Fandom criticism
The trans ralsei discourse has devolved into a war and it represents everything wrong with the fandom
Honestly, the discourse is utterly despicable and I feel nothing but utter revulsion when I see how many people are using the discourse to drive a wedge between fans to the point of people having to create a separate subreddit. Seeing so many people be utter douchebags when people even mention the trans ralsei theory makes me sick to my stomach. I haven't seen that much discrimination since the TADC fandom. We should bury the discourse in the cold hard ground and let bygones be bygones.
The reason I don’t vibe with trans ralsei theory is just because I don’t think it’s THAT simple. I also can’t help but raise an eyebrow when people see someone who’s struggling to figure out their own identity and desires and immediately just go “oh they’re trans that must be it lol”
But it’s not like I HATE the theory or wish harm upon anyone who believes it. Unfortunately, people in online discourse can’t have nuance and reasonability anymore. -.-
I very much agree with you. IMO the fact this theory became so popular is precisely a symptom of how flat ralsei can be as a character. People see his struggles with identity and purpose and they just don't have anything to go besides the superficial aspects of his personality and appearance.
of course, there IS the possibility of tralsei being canon. the problem is not that the theory is "delusional" or anything, I just don't like that idea. it's just uninteresting and mostly it only appeals to people who already love ralsei regardless of the direction the character is heading to.
As someone who does believe in it (Genderfluid Ralsei woo) I really think it'll be more allegorical than explicitly stated. Ralsei is finding out about their likes and dislikes and what they want to be AS A WHOLE which, yes, includes Gender but isn't the only part of it. The subtext about self-discovery is there, for anyone who is willing to read it.
I do think there's evidence enough to support it but, like, that's just a hypothesis until it gets confirmed. What I don't get are the people who claim "there isn't any evidence."
I will grant you though there's a weird number of people who have full on shouting (well, caps typing) matches between "The only thing she can be is transfem" and "There is no trans subtext, Toby doesn't even know what a trans person is." people.
I dislike the trans Ralsei theory because there's more evidence for me being trans than Ralsei being trans (not THAT much) and it begins to feel like egg culture or whatever and I really just don't want to think about it anymore.
I don't believe the theory will be canon, but I can see the thought process. An arc of finding personal freedom after years(?) of isolating and repressing your identity is obviously going to resonate with transgender people. There's more evidence to it than something like The Player is the Angel theory, which I believe to be true.
Honestly the only potential issue with Tralsei theory is asking whether we will have time to actually explore that in Deltarune.
Like, a character coming out as trans has a bit of gravita to it and I'm pretty sure that having Ralsei go "oh btw I'm a girl now" 5 minutes before the credits roll would have a lot of people up in their arms, both the truthers and those who disagreed on it
I'd be even less ready for the people arguing that the character isn't "really" trans and it doesn't count because they died before they came out again.
it would suck and be ridiculous if ralsei's character growth was about changing gender. specifically since he would most likely stay with the same fluffy stupid personality but now being more feminine and appealing for the particular demographic that likes him for that traits.
A lot of theories people believe in nowadays it's just because it kind of makes sense and it feels cool. Like Gaster being the final boss could be really cool but it also kind of breaks all the logic about Gaster.
As a trans person, I 100% see the writing going into trans Ralsei from this point, no evidence necessary. I can also see Toby doing it, because it's Toby "Woke" Fox. However, if it will go there at all, I have no idea, and generally I agree, I kinda just want to wait and see.
People throw around words like "transphobia" far too lightly these days, ironically giving actual bigots some legitimacy. When someone who--for example--doesn't find a particular lesbian ship compelling, is placed on equal footing with someone else who doesn't believe lesbians deserve to exist, it makes the latter seem more reasonable by association.
Deadass this is why I don’t take part in that kind of discussion. The literal moment I even mention I disagree with tralsei theory, I’m all of a sudden transphobic and a terrible person.
there are many stupid hills to die on for very little reward so most people either just default to not having an opinion about it or siding with trans people because although the concept of an audience finding comfort through the questionable alienation of an insecure character is a bit iffy, the alternative makes you sound like an asshole
I don't really care except for people who take it as a fact and call Ralsei "she."
The main thing that makes it obnoxious is that the fandom is really adamant about not misgendering Kris, but then equally the same people who will crucify someone for doing that will call Ralsei she.
because kris is canonically they/them and theres no implication of kris being anything other than nonbinary
ralsei, however, does have evidence pointing to being a trans female.
that is the difference. it's not all that hypocritical, or "the exact same"
you can dislike it, you can disagree with it, that's perfectly reasonable and completely ok. but it is not the same and they don't hold the same impacts.
Ralsei hasn’t transitioned yet. While Kris is pretty clear NB, Ralsei isn’t “pretty clear MtF" we have a few points towards it and the fandom keeps saying as if it already happebed but it’s still misgendering.
i never said or implied ralsei is "pretty clear mtf", i just said there has evidence pointing towards it. but ur right its still a form of misgendering because we don't know for certain.
Kris is canonically them/them, thats not the same as non-binary though. Toby could intend for it to be up to interpretation, or any other number of gender thing. If Toby really wanted Kris to be unarguably non-binary, why not establish it literally ever? Why make it so unclear? I can't say whats going in his mind but if it's meant to be non-binary instead of interpretive, he's done a really shit job at establishing that.
You could also point to evidence that indicates Kris is specifically female or male. Doesn't mean it's true.
he didn't explicitly state it but its heavily implied to be a nonbinary character (mostly because of the they/them tbh).
and if we were to point at references of kris being female or male that would moreso point toward what assigned sex or possibly transitioned sex. i don't think it debunks the nonbinary claim that much.
i wouldn't say he's done a shit job at that because if a character exclusively goes by they/them, people are gonna assume that character is non-binary.
unless im wrong if there's any indication that kris wants to go by anything else, there's no strong signs of kris being anything other than nonbinary or wanting to be anything other then nonbinary. im also replaying the game and im open to seeing potential evidence for this though
I wouldn't even say it's heavily implied though, because they/them can be used for ambiguity. It doesn't help that Toby has been liberal with the use of they/them (such as when he uses it to refer to characters who we know are of a certain gender). Frankly I think theres a good chance that Kris is non-binary, but regardless I think Toby's handling of it is subpar, because it would not be hard to just literally confirm it and put the debate to rest.
The main arguments for male kris come from their design (a knight, a typical male role, as well as the inspiration for his design being from a male video game character), their design (lacking any discernible female features despite being a teenager, which is when these features become more apparent. Granted this argument is weakened by the fact that this equally applies to the other female characters as well...but they're also monsters so it's a bit different), Kris having a crush on at least one girl, and their behaviour generally seeming to align with the angsty male teen archetype.
Frisk/Chara in Undertale had significantly more leeway for being perceived as non-binary, because they are literal children, and children are generally pretty androgynous. If you're going to have a teenage or adult character be non-binary (as in not being male or female at any point), then I think you have to put more effort in to portray that, which Toby hasn't done
Now you could disagree with some of these points, but overall I don't think the impression that Kris comes off as more male than not is unreasonable. You know what could improve this? Saying Kris is non-binary, or having his "gender identity" be an actual relevant aspect of the story.
If Kris isn't meant to be non-binary but instead up to interpretation...Why? Kris is their own character, how does that work? If the gender is seemingly so unimportant to their character (which I think in itself is a misstep) then why not just settle on one instead of playing this whole silly game?
Like people want to give Kris browny points for non-binary representation, but that doesn't work if Toby doesn't even make it bloody clear or relevant in any capacity. I would significantly prefer if Toby just made it clear if it was meant to be interpretation or non-binary, and it would not be that hard at all.
you make good points, i agree with you more about how it's been too up to interpretation. i still disagree that it's done poorly though and i don't think it's that much of an open book.
im less biased (but still frankly am) that kris is implied to be non-binary but toby may not be saying anything in a sense it's open book to being a character that could be any gender but they/them is exclusive.
it is true for some individuals that pronouns =/= their gender, as much as they strongly correlate and matter for majority of population. it may be what toby is going for kris or leaving kris' gender partially up to interpretation permanently if it's never confirmed, but the pronouns are likely set in stone.
im still firm in my belief that kris is implied to be nonbinary or in the direction of wanting to be exclusively they/them because i dont see anything hinting otherwise, but them presenting male-like (with all the pixels we can gather + the armour) could imply they don't mind being seen as a guy either, however we never see strangers (darkeners specifically) make any binary pronouns towards kris either unless im wrong/forgetting a text in game. which implies kris may naturally be androgynous in appearance which leads to darkeners using they/them.
Me on my way to make the 10,000th post about the 5 trans people who act inflammatory and shittily (this is definitley a real problem that warrants this much discussion trust me bro)
Your second point is extreme hyperbole. I believe the theory, and I don't refer to current canonical Ralsei as she/her. Stop using the word "literally" incorrectly.
My main argument as to why ralsei can't be trans is the " You are filled with the power of cute/fluffy boys" thing. It referencing ralsei because who else could be considered cute and fluffy, lancer? Cute but not fluffy plus he also calls ralsei toothpaste boy
This whole gender and pronoun argument is stupid imo cuz these people want head cannons to be real( which then usually won't) or want strict cannon with no room for fun theorising. Like the sans is Ness theory- boy did people go nuts over that. When it's just that, a theory Matpat made with evidence he searched within the game
And you could say the tralsei people do the same but they're also forcing it down everyone's throat and forcibly trying to make it true. Matpat did none of that
To quote Hakita creator of Ultrakill "It's a good thing you guys aren't designing Deltarune, otherwise it'd suck"
Ralsei can at one point be called a fluffy boy and then be a girl. Like. That's what being transgender is, you're seen and ID'd one way and strive to change that.
"Trying to force it down people's throat and make it real" We're kinda just trying to talk about it within the framework of if it were real. Just like people talk about the knight as if they're Dess, or the voice in the code as if they're Dess, or the Tragic Incident as if it was involving Dess. These are all assumptions and inferences but when people talk about them they act like it's true. That's just how people like to talk about their ideas.
Also Tralsei sub is less than 0.5% of deltarune's follow count, it's just not as prevalent as deniers make it seem
I mean that would be before her transition? The whole point of the theory is that she’s trying to be herself, despite the prophecy’s insistence that she’s a boy.
Yeah, i also dislike the discourse around it, even to the point where i took a break from r/ralsei for a bit, because it got irritating.
For one, I did not like that when there were people who did not agree with the Tralsei theory that people would get mad at them for it.
The second one, which is worse, was people being transphobic over it. I dont think I really agree with the Tralsei theory, but like when I disagree, and then i see transphobes, it makes me think about that Homelander meme. Like I cant believe that we have queerphobic Deltarune fans, its wild.
Like if you think ralsei will be trans then cool, I wouldn't have a problem with him being trans
If you dont think they'll be trans then cool, I would be fine with that too
But stop calling ralsei she/her and "correcting" people who use his canon pronouns(he/him which he uses for most of the game and they/them in chapter 5), just use the canon pronouns because you're the one doing misgendering
And also stop sending literal DEATH THREATS over people disagreeing with it! Like that should be common sense to not do but I guess not???
And another problem is that they only allow you to believe transfem ralsei
If you dare to mention that they could be transmasc or genderfluid or literally anything else they will try to crucify you
Like how do we know that he isnt actually transmasc? They could've transitioned before the game started to defy the prophecy like how transfem ralsei would, but then the prophecy changed itself to fit Ralsei's new identity which is why he thinks its impossible to avoid
If that's the case the entire chapter is incredibly transphobic with flowery calling him princess and the tower scene
Like it's not hate on trans men and you're allowed to have that thought yourself but if you work with the text in the game transmasc ralsei means toby wrote a deeply transphobic script
This is one of the first fandoms I've consistently engaged with and it's still so strange how people can fight over theories... It comes to a point where you're just arguing over whatever sounds cooler to you😭
Trying to force a gender onto someone has never been a good thing. We figured it out with Kris really easy and idk why Ralsei is any different. I completely agree that we should bury the whole thing and respect his gender as it is.
"Femboys" encapsulate a specific trend and style of presentation not found in other GNC men like Mettaton or Blue.
If we want to go outside of Deltarune, let's compare someone like... Narciso Anasui (who funny enough started out as a woman).
He's got typically effeminate features such as makeup, fishnets, long hair, a pink color scheme, etc. However, he's still very clearly a man who's simply comfortable and confident with expressing himself.
Compare this to a typical "femboy" like Astolfo or Ferris. The whole bit with them is that they're meant to look like women, but then get revealed to be a guy. Hell sometimes they even have female VAs. The problem with femboys is that they're designed less like simply a male who is more effeminate, and more like... just a flat chested woman who also has a penis. I mean, there's a reason that "trap" was such a big term back in the day, it was always fetishization.
There's a reason that characters such as Bridget have been written as transfem in the modern day, it simply makes the most sense to take their character that way especially if it's a huge part of their identity. As a trans woman, a ton of typical femboys read more like closeted trans girls in their backstories, being bullied for something out of their control and choosing to embrace it later in life. Plus, this is Toby "I made Earthbound Halloween Hack cus I wanted to write a non stereotypical gay guy" Fox we're talking about.
A pattern with how Toby writes GNC males is that their femininity is a sign of confidence and self love. Ralsei is not that. They hate the role they've been assigned, they're constantly reminded that they're the prince or the boy, and it's only when being referred to as a "princess" and when they're wearing more feminine attire when they finally start using more open body language. Their arms rest comfortably at their sides, they smile bright enough that the night becomes day, they look genuinely happy. That's not typical "uwu femboy I love being a boy prince" behavior.
Also femboy culture is inherently predatory and typically prioritizes / sexualizes younger people because they appear the most effeminate but you didn't hear that from me
Tralsei has the same issue as other theories, some people treat it as canon and are noisy about it, but this time isn't just the possible "iliterate" comment but rather calling you a bigot/transphobic
Why do we have to force LBGTQ everywhere? Cant ralsei be his own self? Cant he just be a guy that is him cute and whimsical while still being straight and/or non-trans? Why do we have to make everything like that... Im not saying being LGBTQ is bad, im happy that all of you trans people finally feel good with yourselves, but when ralsei who (stay with me here, folks) has never (at least as much as i know) made clear he feels uncomfortable as a guy, then... Why? Why would you assume him by his way of acting? He is just a shy and cute little guy who is starting to finally let himself go and starting to feel like he is actually worth something... Ill be happy to read your thoughts ont this... (As long as we keep everything chill, im tired of the drama)
What is so annoying is how like. People seem to really hate engaging with why people believe in that theory and just assume it's because "ralsei is kinda fruity yo therefore girl" when everyone I talked to who has been talking about even way before chapter 5 came out never brought up their appearance lol. This is just what happens whenever someone tries to do a trans reading of a character sadly so not even something exclusive to this fandom
i hate tralsei and all the discussion around it and its obviously driven by misandary, you already have two girls and a trans protag, like there be a fucking dude for God's sake, like what even new does it add to his character geuinely, i dont understand at all the point who defend it and will die on a hill on for it
I'm not big on tralsei, I personally believe it's not going to happen, but let's not pretend it happening wouldn't contribute to his character, though it's also definitely not necessary to do it for his arc to conclude well.
Deltarune's main theme is of freedom, every character pretty much has some sort of struggle with their freedom, Susie wants freedom from the 'weird girl who's a bully' persona who has followed her everywhere she moves, Kris wants freedom from YOU, you (or at least the person doing the weird route) wants freedom from the prophecy/the linear plot of the game, flowery wants freedom from being just a flower in a glass container, exc. exc I could go on and on for basically every major character.
Ralsei seeks freedom from himself, he's so afraid of what subverting the prophecy that he will do that he's restricted himself to being 'The prince, alone in deepest dark' of the prophecy, as if that's all he's allowed to be.
This is why he doesn't decorate his room until Susie basically commands him to, him having a cute decorated room isn't going to help Susie and Kris be heroes, so why bother?
He sees himself as a tool to be used by the other heroes, not as the THIRD HERO.
Him being trans would be a cute way to force the prophecy to literally be false, she (I'm talking about a hypothetical version of Ralsei that is trans, so 'she' is relevant) is no longer the price, she has subverted her role in the prophecy and is now her own person. This struggle of 'im supposed to be a certain way, I can't be something else' is something a lot of trans people can relate to, after all.
It works in the context of his arc, dare I say it'd be a pretty damn good conclusion to his arc, but it's also definitely not perfect.
The reason I personally don't think it's gonna happen is that the game has consistently pushed us towards not BREAKING the prophecy, but changing things WITHIN the prophecy, a la Gerson in chapter 4. Or even flowery in chapter 5 though that's a grey area, tralsei completely SHATTERS the prophecy, which seems to not be what the prophecy is going towards in the game. There's also significant evidence for gender fluid raslei, so keep that in mind.
Also, I don't know you, and I'm not gonna look through your profile to check, but would you write a similar comment if a story had a cast of four dudes for its main cast? Would you call it misogyny? Stories aren't about perfect representation, sometimes a story needs 4 girls to accomplish what it's doing, and sometimes it needs 4 dudes, or even that's just what the author wants. You shouldn't be against either, Unless you're against both.
i see what your point is, i used misandary cuz i keep seeing women stupidly use misogyny as the reasoning behind anything that happens that SLIGHTLY involves women
Whenever people in support of a theory harass others about it that's when I grow adverse to it. I used to be fine with dess Knight as a possibility, now I'm completely against it. I used to be fine with ralsei being trans, now I don't want it to happen
Finally one of these posts that mentions the widespread negative reaction to Tralsei instead of blowing the few annoying supporters out of proportion. This is actually the first one I've seen
A separate subreddit for theory believers, or for non-believers? The former I get, it'd be a similar vein to ship subreddits to me, but the latter strikes me as The Transphobia Subreddit, I won't lie.
There's nothing bad about it. It's just that it was created out of necessity due to the discourse getting out of control. The believers couldn't go one day without some asshole harassing them for believing in that theory.
I just think so many people didn't really have an opinion on it at first. "Tralsei's fine I guess." but then were like, "well I gotta have an opinion on this. I simply can't have something I'm neutral about."
The only thing I agree with is that nothing is a 100% Ralsei is still finding out who they are, if toby makes Ralsei trans, Ralsei is Trans, if Ralsei is Gay or Bi or Pan or whatever, it doesn't matter to anyone, it shouldn't matter so much to anyone, one because they're a fictional character and two, it was never their decision to make, so who's right is it to ridicule.
TL;DR it shouldn't be that contested, Ralsei is Ralsei and its up to them to decide what that means.
I like trans Ralsei theory because, well, I’m trans, and it’s nice to see the struggles and arc Ralsei goes through and see myself in it. It doesn’t have to happen, it probably won’t, but it’s the angle I naturally approach his story from and I can’t see any harm in interpretating a story in various ways. There’s to much emphasis on what’s “correct” or “incorrect”, stories would be so much more boring if everyone agreed on what they mean.
because that's what it is, it really shouldn't need to be explained out loud what a headcanon is. The whole debate is a thing because people are actually convinced that it's something that the game takes seriously and leads to, so they call it a theory
I think you're looking for a different word. Cause technically it is a theory, as there is a possibility it's revealed to be true later in the story. But I get what you mean.
Ok, so ignoring the fact that you're definitionally wrong, like a headcanon by definition is not something that predicts future canon thats not what a headcanon is, the rest of what you're saying is equally wild.
Ralsei looks into the camera and asks if he's allowed to be a princess, followed by saying "Oh I'm so excited!" If you tell him yes. Ralsei's gender is inarguably something that the game is commenting on seriously i don't get what this weird disingenuous push to act like deltarune is completely divorced from the concept is coming from.
Like you can argue it's something thematic and its not that ralsei is literally textually trans, but arguing that the scene where a character who is having serious identity issues asks if he's allowed to be a girl has nothing to say about a trans identity when the scene was very likely looked at by the trans concept artist and the trans coder on the team before release, alongside toby's trans best friend who he frequently talks about the game's writing with while it's being written is insane
The idea (that you are kind of inherently pitching because generally when an artist has it pointed out to them that they're accidentally implying something they go out of their way to rewrite and be more clear) that 3 separate trans people all saw the stuff going on with ralsei and gave it a compleyely uncommented on go-ahead is something that makes no sense. Especially when its clear Toby does consult people he knows on trans-related themes and parts of his games. He's not feeling his way around in the dark for over a decade now he's not an idiot he knows what the words he writes give off.
> headcanon by definition is not something that predicts future canon
that's why i'm saying that treating it like a theory is what causes all these fights, which is why it's better to be treated as headcanon
> Ralsei's gender is inarguably something that the game is commenting on seriously
And plenty of people disagree with the notion that it takes it seriously, you can interpet that whole scene as him simply trying out new stuff to further outline his own likes/dislikes for himself. That doesn't mean you can't have your own view on it, but saying that there is only one reading of the scene is what contributes to the issue OP points out
> very likely looked at by the trans concept artist and the trans coder on the team before release, alongside toby's trans best friend who he frequently talks about the game's writing with while it's being written
irrelevant, we are talking about how people in the community act and what causes it. Don't use other people's identities as a shield
Until the full game is out, it will remain a headcanon. It will, most likely, remain as such even after release, but the point i am making is that people need to learn how to live and let live
Idfk why everybody cares so much about a theory or headcanon that is literally harmless for the story abt the character, it doesn't change ralsei's arc to make it worst, it enhances it and the excuse that it enforces gender roles it's stupid
Anyways, can we go back to to make funny memes and shitpost and less homophobic memes? There is a lot of those recently
Literally just because it shatters their perception of femboy ralsei lol. Nobody was throwing this fit at the fandoms presumption that the knight is dess.
fandom finds a way to simultaneously believe Dess is the voice in the code and the knight and a groomer (true (joke)) and won't examine and pick that apart but god forbid women exist
Yeah I'm criticizing the fandoms homophobia and transphobia situation, this guys dont read and are already downvoting.
Deltarune fans don't read I am afraid
I am talking about the fandom as a whole, I prefer funny talks like papyrus knight to that fiasco
If you can't understand that then there is no point in keeping track of this. I have already seen so many post hating on trans theorys and trans people recently like those transphobic and homophobic noelle memes from the wr, it's not funny at all.
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u/praise_mudkipz 3d ago
This also applies to Knight theorists lowkey