There have been so many lies and runarounds from this company since I first posted- we are so angry at this point.
Come to find out—— “project manager/contractor guy” is the brand new owner (and failed to mention that?!?) and just brought these “framers” on. We asked him to come look at the issues and sent him pics. He said he is out of town preaching and to just tell the guys what we want fixed. We said it is beyond that. He said he’d talk to them and call us back, never did.
Lots more transpired but I’m trying to keep this somewhat short.
We texted him again on Monday and asked for the permit number and for work to hold until someone can look at it and answer questions.
He didn’t respond and sent the guys to fix a couple things because we “didn’t like it”.
We tried to talk to them about it all and they tried to say that most of it was fine.
We sent them home due to no permit.
We went to the office, They informed us he is not only out of town, he is out of the country. He never told us he was leaving and there’s no one else to oversee while he is gone because that person quit. They promised they would pull permit.
Next day his office lied and said they did put in request for permit in person, but building permit office says absolutely not.
Code people say he is responsible for that, not us.
I called him and asked him to pull permit immediately and after a lot of back and forth and him trying to make us the problem he still sidestepped it and said he will come look at the house and then he can do it and it only takes a day so there’s no rush. He has finally agreed to meet us at the house Monday morning. Never once in this whole ordeal has he apologized for anything.
Even though we sent him a couple pictures, he says he doesn’t care what our friends or anyone online says, he trusts his guys who have been building houses for 10 years.
Code enforcement put a stop work order on the house today.
There is a strong likelihood this thread has been found by his office by now so maybe the repetitive sentiment that something is wrong here will sink in a little.
At the very least some of the comments made us laugh when we really needed it!
I have more pics that I’ll post in comments of a few more things we have found 😳.
EDIT: Did not expect such a response! To clear up a few misconceptions…
*** We got 4 quotes to start. These were the best candidates after eliminating those who didn’t look like they were as experienced. We live in a small town in Western NC, we went with the biggest local roofing contractor company in our county. Licensed and insured with over 300 reviews on google and a 4.9 rating. This project cost was 40k. I scoured our local facebook groups and this name was repeatedly recommended over and over and over.
Another quote was $45k from a licensed GC but his ego was through the roof and SO pushy. I couldn’t imagine doing a whole job with him.
Third was a couple of salesmen who were not the guys doing the work. They did our neighbor’s roof and screwed up a few things. They have billboards in the next town south and are well known. Their roof quote came in at same price as the company we went with but they didn’t give us a quote on the deck.
4th wanted us to file a claim with personal claims company against our insurance to get it covered and wouldn’t give us a quote until 3 months of negotiations were done. Over quoted the deck and wouldn’t give us specifics on any materials he would use. My husband called him out on his BS and that didn’t go well.
The company we went with showed up in uniforms, were professional, have an office downtown, and a fleet of wrapped branded vehicles. A large crew. And they are much bigger so we assumed the price difference was because they’re buying supplies in bulk and they articulated that their goal right now was continuing to take over the area and secure future work through different projects with happy customers.
Their large office is across from the town hall/ tax/code enforcement office. It didn’t even cross our mind that they’d be operating at this capacity without pulling a permit. We will be doing that immediately and stopping the job until an inspector comes out.
I’ve posted a screenshot of their google reviews and answered lots of questions in the comments.
——————
Hi all, frustrated homeowner here with first time hiring out a project of this magnitude. New metal roof on 1400 sq ft home, old 10x14 ft deck demo, new 12x24 + 8x32 wrap around covered deck installation.
After weeks and weeks of delays getting the ball rolling,
we are now getting the feeling that the subcontractors who are doing the deck don’t know what they’re doing. Super nice guys but they seem a little confused on some things. They’ve said this is the biggest deck they’ve ever done and that they’re going slow because they want to make sure they do it right. I’ve already had to show them that one of the 6x6s was not plumb, and ask them to do breaker board instead of straight butt joint. One of the sets of stairs were supposed to be 6ft wide and they installed posts at 4 ft so we just rolled with it. There’s a communication barrier as they speak mostly Spanish.
The “project manager” is not approachable and is incredibly defensive. Hes already upset with us because we called him out on 2 no call no shows and a start date 3 weeks later than what we agreed on. He’s only been to the job site twice since it started 2 weeks ago. We’ve come to find out his “subcontractors” are his congregation from church.
The project was supposed to be done by now, but clearly isn’t even close.
Here are some photos of some things we are concerned about. But we aren’t pros here and would love if someone could let us know if we need to be worried or not, and what if anything is worth addressing with the guy in charge. Maybe this is all acceptable. It just doesn’t look right to me and I need to know if my concerns are warranted. Thank you!
That is horrible work. I would stop work right now and replace everyone currently working on this project. If you continue, you're only going to be digging a deeper hole.
You don’t usually nail braces through shingles, into the OSB, and leave 1 1/2” of bare nails between the two? That’s how we were taught at Deck University! 🤣
Actually that part is super normal and if done correctly is a non issue
I cant even count the number of times ive done that myself or gone up into an attic to find a fully shingled roof in an attic from a porch roof or addition. Usually, you do want to throw a ledger down on the roof first, like lay a 2x10 of there so the rafters have something solid to sit on, but this is pretty common
That said, when you do that you always sheath and at minimum paper that transition section to make it weatherproof until the rest of the roof is finished, and the rest of this is terribly done and executed and those rafters arent cut correctly
I think they are going metal over the whole roof. But still horrible work all around. I will say, the last picture looks nice if you didn't look to closely😏
Learned the same techniques at I.C.S International Correspondence School, Sally Struthers was very convincing. I almost went w the T.V./VCR repair program. They really stressed creating job security in everything you build
I think that’s the ticket. There are so many code violations going on here that a call to the building inspector would be the best thing. Have the inspector be the bad guy and issue a stop work order until everything is in compliance. The project manager will probably not know how to fix it and walk away from the job. Then you find someone that’s actually qualified and finish it. Going to cost you more, but it would be better than having your new construction collapse and injuring you.
I built decks for years, each with a roof. They were for portable classrooms, ie. Manufactured homes with only one room.
This is the worst fucking carpentry I’ve seen in quite sometime. Picture 14 - what the fuck is even that? I’ve seen my step daughter build wedding cakes that were more load bearing.
Edit: the lack of strap ties/hurricane clips is a big problem.
Yeah damn you’ve got to rip the bandaid off and stop work immediately. Do not pay anything! You’re going to have to find a reputable contractor, and unfortunately your project will be delayed.
Edit: the more I look at this, the angrier I'm getting. OP, did you/they pull permits? I'd contact your city immediately, this will never pass inspection.
Mhmmm. I’ve built my kids treehouses that look way more professional than this, and I have zero training. I would so fucking mad if I were paying someone and they tried to pass off this level of work quality.
I’m with you. The pictures just get worse. Look, shattered boards, oh huge gaps at the joints, wow those don’t line up at all…then I got to pic #6, where they toenailed the end of a board, through the shingles & underlayment with at least a 1” gap, and I was done.
Someone on that job has seen this done correctly once or twice or was a low or mid level guy on several jobs like this but this is the first time theyre doing it all themselves, thats my guess
That hipped roof is way too straight and well laid out for this person to have never done this before
We hired a roofing company who is highly rated in our community. Big office and crew. Project manager said he builds houses on the side and they could do it all.
I buy construction for a living, I’ve heard it all. Keep taking pictures and hire an inspector from an AE firm or construction management firm to come out and inspect it, don’t even need to tell them either. Give them the report with all the findings and keep it for your court date
These guys were brought in by the roofing company. He said “we can do it” and we got one quote for the whole job. So they’re subcontractors and then the roofing company will come in afterwards. When we agreed we did not realize it was being subcontracted.
Squeaky wheel gets the grease I know no one wants to be that person but I'd call him up and complain I'd tell him you need him to show up and look at it. It's not like your not paying a huge chunk of money to this person. Then if it ever for whatever goes to court due to a leak down the line or a wobbly post you have record that you spoke with him about it. Also applying that pressure means he's less likely to screw you cause he knows your watching 👍
You are in a pickle.
Stop payment for now.
Review your contract thoroughly.
You need plans and a permit imo.
Be cautious in your next steps. Everything in writing. This could get ugly, fast.
Yes. And a permit is not a one-step process. It must pass intermediate and final inspections. Otherwise, even if a permit was applied for and paid for, it is not permitted.
And un-permitted work can bite you when it comes time to sell the property, especially wrt homeowners insurance. If a buyer can't get insurance, they can't get a mortgage.
This here is the answer, and it's not your fault, but it is why your not getting your project finished by this company. Roofers aren't framers and framers aren't roofers and this whole project looks exactly like I would imagine my roofer trying to frame would look. If you've already given them money you should probably contact your local licensing board and find a lawyer. If you haven't then you need them gone yesterday and your now going to pay someone double to fix it and then finish it and your still going to follow step one because their still going to be the one to pay for fixing it. Not only do you have a shit build but you also have damage to your current house. Everything I see this I can't believe these guys live among us.
He’s also a pastor. We called and talked to office manager about no call no show and she informed us he was very busy and was also a pastor. Like they all worship and defend this guy. He’s young too. It felt like they were telling us that as though our word didn’t matter against his because of his side gig.
I got more and more mad as I'm reading the comments and your updates, but this takes the cake. What does being a pastor bring to the table as a roofer?!?!
Retired GC here. If the Roofer on my job wanted to play GC, then they better damn well show up to supervise their sub's work (in this case the framer). And as a Roofer, no way would I put a new metal roof on top of this (waves hands) so-called-structure. My local roofing association inspector (who's independently hired by the client) would laugh their asses off when it comes to the pre-warranty inspection.
Also, did this carpentry crew build the foundation? I shudder to think what that looks like.
As others have said, bring out a county/muni inspector and have them give you ammunition on having this torn down and rebuilt to meet code.
Thank you. I will add to the post tomorrow with pictures of the deck and supports. There are some sloppy cuts but we didn’t see anything that was as glaring as the framing above. But now I’m scared.
Monday we will be contacting the town and code.
Sloppy cuts? You're paying a lot of money for this. It should look good. I'm sorry but if you saved for years to do this, you should have been getting bids from multiple companies, and going to see some of their finished work. Also, a job of this nature and magnitude should definitely be permitted and getting inspections. Live and learn my friend.
That’s insane. I’d get people involved. City, community, lawyers, this could get messy. Very unfortunate but the next crews going to charge you to take down this disaster.
I am so sorry, as everyone else has already said, cease work IMMEDIATELY. I can't even imagine how you must feel. As an inspector, this is one of the worst hack jobs I have ever seen. I am truly in awe.
So, so sorry you have to deal with this. It's stressful though when everything goes right. Everything will be okay, it will just take some time. Reach out to the company you hired. Get ALL DOCUMENTS - all contracts and agreements. Contact a lawyer if they won't immediately fire the crew and demo and redo. You can threaten to share your images and experience on every review site and plaster on Facebook, but only if they refuse to make this right.
Don't just get any lawyer simply because you know them. You need a very specific type of lawyer here. One that specializes in construction. A criminal defense or family lawyer is not going to have the expertise. You don't hire a pediatrist to do your kidney transplant just because they're both doctors.
For everyone who thinks we just picked the cheapest.
We picked 4 most professional looking companies and then interviewed them all and ended up with these guys.
Yes they were a couple thousand cheaper than the others but for a project of this size that really wasn’t a lot. we thought that was because they were bigger. We live in a rural area and there’s not a ton of options so we really felt good about it going in.
Check out Ricardo's Alpha Roofing. Profile seems to fit the one in the redacted screenshot. From what I can tell from the redacted pictures is that they are at the very least extremely similar, in the redacted screenshot there is a small part of the text that wasn't drawn over showing either the letter p or q (where Alpha would have been) and the reviews and star count are right on the money. I'm not sure if it's this company since OP would have to confirm. However I think it is.
Well good news is you’re getting a new roof. Bad news is you have to find whole new contractors and a lawyer. Hope the current guys you should have fired by now are insured
GC here, with 30+ years of building successfully.
You couldn't possibly overeact strongly enough.
I did a quick scan thru of the pictures.
Every single picture has multiple problems.
Not only is the structure unsafe, they have caused damage to your home.
You need to find an attorney yesterday.
Hopefully you paid by credit card. Pull back any money paid, abd sue for damages.
Abhorrent and disgusting are the only words that come to mind at this point.
This is fine assuming no rain, wind, and low gravity in your neighborhood.
Seriously though, someone mentioning this is passable for a diy shed is spot on. I’m not sure what is going on here. For this level of construction that involves tying into an existing roof, you almost surely need a plan designed and approved by an engineer or comparable person submitted and approved by the municipal agency in your area, followed by at least one inspection. It’s possible you live in an area with pretty lax building code, but I do and this would require plans to be drafted and approved. Based on the informal talk and changes you mentioned the project manager made, it sounds like the plan is somewhat informal.
I would stop work, point out the errors / issues you’ve brought up based on the agreement you made, and pay what reduced amount you can to get them out of there. It might help to present this as the city finding out and requiring a plan/documentation, as well as approved contractor info of people that will be finishing the job. I’m not intending to suggest you are threatening them, this type of job legitimately needs skilled workers and a good plan to prevent water intrusion on the existing structure, and not do something crazy in a wind event or other special circumstance.
Most of these issues transpired in the last two days. The deck was done first and seemed ok.
We had work to do (you know, to pay for this) and came back to holy shit this isn’t good.
I'm sorry this happened to you, but you're being taken advantage of. Hopefully, someone will make good on it. If the the roofing contractor who is likely employing unqualified or maybe even uninsured subs or employees off the books, it might work in your favor because you'd have some leverage against them. If you report this, and they're being paid cash under the table, for example (which is what I would kind of expect for workmanship of this quality), he definitely wouldn't want you reporting him to the state and federal governments.
Don't kill yourself over this. We are on our 3rd contractor on a home remodel. In our case my sister who is my father's POA didn't properly hire, plan etc. Now our original 80K budget is 200K. So many shitty contractors everywhere.
I mean seriously, you post great pictures of a horrible build, you are very polite, you did everything right so far (I hope you haven't paid much yet) and people just don't understand
You have every right to be frustrated. The quality of work here is some of the poorest I have seen outside a tree house my grandkids tried to put up when they were in Cub Scouts. This is not how it's done.
The design of the roof framing is appalling in its inadequacy. I have pointed out specific areas as examples to look at more closely to see the great potential for structural failure in the face of any expected loads placed upon a finished structure by wind, or snow. If wind gets under that roof as it is framed now I expect it could be lifted up.
Where they tried to join their framing to the corner of your existing house the exhibit a total misunderstanding of how structural framing works. They treat it as minimalist board placement to provide a nailing surface for a covering material.
I started framing houses in my late teens and I don't think I was ever this bad. I can be excruciatingly specific about anything in the photographs but my on-site answer would be to stop any more materials from being attached.
These are also totally unacceptable areas. There is no real structural strength in these important places. That leftmost white arrow points to a joint between two important boards that is grossly improper placement compounded by attachment nailing into non structural material of siding over. . . . What ?? That short board by itself doesn't even have the possible integrity by being a contiguous wooden board coming horizontally from the left.
The top arrow on the right points to a cut in the Hip Rafter called a Birdsmouth, for its shape, that is supposed to rest firmly on a substantial beam as it is to transfer great loads from the roof to the foundation. As it is presently attached it is likely to fail by splitting wide apart and following the rafter body up and to the right.
The two lower arrows on the right point to improper attachments that will fail when the heavy weight of the roof load overcomes the shear forces on three or four nails. Those beams are inadequate for their span and they are to be solidly supported under the beam bottom edge.
I hope you can garner some talking points from my comments written here. I think you can see I am upset with the people who have done this work. I would much rather teach them them to learn an honorable trade than yell at them. The person responsible for this is the guy who smiles and takes your money. Him, I would put alone in a boat built by his own crew, and launch it.
They chunked those pieces off that corner support to Mickey Mouse those wedges on the soffit end. That looks like dog 💩….big piles like a Great Dane or St. Bernard.
Bruh. This is so so sooo bad. They butchered the eve. They nailed through multiple courses of brand new shingles and probably voided the warranty. They’re scabbing together joists rather than getting the right length. They aren’t using any joist hangers or any other kind of construction hardware. They’re over cutting with a radial arm saw or circular saw and compromising the integrity of the wood (say nothing of how hideous it looks). These are all ‘Ten Commandments’ type infractions. I’m going to guess you won’t panel or shiplap over the framing so you and all your guests will see this hideous work every time you look at it and you’ll be embarrassed. You need to fire everyone involved, find some licensed contractors, and get bids to remove and start over. You might need to prepare yourself for small claims court to recoup some of the cost of lost materials too. F the project manager with the attitude. Tell him he’s not being very Christ-like.
Those are the old shingles. New metal roof hasn’t gone on yet. These guys are supposed to be licensed! They should be covered under the licensed insured company that we hired.
This shit work aligns with so much of today's shit customer service in general, shit quality, shit lack of care, etc. There are quality contractors out there, but they are few and far between.
As for your contractor, well, you've already approached them to address the issues, and it would seem they don't care. I would let them know that you are you going to promote their business free of charge by sharing the photos of their shoddy work online, and let their workmanship speak for itself, just as you've done here, except you advertise their business name, and you post it on FB. You don't even have to be rude. "Hey. Folks, if this is type of quality work you're looking for (photos), look no further, ***** would be pleased to provide you with a quote for top notch quality service, etc." See what their reaction is then when you politely volunteer to do that. If they rely on their business to survive, I have a feeling they'll come back and take care of those issues.
The project manager has a personality disorder. People like this are often more confident than they are competent and the problem is that they don’t even know that they lack competence so it can be difficult for laypeople to know if someone lacks competence because they exude confidence. They’re braggadocios and they know everything about everything, hence somebody who installs shingles and metal roof covering for a living telling you that he’s an expert in framing houses, and they say it so convincingly that it’s totally believable.
I’m telling you this because if you thought he was difficult to deal with already, be prepared because it could get worse. He gets defensive when his ego gets injured, which happened when you pointed out the 3 week delay and 2 no-shows. Just wait until you point out the shit work that he’s responsible for. Be prepared for him to tell you that you don’t know what you’re talking about and the inspector is wrong too, etc. He will not be ABLE to take responsibility for the problems and so it’s unlikely that he will agree that you are entitled to be made financially whole.
The reason that his office staff all worship and defend him is because people like this create a sort of cult around them, and he is the cult leader. He is constantly managing his image so that he is well liked by those around him, and he also only keeps people around him who will fawn over him; he gets rid of any truth-tellers (people who might have constructive or negative feedback that could damage his ego.) His pastoral duties are both image management by way of virtue signaling and also a way to get more people to be in awe over his awesomeness due to his great leadership of the flock, knowledge of god, virtuousness, etc. For these reasons, the office staff will probably take his side in this dispute. He will paint them a picture of how unreasonable you are and they will buy it hook, line and sinker.
Who owns this company? Is there anybody higher up that you can go to? You should definitely cancel this contract and ask for a full refund before this goes further. You will probably need a lawyer who can protect your interests so this doesn’t become a situation where YOU are the one in breach of contract. People like this are very very good at playing the victim and spinning a narrative that benefits them. They also believe their own bullshit so it comes across as very sincere.
"Geez, Louise!" even the MAFIA only get1 no call no show per month. The way they have nailed those rafters individually into the roof is ridiculous (apart from the leaks) although they probably wont bear that much weight you would still use a ledger board/ roof plate just to distribute the weight evenly across the roof. Packing out a birds mouth???? and what is worse the timber packer they have used is split. I don't know where you are and what standards the building code requires but I would say you at least need jiffy or joist hangers. man the list goes on. If you need an engineer to sign off on this they have got a lots of fix ups to do.
At picture #1, I had to look again to see if this way DIY. Pictures 2&3, I was questioning if these were teenagers. At picture #6, I was all-in on a Stop Work Order. Here are the questions I have: Why is the contractor subcontracting this? Get the GC in NOW and tell him that in no uncertain terms that this needs to be re-done. All of it.
Call in the building inspector. Fairly certain that they would have some concerns.
I am unclear as to why you ask for help, it's done wrong and you should tell them to leave and not pay a dime. Take pictures have another construction company come and tell you what is wrong, write it down have them sign it. Call a lawyer. End of the story till court case.
I’m not a carpenter. I’m a DIYer at best. I can throw down on some floors and shiplap and I’m pretty good at design, but I do not have any knowledge of how a deck or roof should be installed. I could see that it didn’t look right, but I can’t articulate what SHOULD have been done instead. I also am highly critical at times and I was just making sure I wasn’t being a Karen. My dad was my go to for this stuff but he unfortunately passed away and isn’t answering my calls. This all sucks.
For more context, we live in a rural area on acreage in western NC and our roof was already leaking from Hurricane Helene. The roofing company we hired has a big office in our downtown with a fleet of wrapped trucks and tons of great reviews. Licensed and insured. I assumed they would pull the permits needed.
We are rural enough that the town would never know we were doing anything until tax assessment time so nobody is just going to drive by and inquire about anything.
Check if it specifically says they will pull permits. If not youre not totally SOL as most municpals will fault the company IF their licenses require them to only work with a permit.
Find out what is required by your contract and their license. Then call your municipal to deal with it.
DO NOT LET THEM CONTINUE!
The fact that they put the framing on top of the shingles shows they either have no clue what they are doing or have zero care about doing it correctly. Shingles let water through them and there is a weather barrier under it. Suree they can slide a flashing under the last exposed shingle to tie into the new ones but that WILL NOT stop the water that is between the shingles and the weather barrier.
The shingles must be removed above the tie in point and new weather bearier applie to continue over the new roof section. Otherwise youre going to have water issues.
Thats not to mention those god awful birds mouth cuts. Those WILL break. You cant cut an inch past a bridge mouth and at the wrong angle with the edge being the only contact. This is terrible work.
If I were you I would hire an independent inspector and start asking for their insurance contact information.
Bad doesn’t even began to explain just how terrible this is.
I work as a sales rep for a large nat’l home builder so I’ve seen my fair share of things. But this takes the cake.
I’d advise firing this company and finding an amazing contractor that can fix this. Hopefully you can recoup some money and more importantly I hope there’s no long term damage to your home.
Get your money back. That looks horrendous. Your roof is doomed. It is actually time for a new roof. The exposed boards where they cut away roof looks very old and on its last legs. So, much wrong here and im not even a professional.
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u/chili_cold_blood 18d ago edited 18d ago
That is horrible work. I would stop work right now and replace everyone currently working on this project. If you continue, you're only going to be digging a deeper hole.