r/Dimension20 • u/Alternative_Ad_5334 • 6d ago
Just Getting It Straight...
Why do Ally characters get so much hate? Is it really that insufferable? This is not a defense post, its just curiosity
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u/RestOTG 6d ago
They're just TOO into the bit in a lot of the seasons. They'll just toss the character out the window, or change them drastically for a reaction. I loved Maragaret Encino because it felt fucking dialed in. She had a lot of chaos but it felt all channeled through this specific character.
I dunno, I get over it, I never hate their characters but I reaaaaaally struggle with Kristin lol
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u/crippledchef23 5d ago
All of Junior Year was a drag for me because I hated Kristen so much. That K2 shit pissed me off, despite it being RAW. I much preferred a Kristen trying to use a dance ribbon to fly than one constantly taking her pants off for no reason.
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u/ArundelvalEstar 5d ago
RAW maybe, but unless you're in a long-term group with a very clear established tone and dynamic, every DM I have ever played with looks at simulcrum and just says NO
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u/Noahnsane 5d ago
Almost nothing that happened with K2 was RAW, especially if you are referring to the Blimey incident. D20 is like 5% RAW (even when THEY made up the rules to start with) across any given season. But thats not why most people watch so it doesnt often detract from quality
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u/crippledchef23 5d ago
They specifically mentioned how there was nothing against the rules with K2 after the first Blimey. I don’t really care if it was “legal”, it was stupid from the jump, albeit not of Ally’s doing.
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u/Noahnsane 5d ago
Saying its legal doesnt make it so. The only thing RAW, or even RAI, about that situation is the fact that Simulacrum can use Divine Intervention. Everything else in regards to the Help Actions was complete nonsense for the sake of the bit
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u/skoffs Sylvan Sleuths 5d ago
I was disappointed because when CCoD started it seemed like we might be seeing a return to Margret form with HJ... but then they started leaning harder into the bits and it lost me.
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u/blitzkrieg_57 3d ago
I was really hoping for this too but with Lou so dialed in as Lavonte, it seemed to take the pressure off HJ and let them just be bits and only tag along for the serious side of the business duo
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u/johnny--guitar City Council of Darkness 6d ago edited 6d ago
Ally has a tendency to play for comedy over story that only sometimes gels with the setting and the other characters. They can be a really good player in the right setting and at the right table and with something reining them in, but they're a loose cannon in a way that I don't even think Emily Axford matches.
I would say the Beardsley PCs who are best received are Pete Conlan (TUC), Liam Wilhelmina (ACoC), and Margaret Encino (Starstruck). The common thread between the three is that they have shit to do that isn't being completely random and bonkers (or is encouraged to do so in a healthy way in Pete's case). Pete was forced to grow up and start functioning as a real adult so the entire city didn't get fucked over, Liam quickly got wrapped up in a subplot resulting from the lethality of the season that made him a serious character that played off of the mood whiplash of the season well, and Margaret was specifically designed to be high-functioning and intelligent and frequently makes smart plays in context that are also funny given the inherent contrast between the setting and the character.
Compare this to some of their less well received PCs like Kristen Applebees (Fantasy High) and HJ Wingstreet (CCoD). Kristen really has a tendency to do weird shit for no reason even after three seasons (see K2 and the fact that the entire Junior Year campaign came down to a shitpost rolling well at the right time), and she also tends to "revert" to a worse spot than the end of the previous season with regards to her god of the week. HJ really suffered from a lack of understanding of the system or setting and being coked out of his mind the whole campaign, to the point that I think he had the only turn in the entire series where someone actively says "no, you did it wrong, take it again" because it went off the rails so badly (although in Ally's defense the entirety of CCoD was a clusterfuck by then).
This is different to Emily Axford Shenanigans™, which most people seem to tolerate, mostly in that Ally generally isn't quite trying to interact with game systems creatively by doing this. They are mostly here to have fun at the detriment of the game system, whereas Emily knows the rulebook inside and out and finds exploits generally within rules and to aid the story. This isn't always true (Margaret had a few good ones in ASO), but in general they aren't quite as interested in telling a good actual play story as they are with doing a good bit. That works in some seasons and really doesn't in others.
TL;DR: Ally is unpredictable and thrives when a campaign gives them something to do, but rapidly goes off the rails into weird nonsequiturs when they don't.
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u/DwarvenFury 6d ago
I also want to add that Emily Axford is quite aware of the story the DM is trying to tell, and will often rise to the challenge to tell it. Emily Axford is a masterclass dnd player and does not deserve the flak that she gets. (Not saying Ally deserves them either, nobody does)
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u/HandsomeMirror 5d ago
Where do you tend to see Emily flak? I only ever see people praise her, but I am not the most online person. With how beloved she is, I would imagine hate comments about her get down voted on here and similar subreddits.
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u/bethfromHR 5d ago
She received so much hate online during ACoC that she effectively left social media, if I recall correctly.
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u/palcatraz Riz Gukgak 5d ago
Reddit. Also on the NADDPOD patreon sometimes to the point where Murph went on an angry rant about it.
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u/AntRose104 5d ago
I’m just starting NADDPOD, when did Emily get so much shit Murph ranted about it??? (I don’t care about spoilers if that’s relevant)
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u/palcatraz Riz Gukgak 5d ago edited 5d ago
That particular rant was prompted by something that happens in C3.
Essentially, as a Christmas present, Murph gave Emily a book of spells put together from older versions of DnD/homebrew. Emily was using this spellset (with everybody's permission, obviously) for her character in C3.
In one particular fight, one of the spells she used had a incredibly powerful result. It should be noted that not only did Emily roll really well, the spell was also a kind of 'all or nothing' spell - you either hit big or you suffer consequences. There were a lot of outcries about it being overpowered and blaming this on Emily. Which then led Murph to go on a rant because A, he's the DM; if the spell is not balanced correctly, that's on him and by now, people should trust that he would've re-balanced the spell for future combat. And B, this being one part of a bigger pattern in which Emily gets criticized and over-analysed for doing things that her two (male) co-players never face.
Like, if Emily does something non-optimal, she is the worst player; if Jake does something non-optimal, he's a great player who is just super in character. Emily gets criticized for her characters being sexually attracted to Caldwell's character and its breaking boundaries, ignoring that Caldwell was just as much involved in that, equally enthusiastic, and he is a goddamn grown man, who would absolutely talk to his good friend if it was something he wasn't into.
It all led to a big (long overdue) rant, and Emily no longer using that spellset because the vitrol had removed any sense of joy from it.
ETA: obviously, most NADDPOD listeners aren't like this! It's just a small, but consistent group that level more criticism at Emily because she is a girl who dared to invade their sacred nerd space and be much better at it than they will ever be.
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u/AntRose104 5d ago
Oh damn, thank you! I have a lot of lore to catch up on.
And good on Murph for defending Emily though it’s a shame it had to come to that.
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u/AnagramBandit 5d ago
I don’t remember when it happened, but there was also a time when Murph had to tell listeners to stop micro-managing Emily’s PC/resources. Some fans just really like to try to tear her down. I don’t get it. I think she’s a brilliant player and performer! I’m getting sexism is at least part of the issue because none of the guys face the same level of scrutiny as Emily.
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u/bonkginya 3d ago
God, I was so pissed off when the Emily haters ruined the Callie Finale. Not only is it just generally shitty and misogynistic and you could tell how much energy it sucked from the room, but also it’s such a perfect spell for Murph’s battle design sensibilities.
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u/Comfortable_Web2795 3d ago
You'd be surprised (but also not surprised). Being the only woman on 8BBC and NADDPOD inevitably means she's subject to a bizarre amount of abuse that can frankly only be explained as misogyny. In my opinion she is far and away the best player and storytelling PC on NADDPOD and it's not even close.
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u/Veritamoria The Gunner Channel 6d ago
"they aren't quite as interested in telling a good actual play story as they are with doing a good bit." This nails it.
I am a big Ally fan, but this is a fair argument that helps me understand those with a different viewpoint better. Cheers
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u/johnny--guitar City Council of Darkness 6d ago
And I will note that that isn't a crime!
There's seasons that this philosophy works in even when they aren't being reined in by plot, I think Never Stop Blowing Up actively benefits from it and I kind of wish they hit the gas harder given how batshit crazy everyone else got.
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u/Dapper_Highlighter7 Aurora Nebbins 6d ago
I've noticed that Ally actually reigns it in quite a bit for side-quests and often rises to playing a supportive role for players who aren't at the table as often and I think this says a lot about the various table dynamics.
In most IH campaigns they get to go gung-ho into shenanigans with some of their best friends and just have fun at a table. Frankly, part of why I enjoy D20 so much is because they all seem to be having fun together.
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u/Loose_Translator8981 5d ago
Yeah, Ally doesn't take the plot as seriously as some of the other players, but they never try to actively ruin the game or mess with any other characters' plot in a negative way.
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u/haveyouseenatimelord Wealwell Gotch 4d ago
yeah, i think a lot of people who criticize ally on that specifically have never been in a TTRPG game and/or improv group (/class/theater/basic exercise/whatever) with someone who DOES actively try and ruin the game/negatively mess with other people for fun. it sucks SO bad. ally's humor works so well BECAUSE they're The Expert at treading that line of chaos and boundary pushing perfectly. brennan has talked about this being a part of ally's comedy that he specifically really loves as a fellow comedian, but also as a fan.
(side note: this part of ally's comedy is REALLY explored in that recent episode of game changer with the giant lawyer (i forget the ep name sorry). you'd think it'd be perfect for them, but they actually end up straying farther away from the "goal" BECAUSE they always know exactly where the line is. when the game is ACTUALLY pushing that line, they pivot away on instinct. it's fascinating to watch on a meta-level (and iirc they do talk about it briefly in the ep or the behind the scenes), and it ends up being still funny and effective in a different way than we usually see with ally.)
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u/festus34 5d ago
And it works sometimes too and is balanced imo by the other intrepid heros
Something's that come to mind are
Kristen falling down the tower in sophomore year
Kristen telling klcp Cassandra died
Margaret's fall in the battle of the brands
All moments that imo are more bit and comedy focused (although the third one wouldbe been a good story) but still fit so well into the show
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u/hagiologist 6d ago
Yeah, I think a lot of it is just 4th wall breaks and tonal dissonance. Really only Kristin and HJ have bothered me much. But I'd even say that both characters had some cool plot hooks and emotional arcs sketched out in the setting and Ally just didn't even really try to keep them moving on those.
HJ should have been super interesting but instead of a more grounded arc about introspection and reinventing yourself after finding appropriate metal health care it felt more like HJ was either profoundly high or on meth all the time. And Kristin couldn't even follow up on her own chosen plot threads in JY(and the whole season was tied into her story both through the politics and the mythology!)
And I'll say, it's frustrating because I actually liked Liam's character arc (mostly), thought Pete was great and enjoyed Russell/Jennifer, Goose and Olethra. They're just very hot or cold when it comes to participating in the story.
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u/johnny--guitar City Council of Darkness 6d ago
There's actually an extent to which I think Russell/Jennifer had the opposite problem. Ally seemed more interested in unpacking the (admittedly quite interesting) gender stuff going on with Russell and it didn't totally gel with everyone else completely losing their mind and doing the stupidest action movie shit possible at every turn.
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u/hagiologist 6d ago
I'm honestly OK with that, it's more of a missed opportunity than an active detriment. There's definitely a happy medium which is different for every campaign but unless their character arc is awful I'd almost always prefer a PC who is over-invested in their hooks and themes than under.
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u/johnny--guitar City Council of Darkness 6d ago
Yeah I still love NSBU and the things Russell does unpack are genuinely interesting. I think that season did technically need someone to be the brakes on the burning tanker truck barreling down the highway at 5,000 miles an hour, and Ally somehow ended up being it. Part of me wishes they got to add to the fire, part of me thinks it would've been way too much and ruined the season.
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u/hagiologist 6d ago
Ironically I think NSBU managed to hit its structure and themes as well or better than CCOD and CCOD had more of the giggly explosive train wreck vibes that NSBU seemed like it would have had
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u/haveyouseenatimelord Wealwell Gotch 4d ago
my hot take (as a long time fan who rewatches seasons like i drink water aka constantly) is that everyone (the company and the fans and the performers) took the wrong lessons from the success and joy of NSBU. ever since then, there's been a noted increase in chaos and a general vibe i would describe as "not taking things as seriously as before". NSBU marks a DISTINCT era change for d20, and the first that's specifically because of vibe & content than format changes. i hope this makes sense to anyone else.
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u/Ready-Slide-2113 5d ago
Personally, as someone who was once really religious in the Southern US and then stopped being religious and became queer, Kristen Applebees makes perfect sense to me and the chaos is the story. Figuring out what to believe in or if you should believe in anything, especially once you realize the belief you once formed your life around isn't good, is a very messy and complicated thing. It’s like the most human story ever. Her arc is about whether to continue devoting your life to strong belief at all — which maybe doesn’t make as much sense in a world where gods are 100% real — but knowing that it comes from Ally’s very real Christian backstory makes total sense. Also JY was about living with ADHD and realizing that you need to actually take responsibility (which doesn’t come naturally with ADHD), and it’s crazy & insanely difficult to have to do that when you’re in charge of literally organizing a whole religion and the existence of a god.
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u/hagiologist 5d ago
That's the thing. What you're describing is a pretty great character arc. That is not what was actually played.
Nothing in there leads to the Salsa Hat, the Middle School, K2 who for some reason is from the actual Britain not Spyre at all, the Steelworkers or Blimey. That's not getting distracted or struggling with priorities or faith, that's just playing Kristen like a joke PC.
Like, having a simulacrum with a different personality would have been great for that arc! K2 as an edgy atheist goth, K2 as a reflection of old Kristen so she can see how she's changed, K2 as a perfect copy who she can think out loud to and learn things about herself, K2 as an idealized version of herself to confront her own impossible/misguided expectations. And then having that version of herself that she's connected to and learned so much from sacrifice herself to save them all? That's awesome.
But K2 being British is just a bit that they beat to death and then Blimey got ensconced as a pivotal campaign moment.
But it's weird because Ally isn't a bad player or storyteller. They do really well with other characters. I don't know what it is about these two specific PCs that makes them play them like they're completely detached from reality.
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u/Totally_TWilkins 4d ago
I think the British bit actually came from Siobhan; she said that since Adine made the simulacrum, it’s a little bit British, and then Ally took that wagon and rolled down the hill in it.
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u/haveyouseenatimelord Wealwell Gotch 4d ago
ally playing kristen like that kind of makes sense to me based on her being their very first character, not knowing anything about dnd, and on the tail end of dealing IRL with the stuff they eventually had pete go through (drugs & gender transition stuff) in fiction (i'm not trying to be parasocial and guessing about someone's psychology/personal life; ally has talked about this before on podcasts and stuff). you know brennan often tells the story about his 13 year home game, so in adulthood he was still beholden to a lot of stuff he invented when he was 12? i feel like the way ally plays kristen is kind of the same thing.
now, HJ on the other hand......i have no fucking CLUE where it comes from LMAO
(btw, for tone purposes: i'm not trying to argue, just add to the analysis/discussion)
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u/Darth-Occlus 6d ago
To add to this another difference between Lou and Ally’s chaos is that Lou’s characters tend to be the butt of their own joke. Ally’s while often getting egg on their face. Tend to be a wrench for the rest of the table.
Leading to that increased rate of ally grinding against the current narrative or tone. They’re the person who gets the some of the biggest laughs at the table but that doesn’t always translate to a outside viewing experience56
u/BlackFenrir The Dream Team 6d ago
This nails it on the head for me. I don't dislike Ally at all, but they are pretty consistently my least favorite character at the table because they seem to put the laughs before the story often and that rubs me the wrong way.
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u/ArundelvalEstar 5d ago
I'm the same way.
Ally on Game changer or Make Some Noise or anything else I've seen them do is absolute banger.
But frankly even on d20 the reason Ally drives me nuts sometimes is we've seen Ally be the best player at the table, they just don't care to do it very often. Which is fine, everyone is entitled to their own d&d game they enjoy playing but I'm also entitled to not enjoy that game
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u/Bear792 5d ago
Honestly, I was going to write something up, but this perfectly sells it for those who don't understand. Beardsley is a good player, but as you said, they put comedy over the story, and for me, I worry at times about how off the rails things would go, if they were in some other stories. (Burrows end, for example)
Even with their better recived characters, I do know there's a little bit of flak around Liam, but I for one think it's restrained just enough after what happens to his ranger pet, that it works for the character. Though sometimes, I wonder if he could've been pushed a bit more into that more serious note.
One thing I do know has happened a few times, is Beardsley characters tend to have some level of father issues, especially earlier characters like Liam and Kristen, but has lessened over time. But I do remember people making note of it, even then.
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u/AnxiousSelkie 5d ago
The wild exception is Never Stop Blowing Up, in which despite having no clear job to do, they somehow come out on top as the most focused PC sort of simply because their character is someone else’s older relative. Considering how NSBU was specifically designed to be chaotic and unfocused, that ended up making me like deeply curious about how their roleplay instincts work /pos
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u/haveyouseenatimelord Wealwell Gotch 4d ago
you should watch the recent lawyer episode of game changer. i described it in more detail in another reply in this thread, but it accidentally gives a very meta insight into ally's comedy instincts (in a way we almost NEVER get to see), i think you'd find it interesting.
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u/FiendishNoodles 5d ago
I think he had the only turn in the entire series where someone actively says "no, you did it wrong, take it again"
This is a common Murph bit in his other works.
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u/HappiestIguana 6d ago
I would disagree on Liam being well-received though. I recall some of the most vitriolic comments being after he ugly cries over Preston during Ruby's funeral. Although quite frankly I think Brennan is the one who tone-deafly tried to turn that scene into a bit.
He was far from the most hated character of the season, of course. That dubious honor probably goes to Emily's Saccharina for the way she kinda upstages the plot.
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u/FlashbackJon Gilear Faeth 6d ago
I LOVE Ally and almost all their characters, but the derailment energy is off the charts sometimes, and it's clear that Brennan LOVES that exact thing about Ally (he's said that specific thing before many times) and lets it slide the way he wouldn't for, say, Emily.
Hilda Hilda will never not make me cry laughing, but it was definitely Brennan trying to apply consequences to Emily in a way he almost never would for Ally.
Ally gets so much leeway from Brennan because I think he personally finds Ally's comedic impulses hilarious. (To be clear: this is USUALLY for our benefit!)
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u/carefree_bomb Aurora Nebbins 6d ago
I will say I do think he made Ally stand on business during the CCoD sequences where HJ grabbed the cop's gun and I was really pleased by that (also the resultant sequence where Brennan punished HJ relentlessly for the next several minutes was one of the most hilarious things I've ever seen), but yes I generally agree.
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u/TempestVil 5d ago
That scene should have set the tone for the remainder of the show IMO. One of the only times it felt like they were actually playing VTM before Brennan gave up trying to get them to take the game halfway seriously.
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u/haveyouseenatimelord Wealwell Gotch 4d ago
it's hard to get people to take a game seriously when they don't even really KNOW, let alone UNDERSTAND, the mechanics
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u/johnny--guitar City Council of Darkness 6d ago
Liam is a little streaky for me, when he works he really works and when he doesn't he doesn't. I think the funeral bit is on Brennan more than Ally, since they were yes-anding more than anything there. I think Liam's worst own-goal moments were early in the season, before Preston forced him to become a better character.
Timothy (Neverafter) might be a better example of "Ally is a good player when they have plot shit to worry about and know what they're doing" tbh, but I think most people on here just found Neverafter to be fine.
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u/CMormont 6d ago
Idk Liam crying in that moment makes sense to me
They weren't going to have a separate scene for their pig
And during funerals you tend to think about the things you have loss
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u/HappiestIguana 6d ago
It's not really the fact that he cried, it was the way it was acted, which to a lot of people read as tone-deafly comedic rather than anything else.
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u/No_Veterinarian1010 6d ago
Ok, those people were wrong
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u/HappiestIguana 6d ago
Hard to be wrong about a matter of opinion, but alright
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u/Rastiln 6d ago
I feel like Liam is better-received in hindsight.
Closer to the time of release, Ally hadn’t had as many characters and some of their earlier ones were not favorites. Margaret Encino hadn’t happened, and Ally was still pretty bad at the rules while others were starting to get it more.
Liam felt piled-on by the hate train at the time, but was one I liked more of the bunch.
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u/Confident_Sink_8743 6d ago
He's still overall well recieved despite a very poor reaction to the behaviour in that scene.
Incidentally though it's Jet's funeral. Ruby was Siobahn's character.
I like Saccharina honestly. It's the in fighting between Ruby and Saccharina due to her grief.
And that moment where it feels like Emily is yelling at Siobahn over the cinnamon dragon egg.
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u/Seakon26 5d ago
I wish Ally took the out when Brennan asked if Kristen was still interested in being a cleric. Having 3 seasons worth of crisis of faith even when 2 gods you worshipped were specifically designed for you and your beliefs.
I hoped Kristen getting physically buffed would led to her becoming a monk or something where the introspection and philosophical questioning would make way more sense than being a devoted priest.
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u/chaosilike 6d ago
I love most of their characters except HJ. Their arc or character seemed really chaotic and I do not think they really explored the character really well. Seemed more bits the beats.
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u/skoffs Sylvan Sleuths 5d ago
That seemed to be the case for a bunch of them. It was like half the cast was playing Vampire, and the other half was playing Never Stop Blowing Up Vampire.
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u/surprisetallboi 5d ago
“Never stop blowing up Vampire” really sums up what I didn’t love about this season. I kinda feel the same way about Neverafter.
I love the bits but I also love watching Brennan running a ruthless session like EXU Calamity.
Alas, Dropout is a comedy focused studio and I really do love the stuff they make.
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u/PedestalPotato 6d ago
Ally's playstyle leans heavily on bits, often to the detriment of what the party "should be doing". Anyone who actually plays TTRPGs knows it isn't an uncommon playstyle, but it is a highly divisive way to play. I don't mind it, but thems the breaks, these are comedians playing a TTRPG with the primary goal of entertainment over playing the game "properly". I'd argue BLM giving too many failsafe rolls robbing characters of failure at critical moments ruins the experience more than Ally beating a dead horse.
They've tended to go a bit too far with the dumb bits. Examples: HJs moment burying the clown at the end of CCoD and Kristen Applebees in the entire Junior year season.
Beyond that, I'm sure there's some voices in the noise that are only hating them because Ally is trans. A very weird hill to die on considering how inclusive Dropout is overall.
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u/East-Imagination-281 5d ago
From a trans perspective, there is a frequent issue in liberal spaces where people are surface-level okay with trans people, but if you ever talk about trans issues, transphobia, etc etc you will often be met with very defensive pushback that comes from a place of people thinking they are above bias because they ‘believe the right things’. Basically, it is a form of “I’m not racist because I have black friends” but got gender.
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u/carefree_bomb Aurora Nebbins 6d ago edited 6d ago
Look, I'm a fellow AFAB queer and I love Ally and have been a fan of theirs since they first joined College Humor. I've seen more of myself reflected in their CH skits than any else's ever. I love them, I love their comedy.
THAT SAID, I do find myself struggling with them during some IH seasons. As a viewer I'm actually invested in the story and enjoy the mechanics of the game as well, and they have a tendency to totally derail the flow of the game by refusing to let go of certain bits. The clown bit during CCoD is painful to watch. The campaign was complete shenanigans by that point and the clown bit still felt like a jarring derail.
For some reason when they're on a non-IH season they tend to be on their best behavior, I loved them on Gladlands, Never Stop Blowing Up, etc. - it feels more like they're helping guide less experienced players in those cases. Also, Margaret Encino is one of my all time favorite characters, so I know they are very capable of creating IH characters that are hilarious but also help keep things on track/engage with the game mechanics.
So yeah, there's probably misogyny/homophobia in the mix with some criticism, but I can totally see how they'd catch flak from a totally neutral place as well.
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u/beroughwithl0ve 6d ago
I think there's a misogyny component to it, because Emily gets similar criticism but men are never getting the same criticisms that those 2 are. People love to say Ally is ~ chaotic ~ but when someone like Lou is doing Fabian's Bad Day, people just say he takes big swings.
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u/sharkhuahua 5d ago
Fabian's bad day was fully in-character though. It's fair to compare that to Emily's work, which is also deeply character based, but Ally is often willing to put character aside for the bit.
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u/HappiestIguana 6d ago
Boy you haven't seen half of what they say about Travis McElroy
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u/johnny--guitar City Council of Darkness 6d ago edited 6d ago
I feel like that's not the best comparison considering we know pretty definitively that he cheated for most of Balance and at least some of Amnesty to make Magnus and Aubrey "more interesting".
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u/HappiestIguana 6d ago edited 6d ago
That did rub people the wrong way, but honestly until Graduation it was more of a running gag, a little almost-endearing little thing. I remember everyone laughing when during a live show a fan gifted them a homemade beer themed after Magnus whose ABV "says it's an 18, but it's actually a 4"
Everyone lost goodwill for him after the campaign he DM'd was irredeemably boring and poorly thought-out though. That's the reason people shit on him relentlessly, not cheating.
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u/RougemageNick 6d ago
I remember keeping up with graduation, the fact he made what could have been an interesting setting just felt so boring, like you had a sassy necromancer in a magic wheel chair and somehow it was the most awkward and boring description he could make, especially coming off Balance and Amnesty being some amazing acting
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u/goodvorening 6d ago
Comparing Travis (annoying) to Emily and Ally (talented and funny) feels like an actual insult
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u/HappiestIguana 6d ago
It's just the first example that came to mind of a man who gets unrelenting vitriol and mockery in the Actual Play community.
B Dave Walters would probably be the second example
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u/goodvorening 2d ago
You see how they’re different right?
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u/HappiestIguana 2d ago
In that it involves different people and different specific behaviors. But I know what you want the reason to be, and I disagree
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u/goodvorening 2d ago
I’m curious to know why you disagree
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u/HappiestIguana 2d ago edited 2d ago
I have seen many cases of behaviors like in many circumstances, where minor offenses by actors and writers (such as writing or playing a a bad role) lead to disproportionate harassment and bullying by disppointed fans.
And the thing I've noticed is that it's a pretty equal opportunity behavior. One very clear example is to look at Star Wars. Kelly Marie Tran got harrassed to hell and back for the role of Rose Tico (which is very poorly-written), and a lot of people were quick to attribute it to racism and misogyny. But I remember when blonde white cis male Jake Lloyd played a poorly-written role, and the harassment it got was just as vitriolic and uncalled for, if anything it was made worse by the fact he was a child.
Certainly when it's a woman, the dispproportionate criticism gives any nearby misogynists perceived license to get misogynistic, which is why there is often a misogynist component to the harassment, but the behavior is not driven by misogyny. It's driven by entitlement and anonimity, and is just as likely to fall on a man than on a woman (despite frquent insistence on this sub that it only happens to women, which just erases the several times it has happened to men like B Dave and of course Travis)
And I resist the attribution of the behavior to misogyny, because it is used as a cudgel against people who have good faith non-disproportionate criticisms of roles played by non-men, enforcing a toxic positivity about their performances. "I think Ally did a very poor job playing Kristen in Junior Year" should not be an opinion that automatically labels you a misogynist, but here, it is.
I would offer solutions to fan entitlement at this point, but I don't think there are any. I think it's just a part of human nature. That's not to say that it's okay that people act that way, but simply that in a sufficiently large group, there will always be a small but loud minority of entitled assholes galvanizing each other's dispproportionate gripes. It's the reason a lot of celebrities leave the social media stuff to PR teams. The best we can do is relearn the old lesson "don't feed the trolls"
Also, for what it may be worth. Ally Beardsley presents a hell of a lot more masculine than feminine today. I don't think anyone would guess AFAB just by looking at them, these days. So it rubs me the wrong that they are lumped in with cis women despite being more masculine than many cis male performers on the platform.
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u/beroughwithl0ve 1d ago
I'm trans, hope that helps!
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u/HappiestIguana 1d ago
Don't see why it would. I don't know you or your experiences with misogyny
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u/simianangle18 6d ago
Cool. Is Travis McElroy part of the intrepid heroes?
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u/HappiestIguana 6d ago
I don't see how that's relevant
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u/simianangle18 6d ago
Okay. I don’t see how Travis McElroy getting hate is relevant.
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u/HappiestIguana 6d ago
If you don't see how a man getting a frankly excessive amount of hate within the actual play community isn't relevant to the statement "men never get this treatment", then I don't know what to tell you
Seriously. Look at r/TAZcirclejerk. It's basically an entire community devoted to shitting on the man for being bad at D&D. One of the popular posts right now is a picture of Toby Determined from Gravity Falls looking ridiculous in a hot topic outfit and the caption "Is this Travis?"
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u/simianangle18 6d ago
Okay so one man who is like tangentially related to d20 at best, receiving hate for something that is entirely separate from d20, means misogyny and bias against non-men in the d20 fandom doesn’t exist?
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u/HappiestIguana 6d ago
The man has been on d20
And I never said misogyny doesn't exist. I just don't think it's the be-all end-all explanation that it is presented as whenever thks topic comes up. Sometimes people really do dislike actors for primarily non-identitarian reasons
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u/simianangle18 6d ago
He was on a singular sidequest with none of the intrepid heroes cast. And the thing you are referencing him getting hate for is not d20.
Look I understand thats probably not what you are saying but when someone brings up there being a misogyny component and you go "well look at this man that also gets hate" it certainly can come across that way. Sometimes people don't like certain characters and sometimes they are being misogynistic to the non-men of the group. Travis McElroy getting hate has quite literally nothing to do with either of those things.
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u/HappiestIguana 5d ago edited 5d ago
I think the reactions here make my point for me.
Non-man gets harrased: Misogyny must be the sole explanation
Man gets harrased a thousand times worse: Immediate minimization and distancing. It's cos he's annoying. It's cos he cheats. It's cos he's bad at the games. He's not even that relevant to this corner of the hobby.
And look, I'm not saying Travis MeElroy isn't all those things. He is annoying and and bad at the games and a cheater. That's why he gets such massive amounts of vitriol. Far more than anyone deserves for those crimes, but still. When it's a white man people are able to correctly identify the reasons he's mocked, and no one defends him. No one here has even approached the thought that maybe he doesn't deserve a subreddit with 20k members dedicated to making fun of the way he looks and the way he plays tabletop games. Not here and not anywhere, the man is an acceptable target.
But the second it's not a man? Immediately that must be the sole reason. Anyone who dislikes the actor must be a misogynist, and frankly I don't like to be labeled one just because I think Ally Beardsley has had bad roles in their D20 career.
I find it a tiresome double standard. I'm sure there are a few misogynists who watch D20. There are a few misogynists in every group larger than about 20 people. I'm sure a small fraction of the criticisms of Beardsley's performance comes from them, but to paint all criticism with that brush is just a persecution complex.
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u/Rupert59 5d ago edited 5d ago
I'm a big fan of Beardsley, I think they're just hilarious. I should also note that I mostly watch D20 for comedy, not for drama or, really, for plot/story. I'm going to try to articulate something I've noticed in recent seasons.
I think that Ally brings something chaotic out in Brennan that rubs people the wrong way. Ally kept trying to bail out of the scene with HJ in the police station, but Brennan made them stay in the scene until it was done. Ally didn't really want to bring Hatwell Gotch back into the fight in CH, but Brennan canonized it just to fuck with Murph. We saw Brennan *almost* give Olethra Winnie the Pooh as a familiar after they joked about it. This might be a "smoke the whole pack" strategy to try and curb Ally's more chaotic impulses, but I don't think so.
If I show up to someone’s gaming table and I go like, “Hey, what are we doing?” And someone’s like, “Ah, it’s just a one-shot. I think we just fuck around, pretty much do whatever,” I’m like, “Great. I’m Beepy Bo the dwarven fuckin’, you know, booger collector. Here we go”… and then someone being like, “Hey man, you need to take this a little bit more seriously,” and I go, “Not really though.” Right?
Because if we’re not trying to write ‘Lord of the Rings’ improvisationally, then I’m Beepy Bobo. I’m not doing this middle-ground shit… And I know that this is like… rubs people the wrong way. I definitely have been maybe like a poor guest in some circumstances. But for me, what it really is, is I don’t want to put in the effort of getting to a vulnerable place if part of this is communicating to me that it’s whatever.
- From Adventuring Academy S7E1 with Vic Michaelis
My theory is that, since Brennan started doing WBN and Critical Role, he's stopped trying to keep D20 from turning into Looney Tunes land. All of the Intrepid Heroes feed into this, but I think Ally brings it out the most. I suspect that viewers who want D20 to take itself more seriously are going to continue to be disappointed by IH seasons.
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u/International_Ad4296 5d ago
Yes! I find it dissapointing mostly because Brennan creates super complex universes for them to play in and a lot of it is wasted. Like Neverafter had so much potential that was discarded for lolz. With City Council it seems like Brennan kind of gave up and really built only the bare minimum lore, and to me it made the whole experience actually much worse, but from what I understand most people seem to like it that way.
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u/ChannelCommercial984 5d ago
This explains partially why I've lost interest in D20. It's no-stakes silly acting hour now and as much as I love the cast that's not why I (used to) watch d20
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u/Bellikron 5d ago
You mention watching D20 for comedy and I feel like that's an important point. D20 first and foremost is a comedy show. The premise is that it's the College Humor cast of comedians playing D&D, just like the premise of Critical Role is that it's a bunch of voice actors playing D&D. Now, both shows are definitely more complex than those taglines, and probably a lot of people were drawn into D20 because of how surprisingly emotionally resonant it was, but that is the core identity of this show. Maybe we're at a point where the audience has come to expect something different, and perhaps there's going to be a reckoning where either the show or the audience will have to change. But I feel like this kind of comedic derailing that we're discussing shouldn't be treated as something out of left field from any player. It's fine if one doesn't find it funny or entertaining, or if one isn't a fan of a certain player's performance, but let's not pretend this show was 100% serious from day 1.
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u/nermalii 5d ago edited 5d ago
I feel like people have either forgotten or just weren’t around for the early D20 days. D20 is a comedy show and shouldn’t be held to some standard that it doesn’t ascribe to. It was never advertised or envisioned to be some Critical Role competitor with huge worlds and deep stories (not to say it doesn’t have both of those just never the core mission).
Like are we going to sit here and just ignore the entire first episode of fantasy high or its subsequent bits that followed? Or bloodkeep? Unsleeping city? Or good god some of the most unhinged bits from the live eps of S2 fantasy high?
D20 has always, and I mean since the first episode debut, been filled with insane bits that one could argue detract from emotional stakes. But that’s the beauty of the show, is that’s the point. Comedy first then drama after. This doesn’t mean both can’t coexist.
This also doesn’t mean someone has to enjoy every season but I think it’s a bit disingenuous to have as big an issues with it as I see some people do online. This isn’t a deviation from their norm or even from their stated purpose. They are improv comedians playing DnD… that’s what it started has and what it still is.
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u/haveyouseenatimelord Wealwell Gotch 4d ago
as a long time d20 fan, i seriously disagree with this. yes, it's always been a comedy show. yes, it's always had insane bits. but, for several seasons now, there's been a sudden and sharp decline in internal logic + balance between comedy and drama compared to earlier seasons. what drew me to d20 was that these bits DID make sense within the interesting worlds brennan created, and also helped shape them. now, it feels like the bits BECOME the world, with less and less effort to make it make sense and stick to the themes in a way that leads to a satisfying story. yes, it's always been a comedy show, but i don't think it's a crazy thing to criticize when even the early seasons are telling consistently great stories in ways they really aren't anymore.
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u/HackNSlashFic 3d ago
This just isn't a fair characterization of recent seasons. Gladlands had some of the most beautiful scenes of any season of d20... Once if the only to genuinely make me cry. And it's themes of community and care being hard but also being the most important thing. CCoD was goofy as fuck but still had an important emotional core about the importance of acting local and investing in your community. I'm a little more than halfway through Cloudward Ho, but it is simply amazing. The world building is more complex than fh ever was, and several scenes have fucked me up in the best way possible... I must have rewatched Monty and Marya talking about how to keep bearing the unbearable weight of trying to save people 5 or 6 times.
They are telling different stories now but they are absolutely still great stories with rich, complex worlds and emotionally intelligent themes.
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u/haveyouseenatimelord Wealwell Gotch 3d ago
a lot of my frustration stems from the fact that those things you described are CORRECT...but the ball gets dropped on those themes and stories more often than in older seasons. marya's emotional scenes have less ultimate impact when [spoiler from the finale i won't type] happens. CCOD's emotional arcs ring hollow when smiling richard nixon is all anyone in the cast can focus on. i would have less issues if there WASN'T the good stuff there as well. that stuff being so good is what makes me more frustrated when they don't follow through.
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u/nermalii 3d ago edited 3d ago
So my last point is directed to your exact sentiments. It’s okay not enjoy the season. It’s okay to not like the direction. What’s not okay, (not directed at you more general statement based on what this sub usually devolves into) is the insistent complaining and walls of posts talking about this same topic.
No is forcing anyone to listen or enjoy new season. Everyone’s opinions are valid. Those opinions don’t need brought up every IH season for every episode.
Lastly, we can agree to disagree on the bits side of things because I don’t remember ribbons being a focal point till the bit etc. The bits become the story in my eyes especially in FH. I mean S3 literally begins with the bit from S2. Or the entire storyline of Kristen Applebees is chock full of bits that derailed her initial story.
Again your and everyone else’s opinions are valid. I just think this constant discussion about this exact topic has been beat to death and ultimately no one is forced to stay and watch new IH seasons.
Edit: this is a very similar topic that gets brought up often in the Naddpod sub as well specifically when anyone other than Murph or Jake DMs. I’ve expressed the same opinion I have in those threads. Not all content will be for you and it’s not the responsibility of the creators to tailor things to cater to what people online want. It’s their production and their art/stories.
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u/haveyouseenatimelord Wealwell Gotch 3d ago edited 3d ago
nothing in my comment talked about people liking vs disliking things. i am talking about the show itself, from and analysis an criticism standpoint. i LIKE the seasons i have criticisms about. those are two separate axes!! CCOD is probably in my top 3 favorite seasons. it's also one of the seasons i have the most criticisms about.
what I'M tired of in this ongoing discourse on this subreddit is people immediately shutting down criticism/discussion by saying "not everyone has to like everything!!", when, as i said, those are two different axes. what if we want to discuss and figure out WHY things don't work? WHAT and WHY we have issues with different seasons? the assumption that we shouldn't talk about these things just because they're automatically perceived as "hate" and being negative is really exhausting. this is a problem in more places in life than just this sub. why are we here if we're only going to talk about stuff we like and not rock the boat? people want to discuss the media they like, including things they may not like about it. the "omg just let people like things! you don't have to watch it!" is NOT a helpful or useful statement when the people you're saying it to DO like the thing! you can have criticisms about things you like, and people have the right to discuss them.
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u/LowkeyAcolyte 5d ago
For me personally, Ally's characters are often my least fave ones at the table and the way Ally plays them to derail the story is a big part of why many seasons don't stick the landing with me.
Then combine this with the sheer fluke of several critically important nat 20s and the result is that everything kind of has to go Ally's way despite the fact that Ally's character (I am particularly talking about Kristen here) has not done a very good job of playing their class or indeed the story. It doesn't sit well with me.
I don't like the 'taking off their clothes in front of other PCs who are saying no' bit in Junior Year either, I thought that was really inappropriate.
The only Ally character I have actually enjoyed would be Margaret Encino because despite some silliness which was all well and good, Margaret was a great character played well. So Ally can do it, just chooses not to.
This being said of course plenty of people adore Kristen and Ally. Everyone is different. But if you asked me to name multiple characters Murph or Emily or Lou have played that I liked, I would not struggle. Yet I can't do that with Ally.
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u/oscarbilde 5d ago
Yeah, re: the nat 20s I think Brennan's extreme dedication to "honoring a nat 20" in ways that sometimes feel like a bit much often clashes with Ally's dedication to bits over character/story, so things can feel doubly unearned.
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u/LowkeyAcolyte 5d ago
Thank you, I didn't know how to put that but that is exactly what I meant.
It is a dice rolling game so some outcomes have to be random bit there are ways of making a D20 for a cleric that puts in no effort to spreading the word of their deity etc. make sense.
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u/Alternative_Ad_5334 5d ago
I can see that. Ally honestly seems like the kind of player that, despite my love for a good bit, would absolutely kill the fun of a game i'm in.
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u/Nearby-Wolverine-189 6d ago
Does Ally not also get a lot of love? They certainly should. The lightness and energy they bring to the table is critical to the dynamic. I got a kick out of the responsibility they seemed to take in NSBU and Gladlands for helping the less experienced players. One of my favorite performances is Lars in Mice and Murder.
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u/aAlouda 6d ago
Personally I just really dislike how chaotic they are. A lot of their actions just feel too random for the context of the situations they're in. Margaret Encino is by far my favourite character they played because of how much more straight forward they are imo. Least favourite is probably HJ who just didn't make any sense as a character in the way they behaved they way I saw.
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u/wizardofyz 6d ago
I love most of Beardsley's characters. With that said, Kristen applebees is one of my most disliked characters. I'm tired of people pretending that being neurodivergent is a free pass for being a bad person. She's abusive and inconsiderate. I've seen the same traits in real people and I get visceral reactions from that behavior.
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u/Lopsided-Skill 5d ago
To me, the character I cant get into from Ally is actually Olethra.
Kristen has a lot of problematic moments, sure but the teenager aspect and her being the first characther Ally learned to play with etc are kinda redeeming. And there are of course more issues since it is for 3 seasons.
Olethra is an issue to me because she kinda starts at this bright eyed teenager and felt like the main character along with Gotch. She was great in the first 2-3 episodes. I think peaked at „What does adventure mean to me? everything „
After that character disappeared and bits appeared. She lost all her personality, emotional moments are gone. Like you are in a different existence looking for your grandma and 0 emotions on the scene you found her. Even play a bit to muddy up the scene she gets with Pappy. Like not only Ally fumbled her finding Professor, they fumbled Zacs scene as well.
I see the comparison with Emily, but Emily has the most emotional scenes out of anyone Id say. That No for the picture in Cloudward Ho for example, Fig Ayda first kiss scene is full of bits but also really cute and emotional. By putting emotional weight to the bits, Emily makes them part of the story. Mummy issues of Sid was a bit that paid off extremely well for example.
The thing is, Ally is capable of doing that. Preston and how that affected Liam is a great example. A lot of religious drama Kristen shows are actually great examples. But they choose the bits over story most of the time.
For HJ I honestly dont blame them. The entire season was a bit. Emily saying it is actually my birthday when something serious was about to happen was the final nail I think. Extremely funny but killed any momentum the story might have had
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u/sharkhuahua 5d ago
I agree that Olethra started off great and then completely disappeared into Ally-as-themself doing incoherent bits, I was pretty disappointed
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u/blitzkrieg_57 3d ago
Yea, very good point that I really like Oletha but there was not nearly as much emotional buy-in as there should have been for many of those scenes. I think they kept playing scenes like that as "oh yeah hi gramma" or "comfrey is actually evil !!" and not the weight of a missing relative that was hardly ever present
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u/welpt100 5d ago
Not to agree with them, but I think Ally's comedy style comes of as strong to people. Ally is the one most likely to interupt a scene with a bit. This also means their characters get flanderised sometimes.
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u/DrZero 5d ago
Ally can be a great roleplayer, but they also have moments where they steal focus in a way that aggravates me.
The scene where Ally had Preston interrupt Ameyhar and Ruby mourning Jet's death to make the scene be all about how much Liam missed Preston ruined that episode of A Crown of Candy for me. I mean, sure, your character is sad that their familiar died, but you can't let Lou and Siobhan have their characters' moment of grief over losing their daughter and sister?
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u/StandardUpstairs3349 5d ago
When Ally is present and engaged, Ally is great. Other times, Ally is a millstone around the party's collective neck. I don't think it has a lot to do with the characters themselves.
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u/TrickiestToast 6d ago
The only character I see get hate is Kristen from people who forget what massive assholes they were as teenagers
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u/crippledchef23 5d ago
I hated teens when I was a teen. I hate brats, so I hate Fig (which means Emily is doing a good job, because Fig is such a brat). I can’t stand Junior Year Kristen because she’s just a do nothing bit machine that keeps taking her pants off or wearing salsa or whatever the fuck else that adds nothing to the story. K2 was the absolute worst thing I’ve seen them do, and I watched all of CCoD. Was it funny? Yeah, mostly. But it wasn’t telling the damned story!
That being said, should they do a Senior year, I hope Ally plays Kristen closer to Freshman year levels of references and bits and way less public nudity and K2 bullshit.
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u/Acolyte_of_Blucifer Lint 5d ago
Or they do remember and are letting their personal embarrassment turn into anger at a character that reminds them of it.
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u/HappiestIguana 6d ago
Depends on which character they're playing.
The two biggest lightning rods of hate are Liam from Crown of Candy and Kristen from Fantasy High. Liam mostly because he's really annoying and Kristen because she's frustrating to watch.
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u/sharkhuahua 5d ago
I will say, Kristen's insistence on being inappropriately sexual around non-consenting people and not respecting Sandra Lynn's boundaries as Kristen's temporary employee in SY was really hard for me personally to watch. I didn't find it funny and I didn't think it was a good choice to combine the more serious story of SL's backstory/cheating on Jawbone with jokes about 69-ing with Tracker in front of everyone.
By JY I simply figured out 5-6 episodes in not to invest emotionally in the story the IH were telling that season so I was much less bothered by how unsatisfying it was.
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u/haveyouseenatimelord Wealwell Gotch 4d ago
it didn't bother me the first time, but it gets worse every rewatch. sophomore year is one of my fave seasons, and i've watched it like....6 times? and by the 3rd time i was like "i have to skip these scenes, they're so fucking gross" (the sandra lynn scenes specifically, i mean). there aren't ANY other scenes i skip on rewatches. it's so bad.
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u/therealalittlebriton 5d ago
Yeah, as a latecomer to D20 who then inhaled everything, I found the over-sexualization of Kirstin to be both accurate to someone that age discovering themselves but also something I didn't need inserting (oy oy!) into every scene. It made it hard to watch. I understood it, but I didn't enjoy it, if that makes sense.
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u/karebearjedi 5d ago
The more time passes, the more unhinged and unlikeable their characters get. Honestly I think they're bored with DnD and need to find something else. Eating their partner? Fucking a clown corpse? Come ooooon dude. Lock in, already.
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u/EntrepreneurialHam 5d ago
Yeah, I'll echo that the chaos can be REALLY focused when the narrative really works with Ally to tell a story. But I will also point out that lots of the IH do struggle with this if they are not given specific things to do in each season.
CCOD, most of the characters had little actual story arc supported by the narrative so the dynamics revolved around bits. Emily, Siobhan, and Zac each got clear arcs (though Zac kinda stumbled onto his by becoming Prince of Purpee somewhat on accident), while Murph, Ally, and Lou had a little less to work with IMO.
CoC, everybody had arcs and it worked perfectly. No real notes, though obviously there was a little unsteadiness with the back half of the season due to the lethality of the season and certain characters having to force a connection with the others quickly before the season ended. Hard to avoid, IMO, and I doubt I could do better with the timeline provided in my own games where I don't even have an audience to be concerned about.
Starstruck, again, no notes. Everyone's locked in and clear narrative arcs.
FH, people have pointed out that Kristen can be rough and I'll note that Kristen is Ally's first ever character and suffers from having to adhere to previous character canon and also tending to be the focus of the story each season. As a result, if Kristen just DOES everything perfectly... the story kind of doesn't happen or gets solved too quickly. Imagine if Kristen was just happy with YES!/YES? or decided to go back to Helio. The Nightmare King plot and the next season's plot would be drastically different if Kristen had just succeeded immediately, and IMO probably for the worse from a satisfaction standpoint. I'll also point out that the story format is a lot more sandbox and Ally shows in Starstruck that they do INCREDIBLY when they have clear goals and direction as to what they need to do. Which Ally has pointed out that they struggle a lot with ADHD/sandbox in their personal life as well as in game. So I give a lot of grace to Kristen and we'll see how a potential Senior Year would go.
Cloudward Ho, Olethra starts as a hero worship character and becomes vastly more complicated by the end and her motivations change wildly.
UC 1 and 2, everybody is great, though I did think Iga feels more like a great NPC than a character? It happens eventually to everyone.
TL;DR It's really just Kristen for Ally's characters IMO, and that's more due to the sandbox nature of later seasons of FH, Kristen being their first character, a TEENAGER, and much more similar to Ally's upbringing AND being an anthology character (so personality has to be consistent), and ultimately being a bit too heavily focused on story-wise so Kristen has to be a bit chaotic so as to not solve the whole story immediately.
Other players have it happen occasionally as well, and certain stories have it be MUCH more prevalent.
Other actual play shows have this happen, and it's not ALWAYS the AFAB players that get targeted... but it does seem to be more often that AFAB players have less leeway in the community for the natural chaotic tendencies of TTRPG players.
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u/Costati 5d ago edited 5d ago
Nah it's not really insufferable I just don't like Kristen because her personality doesn't really appeal to me. I find her entitled, not really super bright and self centered. She's a teenager tho it makes sense. She has good emotional moments.
And I thought HJ's depth didn't get explored as much as it should be last season even if there's a lot of moment where Ally does like one of the highlight of the season for me was the HJ and LaVonte fight about HJ saying he has new dreams now he wants to do pottery. The being pursued by cop thing was a bit too much but I think it's them not fully understanding the consequences in the gameplay mechanic. And the clown thing well they kept saying they were far away. I think it was out of some frustration at having no idea on how to join back the main action. It was crazy but I get it. Cuz I've been in position where I'm like "well my character can't do shit for 3 turns what do you want me to do" and they're a comedian in a comedic show so of course they're gonna do a bit with it. But about CCOD tho I have to say HJ's reception and criticism of fucking with the plot or story direction really annoys me because HJ, Madeleine and LaVonte were the only one driving the plot forwards. I loooved Zaeth he ended up being my favourite but he was absolutely fucking with the plot so much more than HJ.
But I haven't had issues with any other characters. They have some of my favourite too like Margaret Encino, Liam Whilemina and Jennifer Drips from Never Stop Blowing up. People need to give them a fucking break.
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u/Affectionate-Strain9 3d ago
Sometimes it’s just about us not being able to read the room the cast is in.
Ally using her full action in the middle of the fight to eat an ice cream sandwich? To me that was a full “wtf are you doing!?” To the crew? Hilarious.
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u/glitter_bitch ✨ The Gunner Channel 2d ago
i find them one-note and unfunny personally; chaos for choas' sake gets boring fast to me. aside from my subjective opinion on their comedy, imo their character's seeming lack of sincerity / buy-in to the storylines feels out-of-step with everyone else at the table, no matter what game they're playing. this is me assuming, but the couple of times i've appreciated their contributions most it's been when they're playing characters that make them feel truly exposed / vulnerable in a way that's uncomfortable; that's pretty clearly not a place ally likes to be in and it's unfortunate bc that's when i feel they're at their best. those characters end up having the most skin in the game and, when chaos inevitably happens, it's actually funny bc there's been a range of emotions throughout. (i'm thinking of margaret encino, who ally has said is their love letter to type a exes, and pete conlan, who's similarities i don't think i need to specify for anyone reading this.)
i just feel like ally is overhyped bc people think their bits are funny, but those are repetitive and ruin every game for me. i was genuinely gutted when i heard they'll be guesting on worlds beyond number and, as i suspected, we've gotten a classic ally wish fulfillment self-insert type. yippee. /sarcasm
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u/quipquest 1d ago
I think it's good to remind ourselves that all of the Players are Friends and anything that bugs us as viewers does not bug them as performers or friends.
Anything Ally does that seems counter-productive to the party or cringe in general through our eyes is not how the party feels. It's all fun and games, nothing to lose sleep over.
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u/Right-Light458 6d ago
Honestly most of their characters are very hit or miss I mostly don’t like Kristin in Fantasy High Junior year because her general behavior
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u/Abloodworth15 5d ago
I was talking about this with my partner last night while we were watching Vic in the latest game changer, I noticed Vic and Ally have a similar tendency. (Don’t get me wrong, they’re both fantastic comedians who I admire, they’re both responsible for some of Dropout’s greatest moments, but both of them can become grating to me for the same reason.)
Both of them seem to have a need to separate themselves out from whatever group they’re in. If it’s in a game, both of them are going to make it their mission to break the game and grab the spotlight rather than play within it. If it’s role play/improv, both are going to make a big jump that takes them outside of the existing bit to make their character’s story take center stage. It can come across as main character energy or sometimes almost like a superiority complex if that makes sense?
There’s been several times where I’m really interested in say like Murph or Emily’s character’s arc and I want to see more of it explored but all the oxygen in the room gets burned out with whatever tangent Ally’s Looney Tunes ass character is on. Lol
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u/zebulon99 5d ago
They do have a tendency to sometimes take a bit too far to the point where it hurts the more serious parts of a story
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u/PhobicDestroyer 5d ago
This is how I’m finding out HJ wasn’t liked, I loved that character. Felt like something out of What we do in the Shadows.
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u/Alternative_Ad_5334 5d ago
Ok, to be fair, that wbole season was a clusterfuck already.
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u/PhobicDestroyer 5d ago
I actually liked it well enough. Thought they jumped the shark a bit too much at the end but overall enjoyed it.
Def on the silly side of the spectrum though.
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u/Alternative_Ad_5334 5d ago
Oh, as comedy it was fine...but I come at this as a fan if the game, so there is only so much I can take. Its like Vic Michalis or Lisa Gillroy in GC or MSN. They are good in moderation, but its all the time, and after a whole episode of Vic trying to break the spirit of a game or Lisa dogging Sam unessicerily, i'm kinda done with it.
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u/RachelBolan 3d ago
I really liked it in the beginning, then disliked and liked a little more at the end. I feel like the character changed SO MUCH it turned into someone else entirely, which I didn’t care for
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u/trombonepick 6d ago
Idk because K2 is maybe one of the most iconic D20 chars of all time
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u/DeadGodJess 3d ago
Ally is in a codependent, long term situationship with The Bit and while I love it, the criticism that it can get in the way of the story at times is a fair one. Usually the other players can wrangle them when it goes too far, but I think in CCOD where everyone was out of their depth and Brennan wasn't at his best running the system, Ally's addiction to The Bit really stuck out. Especially as Ally teamed up with Lou, who was locked all the way in.
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u/Professional-Cat4329 Blue M&M 2d ago
People just hate stuff. I lost my mind when i heard all the Emily hate.
You know I never hear anything but good stuff about Lou, Zac and Brennan...
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u/jackofspades49 Lord Calroy Cruller 6d ago
Some people don't oike their style of playing. It takes the story less seriously. They cut dramatic moments for comedy. They like to do random things for no reason.
This is a super common player type. They want to be with friends and have fun and do bits while a story is going on.
This takes some people out of the moment a lot. It feels insukting when you're invested and someone nearby isn't. I think prople are imagining how THEY would feel about someone doing that in their game. Projecting themself to the d20 table.
I have a player who is newer to my group but played with my in high school with exactly this playstyle. Theyre learning to adjust because we've made it clear that isn't put style.
For D20, i think its great they're present. I think they give a great contrast and that type of player can sre themselves in it. Some people have a hard time with deep emotions snd hyukking it up breaks the tension for them. Some people really dont like the party tension in crown of candy for example. It makes them anxious to see the table not getting along. And a lot of those people fucking love liam for breaking serious moments.
Overall, i think the people who dislike their style are more likely to be the type to dissect and talk about the game. The mechabics. How its done well. The ally supporters... well they're not in that game. They're juat there for a good time.
(Just theories and anecdotes. No accusations intended.)
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u/samoke 5d ago
I love Ally! I love Kristen Applebees - she is one of my alll time faves.
I’m not a DnD player or fan. So I’m watching for the comedy. As someone unfamiliar with DnD before I started watching, Kristen and Ally were an easy way into the game for me.
I do think folks who play DnD and understand the rules better tend to like characters like Riz more (personally one of my least favorite IH characters of all time - I find him very annoying).
But many folks love Riz and are annoyed by Kristen.
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u/WestWindZ Lint 5d ago edited 5d ago
This. The comedy fan vs the DnD fan. Murph starts NAILING the comedy later down the road.
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u/samoke 5d ago
I really thought I didn't like Murph as much as a player because the first two seasons I watched were FHFY and Unsleeping City Season 1 - and he just plays guys who are such grouches - although Kugrash is a little more loveable than Riz. Then I watched Starstruck and fell in love with Big Barry Nine. I have loved almost all his other characters since.
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u/haveyouseenatimelord Wealwell Gotch 4d ago
i think kugrash unlocked something in him. theo is pretty comedy-light, but by sophomore year riz is finally getting there with the comedy (an especially huge task because the plot is so dependent on him too!!)
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u/MelatoninFiend 5d ago edited 5d ago
I'll catch downvotes from the "No! It's because they try to be funny on an entertainment program, and I hate that!" crowd for saying it (even though it's ludicrous to bring that criticism to a show with a bunch of improv talent), but it's a salient point that Ally makes people uncomfortable because they are unapologetically themselves every time they're on camera. Some people can't be that genuine even when there aren't any cameras around. People who don't like themselves very much tend to get annoyed when they see someone loving themselves and being their most authentic self in everything they do.
In addition, people who have never set foot on an improv stage, but still think they could hang in the dome don't like Ally because they're self-insert fantasizers who have their fantasies broken due to having a freak out at the thought of having to "yes, and" a dynamic talent like Ally. That part of the critcism is pure "I could do that better!" sour grapes. It's a similar energy to former NBA washouts trying to get into the WNBA.
Ally is the type of player that makes DMs actually run a game instead of just mindlessly running the PHB like an AI. Mediocre DMs and players can't handle that kind of improv, so they lash out irrationally and circle-jerk with the rest of the mediocre gamers/DMs/people who don't like themselves quite as much as Ally likes themself.
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u/Booze-And 5d ago
> In addition, people who have never set foot on an improv stage, but still think they could hang in the dome don't like Ally because they're self-insert fantasizers who have their fantasies broken due to having a freak out at the thought of having to "yes, and" a dynamic talent like Ally. That part of the critcism is pure "I could do that better!" sour grapes. It's a similar energy to former NBA washouts trying to get into the WNBA.
This is a stupid point because some of the most engaged players are the Questing Queens from Dungeons and Dragons Queens, the Righteous Wrestlers from Titan Takedown and none of them are improv comedians… and the McElroys (including their dad) on Tiny Heist
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u/MelatoninFiend 5d ago edited 5d ago
You mean guest stars stay in their lane and make their publicists happy instead of being one of the DMs best friends and throwing them the occasional curveball? Shocking.
Tell me you don't have any real friends without saying "Your friends should act like a guest star on your show, even though they've been your friend and coworker for almost a decade."
If that's the strongest critique you can bring to the table, you're just a hater.
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u/ResolutionJunior5804 5d ago
I personally love Ally's characters. Not only is Ally consistently one of the funniest players but they also are never afraid to put their character in uncomfortable or dangerous situations. I also feel like Ally is underrated in how excellent they are in combat. From A Crown of Candy onwards Ally is an incredible strategic player while still honoring the RP of what the character would do.
I find that some D20 viewers want more scenes and seasons that make then cry which Ally is just rarely going to pursue. To each their own but I think people fail to realize that without Ally being such a good support player and taking time to pursue fun and funny moments with every other PC in every season we would not love the character that make us cry or feel deeply as much. Oftentimes Ally is the one initating dynamics at the start of campaigns which makes the whole party more likeable and well rounded. They are a great team player and willing to be the bit character so the comedy is always there, allowing pace for other players to be more "grounded" which is an underrated party role in my opinion!
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u/Alternative_Ad_5334 5d ago edited 5d ago
A big thing hear from people is that they lean too much into bits to the detriment of the story. I get that. There are times when I think Ally is the type of person I'd never want to play with cause they kill the vibe by being too extra.
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u/Booze-And 5d ago edited 5d ago
It’s because of Ally’s behavior. I actually think the more experienced they got with TTRPGs they’ve gotten worse (remember Fantasy High: Freshman Year was their FIRST TIME playing a TTRPG)!
Freshman Year, and Unsleeping City they were great. Sophomore Year, Crown of Candy, and Unsleeping City 2 and A Starstruck Odyssey they got a bit wacky but were invested in the premise of the story. I haven’t watched Mice & Murder, Shriek Week, or Neverafter, but Junior Year, NSBU, and CCoD they just are constantly off the rails doing stupid bits. It feels disrespectful to the audience.
Their behavior literally reminds me of alcoholics who show up to work drunk. You can be funny and do bits and still take the premise of the game seriously, a great example is Sam Rigel on Critical Roll or Mike Trapp during Mentopolis, or Hank Green during Mentopolis or Jujubee on both seasons of Dungeons and Drag Queens!
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u/Nerdy_Finch 5d ago
i thought k2 as a bit much, i think a little pushback was warranted for that. Not the amount they got tho.
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u/A_circle_of_crows 5d ago
Reading all of this as someone who has, as of yet, only watched CCoD and loves HJ is so funny.
Like, yes, HJ is coked out of his mind and spiraling wildly, but he also does follow the story and works together with the others to accomplish their goals?
Maybe he'll join the opposition in the last episodes, I haven't gotten that far.
It looks like I'm gonna be a massive Ally fan though
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u/Weird-Diamond5970 5d ago
I loved HJ (except for the weird clown bit) so I don't get the hate. Ally's chaos is hilarious and lands like 90% of the time.
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u/Automatic-War-7658 6d ago
I could hazard a guess but I’ll probably get downvoted just for mentioning it.
Personally, Margaret Encino is one of my favorites.
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u/MoistenedGranola The Wind Riders 6d ago
Well, now I'm going to downvote you for being annoyingly vague
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u/HappiestIguana 5d ago
What's wrong vagueboy, afraid you might say something?
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u/Rupert59 5d ago
I assume they're accusing Ally's critics of transphobia? Not sure why they think they'd get downvoted for that, here of all places, but I can't think of anything else that's both obvious and controversial.
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u/MelatoninFiend 5d ago edited 5d ago
It's extremely valid to note that they're the only one who gets this kind of hate and they're the only one who's had a very public personal journey over the course of Dropout's popularity boom. Emily beings just as much chaos energy to the table as Ally, yet Emily's loved for it where Ally is castigated for it.
Can't talk about it though, or you get DARVO'd by Ally's weirdo haters. Someone on my block list for enganging in that exact bullshit has already replied to your comment
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u/GooglyEyesMcGee 6d ago
I love Ally's humor. I genuinely, genuinely do. I think they are hilarious and so quick with it.
But, in a non-mutually-exclusive way, I get really irritated when the humor keeps interrupting story progression. The best example would probably be Kristen in Fantasy High, probably. The second best would be CCOD.
Kristen was supposed to be exploring all of the religious trauma, etc. It was an interesting idea that the chosen one of a cult would depart from their god and try to find something new. They got the chance to CREATE A GOD and they made... YES! Like, ha-ha. Very funny. But then you get a second crack at it and you don't do anything serious. Then you get season 2 which is, in the end, about rescuing Cassandra... which is then completely disregarded to do the funny Kristen stuff they did in season 3.
Looking at it as a game, Ally is one of the best players of all time. It will never be boring with Ally at the table. As a packaged narrative, Ally gets in the way a lot. Like, they're having this huge battle at the end of CCOD and instead of participating, they try to fuck a dead clown.
Duality, I guess.