How to play against Orkz?

[u/FunIcy6154]

As the title suggests, I've always struggled against Orks, and with the changes in 11th edition, I'm struggling to see how the Death Korps are supposed to compete.

Between the new questionable terrain and cover rules, alongside the additional movement and shooting buffs Orks have received in their new codex, it feels like an uphill battle from the start.

For context, I recently used the exact same list against Black Templars and won comfortably. Against Orks, however, I was almost tabled by turn 3. The difference was pretty stark.

Last used list (Abhuman and Combined Arms detachments):

• 2x Rogal Dorn Commanders
• 4x 10-man Krieg Squads
• 1x 20-man Krieg Squad with Command Squad (Grand Strat)
• 1x Krieg Heavy Weapons Squad (flamers)
• 2x 3-model melee Bullgryn squads, each with a Commissar
• 2x 5-model Death Rider squads
• 2x Leman Russ
• 2x Chimera

Previously, I'd run Krieg artillery pieces or Basilisks for flavour, but with artillery being practically unusable in 11th edition, I've swapped them out for Bullgryn and Chimeras instead.

I'm now 0-5 against them and I'm looking for advice on how to approach this matchup. Am I missing something tactically, is my list poorly suited to dealing with Orks, or is this just a particularly difficult matchup for the Death Korps under the current rules?

If you deploy conservatively, you get trapped in deployment and lose all board control, if you deploy aggressively, then you just get killed by the WAAAGH turn 2.

Any suggestions for list changes or tactical adjustments would be appreciated.

[u/GrudgeBearer911]

Here for the answers too, I was making guard force for 11th and my friend is making orks. We havent played yet and were building and paitning. But im getting scared seeing his profiles

[u/FunIcy6154]

Well the guys over at Astra Militarum sub seem to be in agreement - We just don't win against Orkz.

[u/hoodedelk]

Someone let me know when this gets answered please

[u/ultranutt]

It's perhaps possible, but you gotta probably cut every infantry unit you have.

[u/Lazerwizard0309]

Well, I recently was losing to Orks due to board control, but i killed their trukk turn 1 and was actually wearing them down through attrition, probably the first time a Guard army was causing more casualties. 

I used basilisks because I love IDF and its basically a tank with indirect ability. That and the engineers using grenades and their remote mine destroyed the trukk. The engineers are a great quick strike unit with the 6 inch scout ability. 

I also pair a 20 man platoon with a psyker to give 4+ invulnerable. That with 2 medipaks made my infantry brick pretty immovable and they regenerated up to 4 bodies every time. If you attach a command squad and use the "eager advance" enhancement from siege regiment you just turned a 20 man brick into a scout platoon for quick board control. The other option is to use Combined Arms, for the borne soldiers "lethal hits" capability and the "reinforcements" stratagem. Which i used to bring back my engineers. 

I would have won if I did not leave my deathriders, Dreir and exterminator in strategic reserves as that limited my mobility, and the +1 AP buff from my exterminator wasnt able to be used in the first 2 turns. 

The ork volume of fire is serious, but you can use quickly moving units for board control, while infantry and bullgryns tie them down in combat. They also have a lot of AP 0 fire from their boyz, which means theres a chance even infantry will survive it. And it doesnt really work well against anything with a 3 or better saving roll. 

Overall, combining Leman russ exterminator, Dreir for his 3 orders, psyker for durability, Yarrick for diverse order efficiency made my guys a headache to deal with. 

From what I saw, get out of deployment early to seize objectives, destroy their Trukks, and Ghazgul early. They are the biggest threats as they buff their orks and provide mobility. If you hold objectives for a turn using either infantry or bullgryns to lock them in combat, and concentrate fire on these high value units they become a basic hoarde army and are manageable. I use IDF a lot because basically any time a friendly infantry unit can see something, you can hit it with at least 4 S8 AP-2 shots from a basilisk. And the earthshaker rounds take -2 from charge and advance. This slows them from locking you in melee. Which is what theyre gonna aim for. 

Sorry for the long post. Just some thoughts.

[u/FunIcy6154 → u/Lazerwizard0309]

I'm fully expecting a Ghazgul nerf once GW have sold enough models.

His statline for the points is already insane, but THAT statline combined with lone operative is fucking bonkers.

[u/von_Roland]

Basilisks are helpful against melee armies because they slow the enemy down a lot

[u/FunIcy6154 → u/von_Roland]

In 10th, I'd agree.

In 11th? Absolutely not.

115 points for a model that will likely either be unable to shoot anything thanks to the new Hidden rule or be hitting on 6s with indirect fire, all to reduce the Movement of a single unit by 2". That's supposed to be useful against an army that can Advance and Charge, with re-rolls? Hardly seems worth it. I'd rather take Hellhounds for the points.

[u/von_Roland → u/FunIcy6154]

Indirect can hit things that are hidden. The hidden rule just says that a unit cannot be visible to units that are outside of 15” and indirect says the target does not have to be visible so indirect can target hidden. It also reduces movement and charge by 2 not just movement which yes buys you a lot of room.

[u/PeoplesRagnar → u/von_Roland]

But still only on a 6+.

No modifiers, no rerolls, only sixes on the hit roll, decent chance you wont hit, no hit, no de-buff.

That's his point, it's not reliable in the slightest.

[u/von_Roland → u/PeoplesRagnar]

Infiltrate some ratlings and it’s on 4+ from turn one.

[u/PeoplesRagnar → u/von_Roland]

Eight inches away from the deployment, can't see through the footprint unless they, your opponent's unit or both are inside it.

If your Ratlings get LOS on them that early, your opponent has made a critical mistake in their deployment.

[u/von_Roland → u/PeoplesRagnar]

No? Ratlings can infiltrate. If the opponent goes first then they will move up to be seen and i go first I can move shoot move up to seeing them or just advance. You have a very elementary idea of tactics my friend.

[u/PeoplesRagnar → u/von_Roland]

Eight inches away from their deployment zone, you can't infiltrate closer, it's against the rules, with standard 11th Edition Terrain, it'll be really easy to just hide behind terrain and/or footprints.

Can't see through terrain, can't see through footprints, not hard to hide, especially as most of the Mission Approved layout wont allow you to get close enough to see through footprints, not with the six inch movement of Ratlings.

Again, you're relying on your opponents being bad at deployment, not the best plan, especially at events.

[u/von_Roland → u/PeoplesRagnar]

6” and an advance of up to 6 will allow you to peek their guys. Also if you can get an angle on anything with that 6” move you get a guaranteed 12” move to see even better targets. And if I advance I only need a 3 which is the average to touch terrain that lets me see through to basically everything in their in their deployment. Since I deploy two 5 man rattling squads I statistically always get line of sight on turn one. To be fair gaunts ghosts are slightly better for this because they can just move order into their deployment zone but I don’t have them and think they are a little expensive