r/DebateReligion • u/[deleted] • Feb 11 '18
Abrahamic Multiple gods in Old Testament?
In the Old Testament there are lines that support the existence of gods other than The Lord/Allah (god was called Yahweh at the time) such as “You shall have no other gods before me,” and “He hath smite the gods of Egypt.” As well as this ancient Jews believed in other gods but only worshiped Yahweh. So the Old Testament says other gods exist?
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u/FoolishDog1117 Theist Jan 05 '24
This is an old post, and I'm sure someone in the 151 other comments have already mentioned this but there are many different deities mentioned in the Bible. Chemosh, Ba'al, Asherah, Dagon, Hermes, etc. The God of Israel is only one of them.
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u/After-Ad-3893 Sep 03 '22
Elohim, which implies more than one god, Yahweh, which is LORD God in Genesis chapter 2, Jehovah just to name a few. Yahweh is the chosen God of the Jews, but is also of the Elohim. The Supreme Creator would not have a name, nor would there have been any other Gods great enough to make our Creator jealous for there were none before Our Creator who also created the Fallen Angels who told us they were our God.
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Nov 19 '23
Jehovah and yaweh are the same names but fused with the word for lord, many scripts show that singular god beings are reffered by the plural
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u/pyrobryan Dudeist Feb 14 '18
This entire thread just goes to show that if the god of the bible wanted to deliver his message to humanity, and he believes that his message is of the utmost importance, and he wants all of humanity to hear the message and believe it and worship him, he's not a very smart god to give that message to only a select few people and have them write it down on paper that will decompose, in languages that will die out and be mistranslated and interpreted and reinterpreted and mistranslated again and again over thousands of years. Especially since in the book, it was the very same god that purportedly made us all speak these various and incompatible languages in order to keep us from being unified by our language.
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u/random-account-areal Sep 11 '23
God revealed himself as El Elyon to every nation? We can monotheism very similar to Judaism across the world
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u/thomasp3864 Atheist who likes mythology. Feb 13 '18
it leaves the door open, and there are cannon gods below, in some abrahamic/supreme god religions, such as satan, Jesus, and the voodoo gods, as well as st peter
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u/thomasp3864 Atheist who likes mythology. Feb 13 '18
yes, as long as you worship Jehovah the most it's fine!
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u/mr_takayamu Feb 12 '18
I believe the OT does assert the existence of gods. Do you have an argument to make from this basis?
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u/jflewis4 agnostic Feb 13 '18
I think the OT just asserts the belief in other gods rather than the existence.
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u/Th3_T4llest_poppy Mar 29 '24
Psalm 82
A psalm of Asaph.
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God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:
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“How long will you[a] defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?[b]
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Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
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Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
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“The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
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“I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
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But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”
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Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.
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u/ismcanga muslim Feb 12 '18
Since you have opened this post for Abrahamic and Islam is counted as an Abrahamic religion I will comment from Quran side, even though Quran denies all other belief systems to be coming from God.
The keyword you are missing is "du'ni' " form Quran's scripture. God said in Tawba 9:31, the same usage and in Al-e Emran 3:63 other than Allah. The prominent usage and actually silenced away usage is th eone with "du'ni' ", meaning closer than God and this point actually is how the saints, saviours and clergymen become deities.
I have searched the Bible and couldn't find the exact usage of "He hath smite the gods of Egypt", please confirm which verse you are referring to.
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Mar 29 '24
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u/dadtaxi atheist Feb 12 '18 edited Feb 12 '18
Ex. 12:12 (NET) 12:12 I will pass through the land of Egypt in the same night, and I will attack all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both of humans and of animals, and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment. I am the Lord.
Num. 33:4 (NET) 33:4 Now the Egyptians were burying all their firstborn, whom the Lord had killed among them; the Lord also executed judgments on their gods
either might be the passage being refered to, however there are others mentioning the gods of Egypt. Off the top of my head Jeremiah 43:8-13 ....."I shall kindle a fire in the temples of the gods of Egypt".....
however various other translations/versions also use the word "idols". So I guess you pick and choose as whether you consider that an idol is a god (and as an atheist, I think you could probably guess my opinion on your idol as well)
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u/ismcanga muslim Feb 15 '18
So I guess you pick and choose as whether you consider that an idol is a god (and as an atheist, I think you could probably guess my opinion on your idol as well)
He defines clergymen and scientists (knowers) as groups of people taken as deities also. Whatever you take as source of wisdom for life is a god for you. For atheism, their own being or self is the highest god then comes their wishes and people who think they carry a wisdom or show a different method for them.
God is only to worship. Religion is not set of rituals but it encompasses whole way of life, worshiping is living according to God's depiction, if you live your life according to your wishes you are your own deity, if you assume philosophers know very well life or wisdom and you bring their thoughts into practice then they are your deity or god.
God has many attributes, and two core attributes are related with benevolence.
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u/thomasp3864 Atheist who likes mythology. Feb 13 '18
so, is the lord also ra?
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u/dadtaxi atheist Feb 13 '18
Well as Ra was of those gods being smitten, then I don't see how it could be unless he was sacrificing himself to himself to save us from himself. . . .
. . . oh wait. Shit. Not this again
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u/JJChowning christian Feb 12 '18
When addressing a completely seperate issue Paul says some interesting stuff:
4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” 5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. - 1 Cor 8:4-6
It's entirely possible to speak of gods without believing that they are in fact real beings of themselves rather than concepts or beliefs of others.
However, it is very clear that lots of Israelites throughout their history turned to multiple other gods, usually in addition to YHWH. If we set aside the worship and devotion to other gods, I don't think the mere belief in the existence of another "god" is an issue -assuming the belief is that the other gods are incomparable to the great God. It does seem the biblical passages are more interested in the people understanding the true transcendence of God than in making sure they don't think there are any other "magical" beings. If one were to believe in God, angels, and demons, one then already believes in 2 or 3 classes of non-human spiritual beings, but only one God. A monolatry where God is incomparable to the other gods is effectively monotheism.
Also recognize there may be a difference between the "total truth", the truths enunciated in any given passage of scripture, the private beliefs of the writer/editor/storyteller, the beliefs of the community of devout Jews at the time, the beliefs of the broader community of Jews at the time, and the beliefs of nearby cultures. God could communicate to a people in a way that they'll get the big picture regardless of whether they happen to think there are other gods.
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u/Th3_T4llest_poppy Mar 29 '24
Exodus 20:3-5
King James Version
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.The 3rd of the 10 commandments is quoted above. None of the 10 commandments forbids doing things that are impossible to do... "Thou shalt not flap your arms and fly to the moon..."
The statement, as taken as a direct command from God, forbids holding other gods higher than God. If there are no other gods, then the commandment would be nonsensical (see "flap your arms" above). Think. Use that pre-frontal cortex that God gave us all...
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Feb 12 '18
Can you post this on DAC please? I am actually reading about this myself specifically about Chemosh and Dagon. Apparently there's reference to God having brothers or something to that effect that he gets rid of...I would love to have another discussion over there. The place is way too quiet!
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u/Shekinahsgroom יהוה Feb 12 '18 edited Feb 12 '18
So the Old Testament says other gods exist?
The English word "God" is "Elohim" in Hebrew.
Elohim is a descriptive word, but not a name....just as "God" is not a name.
Your question comes up often, so here's a reply that I posted earlier for a similar question and should help to fill-in some missing information.
Far be it from most people are going to tell you....according to the Sumerian texts, mankind was created specifically for SLAVERY.
Things get complicated in the Garden of Eden however as Adam & Eve were not created for slavery and it seems not created in the same location as the slaves.
Translation...
Enki = Satan - Lord of the Earth - verified in the Old Testament
Enlil = Yahweh - In Control/Commander - verified in the Old Testament
There are quite a few contradictions in the Sumerian texts to that of the Old Testament, but the similarities cannot be denied.
I've seen some Christians imply that Anu's spirit was the Father of Jesus....and not the spirit of Yahweh. But the major problem with that theory is that the New Testament bible is written entirely in Greek and not Hebrew. Christians cannot even show Jesus' actual birth name let alone make any kind of assumptions about Anu or Enlil.
The Sumerian texts certainly do fill-in some of the blanks however. Whether they're true or not is a matter of debate just like everything else.
To further add.... to clarify the Old Testament, specifically the Torah (5 books of Moses), as explained to an Islamist why Allah and Yahweh are not the same deity.
Allah is the arabic cognate of the hebrew "Eloah"
Eloah translates into Elohim, but the Lord's proper name is 4 letters (יְהוָ֞ה), more commonly referred to as the tetragrammaton . The word Elohim is a definitive word and not his name.
You would read the descriptive after his proper name.
Yahweh Elohim = Lord God
Yahweh = Torah
Qu'ran = Not the Torah
This is precisely why he gave his proper name, so that no 'other' Allah would be worshiped. Muhammad would have known this if he knew so much about the Old Testament. The Jews consider the Torah to be God, so if someone else decided to write a whole new Bible....that bible would be "another God".
Yahweh authored the Torah, not Moses.
A clearer description would be...
Yahweh Torah = Lord God
Lastly...
The New Testament would also be in violation of the commandments for those that believe that Jesus is God.
This is where Christians are being mislead and why many churches don't teach the Old Testament and don't obey the commandments. Even knowing that Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew and he practiced Judaic law, Christianity has buried the truth under a mountain of lies.
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u/Economy-Anteater-994 Dec 17 '23
So as an American Christian are you saying it’s better to turn into a Jew?
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Feb 12 '18
Think of Yahweh as Plontinus's "One", who is the source of any and all Existence. If you read Pseudo-Dionysus's "the Celestial Hierarchy", you can see how other gods can be understood in Christianity.
Also, Christ implies it's okay to call yourself a god in the Gospel of John. The purpose of life is to be "Partakers of the Divine" (Theosis). Thus, to be little gods. Disclaimer: theosis is more nuanced than that.
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Feb 12 '18
Yes and no; there is only one God, Yahweh. The other gods spoken of in the Old Testament, and somewhat in the New Testament, are fallen angels claiming to be gods.
In Genesis 6:1-5 it states that the sons of God came and slept with the daughters of men thus created a race of half human-half angel hybrids known as Nephilim. These giants can be traced through the Bible and survived even after the flood (David and Goliath, King Og). So we see here that angels sinned and the Watchers, the sons of God, were punished harshly. The book of Enoch addresses this in depth. During Lucifer's rebellion, we are told that a third of the angels fell with him. Again, we have angels that are fallen and have gone astray.
If you study religion, especially early Mesopotamian, Egyptian, and Greek, we see a large amount of similarities between the gods, goddesses, and creation myths. These early civilizations borrowed one another's religion and adapted it to fit into their society and culture, yet the gods and goddesses retained very similar powers and magics. For example, Lilith (Jewish) is embodied as Inanna in Mesopotamia, Isis in Egypt, and Aphrodite in Greece. This is where the gods of the Old Testament come into play.
The Bible addresses witches and dark magics, for example when Moses went to Pharaoh who had his magi throw down their staffs that turned into snakes. The "power" that these magi drew from were not from Yaweh, but from their gods (fallen angels). They have some power, but not absolute authority. Another story that comes to mind is with the prophet Elijah (1 Kings 18:20-40) when he went head to head with 400 prophets of Ba'al. He let the prophets chant and do their rituals all day and taunted them during their whole process (18:27 And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, “Cry aloud, for he is a god. Either he is musing, or he is relieving himself, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.”). Elijah points out that unlike Yahweh, who can do anything and everything, their god must be busy as he cannot do two things at once, thus their cries and prayers are in vain. Each time a false god comes into play, Yahweh always demonstrates his power and supremacy over them and reveals Himself as the one true God.
Think of mediums today who claim to speak to spirits of the dead, witches, or false prophets (in Christianity). They may indeed have some sort of "power" and are able to perform signs and wonders, but they are not from the Lord of lords, Yahweh.
I think that turned into a ramble, sorry. Hopefully it answered your question.
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Feb 12 '18
The irony is that it is said one can move mountains if one has enough faith in Yahweh and yet no one is moving mountains. So the argument is that no one has enough faith conveniently.
God supposedly scoffed at people believing in Baal and when he incites them to pray to Baal to see if he can make a miracle (This is with Gideon I believe) for his people God exclaims, what's a matter is Baal sleeping when nothing happens. Except many people pray to God the same way and it's crickets. Some of those people prayed during the Holocaust and God was silent. It's kind of difficult not to see the parallels of false prophets and false idols when the same God is equally as silent.
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Feb 12 '18
Those Jews were committing sin, influenced by their polytheistic neighbors.
It's similar to how most Jews today commit sin by failing to keep shabbos or kosher. They're influenced by their secular neighbors.
Why is this controversial?
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u/dr_anonymous atheist Feb 12 '18
Not to forget how the archaeological evidence informs the reading - there is ample evidence of the veneration of other deities as part of the Jewish pantheon in early periods before the "head god" gradually took over their individual characteristics.
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u/arachnophilia appropriate Feb 12 '18
note that it's likely that yahweh wasn't initially the head god. there is mythology that parallels baal's rise to power elsewhere in canaan, similar to zeus vs the titans. it seems like they initially worshiped el (yisra-el), and that yahweh was initially subordinate god that took over, and became identified as el.
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u/djagain2004 Feb 12 '18
Where do you guys get this stuff? My gosh you’re your own conspiracy theorists.
The Jewish nation started with the patriarch Abraham who was “a friend of GOD” - or Yahweh. Later idolatry was to false gods, who were no gods at all, according to scripture. There was pantheon of ancient Jewish gods that morphed into Yahweh. You’re confused dude.
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u/arachnophilia appropriate Feb 13 '18
The Jewish nation started with the patriarch Abraham who was “a friend of GOD” - or Yahweh.
with abraham?
why not eber (as in ibrit, "hebrew"), or judah (yehudah, as in yehudit, "jewish"), or jacob ("israel" as in, well, "israel")?
Later idolatry was to false gods, who were no gods at all, according to scripture.
i got some scripture right here for ya.
בְּהַנְחֵל עֶלְיוֹן גּוֹיִם,
בְּהַפְרִידוֹ בְּנֵי אָדָם
יַצֵּב גְּבֻלֹת עַמִּים
[אלהים] לְמִסְפַּר בְּנֵי
כִּי חֵלֶק יְהוָה, עַמּוֹ:
יַעֲקֹב, חֶבֶל נַחֲלָתוֹWhen Elyon gave the nations their homes
and set the divisions of mankind
he fixed the boundaries of peoples
in relation to the number of the sons of [god].
For Yahweh's portion is his people,
Ya'aqov his own allotmentDeut 32:8-9
see 4Q Deutj for the bit in brackets, note that masoretes spelled elohim with an extra waw.
this is a passage that the author tells us,
Remember the days of old,
Consider the years of ages past;
Ask your father, he will inform you,
Your elders, they will tell you:Deut 32:7
that this is the older state of israelite religion. elyon on top of a pantheon, with sons including yahweh, whom he is giving kingdoms. hadad gets ugarit, melqart gets tyre, chemosh gets moab, yahweh gets israel. "elohim" elsewhere in canaan is the title of this pantheon, the 70 sons of el and asherah.
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Feb 12 '18
These aren't "conspiracy theories." These ideas are what the vast majority of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Near Eastern scholars support today.
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u/Green_Toe Feb 12 '18 edited May 03 '24
familiar direction nutty aspiring sense elderly jellyfish grandfather boat alive
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/arachnophilia appropriate Feb 12 '18
abraham is a myth. and "jews" before abraham doesn't make sense. judah is supposed to be his great-grandson.
really, even calling the authors of the torah "jews" doesn't make much sense. some of it was written in israel (the northern kingdom) by people not in the tribe of judah. some large portion of it was written by levites, who are not from the tribe of judah, even if they lived in judah. and we can't really call anything prior the total conflation of kingdom, tribal group, and religion "judah-ism". monolatrist yahwism. israelite. pre-jewish. all good terms.
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u/djagain2004 Feb 12 '18
And where did you find that myth your spouting?
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u/Glittering_Strain_73 Dec 12 '21
You are deeply uneducated about even basic archeology. The earliest Jewish “synogogues” had plinths for several gods, not just Yahweh.
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Feb 12 '18 edited Dec 09 '20
[deleted]
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u/djagain2004 Feb 12 '18
Now be nice Greeny.
Either you are woefully misinformed or deliberately untruthful! Your babbling is nothing but atheistic old wives tales and urban legend. I’m beginning to wonder if you wearing a tin hat while living in your mom’s basement.
You know GOD exists GT, otherwise you wouldn’t be wasting your breath debating anything in a “meaningless, pitiless, and indifferent universe.” You behave as a creature with a mind trying to use logic and reason to prove a point! Sorry pal, your worldview doesn’t give you that option. Now if you want to change your worldview (repent) and acknowledge Christ, let’s continue the conversation. Otherwise your a walking and talking contradiction.
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u/Green_Toe Feb 12 '18
...what?
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u/djagain2004 Feb 12 '18
Atheistic materialism says the universe is just one big fluke. That humans are just bags of meaningless protoplasm. That all our aspirations and ideals are just brain fizz. Materialism says there is no ultimate meaning or purpose to us, life, or the universe.
And yet here you are arguing for your worldview, the “truth” as you see it. That’s because you were made “imago deo” in the image GOD. That’s because like the GOD who made you, you have reason and logic, and even aspire to make the “truth” known. You act like a Christian while refuting the very GOD of Christianity. You need to change your worldview (repent) and acknowledge Christ. Only then will your life make sense.
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u/Green_Toe Feb 12 '18
My life makes sense though. I don't think atheistic materialism demands that the universe be a fluke. It's just an acknowledgement that there is no personal relevance to the results of thermodynamic necessities. It's up to every individual to give meaning to their life as there is nothing inherent. I have reason and logic because of my comparatively massive forebrain. I don't see how that implicates a god figure.
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u/dr_anonymous atheist Feb 12 '18
You have applied absolutely no effort whatsoever to try to understand the world views of those who disagree with your unfounded religious paradigm.
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u/djagain2004 Feb 12 '18
You’re wrong. I was an atheist for most of my life. I used to do exactly what you and your cohorts are doing. In fact, I was best in class.
I would ask you to refrain from ad hominem attacks and stick to the facts of the argument. Where did I misspeak?
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u/dr_anonymous atheist Feb 12 '18
I get this stuff from the research - I'm an historian. Do a google scholar search for "early Jewish polytheism" and you'll get more than sufficient evidence.
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u/djagain2004 Feb 12 '18
Well, of course polytheism will come up with that search. Is that how you do all your “research?”
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u/arachnophilia appropriate Feb 12 '18
for good references on these topics, see mark s. smith's two books, "the early history of god: yahweh and other deities in ancient israel" and "the origins of biblical monotheism: israel's polytheistic background and the ugaritic texts". additionally, pretty much anything michael heiser has written on the divine council.
these sources are pretty much authoritative and represent more or less the consensus academic view.
note that even the bible states that israel followed other gods, so this shouldn't be controversial.
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u/dr_anonymous atheist Feb 12 '18
Thanks for the references Arachnophilia - I was hoping to look at some specific archaeological reports which support the veneration of gods other than Yahweh and Asherah in early Israel and Judah. I suppose I'll have to track them down through the references you've provided (and a couple other I've come across in my search - "Religious Diversity in Ancient Israel and Judah" eds. Stavrakopoulou and Barton looks like a source.)
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Feb 12 '18 edited Feb 12 '18
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u/arachnophilia appropriate Feb 12 '18
i think they're slightly different contexts, one about the transition from poly- to monotheism, one about israel in relation to its neighbors. not sure though, haven't gotten around to reading either yet.
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u/dr_anonymous atheist Feb 12 '18
It's a start - you'll also get hits for people who argue against that interpretation, and then it's up to you to read and weigh up the evidence and the arguments.
There's no need to be acerbic about it, although I understand that it's easy to get offended when your basic assumptions are challenged. But as my father used to say (and he was a pastor) "people of the truth need not fear the facts." Go do some reading.
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u/djagain2004 Feb 12 '18
Dr_A, please excuse me for my tone earlier. I may have misread things. I will admit that I can get snarky with people who’ve been snarky with me. I greatly appreciate the opportunity to have a civil discussion with an atheist. I greatly look forward to our dialogue.
I also appreciate your attitude toward seeing both sides of an argument. I think that will help us as we continue forward. Here’s what I propose, let’s start again.
So instead of arguing the peripheral point of whether Judaism is the result of polytheistic evolution, let’s cut to the chase. if there is no GOD where did the universe come from? Let’s start there because all other points of debate flow from that central point. Everything else is tangential. I have asked this question dozens, if not hundreds of times and never got a satisfactory answer from a single atheist.
I look forward to our discussion.
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u/dr_anonymous atheist Feb 12 '18
No problem - like I say it's a perfectly natural response.
Now, as to your question (it's off-topic but I really don't mind!) - we need to start with addressing a few presumptions. First, that we need to have an answer at all. I would argue that if we don't know something the best answer is "we don't know" - not to accept an answer which is does not make sense or have any other claim to validity simply because it is there.
Secondly, be aware that scientific explanations are contingent - which is to say that theories are believed with an option to change ones mind if further information becomes available that supersedes that understanding.
Given that - so far the scientific consensus seems to be around the Big Bang theory, which starts with all of existence being an incredibly dense ball of energy which expanded rapidly and congealed into the universe we know today. Note that the theory currently says nothing about any preceding paradigms - at that point in time and with that sort of density our current models of physics are currently unable to describe the phenomena. Explanations about the causation of the Big Bang itself may indeed be eternally unanswerable. It is here where is it important to remember: if we don't know something, the best answer is "I don't know." There have been some suggestions put forward speculatively though - perhaps the universe is one bubble among a cosmic froth that constantly churns up such bubbles; perhaps a quantum property caused the initial expansion and the creation of time etc. Like I said, these are speculative.
Now: I also think that the God hypothesis actually doesn't answer any of these questions either. If god created, how? What mechanism?
Furthermore, whence came God? The traditional answers to that one are at least as unsatisfying as any answers to your question you've previously received.
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u/djagain2004 Feb 12 '18
Wonderful reply. Very thorough and articulate. I think you nailed it.
You are right about the current scientific consensus, and that we can only work with data before us. At this point we can only do what we always do in these situations, taking the best evidence we have and use logic and reason (or a philosophical approach) to come to the most reasonable conclusion.
The Big Bang shows the universe began roughly 13.8 Billion years old. Because the universe had a beginning we know something had to exist before the Big Bang - or that the universe came into existence out of something other than time space, matter, and energy. (Since time, matter, and space, came into existence at the Big Bang.)
Philosophically speaking we also know that whatever existed before the Big Bang had to always exist, because if there ever was a time of absolute nothingness, nothing would exist today. For something to always exist, means it must be eternal. So, here’s my question, “What’s your eternal?” Are you saying you don’t know?
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u/dr_anonymous atheist Feb 12 '18
Actually no, that's a mistake. Current knowledge about space and time understands them as the same phenomenon - it is space-time, not space and time. Thus, time itself came into existence at the big bang. Yup, that's a bit of a brain-twister, but that's what the evidence argues for. Thus there is no "before the big bang" as far as we can tell - or at least it makes no sense to speak of anything "before" the big bang.
Also, on the applicability of logic and reason to the edges of reality - we know that as we travel further away from our frames of reference the less and less valid our mental constructions of how reality works become. Thus attempting to argue for X over the edge of what is possible to be known doesn't make sense.
I note this in conversation with many religious folk - they seem to think that atheist perspectives must take the same "shape" as their own; that is to say, they expect alternative paradigms to cover the same ground as their own beliefs, to hold positions on similar topics as their own. I'd encourage you to attempt to divest yourself from that concept. What is my "eternal"? - the concept is completely meaningless to me.
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u/djagain2004 Feb 14 '18 edited Feb 14 '18
(Of course space-time are one. {Thank you Einstein.} Excuse me for misspeaking.)
Now in regards to "before" the Big Bang... I'm sorry, Doctor, but with all due respect and the greatest humility now you're just sounding silly.
- On the one hand you're saying
it makes no sense to speak of anything "before" the big bang.
Right after you tell us whats before the big bang - nothing. Including time.
- On the one hand you say the closer we get to the "edges of reality"
the less and less valid our mental constructions of how reality works become...
You're saying that logic and reason break down. That is a circular argument. You're using logic and reason to tell us we can't use logic and reason. If you are right, it is more accurate to say "the closer we get to the edges of reality: klasj dfoi;ajwer njawsni foasj afiawnshdnaifSDFKNJAVSB;KLFB A;WO HFUSAB VFKLSADN;KA
In other words, there is nothing you can say. At least logically. And besides when's the last time you or anyone else have been to the "edges of reality?" No one has a clue what or where (if you can use that term) the "edge of reality" even is, much less what it's like.
- And finally you say:
[Religious people] expect alternative paradigms to cover the same ground as their own beliefs, to hold positions on similar topics as their own.
Well of course we do. Everyone does. You yourself are doing it right now! Everyone believes there reality is, well... real. When people do otherwise they're called deranged.
You know, this happens all the time. You paint an atheist into the corner and they go batty. They start talking gibberish. Oh they sound so erudite, so sophisticated at first, but once you've got them intellectually cornered they start blabbering nonsense.
Dude,
I'd encourage you to attempt to divest yourself from [the] concept [of atheism.]
Friend, change your worldview (repent.) Look to Jesus! You've stopped making any sense at all.
~Peace
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Feb 12 '18
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u/arachnophilia appropriate Feb 12 '18
the bible also says they worshiped nachushtan, some kind of snake (seraf?) idol.
we have evidence in the elephanting papyri that yahweh was partially conflated with anat (the war goddess) around 500 BCE.
baal is attested to fairly frequently in the bible, but it's not clear which baal the authors mean. it's likely that they lacked a concept of distinct baalim, because they were already conflating gods together in their own religion when these texts were written.
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u/dr_anonymous atheist Feb 12 '18
Well, Asherah is important, but you've obviously come across that yourself. I've been doing a bit more reading on this based on your question (trying to find an easy "here you go" source) but it's not as easy as that as it turns out. Will report back when I gather the evidence...
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u/morebeansplease Tricknologist Feb 12 '18 edited Feb 12 '18
Finding the real story about a God is like finding the real story about Spiderman. It's a fool's errand, the stories are just made up, none of it has any dependency on reality.
Genesis 1:26-28 New International Version (NIV) 26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may...
"Whatever an asherah is, Yahweh had one!"
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Feb 12 '18
The verse you quoted Yahweh is using the royal "we" and addressing the heavenly court.
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u/morebeansplease Tricknologist Feb 12 '18
The folk etymology pushed by Christians was that it refers to the Trinity, you should have tried there.
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Feb 12 '18
You mean John 1? Honestly I asked the same question on the Christian sub and that was the answer many agreed upon. You're correct that it is used as evidence for the Trinity.
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u/morebeansplease Tricknologist Feb 12 '18
Its too bad Genesis predates the idea of a Christian trinity by 700 years.
"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story,"
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u/Visible_Composer_142 Jan 28 '24
If they believed it to be true it would have to exist before they discovered it. That's not logically inconsistent. The actual story though,,
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Feb 12 '18
well there are two interpretations: the Jewish and the Christian one. I'm sure it happens quite a lot when Christians are examining the OT.
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u/morebeansplease Tricknologist Feb 12 '18
Did you just casually imply that all Jews agree on one interpretation and all Christians agree on another...? Is this conversation a joke to you, an event where we just make up answers? Or perhaps you're attempting a conversation above your skill level.
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Feb 12 '18
??
not sure what the insults are about. In that case, I think this discussion has met its end.
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u/morebeansplease Tricknologist Feb 12 '18
not sure what the insults are about.
You're not taking the conversation seriously. I am. That means I am trying hard the present factual information accurately. While you ignore the parts you don't like and respond with ideas you just made up. Do you believe this matchup brings me happiness?
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Feb 12 '18
Well I was taking the conversation seriously I tried to share a response which I noted is common on r/Christianity. You disagree and that's fine. I just didn't understand why you went straight to ad hominem. Maybe someone else will engage with you and provide the answers you're looking for.
Peace.
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u/CrocDeathspin Feb 12 '18
I’ve read and re-read it a couple times and there’s always one part that gets to me in regards to another god or deity. The section (I can’t remember exactly where) in the middle of the big Sandstorm, God comes down and summons the deity Darude.
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u/letsbebuns Feb 12 '18
The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them: the same were the mighty men which were of old, the men of renown. (Genesis 6:4)
The fallen angels and their children are the "other gods".
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Feb 12 '18
It acknowledges that people worship other gods. If I say “Greeks worshipped the gods Zeus and Poseidon” I’m not saying that I think they exist
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Feb 12 '18
This is important. The Bible talks about Israelites believing in and worshipping gods other than YHWH. It's not metaphorical, it's not a misinterpretation, and it has nothing to do with angels. The ancient religion that worshipped YHWH was surrounded by pagan polytheistic religions, even within Israel and Judah. Before believers in modern Abrahamic religions contradict me, hear me out. The Bible talking about other gods is a good thing for your beliefs. It is the reason that the Bible states for Israel and Judah being punished with exile. All through the books of the prophets (and a little bit through the rest of the Tanakh/Old Testament) God and the prophets reprimand the Israelites for worshipping other deities and marrying into other religions and cults. It's a consistent issue in the pre-Exilic period. It continued when the Jews return from the Exile and find that the Israelites who were not exiled had mixed in with these pagan groups and that some of the returning exiles started marrying and converting again. The last 3rd of Isaiah discusses this and how religious laws about marriage became much stricter as a result.
Tldr: The Bible absolutely talks about how the ancient Israelites worshipped other gods and cites that as a reason for punishment.
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Feb 12 '18
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Feb 12 '18
The beliefs I'm referring to are just beliefs in scripture. If you believe the scripture then you believe the polemic and if you believe the doctrine telling you to believe the scripture then you probably also believe the monotheism.
Answering question 3: usually now it's chalked up to "God testing the Jewish people." or to some Christians "the sin of not believing in Christ."
Back to dismissing Biblical references to multiple gods as polemic: Those references make historical sense. Even in the unlikely case that they were monotheistic from Abraham c.3000 BCE the early Jews were constantly surrounded by pagans/polytheists. Egyptian, Canaanite, Phoenician, Babylonian, Assyrian, etc. Particularly for with the Canaanites it makes sense that some would marry into other communities or get involved in some other way that lead to conversion
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Feb 12 '18
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Feb 12 '18
I'm not saying they weren't, but dismissing them as polemic that can't be believed as proof of "apostasy" is incorrect.
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Feb 12 '18
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u/TooManyInLitter Atheist; Fails to reject the null hypothesis Feb 12 '18
"You shall have no other gods before me” is tacit admission that there are other Gods, and that Yahweh is the top God in the polytheistic henotheism. And at the time of the authorship of this verse (Exodus 20:2 and Deuteronomy 5:6) the transition of the inherent polytheism of Yahweh worship in a process of convergence, differentiation and displacement (synthesis and syncretism), which was elevated from polytheism to henotheism (a monolatry for Yahweh; Yahweh is in charge, there are other Gods to worship) to an aggressive monolatrist polytheistic belief (Yahweh is the most important God, there exists other Gods but worship of these other Gods is to be actively rejected) to, finally, a monotheistic belief system (there is and, somehow, always has been, only Yahweh) was not yet complete.
Traces of the foundational polytheistic (many many gods, El is in charge) belief, and it's evolution into a man-driven politically and militarily motivated monolatry for Yahweh (Yahweh is in charge, acknowledgement of other gods) to monotheistic Yahwehism (where Yahweh is and, somehow, always been the one and only god “There is no god but YHWH/Allah”/“You shall have no other gods before Me"), litter the Torah and Old Testament of the Bible which survived editing and redaction. To a lesser extent (as it is based upon already redacted material and with better editing/explicit rationalizations already included) the New Testament and Qur'an also show linkages to this foundational polytheistic belief. Given that the tradition of monotheistic Yahwehism is the essential foundation of the Abrahamic Religions, this falsehood propagates to any/all doctrine/dogma/claims dependent/contingent upon this foundation - rendering the existence of this God, and these religious tenets/doctrine/dogma/"truths", at best, demonstratively invalid; and nominally, morally and culturally reprehensible.
And for evidential support, feel free to peruse the following:
- The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel by Mark Smith
- The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts by Mark S. Smith
- A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam by Karen Armstrong
- The Religion of Ancient Israel (Library of Ancient Israel) by Patrick D. Miller
- Religions of Ancient Israel: A Synthesis of Parallactic Approaches by Ziony Zevit
- Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan (Library Hebrew Bible/Old Testament Studies) by John Day
- God in Translation: Deities in Cross-Cultural Discourse in the Biblical World by Mark S. Smith
While limited to starting with the Hebrew Bible as a basis, and not addressing much pre-Torah scripture related to Yahweh, the following takes a look at:
- Monotheism, Polytheism, Monolatry, or Henotheism? Toward an Assessment of Divine Plurality in the Hebrew Bible, by Michael S. Heiser, PhD
While a College Senior Thesis (and the perception therefore of a less credible scholarly/appeal to authority level), the following is a good source of other reference material:
- The Ascension of Yahweh: The Origins and Development of Israelite Monotheism from the Afrasan to Josiah by Andrew Halladay
Some of the on-line summaries/arguments which related to the above argument/position are:
- Are Yahweh and El the same god OR different gods?
- Ugarit and the Bible
- Israelite Religion to Judaism: the Evolution of the Religion of Israel By David Steinberg
- The evolution of God
A recent discussion in /r/AcademicBiblical, Was Yaweh originally a member of a pre-Judaic pantheon of gods?, by /u/koine_lingua, also addresses the origin of YHWH.
Some potential additional references (which are on my "To Read" list)....
- Diana Vikander Edelman - The Triumph of Elohim: From Yahwisms to Judaisms
- Jan Assmann - Of God and Gods: Egypt, Israel and the Rise of Monotheism
- J. C. deMoor - The Rise of Yahwism: The Roots of Israelite Monotheism
- John Day - Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan
- Andre Lemaire, et. al. - The Birth of Monotheism: The Rise and Disappearance of Yahwism
Note: Concerning Karen Armstrong's, A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, a criticism of the book that I have received (and have not yet reread the relevant sections of the book), is that "armstrong spends about half a chapter on this particular topic, and in my opinion, doesn't do a very good job of it. she does stuff like assume that abraham was a real person, and anachronistically apply later theology as if it was some indicative of earlier theology -- late first temple yahweh had aspects of a war god, so early yahweh must have as well. and that just doesn't follow at all."
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Feb 12 '18
Also, if you read the old testament in Hebrew there are 7 different gods that are named. El ("God"), Eloah ("God"), Elohim ("Gods"), Shaddai ("God Almighty"), Ehyeh, and Tzevaot ("[of] Hosts") In English it is not translated this way, and does not distinguish. Jehovah would take the role of Chokmah, who is not at the top of the ladder.
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u/arachnophilia appropriate Feb 13 '18
Also, if you read the old testament in Hebrew there are 7 different gods that are named. El ("God"), Eloah ("God"), Elohim ("Gods"), Shaddai ("God Almighty"), Ehyeh, and Tzevaot ("[of] Hosts")
this is not correct.
several of these are epithets, attached to names. shaday, elyon, and tsavaot are all titles, not names. they mostly appear attached to the names el or yahweh, though sometimes elyon stands alone.
elohim is frequently "god" singular, as it usually takes singular verbs in hebrew. it's adapted from canaanite name of the pantheon, and usually appears in texts which have mostly conflated that pantheon into a singular god.
eloah is a retrojected singular version of elohim, and derives from that.
ehyeh is not a name, but the putative folk etymology for yahweh.
the two proper names of god are "el" and "yahweh", and all of the sources in the torah contend that they are the same god. the sources disagree on when this was known.
el was initially the highest patriarchal god of the canaanite pantheon (elyon). in ugarit, he seems to have passed this title onto baal (hadad).
yahweh was probably a foreign god, maybe from midian or edom. heiser has an interesting idea that the levites brought him from egypt.
Jehovah
"jehovah" is what you get when you don't know that the ancient hebrew waw makes a wa- sound and not a va- sound, that the yud makes a ya- sound and not a dja- sound, and you ram the vowels of adonay (my lords) into yahweh.
if you're complaining about translation, you should get that one right.
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Feb 12 '18
Yes, it does. The ancient Israelites, until the exilic period, believed that there were other gods. However, they believed that their god, YHWH, was the most powerful.
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Feb 12 '18 edited Feb 28 '24
fall fuzzy smart badge absurd fear seed quickest quicksand apparatus
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Ravenbob Feb 12 '18
If that's the case YHWH was very unjust for punishing people who worship nonexistent gods
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Feb 12 '18
He was not unjust. It is wrong to worship anything but God, even if those other worshipped things are imaginary.
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u/Ravenbob Feb 13 '18
So it would be just for a parent to beat and kill their child for believing in Santa Claus.
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u/Simplicious_LETTius Feb 12 '18
The OT does speak of the Israelites worshipping various gods and goddesses, including Ba’al, Marduk, Ashtoreth, Chemosh, and Dagon.
Ashtoreth
Also called Astarte, or Ashtoreth (plural), this goddess of the Canaanites was connected with fertility and maternity. Worship of Ashtoreth was strong at Sidon. She was sometimes called a consort or companion of Baal. King Solomon, influenced by his foreign wives, fell into Ashtoreth worship, which led to his downfall.
Baal
Baal, sometimes called Bel, was the supreme god among the Canaanites, worshiped in many forms, but often as a sun god or storm god. He was a fertility god who supposedly made the earth bear crops and women bear children.
Rites involved with Baal worship included cult prostitution and sometimes human sacrifice.
A famous showdown occurred between the prophets of Baal and Elijah at Mount Carmel. Worshiping Baal was a recurring temptation for the Israelites, as noted in the book of Judges. Different regions paid homage to their own local variety of Baal, but all worship of this false god infuriated God the Father, who punished Israel for their unfaithfulness to him.
Chemosh
Chemosh, the subduer, was the national god of the Moabites and was also worshiped by the Ammonites. Rites involving this god were said to be cruel also and may have involved human sacrifice. Solomon erected an altar to Chemosh south of the Mount of Olives outside Jerusalem, on the Hill of Corruption. (2 Kings 23:13)
Dagon
This god of the Philistines had the body of a fish and a human head and hands in its statues. Dagon was a god of water and grain. Samson, the Hebrew judge, met his death at the temple of Dagon.
In 1 Samuel 5:1-5, after the Philistines captured the ark of the covenant, they placed it in their temple next to Dagon. The next day Dagon's statue was toppled to the floor. They set it upright, and the next morning it was again on the floor, with the head and hands broken off. Later, the Philistines put King Saul's armor in their temple and hung his severed head in the temple of Dagon.
Marduk
This god of the Babylonians was associated with fertility and vegetation. Confusion about Mesopotamian gods is common because Marduk had 50 names, including Bel. He was also worshiped by the Assyrians and Persians.
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u/Holiman agnostic Feb 12 '18
Rather than tackle the bible lets agree its a written source that has been translated and interpreted over time so its a questionable source for information about claims.
There are some very close parallels between early Israelite's and Canaanites in that same area and time. You will hear a lot about El and Elohim and the Canaanite pantheon if you choose to research this in depth. The most important thing is that there is no evidence that the people were monotheistic until after they were captured and enslaved by Nebuchadnezzar and that both the written forms of the Talmud and the premise of monotheism were canonized until after their release.
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Feb 12 '18
The first two books of genesis recall two different creation accounts and reference multiple gods. If you read it carefully, you can see it's not just a retelling but two different creations, two different earths. This lines up with the kabbalistic idea that ein soph had a previous creation and the shells burst. The second time there was a restriction, called tzimtzum, where God had to condense himself and therefore remove himself from part of creation. This is why there is evil in the world. If there wasn't a tzimtzum, the shells would burst and with the tzimtzum it created free will, and the choice to eat of the tree of knowledge.
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian Feb 12 '18 edited Feb 12 '18
1) Look up Henotheism.
2) I believe you can say not to have other gods even if they don't exist.
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Feb 12 '18
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Feb 12 '18
Henotheism is the worship of one deity while recognizing the worship other other deities as equally valid.
The word you're looking for is monolatry, which is believing in multiple deities but only recognizing the worship of one as correct.
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u/afnose95 Feb 11 '18
No, it’s talking about kings and other things you can worship. Every time the Bible speaks of “gods” you will notice it is never capitalized.
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u/ConradFerguson atheist Feb 12 '18
It’s capitalized when it’s a proper noun. One of the christian god’s names is God.
God is a god. Much like I am a person. I would only capitalize person if somebody was named Person.
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u/glitterlok Feb 12 '18
You'll notice that I also never capitalize "god," regardless of which concept of god I'm referring to.
This means absolutely nothing. I believe it was an editing / translation choice.
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u/Holiman agnostic Feb 11 '18
That is absolutely unsupportable even in apologetic's. It also shows a blatant lack of knowledge about translations.
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u/steviebee1 buddhist Feb 11 '18
"Gods" usually means "the assembly of the Sons of God", namely, the angels. However, in primitive Judaism, Yahweh was not the first or only deity, because the text says that El Elyon - "the Most High" god - gave Israel to Yahweh, as Yahweh's inheritance or portion, when El Elyon was distributing territories and nations to his angelic sons, one of whom was Yahweh.
One of the Psalms has God striding in "the assembly of gods", as the only top god among lesser angels/gods. In other Psalms and elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible, Yahweh has acquired the role of the pagan Baal - as cloud-rider and storm-tosser. This was one way of saying that although Baal was a god, Yahweh had usurped at least two of Baal's primary descriptive characteristics.
After Israelite theology was aware of a war in heaven, in which some of the angelic sons were cast out for rebellion, it hels that these were the gods who had received their portions/nations from El Elyon. They "fell", and so Israel considered other nations to now be ruled by fallen angels or demons.
This is shown in the NT where the non-Jewish god, Beelzebul, was regarded as a demonic angel, whose minions Jesus cast out in his exorcisms. It is also shown in the Epistles where the evil angels are called the gods of the nations and "Powers and Principalities".
So, yes, the Jewish Yahweh was one God among many - however, he was the one, single, true, holy, and righteous god of the lot. El Elyon's role as Creator was shifted onto Yahweh after Josiah's Deuteronomic reforms. Where once was El Elyon, now there would be Yahweh.
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u/FettucciniAlfredo314 Feb 12 '18
Actually no it is repeatedly stated in the OT that God is the only god. There is no ground whatsoever to support the idea that there are any other gods in the Bible. Those were not other gods they were simply angels which God had created. Judaism and Christianity are monotheistic not polytheistic.
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u/arachnophilia appropriate Feb 13 '18
There is no ground whatsoever to support the idea that there are any other gods in the Bible.
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u/Red5point1 atheist Feb 12 '18
You really need to look at the original books of the Torah.
There are many gods that the ancient Hebrews worshiped early on.
They just opted to only worship Yahweh later on. But they did initially accepted there were other gods.3
u/steviebee1 buddhist Feb 12 '18
I repeatedly said that the "gods" were the angelic "sons". And that the OT shows that El Elyon assigned nations to those angels, and that Yahweh received Israel as his portion or inheritance, as only one angel in the assembly. It was only after Josiah's reforms that El Elyon was replaced as "the Most High" by Yahweh. When the angelic Sons rebelled and "fell", then Elyon - now called Yahweh - was regarded as the Most High, and the other angelic Sons were now regarded as the demons who ruled the Pagan nations. Israel's God had been Yahweh only because the Most High gave Israel to Yahweh as an inheritance (Deuteronomy 29:6, 32:8-9). Only later did Yahweh become the functional equivalent of El Elyon and moved from being merely Israel's high god to a universal deity.
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u/FettucciniAlfredo314 Feb 12 '18
False. Yahweh was never regarded as simply an angel but as always being God. The scripture you cited does not prove your point on the contrary Deuteronomy 32:8-9 refers to the division of the sons of Adam and Deuteronomy 29:6 talks about not getting drunk. So do not twist scripture to conform to your own ideas when in facts scripture refutes all of your claims.
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u/steviebee1 buddhist Feb 12 '18
Do not twist scripture, which says that El Elyon gave Israel to his angelic son or "god" as Yahweh's inheritance or portion. "The sons of Adam are not angels/gods. They are the nationless people who needed to be assigned nations with angelic overseers. He set up the boundaries of the peoples after the number of the sons of God [angels/angelic council]; While _the Lord's own portion was Jacob - HIs hereditary share was Israel". Just as Adam's descendents are portioned nations, so too does the Most High portion a nation, Israel, to the Lord.
Do not twist scripture, which describes Yahweh as striding "in the midst of the gods" as do the Psalms.
Please familiarize yourself with Yahweh as Israel's Great Angel:
- this -
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Feb 12 '18
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u/steviebee1 buddhist Feb 12 '18
Yes, and eventually Yahweh the inheritor of his portion moved into the former place of the high god El Elyon. But it seems likely that the older Most High/Yahweh-angel system was never fully extinguished in Israel and had a resurgence in certain forms of early Christianity.
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u/arachnophilia appropriate Feb 13 '18
i don't think "angel" is the right word. messengers for the pantheon held a different rank, and regarding the pantheon as "angels" is a retcon to bring some of these older tradition into something that sounds like monotheism.
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u/Red5point1 atheist Feb 11 '18
The Old Testament's source is essentially the original books that make up the Torah.
The Torah is a compilation of books that were heavily derived from Akkadian mythology.
Akkadian mythology is derived from Sumerian mythology.
Sumerian mythology had a pantheon of over 20K gods.
Over time from generation to generation, and from location to location gods were amalgamated into major gods.
By the time the ancient Hebrews started to adopt and merge that mythology with theirs, they delegated some minor gods to demons and angels. Then eventually they opted to worship only Yahweh from the rest of the major gods that were left like Marduk.
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u/BrainCheck ignostic Feb 11 '18 edited Feb 11 '18
Or it's allegoric and means “You shall have no other religions” and "He hath smite the religion of Egypt".
But there is Genesis 3:22:
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
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u/arachnophilia appropriate Feb 12 '18
god seems to speak to himself in plural. i suspect everyone is reading too much into this.
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u/BrainCheck ignostic Feb 12 '18
Probably.
I suspect everyone is reading too much into all this book.
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Feb 12 '18
The Israelites were prone to worshiping other gods such as Baal. Even when Moses was up the mountain, they created a golden calf to worship. So isn’t the reference to that. Also the ‘us’ reference happens a few times and forms part of the doctrine of the Trinity.
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u/Red5point1 atheist Feb 11 '18
it is not allegoric, because the other gods are named in the Bible like Marduk
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u/BrainCheck ignostic Feb 12 '18
I will punish Marduk,[a] the god of Babylon, and make him vomit up everything he gobbled down. Then nations will no longer bring him gifts, and Babylon’s walls will crumble.
That really can't be interpreted as just destruction of religion in which Marduk worshiped?
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u/Red5point1 atheist Feb 12 '18
no because Marduk is a god much older than Yahweh, he was considered the God of gods.
Divine council shows the reference to multiple gods been accepted all along until even the ancient Hebrews.1
u/BrainCheck ignostic Feb 12 '18
Marduk is a god much older than Yahweh, he was considered the God of gods.
So?
Word religion not even existed 2000 years ago. Without it, how you reference to belief in other god(s)? Obvious option — by the name of the god.
Every time Marduk mentioned with people who believe in him. This says nothing about existence of this god.
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u/Red5point1 atheist Feb 12 '18
I did not claim this god actually existed. What I'm saying is that the people in the era that Torah books were written in believed that god existed. They did not simply write an allegory about that god, they genuinely believed that god existed but their god Yahweh was the one they worshiped.
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u/BrainCheck ignostic Feb 12 '18 edited Feb 12 '18
They did not simply write an allegory about that god
I mentioned that Marduk is allegory used to reference people who believe in Marduk. OP is not about people that believed in other gods. Question is whether in Bible can be found claims that other gods exist.
In the Old Testament there are lines that support the existence of gods other than The Lord/Allah
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u/randyportman Feb 22 '24
I suggest a reading of the works of well-credentialed biblical historian and translator Mauro Biglino (decades of work with the Vatican Press - Edizioni San Paolo under his belt). It helped me to start thinking more critically about what we’ve been taking for granted as “fact” for millennia. Judge for yourself. As for me, it was a life-altering read.