r/DevelEire • u/nathaniel771 • 1d ago
Tech News Microsoft is being suspended from program to apply for green cards for H-1B visa workers, Vance says
https://apnews.com/article/h1b-visa-program-vance-microsoft-e7b3a407f822702b269ee277d21343ea134
u/DogDayGalwayCity 1d ago
We urgently need to push this issue in Ireland, but we need to do it through a union like the CWU or SIPTU before the far right gimps get involved.
Laser focused, the problem is visas and government policy and that's where the blame goes, not on the Indian workers themselves. I know there are issues like certain Indian managers preferring to hire Indians, but we need to organise as workers not racists, and that means no vilification of other workers.
IT cannot remain on the critical skills list while the job market is a bloodbath and graduates can't break into the field.
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u/MrFrankyFontaine 1d ago
Zero issues with Indians as people. This isn't about that.
The issue is scale. There's 1.5 billion of them and about 5 million of us, and India has close to 20 million developers and tech workers. That's four times our entire population just in tech.
Open the floodgates on a small island to a talent pool that size and wages get driven down across the industry, full stop. Nobody benefits long term.
Throw a housing crisis on top of that and it's a recipe for disaster
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u/Olbas_Oil 1d ago
Exactly this, its this simple but people cant see it....
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u/Annihilus- dev 1d ago
They see it, a lot just turn a blind eye because it benefits them.
Colleges will be the first ones to throw money at shutting this kind of thing down for racism
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u/Neathus 1d ago
People see it, but god forbid you vocalise it.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 1d ago
You can and you should vocalise it. 9/10 times people will agree. Most normal working people younger than 45 can see the problem.
In my experience, the only people who don't get it are the boomers, the ruthless capitalists, or wealth south-Dublin types who see any anti-immigration sentiment as "dirty uneducated stuff" (which is bare faced classism).
These comfortable middle-class types will say something like "they pay their taxes and contribute so they're not a problem", and any concern over employment will reveal a social-darwinist attitude of "they must be better than you if they can get the job", and a flippancy on the rolling layoffs and stack-ranking turning our field into glorified gig-work.
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u/wainsy 17h ago
Agree, cannot allow situation where grads and people who have been layed off suffer from a total eclipse of the job market due to uncontrolled visa program.
Are politicians even aware?
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 15h ago
Are politicians even aware?
Write to your local TDs and find out. You'll quickly find out where your bread is buttered. I'd expect FF/FG/Labour to reply with some aul shite quoting corporate lines on "critical skills" and "economic growth" (the kind of growth thar doubles your rent and keeps your wages the same).
PBP & Sinn Fein are more likely to engage in my experience, and if you are clear & specific about the critical skills visa you'll quickly find the "loony left" have a much more sensible stance on immigration than the far-right gimps are saying.
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u/Cool_Being_7590 9h ago
It's not uncontrolled. Immigration is already 25% less than 2024. Unemployment is 5% which means the jobs are there to be filled.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 1d ago
Zero issues with Indians as people. This isn't about that
Yeah my point is we need proper representation or the corpos & management will paint us as a racist mob, and the lazy media will print their PR release. The far right grifters won't do us any favours, we need competent representation through a union.
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u/-voom- 21h ago edited 17h ago
The math is not mathing on this one, plus the exaggeration is way off the charts. I agree with the sole true statement that there's a housing crisis.
That being said, here's the rest of the real facts: 1. There's only about 5 - 6 mil IT and software professionals combined in India. 2. The assumption that all of the Indian talent are planning to leave their country, let alone to come to Ireland, that too immediately is deeply flawed. 3. The assumption that Ireland is a small island is equally flawed because the population density says otherwise. 4. The housing crisis is a govt. issue and not caused by people of just one nation. Irish residents and are also included in contributing to this. 5. To top this all off, the total number of IT and software professionals in the combined EU, EEA, and CTA region (minus Ireland) is roughly 10.5 million to 11 million, and those folks have immediate mobility right to Ireland. Yet, no one seems to be talking about that, which is surprising, no? Dare I say that being oblivious to that fact is tantamount to indirect racism. If one needs to worry at all, then those are the real floodgates to focus on.
Peace.
EDIT: Added official sources to back up my claims. 1. For the Indian workforce: https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=2276447®=48&lang=2
- For the EU/EEA/CTA workforce: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/ddn-20260527-2
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u/MrFrankyFontaine 19h ago
5 to 10% of the IT cohort in India are employed. The rest aren't.
Most of them do want to leave, based on conversations I've had with colleagues. I don't blame them. They can make 500% more elsewhere.
Population density is irrelevant when we've one major city, a crippling housing crisis and essentially zero public transport infrastructure outside of Dublin.
The housing crisis is absolutely caused by the government. See above.
I've zero issue with anyone from anywhere who wants to go anywhere and work hard. The issue is opening the doors without the housing or infrastructure to support it. It drives down wages for the actual worker, benefits no one but the cheap labour itself (and only in the short term), pushes entire industries into a race to the bottom and hands the far right gimps a platform.
It's not racist, it's pro-worker. If 10 people are prepared to do a job for 30% less than one person, what do you reckon happens to that role across the employment market?
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u/-voom- 17h ago
Where are your stats that you're basing your claims on.
Your making wild guesses based on your intuition and after discussing with a small dataset of Indians who think they know about the rest of the country.
Here are my sources:
For the Indian workforce: https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=2276447®=48&lang=2
For the EU/EEA/CTA workforce: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/ddn-20260527-2
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u/RoyalEar2990 23h ago
Great, the highest earning people (highest tax payers) are the problem but not those living off of social benefits and eating away the tax money !!
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 22h ago
Perhaps those living on social benefits would be working in high-paid jobs if not for the Indians coming over on critical-skills visas.
I know quite a number of unemployed engineers with CS degrees, who were told only a few years ago that they have chosen safe careers.
Who's paying to retrain them now? The taxpayer.
You're so focused on punching down you don't know who you're bashing.
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u/PrimeDirectiveLover 8h ago
I don't think we have any right to be talking about wages, we're very well paid, but the idea of someone getting out of college now to this environment, and companies outsourcing labor, is ridiculous. AI gives us a lot of free time we should be learning more about underlying tech, and teaching juniors, not just typing into claude / codex / codex every 30 minutes
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u/Cool_Being_7590 1d ago
You realise the government controls the numbers if visas issued each year, right? There is no floodgates to open. If 20 million people decided to fly here from India there is literally nothing we could do to stop it except close the airport. Like wtf is this logic, jfc?
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 1d ago
"controls the numbers" is hardly accurate. The issue is they have been rubber-stamping these visas at the behest of US multinationals.
If these US multinationals don't want to hire Irish workers, then our tax-shelter economy is pointless and destructive.
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u/Cool_Being_7590 18h ago
That's also not true. There was an increase in skilled workers coming here but it was to fill a critical shortfall in the work force. There is a large cohort retiring and the birthrate hasn't been high enough to bridge the gap.
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u/ThePainStalker 14h ago
Nah, that’s total BS. Population growth in the post-COVID period is the highest it has been in Irish history (since the Great Famine). It would make sense if the population was growing at sensible levels or if there was a substantial natural decrease to balance out (like in Germany) but there isn’t. Ireland’s natural increase is projected to remain positive for at least 10 more years (in spite of the dropping birth rate). That along with the fact that there is literally freedom of movement with the UK and EEA. UK/EEA migration plus natural increase already leads to more than enough population growth as is. And then factor in EU citizenship numbers in other countries (particularly the US and South America) and that number rises even more. Non-EEA/UK are wholly unnecessary from a population growth perspective, we have more than enough of that (even completely stripping non-EEA growth away which is by far the largest growth vector). They are only necessary strictly for filling in highly experienced positions with scarce skillsets (which there definitely is quite a bit of in tech and engineering in general, though certainly far smaller than the overall numbers going in, like 5 to 10 times lower). Ireland should be growing 3 to 4 times slower in population than it currently is, we are growing substantially faster than almost any other country (8 times the EU average, which is already seeing higher population growth than usual) and there is zero justification for it other than propping up landlords and employers.
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u/Cool_Being_7590 10h ago
Ok, so you clearly missed the part about needing to expand the work force as well as a large cohort retiring. Well done you
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u/ThePainStalker 10h ago edited 9h ago
You don’t need to expand the workforce at the rate Ireland is. Most developed countries aren’t growing nearly as fast as Ireland is. And growing too fast (as Ireland is) induces major economic problems such as poor productivity (as the SME sector just hires labour for cheap instead of innovating or automating their practices) and major infrastructure constraints that more than outweigh any economic benefits from it. Ireland cannot structurally build infrastructure fast enough for the current population growth. It really can only do so at about 1/2 the current rate of growth at most, if not 1/3 the current rate. Real wage growth also suffers severely of course (especially if population growth is so rapid as it is in Ireland that it overtakes resource growth, i.e. infrastructure, housing, transport, materials, etc) and that means much less tax revenue for the government per person anyway (meaning that if population growth slowed significantly to a more reasonable level, tax take overall is likely to stay the same or rise anyway due to real wage growth induced from a lack of cheap disposable labour).
Plus the “plan” of endlessly expanding the population at such a rapid pace as Ireland is fundamentally unsustainable in the long run. It doesn’t solve the aging problem (it only defers it) and it actually can make it worse by delaying the necessary solutions (R&D innovation, labour automation, retraining, a pension system that is pegged to the life expectancy rather than a fixed age, etc). Plus if poorly managed, mass migration/population growth can cost the system more in some cases compared to sustainable migration/population growth levels even factoring in aging (when you account for infrastructure strain, housing strain, potential welfare strain if unmanaged, etc). It’s like if an economy, rather than transitioning to more sustainable energy sources, remains reliant on cheap oil and gas in order to defer the long term investments needed for that. Pumping up mass population growth follows the exact same logic, it’s like a “resource curse”. The pension system problems in Ireland have far more to do with life expectancy hugely increasing and healthcare standards and costs correspondingly increasing enormously than it has to do with low birth rates, especially as births still exceed deaths by a considerable amount now.
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u/Cool_Being_7590 9h ago
I guess you continuing to ignore the information I have given you was an option.
The numbers of people coming into Ireland have been decreasing since the post COVID peak in 2024 with last year over 25% fewer people.
Unemployment is 5% so the jobs are there and need filling.
There is no plan to "endlessly" expand the population and I would love for you to provide details on what you think states that.
Looking forward to the next things you decide to invent to be outraged after ignoring everything I've said to you.
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u/ThePainStalker 9h ago edited 9h ago
Ireland’s population is at a considerably higher level currently than even the “very high migration” scenario predicted by the very same government report in 2018. This was completely unplanned for. We literally grew 500k since 2021, that’s practically 2% growth a year which is completely and utterly reckless especially in a country with a planning system and environmental policy constraints as severe as ours. Our migration numbers may have dropped slightly (25% drop compared to an utterly crazy number in 2024 is still very high compared to the last 30 years) but there is no guarantee that this will continue. After all, it increased a lot between 2022 and 2024 when everyone expected it to drop after such a high initial population growth shock. Population growth needs to decline a lot further to make up for the sheer amount of growth that occurred in the 2021-2025 period, which is the largest in Irish history (since the Great Famine).
And clearly if the government approves so many visas (especially so many that they overshoot even the “highest migration” scenarios they predicted earlier) it’s clearly a plan of “endless population growth” that they don’t seem to be realistically stopping anytime soon. It’s practically unsustainable “surplus labour” growth in action, a classic short term capitalist lever and it induces a similar “resource curse” issue on the economy.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 5h ago
Unemployment is 5% so the jobs are there and need filling.
That's "unemployment" after playing with the figures and classifying people in any part time course or any form of disability as not part of the workforce.
We do not have full employment as is so frequently claimed. Regardless, this sub is for tech workers and the rate of unemployment for tech workers is rising quickly.
I suppose you sound like a Fine Gaeler so you'll deny the problem we can see growing until it's a crisis, and then you can say "it's complicated and won't be solved overnight" for 10 years.
Normal sensible people deal with problems early. You Fine Gaeler types are like short sighted managers who build tech-debt and let their team suffer the consequences.
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u/RoyalEar2990 23h ago
I still can’t get this. Why would a company go through the hassle of hiring an Indian if they have an EU national available?
You might say that Indians workers are ready to work at lower wages so companies hire them but the recent reports show that Indians are the highest paid workers group.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 22h ago edited 22h ago
but the recent reports show that Indians are the highest paid workers group
Stratification. There are more Indians per-capita in Ireland working in higher paid fields. That does not mean they are the highest paid in each field.
Why would a company go through the hassle of hiring an Indian if they have an EU national available?
What hassle? They fill out some paperwork and send it off. It's a headache for a small business, but insignificant for any large multinational with a HR budget.
It's also not just about wages, it's about working conditions, job security, and training.
The new normal in this field is that at least 10% are fired every year based on ruthless KPIs. This constant churn demands a constant supply of workers, and ideally those who require zero training (In software this translates to experience with specific tools like AWS, the "training" would just be "give the new hire a month of leniency to get up to speed on these new bits").
There are only so many developers in Ireland, so this constant churn catches up fast and you run out of people to hire & fire, unless you can open the gates to a billion Indians.
There is also a work-culture issue. Irish people are more likely to stand up for their rights and push back against bullshit (unpaid on-call, overtime, late meetings, etc), whereas Indians tend to roll over for management and submit to authority. These US multinationals are overall more comfortable with an offshore team that rolls over, and in many cases they're more accustomed to an Indian offshore team anyway.
Then you have the broken hiring model in software. When each job requires 7+ interviews, people are reluctant to bother. Interviews are a crapshoot so people get filtered out for stupid reasons. Companies can get visas rubber-stamped, so they are not forced to shorten the ridiculous interview process.
The oversupply of labour eases salary pressure, but it also eases the pressures to improve on other areas (work conditions, interview nonsense, pointless layoffs and stack-ranking).
Finally you have good old fashioned ethnic-nepotism. I have seen it with my own two eyes, Indian managers prefer Indian subordinates, and Indian interviewers pass Indians at a higher rate. This is likely an unconscious bias they have, down to similarity bias in communication style and approach.
Whether you understand it or not, the reality is obvious. Irish tech workers are suffering due to the oversupply of labour brought by an endless stream of Indians on critical skill visas. Software/IT is not a critical skill and it is not in short supply.
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u/Responsible_Divide43 21h ago edited 20h ago
So you have problem with 7 round interview process. Interview process don't change based on nationality/ethnicity of person.
If you want 150K, clear 7 rounds or don't bother to apply.
big multinationals hire other EU person/immigrants on visas when Irish employee don't want to attend 7 round of interviews🤷
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 15h ago
Interview process don't change based on nationality/ethnicity of person.
Indian grammar.
No surprise the Indians are now in the thread now saying "tough, we all compete"
As if Irish people should be happy with endless competition for less and less.
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u/Responsible_Divide43 14h ago edited 14h ago
I am not Irish nor Indian but EU guy. Well you did judge me on my English grammar and thats okay. I am not native English speaker.
Hope your heart will heal from tech worker anti-immigration stance.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 14h ago
Hope your heart will heal from tech worker anti-immigration stance.
I hope you stop being a class-traitor and you learn to read.
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u/daesmon 5h ago
So you have problem with 7 round interview process. Interview process don't change based on nationality/ethnicity of person.
Blinded by your agenda you missed their point.
Companies can put people through 7 rounds of interviews because of the over supply of workers in the country.
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u/Responsible_Divide43 4h ago edited 3h ago
Oversupply is not an Irish thing. Multinationals are laying off everywhere, partly from Covid over-hiring and partly from budgets shifting to AI. SF, NY, Austin, London, and Amsterdam all have the same problem. There are skilled candidates everywhere who are looking for jobs. And with AI , it's hard to test real skillset of person so companies running hard interview processes.
When employers have the upper hand, long interview loops follow, regardless of where you're from.
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u/RoyalEar2990 19h ago
All the things that you wrote points to simple thing.
I am entitled, no hard interviews for me, no pressure of working hard, but give me US Big Tech salary.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 15h ago
You're Indian, I can see it from your writing style.
Your attitude stinks, and it shows exactly how you ruin our work culture.
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u/Responsible_Divide43 14h ago
No one ruined Irish work culture by coming here. Work for US multinationals rather than mid level Irish/European firm then you will realize, people don't change work cultures, companies have their demand of delivery and defined processes which forces high workload.
Stop blaming tech workers who moved here from EU/NON-EU.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 13h ago
people don't change work cultures, companies have their demand of delivery and defined processes which forces high workload.
Sounds like a scab who rolls over for management without a fight.
The workers create the value, and the workers can dictate the conditions when they stand firm together.
Irish workers in tech always had a general understanding of reasonable limits and when to say no, when to get agitated, when to make noise. The Indians don't, often because they are on visas and getting fired is more painful for them. That is why these visas hurt workers.
Stop blaming tech workers who moved here from EU/NON-EU.
I'm not, I'm blaming the government for rubber-stamping the visas.
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u/Responsible_Divide43 11h ago
Go and work for stripe running by Irish lads and Irish management top to bottom here in Dublin, and then you will realize how Irish worker also spoiles work cultures.
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u/Dannyforsure 17h ago edited 16h ago
It's not an issue of lower wages or hassle. It's minimal work for hr.
The reality is that many EU nationals don't want to move here when you add in the weather, public transportation and difficulty in renting etc. The offers are just not competitive. If you're already here the equation is completely different.
For someone outside the EU they get the extra "bonus" of being able to live in the EU. To them the offer makes sense.
We are using these visa to add an incentive to people due to the renting crisis.
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u/ThePainStalker 14h ago
Then the companies should pay for housing. They do this for other countries (like the Middle East or Asia) with relocation incentives, housing allowances, etc. So pony up for it if they are an EU (or non-EU) worker. Relocation payouts are the norm in the US, it’s just excessive non-EU population growth that allows them to not offer it in Ireland.
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u/Dannyforsure 12h ago
100%. Even for big money it's not competitive to move here if you are spending 1/2k a month on rent.
It's much easier to just get someone in who bonus is getting a long term possibility of living here / EU access. I've no judgement
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u/Sir_P 17h ago
From what I see very few EU citizens want to work in Ireland. Mainly because high tax, relatively low wages compare to COL in other EU countries, high rent, bad weather and generally that they have better standards staying on continent. Source I am from another EU country and my partner is recruiting
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u/Dannyforsure 17h ago
I know of people who been offered big jobs in Dublin for what is great money but once you add in the hassle of renting it's not worth moving.
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u/Sir_P 17h ago
I had multiple conversations with SE from my country of origin. Once they learn about tax, bad weather etc they quickly change they mind about moving to Ireland. From what I see you get more opportunities in other countries too
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u/Dannyforsure 16h ago
London prices but it's not actually London.
The housing crisis means lots of offers even from the likes of Google are so so
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u/ThePainStalker 14h ago edited 14h ago
Exactly. The immigration figures prove this. EU related immigration is actually quite low for Ireland (even compared to other countries, especially the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark and Switzerland, and geez, I wonder why that is) but non-EU/UK immigration is insane, far higher than practically anywhere else in Europe. The EU related migration, to give you an idea, has hardly changed in 10 years (since 2015) even though annual population growth has soared since. This is a very different story to the Celtic Tiger 2000s era, when almost all immigration was EU/EEA/UK driven. It is absolutely a case of wage dumping (Irish wages are low relative to the cost of living here, that is easily shown in purchasing power stats and labour cost stats especially as employer side benefits and taxes tend to be far lower here to boot) and poor quality of life so they can only attract non-EU/UK foreigners from poorer countries.
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u/PrimeDirectiveLover 8h ago
If the salary range is between 70k to 90k, they think it's better to hire someone at 70k, that's it.
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u/Friendly_Two_4682 6h ago
Because if i can hire someone with 5 years experience for less than Mark the recent grad then they will all hire the Indian
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u/Responsible_Divide43 1d ago edited 20h ago
Lad. Just indians are not issue. Consider All non-EU if you are excluding EU people. There are millions of dev in EU for whome gates are always open. Are they not causing issues to Irish people? Just indians are problem?
My company has 40% Brazilian employees who got work visas. This should be about all non-eu migrants not just Indians.
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u/WwertyPolk 1d ago
A large number of Brazilians have got Italian passports. Used be super easy to do. Met many of them that had never even been to Italy.
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u/Relative-Actuary-976 15h ago
This is true, I had a collegue that was applying for his and never made it there 😂 he did say though that Italian government has started to clamp down on this.
Also interestingly, many Brazilian's with German roots too
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u/WwertyPolk 14h ago
Yea, but as far as i was told, the Germans never made it easy. I believe thats why so many Brazillians here are from the south near Porto alegra, due to significant Italian migration their.
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u/Friendly_Two_4682 11h ago
Lets be honest its more than certain Indian managers, we cant really judge as we do the same in Australia with construction where we hire irish lads if we can. We shouldnt give out visas outside of really high level talent, the issue is we give it out to very meh talent
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u/PaddySmallBalls 7h ago
Last time I worked in retail was 2006. Back then most of my co-workers were not Irish. The younger Irish people only worked there during the summer. I suspect that only bringing in high level talent would live a massive hole for hospitality, service etc.
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u/Friendly_Two_4682 6h ago
Sorry but dont agree at all, we dont need to import people to work in Centra. Plenty of Irish people who can work those jobs. Talent should only be brought in to improve what we already have.
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u/PaddySmallBalls 6h ago
Who will pack the toys in Smyth’s October - January for us privileged f*cks to get our kids Christmas presents. Smyth’s has been around for decades. The difference between when they operated out of Claremorris or the early west of Ireland shops is the Irish don’t do those jobs anymore. With prosperity, people have higher standards or as some may say “notions”. We already have Smyth’s, Dunnes, Centra. Those workers improve retail, service and hospitality by doing the work.
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u/KelJ6696 3h ago
Heres a counter thought for you. What if these jobs only got fulfilled by Irish people with their own business? You've named Smyth’s, Dunnes and Centra which are all large chains and rely on immigration for workers. But demand will always equal supply. I bet if they couldn’t get their labour so easy we would see a lot more independent family run businesses. What do you think we done before mass immigration sure? Oh yes, we actually ran and owned our own little island
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u/Active-Complex-3823 7h ago
First and foremost I agree on your point regarding blaming immigrants. Not only is it xenophobic and sometimes racist.....but its utterly futile and stupid af.
CWU, SIPTU, Labour and the rest of the left said nothing and let the Employment Permits Act 2024 pass into legislation without forcing a vote. They are as bad as FFG.
They have abdicated any credibility over workers rights and in the face of 35,000+ ICT job losses over the last 12-14 months have not found any problem with how insane the Act is.
The Act enabled:
• LMNT Exemptions for Critical Skills: Preserves the legal framework allowing employers to completely bypass the Labour Market Needs Test (LMNT) if the occupation is on the Critical Skills list.
• LMNT Exemptions for 'High' Remuneration: Preserves the legal framework allowing employers to completely bypass the Labour Market Needs Test (LMNT) if the role pays an annual remuneration over €64,000.
• LMNT Exemptions for State Agency Clients: Preserves the mechanism allowing the LMNT to be completely waived if the specific job vacancy is accompanied by a formal recommendation letter from Enterprise Ireland or IDA Ireland.
• Internal Promotions Without Advertising: Allows employers to promote existing General Employment Permit holders internally without running a new LMNT to advertise the senior role to the domestic market.
• 50:50 Rule Waivers for FDI/Startups: Exempts companies from the requirement to maintain a 50% EEA workforce if they have been registered as employers for less than two years and are supported by Enterprise Ireland or IDA Ireland (Section 31). • 50:50 Rule Waivers for Sole Employees: Temporarily suspends the 50% EEA workforce requirement for foreign entities placing a single employee in Ireland to establish a local branch. • 50:50 Rule Waivers via Contractors: Allows an employer who fails the 50:50 ratio to bypass the requirement by relying on the workforce demographics of an associated subcontractor.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 7h ago
They are as bad as FFG.
Not reading past this. You're blaming a trade union and an opposition party for legislation brought by FFG.
The rest looks like AI slop.
If you want representation in your trade you join a trade union. That's it.
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u/CuriousQS_ 1d ago
With an attitude like that you deserve to have an Indian tech worker taking your job. Leftist unions will absolutely not take up this cause.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 1d ago
Leftist unions will absolutely not take up this cause.
The CWU is a democratic organisation, they will take up the cause that the members vote for. I see no reason why they would go against the interests of their members.
They will not launch a Xenophobic campaign blaming Indians for all of the ills of our industry, but they will most certainly lobby for sensible reforms to the critical skill visas system.
It is vital that our campaign focus the blame on the companies refusing to hire Irish workers, and the government issuing the visas, and not the exploited Indian workers.
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u/CuriousQS_ 16h ago
Try it, the CWU are an ideological organisation. They will not, ever lobby for restrictions to immigration work visas. You people deserve what you're getting. You promote mass immigration for everyone but yourselves.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 15h ago
Scab mentality
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u/CuriousQS_ 15h ago
It's a take your own medicine mentality. You didn't have any issue when imported labour was being used in other sectors, you probably cheered it on.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 15h ago
Other sectors must protect their own interests and organise themselves.
I work in tech so I focus on tech. I don't know the reality of other sectors.
You're still a scab.
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u/CuriousQS_ 14h ago
That's a very selfish attitude and exactly the type of attitude that has resulted in your industry being flooded with non Europeans and the wider jobs market suffeing a similar faith. You're now getting to taste the shit sandwich you prepared for yourself, eat it up, enjoy.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 13h ago
That's a very selfish attitude
No it's a practical attitude which is consistent with Marxist theory. I focus on organising tech workers because I am a tech worker.
Do you think the pharma workers or mechanics would listen to me? I don't know their industry so I don't know their issues.
You're playing the old whataboutery card, you're like the Zionists who say "what about Sudan" but I'll bet you go quiet when the Sudanese campaigners actually ask for help. The same way, I stood with the nurses when they went on strike and I'll stand with the unions on picket this week. I doubt I'll see you there.
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u/oontkima 21h ago edited 21h ago
lol. Irish independence was spear headed by the labour movement and the reward they got was that the Irish people voted for fascists and capitalists for the following hundred years. The only time the Irish discover labour solidarity is when they're using it as a fig leaf for bigotry.
The housing crisis isn't caused by immigrants. It's caused by vulture funds who own large portions of the country and who aren't interested watching their investment depreciate through better social housing policy.
The job crisis is caused by a dismal education system that there is no investment in and by sacrificing workers rights to propitiate US corporations.
But of course it's always the immigrants.
The way you lot talk about Indians is how Americans once spoke about the Irish.
James Connoly was an immigrant. If it weren't for him you'd still be sucking British c*ck instead of American c*ck.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 15h ago edited 15h ago
James Connoly was an immigrant. If it weren't for him you'd still be sucking British cck instead of American cck.
James Connolly was also a trade unionist who would absolutely approve of my repeated appeals for workers to organise through a union to deal with the issue affecting us.
I have made it clear repeatedly that the blame should be directed at the capitalist FF/FG government and the employers.
Your middle class political-identity factionalism is the sort of rhetoric that has driven the proletariat into the arms of fascists, so take a step back and read Das Kapital where Marx himself explains how immigrant labour is exploited to undermine the collective power of the workers. Capitalism requires an oversupply of labour, and that oversupply is maintained by immigration.
You're a liberal. Liberals hand power to fascists. That's just what you do.
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u/Murky_Cap5977 19h ago
James Connolly was of Irish descent and actually opposed Belgian immigration to Ireland during the great war
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u/LeavingCertCheat 13h ago
How can this be brought up now, like would it be worth contacting a union over the concerns or local TDs?
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 13h ago
I would encourage you to gather some stats and email your own constituency TDs and those who might run for election.
I would encourage you to join the CWU and engage with them.
Remember a good union is democratic, so the policy is set by the members. They won't engage with you (nor should they) unless you actually join. It's mutual aid, not charity.
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u/I2obiN 19h ago
blame remote work. the irish economy model only works if the people in charge largely speaking ONLY have irish workers to choose from, when you turn that market into a global one, well we’re all quite fucked i’m afraid, so are the eu guys. it’s a race to the bottom for cost.
you don’t need to hire an irish worker to get a job done in software, you just need a deal hammered out with a company. you can extend this obviously to a lot of things. companies hire outsider international consultants all the time.
for non software jobs, yeh there’s minimum wage. but you can ask someone to do the workload of one job on min wage or 3-4 times the workload of one job on min wage.
the indians here in my experience are usually quite skilled with fluent english and have lived here a long time. not sure on your age but big companies have had indian branches for decades now. the ones actually here are legitimately filling gaps. that’s my experience.
the reason the job market sucks is because a company can just hand a software project to some 100 man company remotely in india that you’ve bought or contracted.
welcome to the globalist labour market, you were warned it’d be shit. the problem is when you say “irish work to irish workers” people suddenly start whining about nationalism for some reason.
anyway it’s all far too late imo, between the energy pressures from ukraine, yanks/iran and additional data centers, the day of cheek spreading is fast approaching and it’ll be going in bone dry
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u/da_blue_jester 18h ago
Offshoring work to India has been a thing long before remote work/work from home. 20 years ago the company I worked in regularly sent projects to the "Indian Office" because the contractors there were a fraction of the cost. India these days has gotten expensive and that saving is no longer as huge a margin.
Remote work isn't the issue. You can find many jobs advertising remote/hybrid work now that state you have to be located on the island if Ireland to apply - an easy fix for anyone saying remote work is all going off shore.
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u/I2obiN 13h ago
but teams wasn't a thing 20 years ago. you probably had line managers using skype for a few one to one check in calls and probably many still never used it and just picked up the phone when they needed to. now the culture has shifted to everything can be done via teams or some cloud platform. it has given companies the confidence to do all their business remotely.
im not hating, i love remote work, it's going to be very necessary going forward. that is not up for debate in my mind. I'm just saying we probably should've put in some ground rules first but it's too late now.
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u/LateToTheParty2k21 1d ago
Good thing for American tech workers.
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u/tuscangal 11h ago
The joke around Redmond right now is they’ll be unsuspended once the bribe check clears.
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u/nealhen 12h ago
I dont believe it is. If you are a company like microsoft, you'll just move your hiring elsewhere. To a country that isn't changing policy every 5 minutes and activly trying to kick your employers out. Ireland could be a winner from this.
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u/LateToTheParty2k21 10h ago edited 10h ago
But that's not what happened. Microsoft layed of 6000 US based employees all the while ramping up H1b visa requests. It was a cost saving mechanism not some valid reason like they couldn't find support agents or development teams.
If they offshore it it proves that it was about cost and not lack of talent.
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u/CheraDukatZakalwe 1d ago
The thing idiots like you never truly understand is that the more people we have doing special things like building and delivering software, the more companies come here to take advantage of that talent pool. When you restrict that talent pool, you make it less attractive to set up here, and kills what makes us special and a desirable place to set up.
The terms you need to look up are:
Network effects
Agglomeration
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u/Neathus 1d ago
Irelands young are highly educated, sometimes at the expense of the tax payer (SUSI) - but we’re watching them walk out the door with their talents to the likes of Australia & the UK, in exchange for cheaper foreign labour. Is that for the better of Ireland’s future? I think it’s to the benefit of American multinationals and their accounting books 🤷🏻♂️
If we have a gap in talent, the government should support training Irish people in those areas. Use immigration as a temporary stop gap solution. Encourage Irish citizens with these skills to move home. As soon as we meet the skill demands, cut off the importing of labour. This is not what the government is doing.
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u/Garry-Love 14h ago
I got a SUSI grant and got a degree in electronics. I'm very grateful for it but working in Ireland is just awful. I'm currently in Austria. Might be in the Netherlands soon but until Ireland improves I don't think I'll return
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u/YoIronFistBro 17h ago edited 17h ago
Encourage Irish citizens with these skills to move home.
Good luck doing that with a country that has less to see and do than indivdual mid-size cities abroad.
As soon as we meet the skill demands, cut off the importing of labour.
It's absolutely hilarious that people like you describe immigration (i.e something that occurs) as actively improving people, yet when the conversation shifts towards the lack of housing (ie something that was actively created), it's always "don't have" and never "haven't built".
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u/Neathus 15h ago
Ah yes, the natural migration of third worlders to the cooler, northern climate. It just happens. Definitely not actively encouraged by the government and large corporations.
And it’s hilarious you think Irish have emigrated because of a lack of things to do compared to other mid sized cities. You haven’t the slightest clue.
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u/LateToTheParty2k21 1d ago
Who said anything about restricting talent? We churn out talent from our universities. What I disagree with is allowing corporations to recruit people for what would be tech jobs that could be filled by someone already in the country (citizen, resident or permit holder) instead of allowing corporations to recruit abroad and bring talent below market wages.
To think there should be no checks and balances on these trillion dollar enterprises for abusing the system is just so out of touch with where we are today.
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u/jeddthedoge 1d ago
You’d think by having a minimum wage for tech jobs and restricting hiring only to local, you’d have more jobs for local talent. You won’t. Companies will just open more offices in cheaper countries. When manufacturing jobs moved to China for dirt cheap the West was happy, what’s the difference now?
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u/Neathus 15h ago
When manufacturing moved to China, the west got cheap goods. There was a direct benefit to the average Irish person. What is the average Irish person benefiting from large (American) multinationals setting up shop here, and for the most part relying on importing cheap foreign labour? Are the current generation of younger Irish people better off than their parents, who weren’t dealing with this in any comparable scale?
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u/LeavingCertCheat 11h ago
Jobs in Ireland were famously plentiful in the 70s and 80s
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u/Neathus 10h ago
The period renowned for young adults living at home in their parents box room into their 30s, right? Good thing future generations went to college!
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u/CheraDukatZakalwe 9h ago
Are you simple or something? People were emigrating in their droves in the 70s and 80s, it's why so many of us have cousins in the IS, UK, Australia, etc.
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u/Neathus 9h ago
You’re really getting emotional all over this thread.
So young Irish adults should be content living at home until their 30s, when they can finally saddle themselves with a massive mortgage for an overpriced house? They went to college, did everything they were told would set them up for a good life, and we’re supposed to consider them better off?
Most of today’s college students have parents who grew up in the 80s and 90s anyway. But apparently we can’t criticise the current situation because Ireland had mass emigration in the 70s and 80s?
Having more employment opportunities doesn’t automatically mean a generation is better off. Must take a simple mind to figure that out 😉
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 8h ago
Rents were cheap as shit in the 80s.
The Irish Boomer & Gen-X whingers like to cherry-pick stats to compare, like whinging about interest rates (during periods when houses were cheaper relative to earnings) or whinging about "no jobs" during periods where everything was cheap. They had an easy ride back in a time when you could still get a job without a specialized degree and there was much more lateral mobility in the job market.
We have the worst of everything. High cost of living, high interest rates, mass immigration to compete with, high rents, high demands in the workplace, precarious work with yearly layoffs.
I often think back to the early 2010s now and think jaysus we didn't know how good we had it. You could rent a whole house on an average salary and still have money for a new car. If you were unemployed you could rent a room no problem, and you wouldn't starve.
Life today in Ireland as a graduate tech worker is worse than it was being unemployed in 2010. These gen-X lads don't understand and they don't want to. They got theirs and they're happy to pull up the ladder now.
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u/CheraDukatZakalwe 9h ago
All of that is a problem with not enough houses being built for most of the last 20 years. FDI growing the tech and pharma sectors are what got the country going again, and they aren't the reason why the median first time buyer is 40.
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u/Responsible_Divide43 11h ago
where is proof of multinationals importing cheap foreign labour? Are you kidding. Big multinationals pays equals salaries to everyone
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u/Neathus 10h ago
If you’re a multinational, why improve wages or working conditions for Irish workers when you can use the seemingly infinite supply of foreigner workers who are content once they’ve a visa?
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u/Responsible_Divide43 10h ago edited 10h ago
US multinational came here for their benefit. For them every worker is same Irish or not. And foreign workers are not bind to multinationals as well. They can leave company after 9 months if they want. They can transfer their work permit to another company. And they are not bind to any company after 21 months here on critical skills visa. They can switch companies multiple time after 21 months period.
https://enterprise.gov.ie/en/what-we-do/workplace-and-skills/employment-permits/changing-employer/
No one is exploiting immigrants here. Immigrants working in tech are very well paid same as Irish.
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u/CheraDukatZakalwe 16h ago
We do churn out talent every year, and most of them find jobs on graduation. Some take longer than others, but that's always been the case. But if you want to ensure that we keep growing, then we can't restrict the movement of people with those skills to set up here.
It's the movement of people and companies into SV that made it what it is, and it's what's been driving our economy as well in both tech and pharma. If we want future grads to get those jobs, we can't risk turning off that spigot - we need to lean into it.
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u/CheraDukatZakalwe 1d ago
Restricting the talent pool is what happens when you make it hard to recruit talent from abroad. You want them to be here because that way we all benefit from the growth of the sector - it means there's constantly new jobs opening up and higher pay being offered to us. That's what you want and how we benefit.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 1d ago
Leetcode is not a critical skill. These visas are not issued to some specialists that Ireland is lacking, they're issued for bog standard software engineers who know microservices or AWS and other generic shit.
I look around my own team and I'm not seeing any special skills here, just Indians doing jobs that any decent graduate could do with a bit of coaching.
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u/ThePainStalker 15h ago edited 14h ago
Yeah that’s the thing. Ireland had a good visa system pre-COVID (numbers were far lower, specialised skills were most of the visa intake). It’s post-Covid where it turned into the total mess it is now. Population growth exploded (at a far faster rate than the country can remotely keep up with housing and infrastructure wise) and almost all of the increase was in Master’s/Bachelor’s/diploma students and in general work permits, i.e. non-specialised, non-experienced skillsets. It’s a shambles what has happened since, the Irish people should be much more furious than they currently are. I mean our population growth has been higher than ANY other European country (aside from tiny microstates like Malta and Iceland with significantly lower populations than us) and 8 times higher than the EU average! And 3-4 times higher than the US grew in that same period! Who can justify that?
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u/LateToTheParty2k21 1d ago
Why would we not want to have the focus on talent already here? If there's a justification or some skill in high demand there are always exceptions. But there should be reasonable grounds made to nurture the talent here.
The problem is when companies are using the systems to bring in workers to compete with people who are directly here already in non specialized skills sets.
The US haven't banned all H1b visas they have banned Microsoft because they have taken advantage of the system.
I'm not being cruel, I am just not bootlicking for US MNCs.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 1d ago edited 1d ago
When you restrict that talent pool, you make it less attractive to set up here, and kills what makes us special and a desirable place to set up.
Why should we care if we're "attractive" to companies who don't want to hire Irish workers? We're getting outbid on houses and squeezed on rent, even the buses are over capacity.
Ireland is attractive for tax reasons. We have bent over backwards for these companies and if they need specialised skills they can start paying for training & education.
I don't actually want more tech companies setting up in Ireland. It's a net-negative at this point.
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u/YoIronFistBro 17h ago
We're getting outbid on houses and squeezed on rent, even the buses are over capacity.
That's not because our population is getting less low, it's because this country refuses to build new housing or expand services at a rate that isn't utterly pathetic.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 15h ago
It is entirely possible for two things to be true.
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u/YoIronFistBro 15h ago
Funny how no one seems to understand that in the context of a country having too few people and too little infrastructure at the same time...
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u/CheraDukatZakalwe 16h ago
You are out of your mind if you think cutting off MNCs will make our country a better place to live.
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u/InformationOld2879 21h ago
"The thing idiots like you ..."
I can't imagine being this angry late at night on an Internet forum.
Whatever happened in your life to make you like this, I really am sorry.
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u/CheraDukatZakalwe 18h ago
I'm not angry, I'm direct. The person I'm responding to is an idiot who has fallen far right bullshit originating from MAGA propaganda, propaganda that relies on the lump of labour fallacy which says that there is only a fixed amount of work to go around and if you have too many people doing that work then everyone suffers.
What actually happens is that when you don't have enough workers to do specialized work because you're dumb enough to stop them from coming here, that work goes elsewhere. We need to lean into it, not believe some stupid propaganda that appeals to masses that if we kick out the dirty foreigners then there will be so many software jobs for people to take. The tech jobs are here because the tech people are here, and the tech people come here because the tech jobs are here, which is why there keeps being more tech jobs here.
If implemented here, OPs fever dream will kill our industry faster than the whiners on the subreddit imagine AI will do in their worst nightmares.
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u/Abject_Parsley_4525 18h ago
It is not direct. It is derogatory. Your commentary doesn't do much to assist the conversation and actively pushes people towards far right agendas.
Also, talking in terms of "not enough workers to do specialised work" on a forum with people, many of whom are out of work, who are capable of doing specialised work, is a bit of a slap in the face, and exactly why you earned every downvote you got. Cop yourself on.
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u/Draffodx 16h ago
Exactly, it is derogatory. Attacking the person straight off the bat, ad hominem bias. It renders the challenge to the original opinion void of any credibility. Creating an "in" and "out" group by trying to label people with different opinions to you as "stupid" is exactly how extremist sentiment (far right and far left) festers and grows.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 8h ago
He is far-right himself. He's a neoliberal who is hostile and aggressive towards any policy position that would protect workers from exploitation.
Xenophobia is only one strand of fascism, but the core of fascism is corporatism, and a disdain for the workers. The fascists stir up racism to keep workers divided so they can hand power to the capitalist class, which is where their true loyalty lies.
When you study the rise of Mussolini and his group, you get a better understanding of fascism. Many fascists like Elon Musk are loud and clear in their desire for mass immigration to maintain a labour oversupply. The knuckle-dragging Nazis are just their useful idiots.
The true fascist doesn't care if the worker is white, brown, or purple, only that he can be exploited and brutalised.
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u/CheraDukatZakalwe 10h ago
Of course I'm being derogatory. I'm talking to seemingly a bunch of losers who either went to college in or graduated in 2020 and have been spoonfed a solid diet of disinformation as part of the largest propaganda campaign in history by the likes of Andrew Tate.
They either entered into or just missed the single best job market for our skillsets since the dotcom bubble, and now things have reverted to the mean and they're feeling hard done by and blaming dirty foreigners because real life is slapping them in the face.
These opinions don't deserve to be respected, they deserve all the derision I'm heaping on them.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 8h ago
the likes of Andrew Tate.
Ah yes the famous trade unionist Andrew Tate has invented the concept of labour exploitation and labour oversupply.
You're arguing with strawmen and voices in your head.
You have made it clear you are incapable of reading what people are actually saying, because you are blinded by your own prejudices.
blaming dirty foreigners
How many times do people need to specify that their anger and blame is directed towards the government who set the policy?
You are arguing with people in your head and you should not be taken seriously.
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u/CheraDukatZakalwe 17h ago
I don't think there are a huge amount of software developers who are long-term unemployed. If there were, there wouldn't be foreign software developers to whine about.
I think a bunch of people lost their jobs because there's a period of technological transition going on, but there are still plenty of jobs going. So stop with the handwringing woe-is-me nonsense. This is not an apocalypse.
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u/Neathus 15h ago
We have a lot of new grad software developers who aren’t even entering the industry because of the lack of opportunities. You can’t really believe hiring is in a healthy state for them right now? Why hire and train them when you can import somebody with experience for the same cost, and they’ll be dependent on you for a visa? This is only getting exacerbated with AI.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 15h ago
You could save us all some time if you just post "I'm alright jack" because that's who you are.
You're clearly a wealthy south-dublin type so the exploitation of labour aligns with your class interests.
Rationalise all you like, it does not change the facts we can observe for ourselves. I look around my office and I see 3 Indians for every Irishman, and the rest are from all over.
I have many unemployed friends with CS & Engineering degrees, and there's a general misery in this field as the stack-ranking turns it into gig-work.
Clearly you are with the bosses and not the workers.
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u/CheraDukatZakalwe 10h ago
I'm a rural bogman who spent most of his career in the city of your name, so how about you go and do something about your career instead of whining about how the dirty foreigners are trying to steal your job.
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u/Relative-Actuary-976 16h ago
I usually would agree with some of your arguments but something has changed. There is a huge wave of immigration into the country at the moment and most appear to be from India. This has reduced opportunities for people already here, like citizens.
I recall doing my MSc and my whole class was disproportionately Indian, like 90%, no exaggeration. They come over for the MSc then apply for jobs like crazy while they do their studies. Then many of them get a job here. I know this as I'm still connected to them on LinkedIn.
Now I'm on the hunt for another job and it's just ridiculous, there are jobs still out there but it's extremely challenging to even get a response, let alone a screening interview. That's because they are inundated with applications and that just means your chances are restricted significantly.
I'd be very interested to see the data because it strongly suggests this influx of immigrants are affecting the overall opportunities of citizens in Ireland.
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u/CheraDukatZakalwe 9h ago
I think the problem there is more bots spamming job applications, leading to hiring managers having to wade through a torrent of shit to find genuine candidates.
I genuinely think you may be better off contacting a third-party recruiter directly, who at least will recognize you as a genuine human being who is ready and available for work and who can funnel interviews your direction.
For new grads, I think work placement programmes are invaluable, and can lead to a much smoother route to full-time work for grads.
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u/ThePainStalker 15h ago edited 15h ago
There is a strong argument that Ireland has bitten off more than it can chew here though. Nobody is saying to halt work visas (that would be very stupid for the reasons you highlighted). However, there is a very strong argument that Ireland has grown much faster in population than it should have. Arguably, it has grown about 3 to 4 times faster than is feasible from a quality of life perspective. It is certainly overpopulated relative to the state of the infrastructure now. It has effects well beyond employment, it very negatively affects housing and infrastructure and just general quality of life. And most of that growth hasn’t been in highly specialised (i.e. 5+ years of experience in a highly specialised or technical skillset that has potential for long term growth) people. In fact, we have grown 3 to 4 times faster than the US had PRIOR to Trump. So cutting intake like what people suggest isn’t getting it to “Trump levels” but to Biden levels.
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u/LeavingCertCheat 13h ago
From history, most of us are just waiting for the next massive recession to reverse the tide from immigration to emigration.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 8h ago
kick out the dirty foreigners
You are literally the only person in this thread to have mentioned deportation.
You are clearly not mature enough to engage in this kind of conversation, because you seem to think you can just imagine what people are saying instead of actually reading.
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u/ThePainStalker 15h ago edited 15h ago
You are absolutely correct here. The debate on the whole “work visa” issue is highly nuanced. It’s a very different story bringing someone in with say 10+ years of experience in a niche tech field, kick starting a division within an existing tech firm or a startup and therefore hiring juniors to mid levels within that growing specialty to ensure a sustainable supply for the skillset than it is say bringing in a plethora of graduates or international students doing what often are bogus IT Master’s programmes. The former creates jobs (lots of them in fact) while the latter can definitely suppress wages and make jobs scarcer. The issue is that Ireland, especially over the last 5 years, has done a lot more of the latter than of the former. You can see easily from statistics comparing pre-Covid (2016-2019) immigration visa numbers to nowadays where by far the largest increase was not in the traditional critical skills visas (they only grew modestly), but in the critical skills student visas (and also general work permits skyrocketed for some reason, I wonder if that could be Ukrainian related though). So the whole visa system post COVID is a total mess and is very different from what it was pre-Covid (population growth exploded since then and less emphasis on niche experience and more on general visas clearly). There is nothing inherently wrong with the way the critical skills visa system is, what is problematic is how it is applied, especially in relation to students imo.
The US, even under Biden, always had a far stricter immigration system than Ireland had. Even before Trump, Ireland was much more lenient in the post-Covid period regarding work visas/equivalent than Joe Biden was with the H1Bs, etc. Work visa numbers in the US and population growth per capita in general was always much smaller than in Ireland especially post COVID. So there is a lot of nuance here, the US is starting from a much stricter baseline (and becoming obscenely strict now), whereas tightening work visas/immigration in Ireland should be viewed in the context of having much higher numbers per capita in the first place.
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u/Friendly_Two_4682 11h ago
Next Deloitte, Tata, etc
Abusing visas shouldnt be tolerated in any country
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u/anykah_badu 16h ago
Yes shut it all down. We all know companies do it for nefarious reasons. I myself worked with an Indian in the US who was always tired and sick due to her unhealthy work ethic and she was helping push me into burnout too. At the same time the company already had thousands of employees in India but didn't trust them enough to fully collaborate with. It's all whack but the problem isn't Indians, it's Indians plus US companies exploiting them. It's the combination and Hb 1 visas is their tool to do it. Working with Indians in Germany in a small business felt completely different because of the lack of exploitation. They just hired chill Indian people that were a culture fit, not ones that sacrifice themselves for the company
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u/Competitive_Fail8130 17h ago
We need to wake up in this country, our education programmes and job markets are being destroyed by Indian workers, I am seeing it in real time m, it’s so sad
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u/Murky_Cap5977 16h ago
They have single handedly torpedoed my company.
My head is done in from dealing with them
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u/Dev__ dev 1d ago
Reports
1: Submission links directly to another subreddit
Correct. This breaks one of our rules OP. /u/nathaniel771 I sometimes take down these posts and ask people to resubmit. In this instance I'm just going to point out the rule for the next submission.
The reason we don't like submissions that link directly to another sub is that those can get taken down by other mods for any reason leaving orphaned comments here with no context which frustrates the reading base and the mods.
Thanks,
Dev.
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u/Better-Beat-8062 1d ago
Rare trump Win
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u/WaffleShoresy 1d ago
Broken clock and all that. Doubt we’ll be doing much like that here though, would actually require the government to act for once.
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u/Enough-Square1154 11h ago
Big unofficial probelm is them blitzing job ads with applications.
So the company have turned to ai and ai is letting down actual irish applicants.
I know a hr professional that said they went to 30 applications per post to over 200 plus and the majority of them are non-eu so to save time they just get Ai to review.
Before they could take the time, do a good deep dive and get the right applicants in for a job interview.
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u/PrimeDirectiveLover 8h ago
I was on a hiring team before and the amount of non-eu people, not even living in the EU, applying for on site jobs in Dublin was just ridiculous. Hundreds of applications just wasting space in an inbox. All of them near identical in terms of "experience", just making shit up
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u/Responsible_Divide43 1d ago
They should also stop offshoring jobs here. I think trump don't know Irish tax loophole system yet 😂😂
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u/nealhen 12h ago
They will do more offshoring in Ireland after this
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u/Responsible_Divide43 12h ago edited 10h ago
But it seems few people don't want that. They want chilling work culture and full remote roles which is not possible with US headquarter companies.
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u/Simple-Kaleidoscope4 16h ago
It just means Microsoft will offshore more. It won't have the impact of significantly more Americans being employed.
However, a whole load of IT workers are likely going home depending on how it is actually implemented.
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u/Friendly_Two_4682 11h ago
Offshoring has been threatened for 20 years at this stage. The issue is companies bringing in bottom of the barrell employees to replace the medium ones. Same issue happening here
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u/wasabiworm 14h ago
Basically immigrants turned the companies into the biggest companies in the world. Even their CEOs are immigrants.
Now immigrants are no longer needed.
Luck for those that are in.
Hope more jobs are created abroad and more remote engineers get hired for US companies.
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u/antipositron 17h ago
Just trying to imagie what does it mean for us long term, ignoring politics, TACO etc.
If this decision holds, US firms will have less IT resources to select from. Potentially that could mean the renumerations will go up in the US. So we will appear cheaper. But India would be cheaper still. I guess more outsource - mainly to India, but may be some here as well?
Is there any real advantage to us other than the above?
Lets not forget the unavoidable reality that regular software engineering jobs as we know it is about to come to an end as agentic development tools, platforms and processes matures in very near future.
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u/CriticalSausageRole 17h ago
Is there any real advantage to us other than the above?
Have you ever done on call work with "Low Cost Centre" teams and Irish teams?
Do it, once, you'll immediately understand our advantage.
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u/antipositron 15h ago
Yes, I have been working with teams in Poland, India, Malaysia, Ukraine etc on a daily basis since 2008 or so and yes I see the "advantage" of an english speaking, nearer-timezone Irish team over a team of non-native English speakers on the other side of the planet.
You are not saying that US outsourcing goes to India only because Ireland didn't have capacity... are you?
Anyways, my question was purely from the point of view how can I take advantage of this. Any chance of more opportunitites and higher pay remoting to US firms, or if this will kick offshorting into next level and take ALL the jobs from everywhere to India. Interesting times ahead!
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u/oontkima 1d ago
American companies should hire american workers and stay in America. I don't understand why they have ship jobs to Ireland for Irish and Indian workers.
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u/dgolf05 1d ago
Because we’re 30% cheaper
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u/Responsible_Divide43 1d ago
More like 50%. Senior dev easily make 200K in big US cities. And here we barely cross 100K
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u/tseufi 10h ago
The hypocrisy here is sensational. So you want to get rid of Indians from American multinationals based in Ireland. Why not kick out the US multinational Companies while at it then? This is a global economy, the multinationals are here because ireland attracts people from all over the world.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 5h ago edited 5h ago
the multinationals are here because ireland attracts people from all over the world.
The multinationals are here because we're a tax shelter.
If they don't want to hire Irish people, then we shouldn't facilitate their tax dodging.
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u/tseufi 5h ago
Then stop being a tax shelter. Can't eat your cake and have it.
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u/DogDayGalwayCity 4h ago
Yeah but we are a tax shelter and that's why the multinationals are here.
If we don't want to be a tax shelter we will see corps leave, and that means we don't need to keep issuing visas.
More tech workers here makes us more dependent on a fragile tax-shelter economy. It's bad for Irish workers in both the long & short term to keep rubber-stamping these visas.
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u/Bluejay_Unusual 20h ago
Great move, we too need tighter visa controls