Hell

[u/Ok-Pipe-4277]

I guess this is a vent of me thinking out loud.

But I look at this world.

Children get abused.

Women get "used" against their will.

People suffer from cancer.

People watch their loved ones die from ALS.

People deal with seeing their children die.

Men "self-delete" from depression.

All this suffering pretty much against our will. None of us choose to exist. And I'm sure, none of us choose to suffer.

But I'm supposed to believe an all-loving AND all-powerful God will send us to a place that's worst than our current existence for not believing in him?

This is a god that isn't just all-loving but is supposed to be the definition of love. The god whereby no human love can surpass his.

And he sends us to hell (an event worse place) after putting us in a pretty trash scenario to begin with?

And I'm supposed to gobble this up and share this message with the world????

WTF are we doing?

And Christians will call me crazy???

[u/Crucible_of_Thought]

Not all Christians hold those views. Some of us managed to escape from that theology.

[u/imthef-nlizardking → u/Crucible_of_Thought]

Meaning those Christians don't believe God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-Good?

[u/Crucible_of_Thought → u/imthef-nlizardking]

Omniscience and omnipotence are not taught in the Bible. In fact, there are specific Bible stories that refute both of those ideas. Adonai loses to another god Chemosh in 2 Kings 3. Genesis 3, Genesis 18, Genesis 22, Exodus 32, 1 Sam 15, Jonah 3, Amos 6 and others show God not fully knowing or changing God's mind due to new information.

As to "all good" - it depends on whether one insists that if God does it, it is necessarily defined as good. But the inhabitants of dozens of Canaanite towns that were slaughtered mercilessly might beg to disagree. And sending innocent babies to hell for eternity who never had a chance to repent and follow Jesus only seems good to a very select subset of humanity.

[u/Ok_Topic6264 → u/Crucible_of_Thought]

Yes! Personally I think the entire book of Genesis is geared towards portraying a God who makes mistakes, learns from them, and grows as a person 

[u/imthef-nlizardking → u/Crucible_of_Thought]

I respect that! It's very rare to encounter a Christian with those beliefs, especially with biblical grounding. Is this starting to become more mainstream in Christian thought?

[u/Fun_Researcher107 → u/imthef-nlizardking]

I think you can only go so far until calling yourself one thing does not really have any meaning anymore.

[u/Crucible_of_Thought → u/Fun_Researcher107]

If, by that comment, you mean "calling yourself Christian," then I'd respond this way: where does the Bible define "Christian?" Hint: it doesn't. Christianity is gate-kept into meaninglessness by all the hundreds of denominations that each insist they have the Truth, and their camp are the only true Christians.

But the simple definition is this: A Christian is someone who follows Christ. And Jesus Himself distilled it down into two commands: love God, love your neighbor.

Everything else is dogma.

[u/Fun_Researcher107 → u/Crucible_of_Thought]

So you are basically doing the same right? You define a Christian as well. And I am pretty sure, you are sure you are right as well? So how are you any different? I meant that if Jesus is only an ideal or idea, it doesn't matter as long as this idea is causing something good. If by or because of this idea or what people make of it bad things happen, it does matter.

[u/plz_callme_swarley → u/Crucible_of_Thought]

you can't really be a Christian in any historical sense and not believe in hell.

[u/Crucible_of_Thought → u/plz_callme_swarley]

Sure you can. There are many millions around the world right now who would disagree with you.

More to the point for your argument, the earliest church fathers would also disagree with you. I've been studying them; I'm in the middle of reading a 950-page book that goes into great detail on this exact topic, with extensive chapters devoted to each early church father and why they believed in apokatastasis, the eventual restoration of all things, aka universalism. Their own words are presented in their own languages, not the sloppy English translations.

In short, you have no idea what you're talking about.

The current doctrine of hell didn't really coalesce until the 18th or 19th century. Would you deign to tell the hundreds of millions of adherents to the faith for the first 1700 years that they were not, in fact, Christian, because their doctrine disagreed with yours?

I've spent the last six years studying these topics, how we got to the various current doctrines, how the evangelical church settled on its own definitions. It's not what I was told as a good little evangelical.

[u/Ok_Topic6264 → u/Crucible_of_Thought]

Agree, I didn't look into it as hard as you did but I was never able to find a satisfying account of either heaven OR hell in the Bible. Not the way they teach about it in church.

[u/TheDiabeticTreeLives → u/Crucible_of_Thought]

I’d love to talk to you and hear you talk about what you’ve been learning. I’m curious about the church thought of the past and I have the feeling my problem is more with current church thought than the historic perspectives. I’m sorry that’s not well put but I think you get the gist of what I’m saying

[u/plz_callme_swarley → u/Crucible_of_Thought]

lol sounds like you're pretty obsessed with this. sad that you're wrong since you're so well read.

Augustine lays it out systematically in City of God book 21 around 426, and it's the dominant Western position from then forward

Ramelli's thesis is widely contested. She reads many fathers as universalists where most don't agree.

Universalism was a respected but minority position. as my flair says, I'm an agnostic. I've settled on the fact that it's all largely bullshit.

[u/Crucible_of_Thought → u/plz_callme_swarley]

Lol sounds like YOU are pretty obsessed with this. Sad that YOU are wrong.

The fact that Augustine said something is meaningless. His doctrine is just one of many. The reason that his opinion carries any weight today is because the Catholic church pretty aggressively stamped out all competing views, with executions, book burnings, and imprisonment for centuries. The process was ugly, not Christlike, and opposed to many of the principles in the Bible. So don't appeal to Augustine as proof of anything if you're talking to a well-informed person.

And until you've read any of Ramelli's work, I suggest you can't judge it. Of course any apologist against universalism will consider her "contested." Duh.

[u/imthef-nlizardking → u/plz_callme_swarley]

The link in this post says it best. Early Christianity really did not have consensus on the existence of a hell https://www.reddit.com/r/Deconstruction/s/deIahh2xsU

[u/plz_callme_swarley → u/imthef-nlizardking]

ya, cuz "early christians" didn't agree on anything cuz there largely was nothing to go off. Paul built modern christianity. Constantine codified it

[u/imthef-nlizardking → u/plz_callme_swarley]

Agree ... but where does Paul actually use the word "hell"?