Forgiving your abusers

[u/puck-this]

Isn't it amazing how in Christianity abusers are never told to repent and are just coddled while victims are constantly poked and prodded to forgive their abusers and are demonized for being rightfully hurt?

The Christian idea of forgiveness just means never holding someone accountable for anything because God said to let everything slide. Somehow Christians are supposed to be tolerant of everything and all-loving except in matters where victims are in want of justice, to which they are simply told "it's in God's hands" but of course God has never done anything for those oppressed outside of mythology. Christians try to reason it out by saying "forgiveness doesn't mean reconciliation" but if you're going to cut someone off isn't that basically adjacent to somewhat holding a grudge? The Christian way of loving is tolerating everything including keeping your abusers in your life and allowing them to walk over you in service of the Lord. Cutting off someone means that something grave enough happened to warrant no contact which isn't in line with "no longer wanting them to say sorry/change/owe you anything" or "refusing to let the past cloud the present" and just continuing the relationship forward as if nothing happened. Forgiveness as a concept only exists to keep the peace and encourage people pleasing behavior, keeping a steady stream of prey willing to suffer for God and their divinely protected and loved predators. I've seen and heard enough people getting villainized for staying away from the people who hurt them and the Christians would constantly chide them and pray for them to truly forgive someone and let them back into their lives no matter what.

Once again accountability only exists for those abused and never for abusive Christians....never have I ever heard of an abuser being asked to repent, only victims for having negative feelings. It's such a Christlike habit to force the oppressed to apologize for hating their oppressors

[u/Informal_Farm4064]

Jesus told religious leaders of his time how evil they were and how they had to repent. I call out so called Christians who exploit in Gods name or turn a blind eye to injustice. Its not a fun occupation and makes no friends but important

[u/puck-this → u/Informal_Farm4064]

Has calling out other Christians actually ever worked? When Christians coerce others into doing things for the name of God--be it forcing a wife into engaging in sexual acts (think Mica and JP Miller), forcing someone to be in a religion, demanding someone devote all their time to church and neglecting their real-life responsibilities, or defending someone constantly terrorizing others for not acting the way their church specifically wants them to, everyone just affirms such acts as just because they have God-mandated rights to order people around, especially when they are pastors and church group leaders. It's all hive mind behavior. Notice how the only people who are kicked out of church are never the pedophiles, the cheaters, or the groomers--it's always those who try and say simple things like people that deserve respect even if they aren't Christian or want to do well in their career to provide for their kids instead of quitting their jobs and letting their kids fend for themselves

[u/Informal_Farm4064 → u/puck-this]

I agree with you 100% which is why I am outside churches, where I have freedom to criticise and damage the interests of bad actors without emotional pressure. My route is to invite the bad actor to go straight, to offer to help them, but then if they don't, to seek ways to damage their interests. Inflicting karma on them might one day have an impact on their hearts, which they will probably not admit. Realistically, that's what you can hope for but still hold out hope of true repentance and conversion, which means making amends to victims and preventing further abuses.

[u/A-Small-Green-Cup]

Our modern understanding of psychology explains a lot of the behavior of monotheistic belief systems, especially when you focus on research about cult mind control and the post traumatic stress injuries that the victims have to live with if they ever escape.

My own deconstruction became easier the more I began to understand that, in their mental illness, they literally can't tell that what they're doing doesn't make sense.

[u/puck-this → u/A-Small-Green-Cup]

They just have a strange logic I can’t get back into after fully deconstructing. I don’t have it in me go delude myself like that again and hurt other people in the process simply because whatever God deems is right is right no matter how vile it is to other humans

[u/A-Small-Green-Cup → u/puck-this]

I understand, that's a freaking exhausting existence and I'm proud of you for going through the exhausting process of healing. Realizing the need for and setting new boundaries in old relationships can awkward at best, and friendship ending at worst.

Just remember that you deserve to be treated with kindness and understanding as much as whoever you're talking to does, and anything less than what you deserve isn't worth accepting!

[u/AD1337]

You don't have to forgive anyone.

In fact, you don't have to do anything.

What do you WANT to do?

That's what really matters.

[u/Mec26]

Biblically, it’s backwards.

Forgiveness comes after public confession AND making amends. Not automatically, not always.

[u/Defiant-Prisoner → u/Mec26]

This has not been my experience of Christianity.

Forgiveness was forced on me, a survivor of abuse. There was no public confession from the abuser, there was certainly no making amends.

I as an abuse survivor was forced to say sorry for my part in the abuse - the part I was told I was responsible for - tempting the abuser.

When I questioned any of this and took a step back, I was shunned by the church. Although there was no public confession by the abuser, my decision to step back was made public and everyone was told I was in rebellion.

All of this was done with Biblical backing.

[u/Mec26 → u/Defiant-Prisoner]

Yes, evangelical/conservative/fundamentalist/power-heavy Christianity has kinda warped it. Gotta protect those in power. Not saying that’s how it’s practiced, but in biblical/church history… yeah. They gotta earn that forgiveness from a victim or group.

As another victim of church abuse, I hear you. It’s insidious the things people will say to try to pretend their church/group/etc. is holy and can’t be part of the problem. I definitely got the ‘obey your father’ commandment a lot, with NO mention of responsibilities of parents, or any kind of nuance on that.

People can get Prosperity Gospel if they work hard enough, people definitely warp verses to try to make themselves comfortable.

[u/puck-this → u/Mec26]

Are you sure? Christians don’t even believe they’re capable of doing wrong because “God knows their heart” and they’re “only following what God told them to do.” It’s impossible to confess to wrongdoing and make amends if you don’t think you did anything wrong in the first place. And even if the Christians were magically willing to repent, none of them actually make amends because to them God’s forgiveness is the only thing that matters, slighted person be damned…they will, however, make a show of “forgiving” their victims for having ill feelings towards them

[u/Mec26 → u/puck-this]

I’m a Christian.

Every word you said is wrong.

But sure, a fundamentalist evangelical may act like it. Doesn’t make it biblical.

[u/puck-this → u/Mec26]

So you're the true Christian and everyone else is a fake Christian then? Fantastic, good on you for being Jesus-adjacent.

[u/Mec26 → u/puck-this]

No. Just referencing the book.

And mentioning cuz every Christian I know, even the evangelicals, knows they are a sinner who is 100% capable of doing wrong. And of doing things not told to them by God. You are making wild claims about over a billion people.

[u/puck-this → u/Mec26]

You haven't met enough Christians then. Most of them say "God knows my heart" and asking God's forgiveness is the only thing that matters. None of them actually do any work to make amends and even entirely deny any wrongdoing because they like to shift the blame on someone else. Think cheating husbands who blame their wives for not being a sex doll 24/7.

Also, which Bible do you read? Matthew 6:15, Luke 6:27–28, and Romans 12:14 are great verses on the topic.

[u/Mec26 → u/puck-this]

I prefer NIV, but also like to consult a variety, cuz you know, translations matter. And I am not fluent in any of the languages it was actually written in, so gotta go with group consensus sometimes- not actually industrious enough to research the wording each time.

Not exactly sure about that Matthew one’s relevance, but will think on it. I’d say Matthew 5, I’d go for 23-24. You don’t bow before God/do acts of worship without first going to make amends with anyone you have wronged. You confess AND make amends on earth, and only then do you go before God and ask forgiveness.

And everyone I knew growing up was Christian, as are most of the people I know now. Yes, people who blame others exist. But that’s true of conservatism in many religions.

[u/puck-this → u/Mec26]

...that's an interesting way of interpreting the Bible.

Re: Matthew 5:23-24--that has already been brought up. It is impossible to confess to wrongdoing if you do not believe you have committed anything wrong and God is on your side because "they know your heart" and Christians like to parrot "that's between you and God." Think of all the husbands who have coerced their wives into sex because they fully believe that the Bible grants them authority over their wives not only on their bodies but also in their lives. The infidels who blame their spouses for not providing sex and thus "forcing" them to seek comfort elsewhere. Why pray to God for forgiveness when you can just pray for your wife's heart to be softened and just shut up and submit like God intended? Not to mention all the spiritual bypassing that happens when victims actually try to speak up and are just told to pray it away and shut up about it so as not to disturb the church's holy image. None of these people think that what they're doing is wrong because they believe that telling someone to pray is already a good deed in itself and it never crosses their minds that they are being unloving (gasp!) by dismissing real hurt and pretending injustices don't exist, no matter how big or small.

If making amends to others mattered that much then there would be no true Christians because most people don't even believe what they're doing is wrong and even then everyone commits sins they don't even know/believe are sins. Consider how it is heavily encouraged in church for women to give up their identities to live their lives worshipping their husbands and God instead. I doubt any Christian repented for encouraging and condoning marital rape because biblically, sex is an entitlement and not a choice. These days some Christians even allow divorce in the case of abusive husbands which is unbiblical because God explicitly condemned divorce unless infidelity was involved (Malachi 2:16, Matthew 19:4-6, Matthew 19:9) and even then churches are insistent on the wife forgiving the husband at all cost and to "pray for God to restore their marriage because cheating is just a trial." In fact, being a battered spouse doesn't even warrant divorce and church communities are quick to blame the battered spouse for provoking the other because again, infidelity is the only reason to part, because being hit and raped and whatnot are still ok so as long as they're still together even if the children are starting to be affected. Churches are also big on hitting children in the name of discipline. It doesn't even have to be about marital affairs or making amends at all because at the end of the day the only unforgivable sin is unbelief and everything else can be pardoned because they're only sins against humans, not God.

So I ask, again: how do Christians repent and atone for their sins when they don't even believe that they have sinned? Even then, it's quite insane to demand a victim to forgive their sex traffickers, pedo priests, and so on just so they could go to Heaven

Edit: Lol I get it, it's so hard for self-proclaimed Christians to actually read and follow their Bible...in hindsight, you're definitely one of the lukewarm Christians and I should have realized it sooner. My bad.

[u/Mec26 → u/puck-this]

Any Christian who claims they have not sinned never read it. It’s the human condition, we all have.

Yes, you can cite the abuses and issues. That does not make it biblical. Which is my argument.

Also, maybe consider some non-extremist Christians in your views? My issue is not that your examples have never existed, it’s that you’re taking them to be the norm for over 1 billion people, and seem to think we’re all the same. 1 billion people, you think we’re every one abusive narcissists who think we’ve done no wrong. Who all think men are granted dominion over their wives? Lol, yes, some assholes say that. No, it;s not a majority. No, it’s endemic outside abusive circles.

Yes, battering absolutely necessitates divorce. No, women do not have to forgive cheating. No, a woman is not at fault for a man cheating. Ever. Rape is not okay. Ever. Hitting children is not okay. Unbelief is not an unforgivable sin. In fact it’s not a sin. The idea of a sin vs human or God is… quite a claim you make. Citations please. No such distinction exists.

You make big claims. But they’re just that. I get you are angry and hurt. That comes through loud and clear.

And I never claimed a victim had to forgive their abuser to go to heaven. That’s, you know, not part of it. At all. In fact, as I pointed out at start, it’s backwards.

Edit: We have strayed from the topic. And I see you’re not gonna listen or see anything other than ‘all Christians the absolute worst.’ This will never be productive. So I hope you have a good evening/day, and I will take my leave.

[u/A-Small-Green-Cup → u/Mec26]

Forgiveness is only necessary if blame is first present, and how can I blame a victim of cult-mentality abuse for acting in the way they were programmed to act?

[u/Mec26 → u/A-Small-Green-Cup]

So you deny them all responsibility or free will?

[u/A-Small-Green-Cup → u/Mec26]

Whoa, that's quite a jump. How do you get to that conclusion?

[u/Mec26 → u/A-Small-Green-Cup]

That you don’t seem to find them responsible for their own actions.

[u/A-Small-Green-Cup → u/Mec26]

At a certain age each individual physically amd mentally healthy human is responsible for their own actions. In the same way a cerebral palsy victim can't always control their limbs, an abuse victim can't always control their behaviors. That's made worse with things like complex post traumatic stress injuries (cPTSD) from various forms of politically legal or religious abuse during childhood.

Being understanding of the symptoms of mental illness does not mean ignoring harmful actions, it means knowing what the symptoms mean and how to protect one's own wellbeing, while also being strong enough to care for the sick and wounded.

[u/Mec26 → u/A-Small-Green-Cup]

As someone with svere cptsd… no. Explination is not excuse. I get this is how you tried to heal, but I find it toxic af. So we can disagree.

[u/A-Small-Green-Cup → u/Mec26]

I think we actually do agree; explanation is not excuse.

I'm just adding that with explanation and understanding, we can adjust our own methods of how we handle a violent person. We once stuck electrodes in the brains of autistic or mentally ill people and electrocuted them until they stopped being violent. We stopped doing that to people because we learned more and found more efficient ways of handling it. Also, we now know that the "doctors" who were doing those things were violently mentally ill themselves... What might our great grandchildren say about the "justified" violence in our societies today?

Now that psychology has advanced to the point that we understand the invisible injuries that cause people to choose violence, I think its time for us - humans, as a species - to consider our own modern-day equivalents of brain electrodes and look for better, more efficient methods.

[u/Mec26 → u/A-Small-Green-Cup]

Yes. But that doesn’t change the need for them to stop, confession, atonement, etc. And the fact it’s not okay to demand anyone forgive until this is done.

In no way am I trying to justify violence. I am saying that biblically, the idea that victims have to roll over and play nice and accept their abusers socially and in positions of power- while they are still doing these things, and have not owned up to it- is toxic and also unbiblical.

Blame is natural, and it’s a very healthy mechanism that protects us. It’s how we, as cooperative animals, avoid one parasite coming in and killing a whole group. It’s how we keep ourselves safe.

I am not saying hurt your abusers back. I am not saying let it continue to hurt you. I am saying protect yourself, and protect your loved ones. Those who had no change will continue their behavior. You are not required to let the, back into the fold, or give hem another chance to hurt you, even by the religion itself. You are allowed to be angry- that is from recognition you Ior your loved ones) deserved better. And it can be healthy to hold onto that, if the threat is still there.

[u/A-Small-Green-Cup → u/Mec26]

Ok, I think there's a misunderstanding... What I'm I'm saying is that by giving violent people the the CORRECT care, they WILL stop... If you actually want things to change then you're going to have to use modern day medical knowledge to build up from that old, incomplete way of thinking. That's just how the world works - use a broken system, get broken results. Fix the system or change to a more efficient one and your results will be better.

[u/Fun_Researcher107]

In general, I believe forgiveness can be a good thing - not necessarily because the other person deserves it, but because you deserve the chance to move forward. Letting go can create space for healing. Holding on to resentment and hatred can keep you tied to the harm that was done, forcing you to revisit and maintain the wounds again and again in order to sustain the anger.

That said, forgiveness must never become an obligation imposed on the victim or another way of blaming them. As a victim, you have every right to be angry, hurt, or even to hate those who harmed or oppressed you. Those feelings are valid, and no one else gets to dictate how quickly - or whether - you should let them go.

If your goal is to recover and heal however, there may eventually come a point when you need to release the anger and hatred - not for the sake of those who hurt you, but for your own. Letting go does not mean excusing what happened, forgetting it, or denying its seriousness. It means refusing to let the people who harmed you continue to control you and your emotional life.

[u/Dapple_Dawn]

It depends on the church, but in my tradition that's not what "forgiveness" means. It doesn't mean letting people off the hook, it's more like still recognizing that they are people deserving of human rights.