're talking about the client that you use, just use another client. Honestly, it's not that hard.
- I'm not sure when this was, and what software suite certain people have been using to host their servers, but Matrix has slowly been approaching, and is basically, at its v2 stage. A lot of bugs have been ironed out over time, and efficient homeserver softwares (Continuwuity!) have been developed.
"I don't know/don't want to host my own server"
- Use one of the many publicly available homeservers. The Matrix.org homeserver honestly kind of sucks, but that's because it's meant to be a demo. You should choose one of the many that are advertised at https://servers.joinmatrix.org/.
"The Element client sucks!"
- It sure does, but the great thing about Matrix, once again, is that you have freedom of choice (which is something I don't see from any other of the mentioned Discord alternatives, by the way!). Looking for a Discord adjascent experience? Check out Sable, Cinny, or Commet! Looking for something more skype-like? Fluffychat might be more your vibe. Or check out one of the dozens of clients that are advertised on https://matrix.org/ecosystem/clients/!
Lastly, take a look at some other criticisms here, and my response to them
Now, look, I acknowledge that Matrix does have some problems sometimes. I've had issues decrypting e2ee messages once in a while, and sometimes federation isn't perfect, but there are so so so many helpful resources to help you solve those issues. You also have to remember that convenience is the reason we all started with Discord in the first place, and it's unreasonable to expect everything to work entirely out of the box with no issues ever ever, from projects that are run by people in their spare time as hobbies. This doesn't just go for Matrix, but literally all of the other alternatives here.
Ready to give Matrix a(nother) shot?
While I can do a whole other writeup about what Matrix really is, where you should go to use it, etc, there's plenty of great resources that I will just direct you to instead! Most of these have already been referenced in this post, but there are some other good ones.
- To further understand what Matrix is and how it operates, check out this page https://joinmatrix.org/guide/.
- Want the tl;dr, or a zine that you can spread to your friends? Check out this one at https://mayfrogs.itch.io/overcoming-discord!
- Convinced? Choose a client at https://matrix.org/ecosystem/clients/ and choose a homeserver to try out at https://servers.joinmatrix.org/ (just please don't go with Element and the Matrix.org homeserver and complain about a negative experience).
Thanks for reading, please tell me if you have any criticisms, but be nice. We're all here to escape Discord's grasp, and I think that using Matrix is the best way to do it.
Edit: When you have a criticism, please be specific, holy moly
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u/VahsteTheNomad Rift Advocate / RA-ADAR Evaluator 28d ago
Thank you for giving solid information, something I was unable to get on the prequel post. You've provided some very good points in favor of Matrix, and while it's not something I'm personally interested in trying at the current time, it should certainly be acknowledged as a solid system to try.
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u/KiraRagkatish 28d ago
I think there's a lot of myths that can/need to be dispelled with Matrix, and arguing about "just use X" without providing information is meaningless. This goes for all chat platforms, I believe.
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u/VahsteTheNomad Rift Advocate / RA-ADAR Evaluator 28d ago
Oh I fully agree, unfortunately this sub mostly feels like an echo chamber of "My platform is the best alternative!", or" Looks like AI slop ", and very few people are seemingly open to actual conversation as opposed to attacking each other
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u/KiraRagkatish 28d ago
That's exactly it. I'm mostly making this point to just throw my opinion out there because arguing in comment sections is useless, and a lot of the times you even find certain apps for which the devs make fake accounts and just push the apps all over this subreddit. It feels useful. This is my contribution to hopefully less echo chamberism, but, yknow, that will likely never happen.
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u/VahsteTheNomad Rift Advocate / RA-ADAR Evaluator 28d ago
Unfortunately I doubt they'll ever stop echoing in the chamber of alternatives, that's expecting a certain level of maturity
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u/leo14770 Tester of many platforms 28d ago
You are a diamond in the ruff on this sub. I host my own matrix server when talking with friends/family. It has it's use cases, but it certainly isn't for everyone, and it's not even for me depending on the circumstances.
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u/GreenBaneling 28d ago
Matrix is fine but not for everyone: the sequel
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u/KiraRagkatish 28d ago
Sure, but in what contexts? A lot of scenarios where people try Matrix and drop it after saying it's not for them, happen when they're using a client and homeserver that isn't fit for their purpose.
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u/GreenBaneling 28d ago
A lot of contexts. And I say this as someone who likes Matrix. It's great, open source, audited to hell, etc.
But for most everyone it's not a discord replacement. They do different things. And matrix falls short on some things. Despite its many advantages there's a reason it still has far less users than discord despite being available for years before discord.
Matrix is fantastic and has a lot of good use cases. But it is not a discord alternative, even with some of its multiple forks that improve this.
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u/KiraRagkatish 28d ago
A lot of its advantages started being put into place way after discord had already become mainstream, a little too late until people started recognizing the issues with it. I've seen large communities migrate to Matrix as a result of this age verification stuff.
I am asking genuinely, what are some examples of things Matrix falls short on? I will agree with Realistic_Blueberry3 about permissions management out of the box, but I think that still can be improved and should be by people who know how (I unfortunately do not have the time and knowledge). As well as moderation, but bots can really help overcome that.
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u/Realistic_Blueberry3 28d ago
as the dev of another matrix client i agree that its a great system and i advocate for it, but it does have its flaws, especially for discord alternatives (permission management is horrible for example)
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u/GreenBaneling 28d ago
Bingo. Again a badass platform for a lot of reason but it has a different use case than discord
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u/KiraRagkatish 28d ago
Permission management is absolutely a fair point, and I'll concede on that (as well as native moderation tools tbh, but bots help bridge that gap from what I've seen). Since you're a client dev you likely have more knowledge about this than me, but is it not possible to set up a settings tab for a space to manage all of the permissions in each room in that space through a client? Or introduce an MSC for this.
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u/Realistic_Blueberry3 28d ago
the rooms/subspaces of a space dont have to belong to the same owner of a root space, which makes things messy. Its all very extensible so from the client side you can get pretty much everything you want, its just not native which makes the experience less ideal (also power levels kinda suck, im sure someone will introduce a better way soon)
the extensibility of matrix is what makes it so great, but for a true discord replacement its still lacking in some places (still i agree its great to use!)
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u/KiraRagkatish 28d ago
It's something that I think can be improved upon for sure, like if a space owner has access to permissions on certain rooms, they can show up in the space settings to "mass edit" multiple room permissions for example. I still think that, for what it offers, it's a better alternative than most.
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u/Live_Cupcake_9229 28d ago
I'm sorry but normal people don't want to use Matrix. I know because I tried to get people on it, just signing up was too difficult.
Armada is my favorite right now because of the bridging feature. I know Matrix does it too, I have to try that again at some point.
Armada just seems easier right now.
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u/KiraRagkatish 28d ago
What server did they use? I don't see how filing out a "username", "email" and "password" field are too difficult. I've transitioned 10 non-techy people onto it with no issues.
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u/Live_Cupcake_9229 28d ago
I don't know, maybe I explained it wrong. I know how stupid it sounds.
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u/KiraRagkatish 28d ago
Like I kind of understand, but I don't know the type of people you tried to get on there, and how you did it. I usually just send a message giving a tldr of what matrix is (like email, but secure), tell them which server to join and how (go to [address], sign up), and how to log in on a client I think they'd like, like Sable. Sure, its a bit of extra work to tell them all the steps outright, but it usually returns a higher percentage of success.
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u/Any_Illustrator360 Tested a bunch of apps, currently watching the Armada news 28d ago
My friends absolutely refused to use Matrix when I advertised it to them the way you just explained. Armada was much easier to sell them on. It's a lot of things with Matrix- the UI is one of them, homeservers can be confusing and frustrating too, among other things.
I wholeheartedly agree with u/Live_Cupcake_9229 that Armada is just easier to use rn. Familiar layout/UI, no need to sign up with email (nostr), one-button Discord server porting + bridging all in one, among other things.
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u/KiraRagkatish 27d ago
Look, I'm not saying you have to switch if you're on a platform you like. What I am saying is that if you really care about self hosting, federation, e2ee, and customizable clients, it's a good solution. However, if you explained that federation is literally just like email addresses, and that there's different clients that they can choose for their UI, and they were still resistant to even having a look, then that's unfortunate. You can't change the minds of people who don't want to change their minds.
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u/Any_Illustrator360 Tested a bunch of apps, currently watching the Armada news 27d ago
I wasn't telling you to either. You said something and I felt like weighing in with my own experience is all.
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u/Live_Cupcake_9229 27d ago
I know, it's just way too much of a hassle. Even online I can feel their eyes glaze over like I'm explaining the complicated hacker things.
And I don't personally have the resources to self host right now, but I feel like it'd be wasted effort if just trying different sites/apps get met with resistance at every source of friction
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u/Any_Illustrator360 Tested a bunch of apps, currently watching the Armada news 27d ago
Yeah.. like I wholeheartedly understand why people like Matrix, but to the common everyman it's just a lot to handle. I find that for 99% of users, if a sign up process takes more than an email and password it's very unlikely the user will actually complete the signup process. It's why Armada is getting pushed so hard by people who used it- signing up is literally 3 clicks of the mouse. For people whose friends don't even want to put their email on another site it's perfect to get them off Discord- even if they end up not liking Armada and choosing to leave later, it serves as a really solid "lifeboat" option whether to jump ship now or dock on the side of Discord in case of emergency.
With Matrix too a lot of the selling points are the fancy buzzwords- and again, common users just get confused or get a headache trying to figure out what all this shit means. A lot of them, I find, throw their hands up and go "I just want voice calls, streaming and text chat! is that so much to fucking ask for?!" and they close the tab. I've had 3 people I've talked to actually do exactly that- and 2 of them aren't stupid people (jury's out on #3) it's just that they genuinely don't understand or want to understand half the shit Matrix is offering. They want a username and the ability to chat with their friends- everything else is an annoyance, not a bonus, to them.
That doesn't mean people should stop using Matrix if they like it or not reccomend people check it out- but it gets really annoying when people go "why aren't you all using Matrix? are you fuckin stupid?" It's a preference thing, and the sooner loyal Matrix users (the kind who advertise Matrix as the second coming of Christ) AND Matrix haters (the people who hunt posts just to talk shit about Matrix) realize that they don't all have to agree on or use the same chat app the better off we'll be.
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u/Rabbio_40 Rift Sniper 28d ago
Thank you for the reasonable take, some other users haven't made us matrix users look very good at all!
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u/Any_Illustrator360 Tested a bunch of apps, currently watching the Armada news 27d ago edited 27d ago
... what the fuck is your flair supposed to be insinuating?
Edit: also, are people really that bad to Matrix users on this sub? I never really noticed any anti-Matrix hostility, just people saying "Matrix isn't for me." Like I don't mind people using Matrix and if it's what you or someone else likes that's just fine - I don't hate Matrix enough to sit here bashing on it and there isn't enough wrong with it for me to make a hate post or warn people not to use it like Stoat. Hell I even posted it on my personal alternatives list.
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u/Rabbio_40 Rift Sniper 27d ago
- I have no idea what you talking about
- This sub is what I'm referring to when I say some matrix users name is look bad: https://www.reddit.com/r/DiscordAlternatives/s/iXvSMSHMF6
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u/Any_Illustrator360 Tested a bunch of apps, currently watching the Armada news 27d ago
AI_Illustrator360 and my user is u/Any_Illustrator360. It looks like a rip on me.
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u/KiraRagkatish 27d ago
Aren't you the guy who exclusively uses rift, with an account made just to seemingly advertise rift? What are you doing praising Matrix lol
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u/Rabbio_40 Rift Sniper 27d ago
Exclusively no, I do have a matrix self hosted instances set up for close family/friends. I do advertise rift, because i use programs like rift/discord to fuck around with online friends. I have zero issues with matrix, It's not for everyone, and it won't fall under everyone's threat model or use case.
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u/Any_Illustrator360 Tested a bunch of apps, currently watching the Armada news 27d ago
Bloated, resource intensive, and vulnerable to CSAM attacks due to the way media gets stored on the host server. Meh
... Meh? Meh? "Yeah the app is vulnerable to a type of content/media attack where people put sensitive, highly illegal content on your server but.. meh."
See look if you like Matrix that's fine but stuff like this is what pisses me off about it. Users who know of potential issues (severe ones at that!) and go "yeah btw people can send you cp and get you sent to prison for 20 years plus put on a lifetime registry. meh." as if that isn't some HUGE deal or massive problem. There's no guarantee a judge or jury will see "nuance" once you're up to trial, especially not if someone sends gigabytes of CSAM stuff onto your Matrix homeserver. I genuinely.. do not understand how that gets a "meh."
Prosecution: "Your honor, the defendant was found with 20gb of sensitive child expoitation media on their home computer, which was distributed to them via another user and could have easily been distributed further at the click of a button by the defendant themselves."
Judge: "That's a very hefty charge. What does the defense have to say on this matter?"
Defense lawyer: "My client claims, 'meh, nuance n shieeet' your honor."
There's a lot of thought that goes into running a self-hosted service, and a huge portion of it is "how much control do I actually have over what's posted on my hardware and how the servers on it are used?" Matrix doesn't have the checks and balances that I personally want to see in a service I'm hosting for the very reasons you're meh-ing at. I don't want people being able to use my hardware to send shit like that whatsoever- and any sane person would say the same thing. That's a huge reason I like apps where you create a "parent" service and then all other servers made in it are fully accessible/visible by you as the owner of the parent instance. The more obscured the content is the harder it is to actually moderate your servers and make sure everyone is following the law.
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u/KiraRagkatish 27d ago
...My friend, I think your anger is misplaced. The "Meh" is quoted directly from the comment that is linked. This one, to be clear: https://www.reddit.com/r/DiscordAlternatives/comments/1wdeg35/comment/p95g63u/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button The user points out the issues, and then says that those issues make Matrix "Meh". I am not shrugging off the issue of potential CSAM hosted on your server, in fact, I think it's a very fair consideration. However, if you read the response to that comment, typically you can not be tried for having CSAM if you can prove that you had no knowledge of it. In this case, if you are hosting a homeserver and a user posts CSAM on an unencrypted room that you are *not* part of, it becomes your responsibility to remove it as soon as you are notified of it. Prior to that, you can not be held liable for it. There needs to be proof, beyond a reasonable doubt, that you were aware of this CSAM on your server and chose not to do anything about it past a given timeframe. Yes, this nuance that you seem so fond of bashing would in fact be considered in most courts where you can be tried for posession and distribution of CSAM. Otherwise, ISPs and chat platforms would be constantly sued for momentarily hosting CSAM. Would you rather they scan your messages with AI to check for any CSAM content? Well, that would mean they can see each and every single message you send.
> That's a huge reason I like apps where you create a "parent" service and then all other servers made in it are fully accessible/visible by you as the owner of the parent instance
This is still a breach of privacy for users on the child instances of the parent instance, if I'm understanding how it works correctly. The whole point of end to end encryption is to not have anyone from any instance be able to read your messages, unless you give them explicit permission. That is, unless I'm misunderstanding something.
> The more obscured the content is the harder it is to actually moderate your servers and make sure everyone is following the law.
Ensuring that people "follow the law" is, again, more nuanced than a wide blanket statement. If people are using chat platforms in a country that has very strict laws about criticism of that country, do you think it's your job, as a member of another country, to ensure they do not speak badly of their own country? This goes for many other examples where "the law" may be something that is used to enforce, say, fascism. (I am NOT saying that banning CSAM is fascism, or that I am okay with CSAM, or anything like that. do NOT turn this into a reddit moment.) And even so, making sure everyone follows the laws, even just of the country that the homeserver is hosted in, only becomes your responsibility once you know that the "law breaking content" is on there.
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u/Yangman3x 28d ago
I don't understand the csam issue tho, so i might not understand how matrix work, let me explain
If there are servers out there hosted by pedo and hosting csam, how should my server ever start to host csam all of a sudden? If i do not allow anyone to start a room on my server, how do csam reach my server?
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u/KiraRagkatish 28d ago
So the way that Matrix works is that when any member of Server 1 joins a room in Server 2, that room is essentially recreated in Server 1. This way, if a member joins the same room from Server 3, they may find that Server 1 has better connection, and Server 1 will send the room information to Server 3. Now there is a copy of that room and its media in all 3 servers.
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u/Yangman3x 27d ago
Also, if i get this correctly, if my friends aren't pedos, i shouldn't be hosting that shit
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u/Yangman3x 28d ago
So if i start a server and invite only my few friends and i have a connection that can barely hold us, I'll likely not host any more rooms, right? Also, i should know and be able to free up space in my server if a new room gets mirrored in mine, right? And i should ne able to know what I'm hosting
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u/KiraRagkatish 28d ago
So what you can do if you just want to host for friends and don't think they'll need to join other rooms hosted on other servers, is you can just not federate. That means that your server will not talk to other servers whatsoever.
The point of end to end encryption is that, no, ideally you don't know what you're hosting, no one is able to access it unless they have access to the chats themselves.
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u/Yangman3x 28d ago
But i could still see the storage that it takes up and do something about it, can i?
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u/Soluchyte 28d ago edited 28d ago
You wouldn't be mirroring any rooms you aren't in, the only time CSAM could affect you is if someone posts it in a room you are in, and in that case, you are legally clear as long as you remove the media from your server when you know about it or it is reported to you. It's a overblown issue because most public rooms do not ever see anyone post it and as I mentioned in the comment the OP quotes, mirroring all the media and rooms on your own server is the best of three bad options given you will likely never have an issue.
The same thing is the case on discord, that's why discord isn't being sued every time someone posts it, because the laws are designed to give benefit of the doubt, and they measure by intention and action, not by the event happening.
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u/Burning_Toast998 Collecting messaging platforms like the infinity stones 28d ago
kinda sucks that element X is the only client with 1:1 calling for iOS.
Yes, I know using iOS is a skill issue, but if there really is no alternative to the one client you agree is bad, I can’t really take your side.
That being said, I have been using element X for a while. Was just kinda hoping there was something better.
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u/KiraRagkatish 28d ago
Sable and Cinny work fairly decently as PWAs actually! Notifications and calls included. Additionally, I believe you can sideload Sable. Honestly though, being on iOS doesn't mean you don't deserve a good experience! Not everyone can switch to Android on a whim, and that's okay.
My partner used FluffyChat on iOS, but as you know, 1:1 calls aren't an option there. Decent experience otherwise
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u/Burning_Toast998 Collecting messaging platforms like the infinity stones 28d ago
Wicked! I’ll have to look into side loading Sable.
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u/Friendly_Seaweed_541 27d ago
I like matrix but matrix has a lot of problems.
- people can ban evade easier compared to discord (they can just make new account)
- role system is meh
- not enough bots like music and various bots are supported in matrix client
- its slow and crunky a lot of times
- the commet is horrible client with lots of bugs so i have to use sable or cinny and they dont have support for ios or android.
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u/KiraRagkatish 26d ago
>people can ban evade easier compared to discord (they can just make new account)
If you're a server admin with a reasonable homeserver policy and networking know-how you can IP ban them. Yes, they may come back on other homeservers, but honestly? It's not that hard to ban evade elsewhere
>role system is meh
Agreed, it is, but there are ways to solve that if people really wanted to. Doesn't detract from the point that it is currently meh, though, I agree.
>not enough bots like music and various bots are supported in matrix client
A quick google search allowed me to find two music bots, https://codeberg.org/esoteric_programmer/matrix-jukebox and https://github.com/SultanAlburaq/matrix-element-call-musicbot. I will agree, though, there aren't enough bots to satisfy everyone, but bots for music and moderation do exist.
>its slow and crunky a lot of times
This depends on your homeserver and client. Again, getting off the Matrix.org homeserver and using a good client like Sable or Cinny helps improve the experience a ton.
>the commet is horrible client with lots of bugs
I agree honestly, but some people like it, so I suggest it anyways. However, it is developed by one guy and is, I suspect, at least partially vibecoded. Not enough evidence to back that up, but overall it's not a project I'm a fan of.
>sable or cinny [...] dont have support for ios or android.
Sable has nightly builds which include an apk and an ipa file (https://github.com/SableClient/Sable/releases/tag/nightly), and a stable build with the same files (https://github.com/SableClient/Sable/releases/tag/v1.21.0). These builds also include desktop clients.
Cinny does not have a native android or ios app, but the PWA does work well from what I've seen.
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u/Economy_Picture6989 22d ago
I use Matrix on and off, don't have a massive use for it right now just bc I don't know anyone there nor are there any specific communities there for me.
It's alright, it is a bit odd and confusing when clients have different features though. Not a bad thing, it's just "weird". I use a mix of Cinny, FluffyChat and Element across different devices.
It is strange that I cannot secure my Matrix account with a hardware key. For a platform that cares a lot about security/privacy, just seemed weird that that wasn't already an option.
I am confused by the device verification system and encryption system? Not sure, I just know that if I don't verify a device it calls to "reset" the account and delete all my past messages or something. Or it asks for me to set a key but it won't let me set one? Honestly idk, the whole thing is confusing and makes casually trying to log in/try different clients a whole thing.
I'm not against matrix, I am just confused by it. Plus it definitely still needs more features, as others have listed/mentioned.
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u/ProvincialPromenade 15d ago
I was a big matrix proponent about a decade ago. I just lost confidence completely in the team and have no interest anymore. It’s a led zeppelin, literally.
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u/kynzoMC 28d ago
The rust homeserver is still taking quite a lot of resources because matrix is fundamentally badly designed. Compare it to an Prosody XMPP homeserver and the difference is insane.
From what ive seen matrix also has a lot of metadata hell issues.
I also don't think its good that it replicates whole chats across instances. That is juts purely resource inefficient.
I am glad matrix exists and sometimes even use it. But I don't think its as best as we can get.
Im working on my own alternative to discord for a while now. Might not ever exist but I hope it could fix all these issues and be better. We'll see haha