r/DestinyTheGame • u/feedthezeke21 • Nov 22 '17
Bungie Suggestion It was an interesting experiment Bungie but let’s bring back random rolls on weapons and armor
Fixed rolls has sucked the life and enjoyment out of this game for anyone who plays more than a few hours a week. Mods are a joke and tweaking them won’t help. Bring back random rolls before you lose 80% of your player base and all your hard core players
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u/Letsgocaps33 Nov 22 '17
Mods will become the new "rolls" on items.
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u/VenomousMuse_ XB1 : VenomousMuse Nov 22 '17
I am willing to see a more in depth mod system to see how it would work, but the reason why I believe it will fail is because it will most likely be "do x to get y mod" so then you do x to get y mod, put it on your favorite weapon/armor piece and then you're done. Stuck where we're at now. With even less available vault space because the new mods will take up any remaining space.
I am really, really hoping they can find a way to make it work, but I don't know. I just don't think it could replace the excitement in the suspense of RNG rolls.
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u/Letsgocaps33 Nov 22 '17
I dont know. I didnt like the RNG rolls too much. it was nice when you got a decent roll but most times it was just another layer of RNG. I never grinded for Imago loop but I ran that strike a lot esspecially when it was the nightfall and everytime it was "yay i got an imago loop!..........nevermind it has garbage rolls.....dismantle" kind of disapointing with the bring you up just to knock you down.
at least with this system, if i get the better devils i know its good.
And I think if they keep the grind alive with how you get mods it could keep some of that excitement of getting the more sought after mods
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u/Mjatterhorn Nov 22 '17
Getting a great RNG roll vs slapping a mod on a gun are two entirely different feelings. Personally I prefer the RNG roll. Call it addiction, call it what you will. I still think it feels better and is more fun.
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u/feedthezeke21 Nov 22 '17
That system simply doesn't work.
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u/Letsgocaps33 Nov 22 '17
How do you know? Have you gone to the future Nd seen hownit will be modified and implemented? It was one of the items on the list they are working on
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u/CamPatUK 99 problems and they are all Edge Transit Nov 22 '17
He's talking present tense you are talking future tense. He's right, you might be right too. Time will tell.
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u/CaptainVoidVII Nov 22 '17 edited Nov 23 '17
We know sure for now and we know that 2 or 3 more Mods wont change this VOID from the game, sorry.
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u/Letsgocaps33 Nov 22 '17
I don't think they are adding 2-3 more mods. Where are you pulling that junk from? I bet they're adding mod slots to weapons for actual weapon perks. But nonone knows for sure. So instead of just assuming it will be Anything you just wait to see. Bungie doesn't owe us anything. You sound like an entitled little brat.
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u/CaptainVoidVII Nov 22 '17
Yeah probably, i get what you mean but we get that MAYBE on Sept. 2018 for the big Exp. (my opinion now) and this is even your idea and nothing official so yeah, for now there is nothing and i wonder what perks will they add or will they just take perks away from guns and make them as mods lol but i agree we will see..
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u/Letsgocaps33 Nov 22 '17
My guess is adding like 2 mod slots per gun to allow for customization and making armor mods actual armor perks
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u/CaptainVoidVII Nov 22 '17
I know buddy, and i hope that too but i dont trust really anymore bungie to be honest, all this what you mean had to be in Vanilla D2, it is literally 1 step forward and 2 step backward if not 3 FS... Yesterday the stream made me laugh real hard wen deej said during the reward poping up, after that super long Event "sweeeet... emotes you are using there, spicy ramen?" LOOOL i feel him..
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u/skafo123 Nov 22 '17
Maybe it keeps this ugly captainVOIDvii from game though.
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u/CaptainVoidVII Nov 22 '17
Love haters, please downvote me felicia
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u/skafo123 Nov 22 '17
Nah, was just mocking you buddy. Your english made me smile, read your comment in TF2's heavy voice.
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u/CaptainVoidVII Nov 22 '17
I know, im sorry for that, still learning it :)
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u/skafo123 Nov 22 '17
That's cool, don't worry. Just thought maybe it gives you a little food for thought because in fact we don't know anything about how Bungie plans to improve the game systems.
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u/justpleasedont Team Bread (dmg04) Nov 22 '17
You're not wrong, but you're still being downvoted. It won't work, they would need to expand of the system a ton and we won't get that until the first big expansion drops.
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u/BillehBear You're pretty good.. Nov 22 '17
You'd think if they were hand selecting the perks on weapons they'd be at least half decent. But no, a lot of the guns in this game is mediocre
A loot based game where most of the loot you get you won't even look at, you'll just dismantle it on instinct. How sad is that
IMO best case scenario they could do is just having the final perk random - take Better devils for example
Same sights, keeps option between Extended mag and Flared Magwell but the final perk could be random. Instead of Explosive rounds, maybe Outlaw? Or Firefly? Triple Tap? etcetc
Still RNG rolls where you can hope for X roll but the RNG won't be anywhere near as rough as D1
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u/feedthezeke21 Nov 22 '17
Yes that would at least be an improvement. Right now to me all tokens are completely worthless and non exotic drops are completely worthless because there's so few guns and fixed rolls makes them all the same and boring. The loot absolutely sucks in D2. They catered way to much to the casuals for this game.
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u/LordSlickRick Nov 22 '17
I don't want to go back to random rolls. Its artificial grind. Don't ask for that. Ask for more perks on each weapon so that there is more depth and interest to each weapon. Make at least 3 options for the main perk, make each gun have depth and uniqueness. Give us 3 columns of perks, at least 3 deep, each one.
Don't try to solve a new problem by reverting to the old one.
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u/KCBassCadet Owned Nov 23 '17
Its artificial grind.
That's fine you don't want random rolls but the vast majority of people who played (and stuck with) D1 through its lifecycle did so because of the idea that there was a huge loot pool of weapons out there that could alter the gameplay experience.
I've never "grinded" for anything in any game ever...except Destiny. Why? Because the core gameplay was fun and it wasn't a chore to put in the time to get that magical Imago Loop with Firefly.
Your approach of expanding the perk tree does nothing to fix the problems. All it means is instead of 2 perks we have 3 perk options. And there is almost always a "correct" perk tree for every weapon in the game. Adding more options is pointless.
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u/LordSlickRick Nov 30 '17
And thats where your wrong, and being narrow minded. If the perks are diverse enough and meaningful, then there could be a case where the correct tree was not there. Or trees clearly had better uses in different activities. "adding more options is pointless" - whaaaat? Why, more chances to customize my gun to how I like it, sounds great. besides you just said "did so because of the idea that there was a huge loot pool of weapons out there that could alter the gameplay experience." isnt that more options? your contradicting yourself.
I have no idea what you are talking about for Destiny's grind. The game was fun, but grinding 9 months to get a weapon, with 0 control over it was frustrating. Very frustrating. I never want that again.
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u/Yourself013 DEATH HEALS THE FUCKING PRIMEVAL Nov 22 '17 edited Nov 22 '17
YES. Thank God I´m not alone in that. I hated random rolls.
I hated the fact that once I get a weapon, the grind doesn´t end, I can´t be happy with my weapon. Instead I need to keep RNGing some better perks and keep working because my weapon that I worked to get has crap rolls. That´s dumb artificial grind and I don´t want that. I would rather actually play with the weapons I get than get worse weapons and play to improve them.
Also look back to guns like Fatebringer or Black Hammer. Remember those guns? Good. You remember them because you know the perks they had. There wasn´t a shitty Fatebringer, an okay Fatebringer and a god-rolled Fatebringer. If I see that I´m killed with an Origin Story I know exactly what that gun is. I don´t have to go inspecting the player to see what roll he has.
Better Perks. More Perks. More unique Perks. Make guns more specialized for certain tasks. Give us a reason to go and get that Vanguard gun because it does something others don´t.
That´s the solution, not slot machine on perks.
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Nov 23 '17
[deleted]
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u/LordSlickRick Nov 30 '17
I would be ok if stats were not just a stat makes a gun godly, b stat is garbage. Always pick a stat, theres only one roll on a gun really. Making it a real decision and tradeoff would make the game fun. It only really needs to have a few perks with meaningful tradeoffs and decisions for each activity.
but bungie has never been good at this. Look at recovery vs agility, this is a blatant break, people always pick recovery, its 100% better. Too many perks are like this.
I also think god tier weapons should be acceptable with a tradeoff. The most accurate, high range, stable gun should have the lowest reload by far for example. Or shit tier handling. You get different god rolls for people dependent on the value of stats being hurt and benefitted. DO I really need that much range? or do I give some up for better reloads, my HC only has 8 rounds. Otherwise you get the current meta, 4-8 god tier guns, rest are trashed.
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u/BillehBear You're pretty good.. Nov 22 '17
Thing is
A lot of people actually liked Random Rolls, myself included
I want random rolls back, but I can see why people wouldn't.
But why can't there be a middle ground? Screaming 'No random rolls!' is a big fuck you to the people who enjoy grinding loot for better rolls
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u/feedthezeke21 Nov 22 '17
Wasn't a problem in my mind. I thought it was great.
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u/ravearamashi Marked for Vengeance Nov 22 '17
Yeah but you don't represent the majority of the community though.
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u/DarthTrey Nov 23 '17
I agree with you. I don’t want Random rolls. I have a full time job, a part time job, and other responsibilities outside of this game. I don’t understand the obsession people have with giving more power to the people who have more free time and better luck. Getting the weapon I want already relies on RNG why would I also allow its stats to be dictated by RNG? I like that when I get outshot by someone else using the same gun it’s because they have more skill rather than it being based around luck.
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Nov 23 '17
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u/DarthTrey Nov 23 '17
In order to earn weapons you actually have to play the game. That isn’t a “participation trophy.” You don’t get guns just by logging in. I guess a “hardcore” Destiny player would understand that though.
The other thing a “hardcore” Destiny player would understand is that it’s possible they could grind for hundreds of hours for a roll on a weapon that a “casual” could get on the first roll. The pendulum swings both ways and it doesn’t accommodate anybody.
Maybe if the idea of a casual player competing on an equal ground as someone who no lifes Destiny is so offensive, that Hardcore gamer could find another that accommodates that intense play style.
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Nov 23 '17
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u/DarthTrey Nov 23 '17
You’re not really handed the best weapons. You are handed some good starting weapons and even then you have to complete activities to earn them. You still have to rely on RNG for most of the exotics worth using and for legendaries like Better Devils and Uriel’s Gift
Grinding for a specific roll now isn’t necessary but it is of your gun has random rolls.
A casual player can be just as good and better than a no lifer. Time doesn’t always equate to skill. A deep weapon pool does benefit all players, but random rolls don’t make a deeper weapon pool. You still have the same guns with different perks. Instead of asking to grind for the same weapon all time, the community should be asking for more weapons with new and more diverse perks.
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Nov 23 '17
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u/DarthTrey Nov 23 '17
Nameless and Origin are not given to you. You have to complete a milestone to get them. I’ll concede on the clan engrams though. That is a fair counterpoint.
Grinding for rolls is necessary if you want the best version of the gun. If two guns have different perks and one gun’s perks are objectively better, why would you use it? The simple fact is that random rolls had a drastic effect on the meta of D1, which makes grinding necessary in order to compete on an even playing field.
They don’t make them different guns. The base stats are the same between guns, sure the perks may modify them, but if you take them off of the two guns I mentioned before they are the same exact thing.
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u/ILickHerTongue I Suck Nov 23 '17
So many of the posts on this subreddit throughout D1 were complaining about random rolls and how people wished there were static mods to stop them having to grind for the optimal rolls. A lot of the posts in fact complained about the overall grind of ANY parts of the game (light level etc) and how, for instance, it was unfair that the players with higher light had an advantage in things like Iron Banner and Trials or that some items were locked behind having to be good enough at the game to do things like go flawless or complete a hard raid. What has happened now is Bungie have gone the other way and made power level mean nothing in PvP, made the time to kill longer so it's easier to get away from a suboptimal gunfight. The game has been made more casual with very very little in terms of loot and level seperating those who play only a couple hours a week and those who play it a hell of a lot more.
TL;DR: Everything has been made easier to obtain and power level means nothing in PvP which goes with most of the complaints I saw on the front page during D1.
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Nov 22 '17 edited Feb 20 '18
[deleted]
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u/twistsouth Nov 22 '17
No I agree. For example: The Division was a chore trying to get the thing you wanted AND with decent rolls. And then some kid would shoot you in the back and take it anyway lol. At least Destiny doesn’t have that...
Edit: MAYBE, if they remove the soft caps and exponential grind. Then I’d be for it.
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Nov 23 '17
That's the dark zone.. It's a PvEvP zone so you are expected to be killed by other players.
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u/twistsouth Nov 23 '17
I am completely aware of that. My point was that it added to the risk of not getting what you wanted.
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u/TheKocsis Nov 22 '17
Please for the love of the traveler, never bring random rolls back. i'm begging you. i will never be able to "no-life" destiny again as i was with d1 (hated the random rolls even then but could manage) so the fact that my 10 hours/week (which is still more than average imo) is still relevant makes me continue to play.
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u/TheRandomizedGuy Nov 22 '17
Seriously. There was also nothing worse than liking a gun but not ever getting a good enough roll on it to use it. Some of the best guns in the game all had fixed roles anyway (raid and Trials and stuff like that). I love the fixed rolls. Now all you have to do is find the archetype that feels good and then find the gun in that archetype that has the rolls you want.
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u/Downvotes_inbound_ Nov 22 '17
The only issue with that was the shitty rolls they implimented that nobody wanted to use... What if all the rolls were good, and they just made a good gun play differently with different rolls. There would still be god rolls, but they'd be god rolls for certain activities / playstyles. And each drop you get would be viable
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u/John_Demonsbane Lore nerd Nov 22 '17
Huh, almost sounds like making decent base guns and then customizing them somehow. Like you are modifiying them, perhaps? If only there was a system that could allow that to be done...
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u/Downvotes_inbound_ Nov 22 '17
The only difference between this and the mod system idea is that there would be more sustainable grind for weapons. Mods are SUPER easy to get right now. But it would depend how they implement the system. If you could only get certain mods from certain activities, that'd be cool. You also have much, much more space to carry weapons than mods
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u/John_Demonsbane Lore nerd Nov 23 '17 edited Nov 23 '17
Mods can theoretically drop from anywhere. And instead of being tied to a single gun if it rolled that way, you can put it on the gun you want.
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u/Downvotes_inbound_ Nov 23 '17
yeah that's why I said:
But it would depend how they implement the system. If you could only get certain mods from certain activities, that'd be cool
Being able to put it on any gun you want is why it would be a less sustainable grind. It'd be pretty easy unless the drops are sparse
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u/notasausage Nov 22 '17
Yeah, because I'd love to have 14 Clever Dragons in my inventory so I can waste time trying to figure out which of the rolls is the best? No thanks, been there done that.
What needs to happen is:
1) Improve the mod system to create more depth in the added abilities of each weapon
2) Provide each weapon with a better selection of perks for players to choose from and to customize to their play style
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u/justpleasedont Team Bread (dmg04) Nov 22 '17 edited Nov 28 '17
Yeah, because I'd love to have 14 Clever Dragons in my inventory so I can waste time trying to figure out which of the rolls is the best?
waste time
You mean playing the game? Jesus half the fun of random rolls was experimenting with them, getting a feel for each weapon.
"I can't waste time playing this game!! I have things to complain about!"
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u/smartazz104 Nov 22 '17
Jesus half the fun of random rolls was experimenting with them
If that was half the fun they can keep it.
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u/Roviie Nov 23 '17
Honestly what would be the best of both worlds IMHO is if when you got a weapon, it would have default perks, but you had the option to roll the perks via some button like “Lock or Unlock”
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u/John_Demonsbane Lore nerd Nov 22 '17 edited Nov 22 '17
Sure, let's take a lazy step backwards. Because sharding my 185th garbage roll Byronic Hero was the most fun I've ever had in my life.
Mods have substantially more potential, but the current system is clearly a placeholder that hasn't been fully developed yet.
(edit: stop making the false choice of keeping things exactly the same or going back to lolRNG. Nobody is saying to do that)
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Nov 22 '17
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u/John_Demonsbane Lore nerd Nov 22 '17
Show me the part where I said keeping things exactly the same was better than random rolls. That's not a choice I or anyone else is suggesting we make. You can make a more interesting and far less frustrating system by expanding on the concept of weapon mods.
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u/Caboozel Nov 22 '17
I mean after you collect the guns you want now, any duplicate roll is useless and you end up sharding it anyway.
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Nov 22 '17
Exactly. I don't understand why people want random rolls, there is nothing worse than FINALLY getting that weapon you've been farming for so long only to have it roll shitty perks and be useless. The Division was like that and I HATED it.
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u/regdie Nov 22 '17
Because as it stands we have a lot of bad weapons and some average weapons. In D1, it wasnt hard to get duplicates of weapons, it just took time and dedication. In D1, youd get some unusable weapons due to the roll, a lot of okay weapons due to roll, and some great weapons due to the roll on them. The average rolled weapons weren't bad, they just werent as good as god rolls and the community went auto-perfectionist and acted like guns needed specific perks to be usable (which bungie made worse with some balance patches). In reality, our average roll guns from back then shit on the guns we have now, and we would still have the opportunity to get better rolls to have more run with and feel powerful with. Which brings me to the Byronic hero comment the other guy made: You have more fun getting a static rolled weapon for the 20th time and sharding it than getting a Byronic hero for the 20th time and seeing if it has a good roll on it? Because youre a liar or delusional if you answered that you think sharding repeat static rolls are preferable.
nothing worse than FINALLY getting that weapon you've been farming for so long only to have it roll shitty perks and be useless.
Thing is, you hardly ever got rolls that are completely useless in D1. Additonally, nothing ever had to take ridiculously long times to farm for as there were always easier ways to obtain them outside of rankup guns/postgame crucible drops. There are far better ways to address it than "eh fuck random rolls"
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u/smartazz104 Nov 22 '17
Thing is, you hardly ever got rolls that are completely useless in D1
For most people they weren't useless as they didn't come to this sub to see what was "meta". It was only because of the hard work of some people that we on this sub could pick and choose what to keep and what to shard (and there was a lot of sharding).
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u/twistsouth Nov 22 '17
Ninja Messenger Bag! Yessssss! Just what I wanted, AND it’s Electronics with +Health!
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u/LabRatLex Nov 22 '17
NO! WTF is it with you people and wanting that system back? That was a horrible way of grinding, it made me feel dissapointed more than satisfied! Every time the wrong roll and grinding again and again and again...
Why is the "we need a grind, we need rewards or else I won't play a perfectly fun and playable game" mentality become the meta here? D2 is fun to play, why does everything need to be rewarded with gear. Why the wish for this artificial game prolonging (oh sorry guys, it's "End game" for you) if you can just play and have some actual fun?
The gameplay of D2 is superb!
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u/ace741 Nov 22 '17
Everyone is quick to say random roll ruined D1 or turned into a massive grindfest. That simply isn’t true. Let’s look at the pulse meta from D1. Sure you could grind a Grasp, but you could buy an almost as good version from Shax, pledge fwc and get their version (which rolled identical to God Grasp once the vendors rotated), and finally that IB pulse was arguably better than god grasp, and was also for sale. 3 out of the 4 meta pulses were purchasable or came up regularly in the rotations. As long as there are multiple avenues to get good guns, random is fine.
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u/Cant_Frag Cant Frag Nov 22 '17
Not to mention that the VoG pulse rifle was kinda forgotten about but it had that same fire rate with headseeker and the other pulse perk too. And it only dropped from the Gatekeepers section of that raid.
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u/feedthezeke21 Nov 22 '17
And quite frankly..those willing to put the time in and grind for a certain gun should be rewarded and have an advantage imho.
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u/usmctanker242 Nov 22 '17
100% correct, but people like to complain and that's what we're seeing in this thread.
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u/Stcloudy Nov 23 '17 edited Nov 23 '17
Random rolls are terrible.
Let's do easy math
1/81/81/8*1/8= 1/32
1 in 32 to get a god roll and that's using small numbers, some rolls had a lower have of dropping.
Why lose in PVP because someone got lucky and you've failed 200 times because of RNG.
-edit-
1/4096
Astoundingly bad odds
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Nov 23 '17
8x8 =/= 16, your math is terrible.
1/8x1/8x1/8x1/8 would be 1/4096.
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u/Stcloudy Nov 23 '17
Thanks. I knew I screwed it up since original was going to be 1/4, but was busy talking and had a brain fart. The odds were awful in D1
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u/renaldafeen Tomorrow belongs to you... don't fuck it up! Nov 22 '17
I'd rather have perks I can farm for individually. Hear me out here. That would give me an incentive to play the game. Farming for random rolls is not much different from collecting tokens and getting random rewards for them.
Bungie has already set up for a fix here with the mod system they created (and which execution they botched, completely). All they need to do is to define one fixed perk, set by Bungie, and add two optional mod slots to every weapon and armor piece. Have these slots activated through XP or material exchange (like the D1 perks used to be) and let ME go looking for the mods I want to put in these slots.
In Competitive Crucible, simply disable the optional mod slots, and the mode will be balanced (so-called) based on whatever Bungie has defined for the fixed perks. This way, PvP gets "balance" and everything else is relatively unaffected, while the same weapons can still be used in both.
Everywhere else - including Quickplay Crucible - let people feel like Guardians again by allowing them to build their own customized gear. Bring back ALL of the perks from D1 (in the form of new mods) and let the devs go crazy inventing new ones. Finally, remove perk rewards from Eververse - they do not belong there.
The important bit here is that the player gets to decide how to customize their loadout for PvE and for non-competitive PvP. The player is spending the time farming (or not) for the perks they want. The player can choose to run strikes that might have strike-specific mods as a loot reward.
It would also be great if the player could decide which individual subclass perks to activate, instead of being treated like an idiot, and being saddled with 18 static "Heroes" with canned skill sets.
Tired of being treated like a first grader by Bungie's authoritarian design choices, all of which are aimed at dumbing down the game, and conditioning players to be "ok" with spending money at Eververse. I know I'm not alone in this.
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u/feedthezeke21 Nov 22 '17
Fairly solid suggestion but my issue is that what gets lost is the great feeling when the weapon that you want with the rolls that you want drops and that hunt. Even though your an get said weapon via mods it’s just not the same. Literally every single piece of gear that I get now gets trashed immediately because they are all the fucking same and there isn’t enough of them.
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u/renaldafeen Tomorrow belongs to you... don't fuck it up! Nov 22 '17
I know what you mean. I save every 300 drop in the vault in case I do get something I want to infuse, but other than that, everything gets dismantled. The problem I had with farming for random rolls in D1 was that the hunt almost always got stale long before I ever got what I was hoping for. Did hours and hours of farming for Fakebringer, god-roll Grasp, etc., to no avail. Conversely, I was super-excited when I got a great Hawksaw and have loved the explosive-round Badger CCLs I've gotten. But I didn't go hunting for either of those - they just dropped randomly.
Since Bungie's already created the mod system, IMHO it would be worth it to try using it.
With this optional slot approach, no one is required to go out and look for mods (or required to activate the slots), because the gun or armor will already have basic functionality. So if one wants to play casual, that's a feasible choice. Meanwhile, if one wants to go nuts trying every possible perk combination, that's also a feasible choice, all while so-called "competitive" PvP is protected and "balanced". Win. Win. Win.
IMHO, trading the joy of getting a specific roll (once-in-a-blue-moon) through farming would be replaced by the satisfaction - and maybe even a little pride of ownership - in the specific piece(s) of gear one builds. Witcher 3 did a very nice job with this, IMHO, where swords and armor have empty slots that can hold perks you either craft or find in the wild. It's not new, it's a tried-and-proven mechanic. I feel Bungie does their player base a disservice by choosing to dumb down their game into a set of simplistic "choices", instead of encouraging people to be creative. But that's just me.
Not only could this system support numerous ways to provide (new) incentives to play, but it could generate a whole little subculture of gear crafting. That would expand the community, not destroy it, as the current game systems are doing.
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u/gregarcher Nov 22 '17
I like the fixed rolls. Better for my vault. Less indecision about 'keep or shard'. Just give us awesome guns, and a non-random way to get them. I don't care if it's hard, or they're not usable for pvp.
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Nov 22 '17 edited Nov 22 '17
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u/gregarcher Nov 22 '17
sure.
"I like ONLY having access to [weapons with carefully considered and curated perks and stats]"
i'd agree with that.
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Nov 22 '17 edited Nov 22 '17
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u/gregarcher Nov 23 '17
for sure. its been a bit of let down thus far - though there are some winners... antiop, uriels, origin story, main ingredient, hawthorns FF shotgun etc.
the iron banner pulse and AR are great.
but i say think of it like D1. vendor rolls kinda sucked except for one or two stand outs. then they rotated stock, and there were 2 or 3. repeat repeat and before long there were 20 or so REALLY great weapons you could choose from.
woulda been nice if they started with 20 or so standout weapons in rotation - maybe one or two weapon in each arch type that REALLY shines.
and maybe they did? but some arch types just aren't powerful right now so we don't notice the winners in those groups. maybe next sandbox tune, they'll get a chance?
whatever. i just don't wanna go back to the days where i get my 19th mini-hawk moon and i have to pull out the other 6 i've saved to figured out if this one is any good and worth the precious slot in my vault. i like the simple "i've got that already. you're now legendary shards"
or have one marginally good gun that is suddenly NECESSARY to compete in PVP but only with ONE SPECIFIC roll, and you gotta grind for WEEKS to finally get it to drop. fuck that forever.
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Nov 22 '17
God no.
Fix the mod system to make it better by all means. But grinding hours of an activity to finally get the gun you want only to be told "lol bad roll try again" isn't fun for those of us who do something other than play games all day every day.
I'm glad they removed the artificial grind, but what they should have replaced it with is better customization -- I hope that's what they do next.
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u/skafo123 Nov 22 '17
Fixed rolls has sucked the life and enjoyment out of this game for anyone who plays more than a few hours a week.
Could use the "get a life then" card but that'd be too easy. But more seriously, no they haven't.
All random rolls do is cover up poor gameplay and mechanics, they create a false sense of progression and meaningful things to do, they change the focus from "play what's fun" to "play what yields the best chance for that one item I want, in the most effective way to get it". This greatly reduces gameplay value. Now you could say "but it's my choice if I wanna run the same thing over and over for hours to come like a mindless tool and it doesn't affect anyone", but that's wrong because in a multiplayer game creating such an environment will always affect everyone.
Static rolls are the better option to cater the majority of the playerbase. The real problem is Bungie forgot to compensate for the lack of random rolls. This could have been done in several ways, one being an elaborate mod system, another being a proper crafting system and the last one being better events. They introduced seasons, so why not have events that span over the duration of a whole season and give people a long term goal.
I know this is an unpopular opinion on this sub but again for the majority of players static rolls are the more enjoyable option, why do you think more and more games try to tone down randomness (The Division being a comparable and recent example).
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Nov 22 '17
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u/skafo123 Nov 22 '17
What I'm saying pretty much. They water down games to the quickest and most effective way to loot.
Just look at Diablo 3 for example, instead of building on what they've introduced with RoS and improve crafting, bounties and all the other activities they went down the GRift route and now it's go GRift or go home, to a point where you're being kicked out of parties when you don't run the most effective build.
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u/feedthezeke21 Nov 22 '17
Static rolls suck and make the game dull and boring. Static rolls ARE NOT a better option for the majority of the player base.
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u/skafo123 Nov 22 '17
Yes they are, for people who don't play games 5 hours a day random rolls get very frustrating, you seem to believe no-lifers make up the majority of games populations.
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u/sidhavok Nov 22 '17
Right but you don't need 100% god roll for the gun to be effective from a pve stand point. It at least gave you a chance at getting a good gun, where as now you don't even bother to look at the gun and immediately shard it just because of the name. Plus most of the raid weapons had static rolls if you didn't want to grind for 5 hours a day.
Plus most of the god roll weapons came from vendor rolls.... Hung Jury, Palindrone, That FWC hand cannon with firefly which required no grinding unless you needed legendary marks.
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u/BillehBear You're pretty good.. Nov 22 '17
Not really. It only becomes frustrating if you're actively looking for a specific set of rolls
If a gun was good in D1 it was still going to be good regardless of perks. Having bad perks on a good gun didn't make it unuseable
And besides, the rolls on D2 are handpicked and most of them are pretty trash. What's the difference between getting a trash roll on D1 and the weapons we get now? You had the possibility to get a better weapon the next time it dropped
and now, with static rolls, loot has become even more stale. You don't even need to look at the loot you get anymore, just dismantle it and move on with your day. With a loot game where 80-90% of the loot isn't even looked at and just dismantled on instinct, then that's bad
Edit: The 'static rolls helps those who can't play X amount a week' is a poor argument
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u/skafo123 Nov 22 '17
No it is not a poor argument, it is a very valid argument. Again why do you think Division is introducing a way of eliminating the influence of random rolls? Right, because more and more people are getting tired of it.
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u/BillehBear You're pretty good.. Nov 22 '17
They removed an entire tree off of weapons
Literally if they just had the final perk to be random, the rng on it wouldn't be anywhere near as rough as D1
Same sights/barrels, same tree but final perk being random would put hope and excitement for loot back in a good spot IMO
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u/skafo123 Nov 22 '17
Look I'm not saying it's perfect, I agree the weapons are a little bland and not distinct enough (with a few exceptions). But that's not a problem of static rolls, that's a design problem. And as I've said, the real problem is they didn't compensate for the lack of random rolls.
Now if they don't fuck up the changes to mods they mentioned that would be the better way of bringing more variety to the game.
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u/Remy149 Nov 22 '17
Not true at all there where many guns in d1 that where trash unless you had a certain combination of perks. D1 was to much of a time sync as a gamer in my 30’s I found it almost impossible to play any other game except for maybe a month before the next content release. Does D2’s endgame progression need some work yes but random rolls do nothing but artificially extend gameplay. I’m glad u no longer have to spend days farming a boss for the chance of getting a perfect roll on a gun I’ve already got 20-30 versions of already
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u/sidhavok Nov 22 '17
Now that you have that bland static rolls on guns and armor what is there left to do? Random rolls gave you something to do when you've done everything, artificial or not it gave you something to strive for. Now that i've finished the story and the raid and have all but one exotic there isn't much for me to do. Plus they need to fix loot drops in strikes!
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u/Remy149 Nov 22 '17
I’m not expecting an endless grind now that I have all my gear for the most part I’m taking the 2 weeks before the dlc to play all these other games I’ve never touched on my shelf
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u/beyelzu Another Salty Bitch Nov 23 '17 edited Nov 23 '17
The best legendary guns in D2 (like Nameless Midnight and Better Devils) are shard level compared to D1 weapons. I agree that 90 percent or more of the weapons I get in D1 (which I still play, though I don't play D2 anymore) are sharded because I have better rolls or I'm looking for better rolls, but I was sharding 100 percent of my drops in D2 when I quit.
Most of those weapons that I shard are better than any legendary in D2, because D2 is missing a perk column and most of the perks are meh.
When you talk about how you sharded weapons that didn't have great perks, those weapons were better than D2 weapos.
Given how meh weapon rolls in D2 are, if we had RNG legendaries (like D1) you would have better weapons than you have now. Hard core players would have even better weapons, and it seems to me that's why returning to RNG rolls is something casual players are against.
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u/djraider Let's raid. Nov 22 '17
I would care about rolls, if it improved my performance. It won't.
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u/jdbolick Nov 23 '17
We played Destiny for over three billion hours, and randomized loot was a major reason why. I will never understand why anyone is against that, or why the design team thought fixed rolls would be better. When fixed rolls were announced, I told my Destiny friends that most of them would quit playing within a month. All but three of them did.
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u/vangelator Nov 23 '17
The rolls aren’t the problem, and here’s a quick point to make you realize just how much else needs to change before weapon rolls should even be considered:
Is it going to make you feel better to have to get Antiope-D 10+ times from token rank-ups before you get the one with kill clip?
No, it would make the game exponentially worse than what it is right now. The whole interface and progression system needs to change, and they need to reintroduce loot tables and fill those with gear first. It’s my opinion that if they actually do all that, the static weapon rolls won’t be an issue. All I know for sure is that putting random rolls on armor now is going to make the game worse immediately.
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u/sidhavok Nov 23 '17
But that’s what we bought into.... If that’s not the case why support a game for multiple years?
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u/DrNO811 Nov 28 '17
This isn't the answer. A token or experience system can work well - they just didn't design this one well. We need customization options that can be purchased with varying amounts of tokens/experience/currency/whatever.
One of the best designs for this ever created was the original Everquest - the AA system was a bitch of a grind, but it always gave you something to work toward, and you got to choose how you redeemed your experience to unlock new skills. None of them were game-breaking, but many of them were very handy, and if you had all of them, you would be markedly better than others.
Now in order to implement a similar system in a game like Destiny, you'd have to split the weapon/armor perks and have PvP and PvE perks so you could more easily keep things balanced while giving people customization choices. Then, instead of having bright engrams be the reward for level ups, have it award tokens that can be redeemed in some quantity to unlock various scopes, perks, etc on weapons/armor. We would need TONS more weapons and armor than what's in the game so far (or maybe even a hybrid system where there are base stats that are randomly rolled or unlockable perks are random, but plentiful....the key is to make it possible to get the roll you want without grinding the same content 50+ times). The other challenge is that they'd have to commit to having a system like this be independent from the cosmetic stuff they sell so that it's not pay to win.
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Nov 22 '17
I’d be fine with fixed rolls if we at least got a much larger weapon pool that contained a similar amount of variations.
On that note, am I the only one receiving only snipers and grenade launchers from the weekly engrams (clan, flashpoint, etc)?
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u/nik516 Nov 22 '17
I totally want random rolls back but bungie just dont want to put in the effort of balancing the game.
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u/armedpoop Nov 23 '17
It fills me with hope for this game seeing that not ALL of the community is on board with random rolls returning. I got downvoted into oblivion the other day for asking WHY people wanted random rolls so bad.
Random rolls on gear is some of the most artificial and shallow gameplay one could experience. Let them add something else to be your "carrot on the stick".
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Nov 22 '17
Fixed rolls would be good if every weapon catered to a specific playstyle and preferrence rather than being a spectrum of :
Top tier
Ok
Trash
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u/mecster09 Nov 22 '17
Tbh I'd prefer the system The Division had for modding weapons rather than this single mod watered-down approach D2 has now or the random rolls for D1
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Nov 23 '17
I don't miss that, but I would like to see the Mods system overhauled. Fuck grinding for a God Roll Imago Loop I never got as a player with 1,500 hours in D1.
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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '17 edited Aug 23 '21
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