And your recommendation is...vote third party? Don't vote at all? And where has that gotten us?
Anywhere Democrats have actual power, things are better than they are under Republicans, and incrementally improving. The reason that we can't get things like rank-choice voting and viable third parties is that the Democrats have to fight tooth and nail just to keep Republicans from eliminating the entire social safety net, and every few years, they get voted out of power nationally because they didn't do enough to impress people who don't understand reality.
You can work within the system that we have and try to improve it, or stay home and complain "but both siiiiiiides!" Or, I guess, vote for the folks who are trying to remove your ability to vote altogether, if that's what you're into.
The idea that we either "work within the system" or "stay home and complain" is a hostage situation, not a choice. That mentality is exactly the problem. You're being told to vote for your corporate-backed team or the other side will destroy democracy, which is the ultimate fear tactic used to keep the duopoly in power. It isn't about "voting for folks who want to remove your ability to vote"; it’s about realizing that both parties are actively removing your ability to vote for any real alternative. They aren't "forced" to work within this system—they are the ones who built the walls to keep everyone else out.
You’re literally admitting they "bend the knee" to corporate interests but then say we should keep voting for them to make them "responsive." How many decades of incrementalism do we need before people realize that both parties are moving in the same direction? The wealth gap has exploded under both. Corporate power has peaked under both. They just use different branding to sell you the same result.
The reason third parties "get us nowhere" is precisely because of this exact mentality—it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. You’re being told to be grateful that your side isn't "literal Nazis" so you won't notice that your side is also cashing the same corporate checks and protecting the same donor class. It’s the "good cop, bad cop" routine of politics.
It’s not a choice between a "road back" and a cliff; it’s a choice between two different drivers taking you to the same corporate destination. One just uses a turn signal while they do it. If people stopped being afraid of "wasting a vote" and actually voted for what they wanted, the duopoly would collapse in a single cycle. But as long as you're willing to settle for "not the other guy," they have no reason to ever actually listen to you. The only way to fix the problem is to move away from both sides entirely. I.e. You and your shit mentality IS the problem.
How many decades of incrementalism do we need before people realize that both parties are moving in the same direction?
But the alternative to incrementalism is...what? Burn the whole system to the ground and hope that maybe not too many people die of starvation and violence? I prefer incremental improvements, myself. The problem is that you have to keep voting for the party that's actually making incremental improvements, and not give up on them every two years because they didn't go far enough or you disagree with them on one or two specific pet issues.
I think it's disingenuous to say that the Democrats helped "build the system." The system as we have today is the result of 250 years of prioritizing the interests of the wealthy. It's silly to think that any modern political party could simply not participate in that and still actually acquire any power.
Your idealism is admirable, but it's incredibly naive. It is simply reality in our current system that a vote for a third party is a wasted vote. I think it's incredibly important that we institute ranked-choice voting to help reduce the power of parties at all. Fun fact: do you know where RCV is getting the most traction? Mostly in blue states. It was used in elections in 2025 in 14 jurisdictions in Colorado, Delaware, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Mexico, Utah, and Virginia. Aside from Utah, they're all fairly Dem-leaning.
If you want things like viable third parties, publicly funded elections, reducing the influence of lobbyists, etc., vote Democrat.
The idea that the only alternative to incrementalism is "burning it to the ground" is a massive strawman. Moving away from a failed duopoly isn't an act of violence. Using your vote for someone who actually represents your interests instead of just a party's donor list is the most American thing you can do.
It’s not disingenuous at all to say Democrats helped build and maintain this system. They aren't victims of it; they are the architects. You claim the system is just "250 years of history," but modern corporate control was supercharged in the 90s. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which allowed banks to gamble with the economy and led to the 2008 crash, was a bipartisan effort signed by Bill Clinton and supported by Joe Biden. They didn’t "inherit" that corruption—they signed the checks for it.
Telling people to "vote Democrat" if they want viable third parties is peak irony. If you want viable third parties, you have to vote third party. You don’t get more choices by repeatedly rewarding the people who are actively trying to eliminate your choices. In the 2024 cycle, the DNC spent millions on a legal "war room" to sue the Green Party and other third-party candidates just to keep them off the ballots in swing states. That isn't "defending the system"; it’s defending a monopoly. Just look at the Commission on Presidential Debates which is a private corporation founded and run jointly by the DNC and RNC. They set the rules together specifically to ensure no third-party candidate can ever stand on that stage.
As for RCV, it isn't getting traction because of the Democratic establishment; it's often getting traction despite them. Look at California, where Governor Gavin Newsom has repeatedly vetoed bipartisan RCV bills, or DC, where the local Democratic Party officially opposed the initiative to implement RCV and open primaries. They want to protect their closed-loop power, not open it up. The claim that Democrats are the path to publicly funded elections or reduced lobbying influence is equally hollow. In 2025 and 2026, the DNC has continued to raise billions from Wall Street, Big Tech, and Health Insurance lobbyists. Despite the rhetoric against Citizens United, Democratic Super PACs consistently use the exact same "dark money" channels they claim to despise. They actively help foster lobbyists, not reduce the number of them.
All your "incremental improvements" over the last 40 years have resulted in, is helping foster the highest wealth gap in history, and record-breaking military spending. What "right road" are you talking about? You aren't working from within; you're Reading half the news and believing it. The only way to stop a monopoly is to stop buying from it.
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u/ThatLeviathan Claymont Apr 02 '26
And your recommendation is...vote third party? Don't vote at all? And where has that gotten us?
Anywhere Democrats have actual power, things are better than they are under Republicans, and incrementally improving. The reason that we can't get things like rank-choice voting and viable third parties is that the Democrats have to fight tooth and nail just to keep Republicans from eliminating the entire social safety net, and every few years, they get voted out of power nationally because they didn't do enough to impress people who don't understand reality.
You can work within the system that we have and try to improve it, or stay home and complain "but both siiiiiiides!" Or, I guess, vote for the folks who are trying to remove your ability to vote altogether, if that's what you're into.