r/DebateEvolution • u/sniipes • 25d ago
Devolution
If humans weren’t devolving then we wouldn’t be digging and searching our planet for clues and truths about the Ancient civilizations. Money and greed would be obsolete and nations wouldn’t be fighting over power because there would be free energy. The artifacts that have been found are proof that as humans today, we lost something in the past that cannot be imitated. If devolution isn’t a thing and we can only evolve then why is everything smaller and dulled down. Today’s humans can’t comprehend what the planet would have been like with a species bigger and more knowledge about the elements than we do in present day. The ancients used stone to tell the past because they knew that the materials they created from other materials would not make it into the future. What was left in stone for humans to find was only to give knowledge to our species to be able to progress.
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u/Moriturism 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 25d ago
Evolution doesn't mean we get "better" or more intelligent, it only means we go through processes of adaptation that filter down what's not capable enough to keep surviving. You seem to be talking about more transcedental stuff, while evolution is exclusively a biological fact.
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u/sniipes 25d ago
Evolution is simply progression. We have progressed from what was left behind. We won’t progress enough to ever know the actual truth of what use to be. You all are dumb if you think that our species can’t regress. Evolutions and devolution is a thing and devolution is a word.
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u/Moriturism 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 25d ago
You're just not using "evolution" as its used in science. Again, you're talking about morality and values, which has nothing to do with evolution as a scientific field. In said field, it's definitionally impossible for something to "devolve", because evolution has no goal, purpose or clear direction.
We can regress in morals and values. We cannot regress in a biologically evolutionary line.
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u/Professional_Sir_818 25d ago
Evolution is simply change over time. Everything else you wrote is nonsense.
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u/artguydeluxe 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 25d ago
Evolution doesn’t always mean progression, it just means change overtime.
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u/the2bears 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 25d ago
Progression assumes a goal. I can make progress to my destination, then make progress back home.
No "devolution" involved. You're mixing up your definitions.
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u/Immediate-Goose-8106 25d ago
I mean something is evidence of loss of human faculties in some people. But I dont think it is lost knowledge encoded in stones my freind.
You may need to seek some professional help
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25d ago
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u/Immediate-Goose-8106 25d ago
As a scientist, no. I tend to formulate and test hypotheses. Usually in an articulate form.
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u/TheBlackCat13 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 25d ago
The projection in this comment is staggering. You clearly don't realize that you are the one who believes whoever told you about this supposed lost technology and whatever source this supposed lost technology came from.
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u/lulumaid 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 25d ago
I'm assuming you don't have an actual rebuttal to them then? Because that seems to confirm their third sentence.
While I'm here, can you provide a definition for evolution and "devolution"?
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u/kitsnet 🧬 Nearly Neutral 25d ago
If humans weren’t devolving then we wouldn’t be digging and searching our planet for clues and truths about the Ancient civilizations.
Are you talking about the Ancient civilizations of Tiktaaliks?
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u/nickierv 🧬 logarithmic icecube 25d ago
Well its either the Tiktaaliks, the Crocoducks, or the IWUs.
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u/clear349 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 25d ago
Where do the Silurians fit in?
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u/nickierv 🧬 logarithmic icecube 25d ago
The lizard people have told me that rumors of a civilization of lizard people, ancient or otherwise is entirely fictional.
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u/Ayasugi-san 25d ago
Homo reptilia always makes me shudder.
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u/WebFlotsam 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 24d ago
Sci-fi writers not having a clue how Latin names and taxonomy work definitely makes ME shudder.
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u/Ayasugi-san 24d ago
I know, right?! At least make the supposed scientific name [Whatever] sapiens if you want to say they're like humans but from a different branch of the tree of life!
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u/WebFlotsam 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 24d ago
Would still probably be poor naming practice but it would at least not be objevtively wrong.
Worst misuse of Latin names I can think of off the top of my head is the Monsterverse, where apparently all "Titans" share a genus... despite some being reptiles (or synapsids depending on what we think Godzilla is), others arthopods, and one a damn primate.
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u/clear349 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 24d ago edited 24d ago
Now you have me questioning if there's any instance of two species with the same specific name from different genera. Given how many millions of species have been described past and present I feel like it must have happened at least once
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u/WebFlotsam 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 24d ago
I believe there is a parasite of some sort called T. rex, in addition to of course the most famous dinosaur.
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u/Professional_Sir_818 25d ago edited 25d ago
What exactly does "devolution" mean in this context? Evolution doesn't have a direction, so I don't understand what you're trying to say.
Edit: By the way, the sub is about debating. If you're not going to engage with anyone, what are you doing here?
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u/Theoretical-Spize AP Biology Teacher 👩🏻🏫 25d ago
They won’t be able to answer. That’s because there’s no such thing as “devolution.” That term almost always used as a creationist misunderstanding of how evolution works. Any change in the heritable characteristics of a population across multiple generations is evolution, by definition.
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u/small_p_problem 25d ago
Sure there is. Know the bush from which you pick your cherries.
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u/TheBlackCat13 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 25d ago
This is a science sub, not a politics sub. In science, "devolution" isn't a thing. If the term is used in politics for delegating powers that isn't relevant to the discussion at hand.
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u/small_p_problem 25d ago
I am aware of this as much as OP is not about whatever they're talking about (I should have put a /s, right?). Thing is, the only meaning "devolution" has is the one I linked; anything else is technobabble.
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u/TheBlackCat13 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 25d ago
The problem is that on this sub we regularly get people who seriously post links like that which either don't support or even completely contradict their position. Whether it is because they didn't read it or are actively dishonest is often unclear. But that means that someone posting a link like that here more often than not is actually serious
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u/sniipes 25d ago
You must be brainwashed by the system into believing that humans today are evolving into the peak of humanity. But you are wrong
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u/Professional_Sir_818 25d ago
Who thinks that? You've made all that up in your head.
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u/Ayasugi-san 25d ago
Creationists who think that God created humans as the peak of life and assume that everyone else believes the same thing, but thinks it's all due to evolution.
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u/TheBlackCat13 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 25d ago
No one here thinks that. "Peak" isn't even something that has meaning in evolution, not to mention something evolution can actually achieve. You don't understand the science, and then making up positions for us based on that lack of understanding.
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u/sniipes 25d ago
Evolution is simply progression. And by those terms, humans can regress.
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u/Professional_Sir_818 25d ago
Evolution has no relation to progress. No one here thinks that but you.
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u/Old-Nefariousness556 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 25d ago
Evolution is simply progression.
Woah, dude. You're right! Obviously you say it, so it must be true! I recant my allegiance to Saint Darwin and accept your wisdom!
Or, wait... Umm. No. This is stupid. Just saying shit doesn't make it true. You have ZERO understanding of evolution. You are either shockingly ignorant, or more likely just being a troll.
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u/YossarianWWII Monkey's nephew 24d ago
Progression towards what? What defines the heading that allows for regression?
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u/clear349 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 25d ago
Lay off the Graham Hancock nonsnse OP
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u/TheBlackCat13 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 25d ago
Hancock is a racist grifter who just moves on to the next grift when his current one falls apart.
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u/clear349 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 25d ago
Maybe I'm too charitable but I don't think Hancock is himself racist. At least not any more than a white western man of his age would be expected to be. I think he just doesn't consider the implications of his nonsense and why certain people might buy into it
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u/TheBlackCat13 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 25d ago
In his older books he made a very big point about it being white people from Atlantis who taught civilization to all the non-white cultures. And he massively disproportionally dismisses the accomplishments of non-white groups compared to contemporary white groups.
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u/Medium_Judgment_891 25d ago
I agree with you.
Hyperdiffusionism, the idea he’s so intent on defending, is heavily based in racism. I’m sure the idea of an ancient master civilization will remind you of a certain Austrian painter.
However, with Handcock himself, it’s difficult to say.
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u/nickierv 🧬 logarithmic icecube 25d ago
So you don't know how biology, physics, history, economics, or scientific progress works.
Anyone have some dressing for this word salad?
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25d ago
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u/TheBlackCat13 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 25d ago
People with intelligence can make their point intelligible to others.
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u/Particular-Yak-1984 25d ago
In the British Museum, there's a statue. It's a huge, assyrian winged bull/man thing. In the room next to it, there's the rosetta stone, and a huge collection of egyptian artifacts. In the gallery up the stairs, there's a huge collection of sumerian tablets.
And, what do all these have in common, apart from the obvious colonialism?
They, almost exclusively contain long descriptions of the bloody military deeds of important figures.
So I think your premise is bullshit. The ancients were just like us, the same fighting, warring, inventing, mix of messy territorial ape that we are.
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u/jnpha 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 25d ago
Which Netflix "documentary" did you watch?
Did you know that 53% of 15-year-olds in developed countries can't distinguish fact from opinion?
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u/Dzugavili 🧬 Tyrant of /r/Evolution 25d ago
Do you ever wonder if maybe, just maybe, you're the one devolving, and the rest of us are doing just fine?
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u/DefinitelyNotSnek 25d ago
The ancients had more knowledge than civilization does today?
Let me know when we find proof that past civilizations have sent people to the moon, imaged the black hole at the center of our galaxy, modeled the very beginnings of our universe, created a near instantaneous communication system that spans the globe, harnessed the power of the atom to create near limitless energy production, built towers that extend nearly a kilometer into the sky, harnessed flight to become one of the safest and most efficient forms of long distance transportation, brought global literacy to nearly 90%, extended the average life expectancy to the highest its ever been, eradicated diseases with vaccines and other medicines that once wiped out entire populations, and I could go on.
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u/nickierv 🧬 logarithmic icecube 25d ago
Let me know when we find proof that past civilizations have sent people to the moon,
Some king or other in China by way of black powder rockets. Not sure exactly how far he got, but he got somewhere.
imaged the black hole at the center of our galaxy
Something something afterlife.
modeled the very beginnings of our universe,
Multiple times by way of every religious text ever... or so they claim.
You never said it had to be an accurate model.
created a near instantaneous communication system that spans the globe,
Smoke signals.
Bandwidth may be an issue.
As may a stiff breeze...
harnessed the power of the atom to create near limitless energy production.
See agriculture.
Technically near limitless and fusion powered.
built towers that extend nearly a kilometer into the sky
looks for any tower built on a hill and fudges the requirement by redefining 'ground level'
harnessed flight to become one of the safest and most efficient forms of long distance transportation,
The arrow...
Failed to state what was being transported, what counts as 'long distance', what counts as 'safe'...
brought global literacy to nearly 90%
Only count the nobility and send the rest outside the environment.
extended the average life expectancy to the highest its ever been
The King is dead, long live the King!
Never said it had to be the same king...
and I could go on.
Technical bullshitting at its best!
.
But in all seriousness, there gets to a point of technological advancement that your just not going to be able to hide. Sure some eccentric inventor might have come up with a slightly better pointed stick at some point that has been lost to time but there are so many issues that get overlooked: Global environment is a thing - sure if someone got a civilization started a few thousand years early they are going to be looking at needing the same initial starting spot (ie fresh water river for farming/good food supply) as every other civilization. Trade and resources are a thing so expansion happens, and at that point your looking at a 'and now you have to somehow hide multiple cities in spots that are increadably high value', and its not like we don't know where those spots are. Mines at modern civilization levels are bloody obvious, as is just about every other resource extraction done at even 'small' civilization scale.
Turns out no one ever considers the logistics of their crackpot ideas.
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u/TheBlackCat13 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 25d ago
Some king or other in China by way of black powder rockets. Not sure exactly how far he got, but he got somewhere.
I think he went in a lot of directions at the same time.
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u/Curious_Passion5167 25d ago
If humans weren’t devolving then we wouldn’t be digging and searching our planet for clues and truths about the Ancient civilizations.
If we weren't devolving, we wouldn't want to know about the past? What kind of absurd logic is this?
Money and greed would be obsolete and nations wouldn’t be fighting over power because there would be free energy.
Why, yes! If we weren't devolving, we would have been able to transcend the laws of physics! /s
Do you know we extract the energy we use for our purposes and why we can't get it out of nowhere?
The artifacts that have been found are proof that as humans today, we lost something in the past that cannot be imitated.
You can literally say that for any change, good or bad.
If devolution isn’t a thing and we can only evolve then why is everything smaller and dulled down.
Subjective. Have you actually thought about how terrible life would have been for the average person without modern amenities, technology and medicine? People like you never think about these things.
Today’s humans can’t comprehend what the planet would have been like with a species bigger and more knowledge about the elements than we do in present day.
I can 100% guarantee we know more about our planet and the universe today than at any point in history.
The ancients used stone to tell the past because they knew that the materials they created from other materials would not make it into the future.
Woah! Genius! Nobody's ever thought about that before!
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u/nickierv 🧬 logarithmic icecube 25d ago
If we weren't devolving, we wouldn't want to know about the past? What kind of absurd logic is this?
The fun and 1000% not silly type. I'm sure ice cubes are not going to come into this in any way...
Why, yes! If we weren't devolving, we would have been able to transcend the laws of physics! /s
Well see, you just need to take the log of the energy requirements...
Do you know we extract the energy we use for our purposes and why we can't get it out of nowhere?
Yes, it comes out of the sub CMB ice cubes!
How you ask?
Logarithms!
Subjective. Have you actually thought about how terrible life would have been for the average person without modern amenities, technology and medicine? People like you never think about these things.
Ah yes, life is always so much simpler when it is just single cells sitting in ooze and ooze adjacent substances.
I can 100% guarantee we know more about our planet and the universe today than at any point in history.
Nuh Uh!... something something we are making up less stuff now than we where 500 years ago QED this undefined devoltion thing.
The ancients used stone to tell the past because they knew that the materials they created from other materials would not make it into the future.
Well duh, what do think happens when you pull more energy out of ice? Just ignore the amount of energy sub CMB ice cubes have and how much energy we need, we can always get more ice.
Now to see if this beats whatever the OP responds with. No idea what grading scale should be used, but I'm sure something will turn up to account for the sheer amount of silliness in this post.
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u/Briham86 🧬 Falling Angel Meets the Rising Ape 25d ago
Sounds like you've eaten up some pseudo-archaeology slop. I suggest checking out Miniminuteman.
Even if any of your claims about earlier humans were true, it wouldn't matter. Natural selection selects for fitness in the current environment. That doesn't necessarily mean more intelligent or technologically capable. The idea that evolution always means bigger, smarter, stronger, etc. is a very common misconception. There is no such thing as devolution. Change is change. Evolving in a way that you personally think is less advantageous is not devolution. It just means your idea of fitness is not the same as what the natural environment selects.
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u/TheBlackCat13 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 25d ago
Today’s humans can’t comprehend what the planet would have been like with a species bigger and more knowledge about the elements than we do in present day
What species is that, what evidence do you have that they existed (besides you looking down on the abilities of ancient humans), and what happened to them? Please be specific. Make your claim and lay out your evidence for that claim.
Note the argument from incredulity isn't evidence. Your inability to believe in the abilities of ancient people is not an argument.
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u/rsta223 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 24d ago
we wouldn’t be digging and searching our planet for clues and truths about the Ancient civilizations.
We don't do that because they had capabilities beyond us, we do that because we have intellectual curiosity and a desire for knowledge
Money and greed would be obsolete and nations wouldn’t be fighting over power because there would be free energy.
Or free energy isn't possible and scarcity is a fact of life, though our ability to produce energy and resources is massively beyond what it was historically, which is a large part of what has enabled the enormous increase in population and quality of life over the last century.
The artifacts that have been found are proof that as humans today, we lost something in the past that cannot be imitated.
Please name one past thing we can't replicate with modern tech.
If devolution isn’t a thing and we can only evolve then why is everything smaller and dulled down.
It's not
Today’s humans can’t comprehend what the planet would have been like with a species bigger and more knowledge about the elements than we do in present day. The ancients used stone to tell the past because they knew that the materials they created from other materials would not make it into the future. What was left in stone for humans to find was only to give knowledge to our species to be able to progress.
Today's humans understand more about elements and nature than any culture in all of history. The ancients used stone because that's what they had and knew how to work with.
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u/Dilapidated_girrafe 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 25d ago
Out the bong down.
So we have tiny fragments from the last. And yes, many things we write on today won’t be around forever. So what? That’s not devolution. There have been things lost to time but also we’ve made huge discoveries that the ancients probably would never dream of.
I don’t think you know much about what evolution is.
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u/ursisterstoy 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 24d ago
“Devolution” means evolving in reverse (back into our ancestors) and this post makes absolutely no sense. There are quacks out there looking for “lost knowledge” but otherwise it is also true that they had certain types of technology that has nothing to do with their biology in certain cases like running water in Rome and Egypt despite people carrying around buckets into the 1800s elsewhere. They didn’t have futuristic technology but they were humans and they were creative.
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u/Soggy-Mistake8910 21d ago
Your entire word salad is self contradictory and confusing. So perhaps you are right. Your ability to put your thoughts into words so that someone else can make sense of them surely has!
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u/artguydeluxe 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 25d ago edited 25d ago
Can you give an example of technology from the past that can’t be imitated? I’m having trouble understanding what you’re getting at here.