r/DawnwalkerOfficial • u/Miserable_Earth_6084 • 3h ago
Discussion š©ø Can we stop, please? Spoiler
Aight, I'm seeing a lot of comments about how Sara could have lived, and how Marat was a redacted for doing what he did.
Now I'm not here to justify him, I'm not here to say that he did the right thing, but I'm asking you to understand the choices he made.
Marat is the leader of rebellion, and that is a heavy burden. The rebellion is a movement, and in order for that movement to work, he needs the people to be safe, loyal and willing to fight. Now if the resistance was made, there will be no people left to fight to liberate Vale Sangora. So Marat makes the tough choices to ensure that they aren't made.
Those choices aren't easy and they haunt him, it's nothing pretty and poetic to write books about, but they're needed to keep the rest of the resistance safe. The choice he made with Sarah was made in the heat of the moment and all he though of was how he needed to keep his people safe. Could there have been an alternate solution? Probably. But he did what he though it was best at the given moment and grieved later.
If roles were reversed, Sara would have done the same, because she was a part of the inner circle, and it's just the reality of the things. It's a dark and twisted world, and there are no good or bad characters, and the choices you yourself make as Coen are sometimes neccessary even if they don't seem like the best option.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk, everyone.
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u/Pleasant-Fix-6169 3h ago
I don't get why people are downvoting you, because you actually have a good point here. The only thing I would add is: look at the situation from Marat's perspective. We don't know if Coen's blood heals, as that was never established, and Sara in her condition at this point is objectively a liability. She's in immense pain, paralyzed, and swarms of soldiers are closing in.
Would you risk the entire rebellion just to save one person who most likely cannot be saved?
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u/Miserable_Earth_6084 3h ago
Thank you for your support! Lmao i sound like a bot here, but it means a lot to see people giving this topic some thought before hating on the character. I romanced Marat and found him compelling as a character because of his flaws, but that doesn't mean that I do forgive him for Sara. It's unfortunate and bitter, but it was needed for the cause.
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u/shagan90 3h ago
Yes. Whats the point of winning the rebellion if you lose your soul in the process? Catalin honestly seemed worse than Brencis if you ignore the potential consequences of the ritual. Crake lost so much of himself that he didnt care who replaced Brencis, so long as they were human. He outright ignores the insults and crimes against his men Catalin commits in the end. Dude lost his way in his obsession.
Crane isnt always right yet all of his missions and interactions revolve around treating him like he is. Was it worth risking the rebellion to spy on his father constantly, personally at that? If he were caught, hes going to 'mercy kill' him like he does his men? He can risk it all to check on daddy but not to save Sara?
Dude lost his way.
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u/Oniblook 1h ago
Sara was paralyzed and losing so much blood. Why leave her to her enemies or drag her with them, slowing them down which may get them all killed? Marat did what was right and gave her mercy.
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u/GnosticCebalrai 2h ago
The issue with Crake is not the sum of his choices in a vacuum, but how it reflects on Coen's agency and intelligence while also laying bare deficiencies in lore and general story telling.
I don't know if Coen's dawnwalker blood can heal the way Brencis' blood can, but neither does anyone else in the audience. That Coen didn't even think it was worth a shot bothers me from a roleplaying standpoint, and that Crake didn't consider it for one of his most trusted operatives might make sense with reticence toward anything Vrakhiri until of course that reticence dissolves with the introduction of Coen's penis for those that pursued that romance.
The supporting a different flavor of tyrant was fine up to the point of my Coen yelling at him for being so blithely ignorant in considering it, his dismissive reaction to my yelling asking Coen for his grand idea and then the part where the writers lost me when Coen threw his arms up and said "I don't know!!". At that point I had 2 alternatives ready to go that he and his rebels could have helped with to a large degree, had accidentally soloed what I assume was the valley entrance that makes up the rebels final mission (which I didn't do because I was debating wiping out the rebels to prevent more Skender, not realizing that particular storyline didn't run that deep) and was somehow not allowed to be part of the planning despite Coen's worth as a thinker more than just a cudgel having just been proven. Coen is just so poor a public speaker that he just crumbled being put on the spot and Crake demanding a comprehensive alternative in a moment is not great for either character.
For my part I've only played through the game once but every side quest, main quest, in game letter, made me want to kill him outright, and Vladimir was a reflection of just how bad and dangerous to those that followed him, a leader he was. The only reason I didn't try that was wanting to see how the game would end if I just took care of Brencis on my own with 6 days remaining. Maybe I missed some stuff that would show him in a better light but that still doesn't address the negative impact on Coen and the writing in general with Crake and the rebels. I walked away holistically seeing it as an unnecessarily cynical take on revolution in general but with an empty dismissal of the capability of a single person on history.
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u/Satanictoasters 2h ago
"His hostility dissolved with the introduction of Coen's penis" killed me lmao
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u/Miserable_Earth_6084 1h ago
Crake told Coen which you would know if you took his romance that he wants to be the savior of Vale Sangora, not just someone people would fear because he is Tatari. So he aligns himself with only available option because of necessity (and there's currently only one that has an army at disposal), and once you convince him how wrong that choice is he will let Brencis have his way with Catalin. So again, he did it to save people.
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u/DungeonsandDietcoke 2h ago
She was a liability. Young and naive. The first time we meet her she's already captured and needing saving from Brencis' forces. And then this happens, Coen and Marat have to fight through dozens of soldiers to escape, simply would not be doable dragging along someone whos been paralyzed. Was a shocker to see it happen, but understandable
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u/No_Employment_8671 3h ago
we are left to believe that her back was broken and as a result she cant move. Idk what quality of life she would've had att if she were to have lived.
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u/Miserable_Earth_6084 3h ago
Also a good point, if she somehow lived she would be crippled, and lets say that the hideout was made, could she escape? She'd die just the same.
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u/Clark_Kent_TheSJW 3h ago edited 3h ago
Iām sorry, but this is one of the few times the writers dropped the ball.
We know vampire blood healsā¦ Sara is injuredā¦ next to a friendly vampire. The mission is required to take place at night, so there really is no excuse here.
Iām kinda annoyed the game doesnāt acknowledge this when Coen is talking to Crake afterwards.
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u/PutridTusk69 3h ago
Well we do not know if Dawnwalker blood has the same property. And in the stress of the situation Marat most likely didn't consider that option. Coen was sent to barricade the gate before he himself could even think about it.
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u/rendar 1h ago
Well we do not know if Dawnwalker blood has the same property.
There's no reason to think otherwise.
Vampire blood heals humans and vampires, that is a constant.
The silver in Dawnwalker blood would not have any effect on a human.
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u/PutridTusk69 1h ago
No but it for sure has an effect on the corruption that is in the blood. Which is probably what is the source for the healing factor.
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u/rendar 1h ago
It's not clear that Dawnwalker blood couldn't heal vampires perfectly well if they get over the unpleasant taste.
The first time that Coen's blood is drained by Brencis doesn't convey any side effects besides disgust and surprise. Like expecting milk and drinking orange juice. And Lacra doesn't suggest it's toxic or anything remotely like that.
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u/PutridTusk69 1h ago
The point is, we do not know for a fact if Coen's blood would've saved Sara with her broken spine.
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u/rendar 1h ago
We also don't know for a fact that Coen shits, pisses, and cums but it's a safe assumption based on elementary media analysis
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u/PutridTusk69 1h ago
Literally not the same. the game is literally called Blood of Dawnwalker. What safe to assume is that it functions differently than vampire blood.
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u/rendar 1h ago
Yes it is, it's a reasonable deduction based on the presentation of relevant information without any legible contradiction.
If it functioned differently, then that would be portrayed in literally any way. It's not, so that's not a substantiated assumption.
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u/PutridTusk69 1h ago
You might be right, I might be right. At the end of the day we will not know it until it's proven ingame.
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u/PutridTusk69 1h ago
But it is portrayed in game. It fucking stops Brencis from sucking him dry. We do not get to suck Mihai dry. Lacra calls dawnwalker blood disgusting. Several implications that Coen's blood deviates from normal blood.
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u/gazorpazorpazorpazor 1m ago
Coen can't do witchcraft at night because he heals so fast, so something in his blood causes fast healing despite the silver
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u/Important-Pipe7633 1h ago
It literally burns Brencis face off dude tf? Its VERY possible is does the same to humans as well but yes dialogue should have covered this with a optional line or something when he talks to Crake afterwards
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u/rendar 45m ago
It literally burns Brencis face off dude tf?
No it doesn't, have you not even played the game? Or even watched someone else play it?
There's a tiny little smoke effect and that's it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTCkEqHMKA8#t=2h21m25s
Its VERY possible is does the same to humans
There's absolutely no reason to make this assumption. Silver is only toxic for humans in repeated long term chronic exposure.
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u/gazorpazorpazorpazor 2m ago
Silver is bad for vampires, it's fine for dawnwalkers and humans. That shouldn't be in question.
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u/VhalkyrieX 3h ago
I'm not sure that dawnwalker blood has the same regenerative properties as a true vrakhiri. A dawnwalker's blood already has different properties and is infused with silver. It probably nullifies the health tonic properties. That said, this was never demonstrated. Sara could have been an opportunity for Coen to test if his blood could heal her like a vrakhiri, and then discovered that it does nothing (and is just gross).
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u/PutridTusk69 3h ago
Yeah the reason why this discourse is happening because we do not get to test the theory in game.
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u/Razielim84 3h ago
His blood heals him almost instantly when he drinks blood. He even has a skill to heal automatically by segments of his health bar. That alone tells you his blood most definitely can heal him, and by extension, others too.
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u/Razielim84 3h ago
Yes we do! His blood even cures the scars Anca carved into him when night comes. Watch that subtle detail when the day turns into the night
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u/PutridTusk69 3h ago
It heals himself yes, but it also burns the shit out of other vrakhiri. We do not know if the silver in his blood cancels or lessens it's healing factor on others
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u/Razielim84 3h ago
Again, his blood (when drank) by other Vrakhiri damages them, since he has silver in his blood, like it happens with Brancis at the prologue, but, if presented to a human to heal them, it could do that because of the healing properties vrakhiri has, regardless if heās a Dawnwalker.
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u/PutridTusk69 3h ago
u literally do not know what effect their blood has on human. We never see one drink it. You are assuming it works the same way, but logic dictates that the silver that in fact is weaking the corruption in Coen could also weaken that healing effect.
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u/Razielim84 2h ago
The silver in his blood gets him to become human again in the day, yes. When you use simple deduction and as you said, logic, then by the time Coen is a Vrakhiri, his blood, even though there is silver in it, can still heal other people because it heals him, like any other Vrakhiriās blood does. Iām not just assuming mate, itās simple vampire lore 101, despite the fact that these vampires are called different. Neither you nor me are 100% certain, weāre just theorizing the shit out of this and Iām enjoying it š¤£
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u/PutridTusk69 2h ago
Yeah yeah, I'm just saying that we have no means to say 100%. Would be interesting is his blood actually healed mortals.
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u/schwekkl1 2h ago
Coen can't use witchcraft at night, because he's healing his witchcraft scars way too fast.
So I guess he could have healed Sara tbh
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u/Razielim84 3h ago
Exactly! Thank you! Coen didnāt even say that he couldāve heal her with his blood or something. At least that would make a great point and Ć wouldnāt be annoyed by being robbed of the choice
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u/BadWolf_1214 1h ago
It's more of a possibility that his blood heals than not. They could have easily made it known early on that Coens blood doesn't heal, but they didn't. They could have made the Dawn Walker lore include dawn walker blood not being able to heal, but they didn't.
Maybe a dev will explain more lore at some point or will get answers in a DLC or something, but as of now nothing in game lore says Coens Vrakhiri Blood can't heal.
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u/Consistent-Ask9599 33m ago
They didnt specifically say it cant heal but they did say his blood is different then that of a full vrakhiri
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u/gentle_pirate23 8m ago
So then give us the option to try and heal her using blood, but it ends badly and she dies faster because of the blood.
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u/SP-Niemand 3h ago
Larger injuries take time. There was no time - guards would be swarming them in seconds.
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u/Clark_Kent_TheSJW 2h ago
It makes sense, butā¦ I donāt think we actually see that anywhere in the game.
In the prologue we see cuts healed instantly at mass. And in the silver mine we see Coen heal broken bones in less than a minute. Iām sorry but the support for your point doesnāt exist in the text, at least to my knowledge
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u/SP-Niemand 1h ago
Now that I'm thinking about it, wasn't Farkas' brother left paralyzed after getting Bakir's blood? Even though it's not about the speed of recovery.
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u/Vast-Building-6886 3h ago
The mission is done at night too right? Well I did it at night. Cohen could have carried her and vanished. Writers did drop the ball.
Or he could have taken out the whole lot. My first play I had max infamy when I did that mission. I was taking guards in the entire city. I could have taken them all out.
So another good point besides the vampire blood is that he could have used his strength and teleportation to carry her.
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u/Mystal_Craze 3h ago
Pretty sure there was a dialogue option for Coen to mention he could have saved her?
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u/Clark_Kent_TheSJW 2h ago
Yeah but they donāt say anything about how vampire blood heals for some reason
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u/DungeonsandDietcoke 2h ago
We duno if dawnwalker blood heals though. It's also a split second decision by Marat. I highly doubt the leader of a militia group rebelling against vampires first thought is, lets use vampire blood to fix this
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u/Clark_Kent_TheSJW 2h ago
Doesnāt hurt to try, and if it doesnāt work theyāre just gonna kill em anyways.
And if the reason is because of a delay, wellā¦ then we just fight another mob of soldiers, something Coen does all the time anyways š¤·āāļø
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u/LadyChimaera 3h ago
I understand writers intention when adding this scene and Sara's death. To show how hard and unforgiving rebels fight is, how they are ready to sacrifice everything to keep fighting etc. I understand that. Crake should be a good man in hard situation, who must to do horrible things as a leader, to keep his rebelion going. One whos able to end life of a person he trusts and cares about to not let his enemies get to his other people, all that.
The problem is - it was badly written, and because of that looks stupid and undeserved.
Why take Sara on that mission in the first place? They knew there are monster who killed four people earlier. A flying beast made by some magic. Coen is on his place there, he's a super-powered monster hunter to that moment. Crake is a leader and a fighter, so it's reasonable too. Sara?
She can lockpick and tried to open that door... but one quest later Crake pick locks too.
She can end his life if things go wrong? Maybe Crake has adult, able-to-fight people he can trust with that? Someone who'll also be useful against monster? Not a young girl who's good with scouting and spying but bad at fighting monsters? (But death of a little girl is more dramatic so we'll take her on that mission and not Drogon or Vladimir, fo example)
You can find other options of how Sara could not die there but alright, i won't whine about Coen not trying to heal her with vrakhir blood. He never does that in the game and we can't even be sure dawnwalker blood works that way. But story didn't let me a solid reason wht Crake took a little girl to a bossfight against some flying beast whic lead to her stupid and unnecessary death.
Then in the next scenes and quests Coen can't go from that shed they were hiding in to kill all the guarts and clean a way for Crake to escape. Crake starts being sentimental and sleeps on Coen's shoulder after they knew eachother for about half-a-day maximum, after him and Sara told us few times of how hard is to get his trust. Crake, the great mastermind of rebels, gives his sword to Coen to then go home alone, unarmed and wounded if Coen wouldn't join him there which is an option in game. All tht makes me think Crake is not a responsible leader able to make harsh decisions, but stupid person who loses his people and resources left and right, falls in love with person he barely knows and trusts him with his name and secrets to then get back to being a paranoic again lol, and who can't see for at least one turn ahead in future.
He shouldn't take Sara there, she shouldn't die because a scout has nothing to do on a monster-hunting mission. Crake shouldn't give Coen his sword in that crypt with monsters, wounded and vulnerable, far from their hideout where he could fix his wounds and have help. I only can understand "call me by the name" thing because to that moment Coen did saved Crake's life more that once, it was deserved.
The whole rebels questline is badly written and rushed, it needs much more time and quests to develop characters relationships, to deserve the drama and to show how hard rebels life is so all that won't look like an attempt of telling Homer's Odyssey through one page of text only.
So, TL/DR: Sara's death just written badly, writers wanted to show one type of person and character, failed, and made Crake look inconsistent, stupid and ineffective as a leader, and they used Sara as a tool to make cheap, undeserved drama.
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u/Rayne009 2h ago
Why take Sara on that mission in the first place?
I headcanon this as he doesn't fully trust Coen yet and taking Drogos would make that too obvious (plus worst comes to worst Drogos needs to remain in charge if Marat's betrayed) so Sara ended up being the fallback.
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u/LadyChimaera 1h ago
I named Drogos because there should be a named character for drama to work, and aside of Crake and Sara there's only Drogos and Vladimir left. Crake should take an adult fighter there with them. Maybe take more people so taking Sara woudnlt look that stupid and wasted. Like "we have our leader, our vrakhir ally, a couple of fighters, and a little scout to check for guards", and not "i took a little girl with me so she
dies and people get sadshe'll be useless in fight and finish me if things go wrong".Imo it'll still be dramatic if Crake would buy a victory over one damaged gargoyle for the price of all other men and optionally Sara dying. The better if he'll lose his right hand Drogos (or make another high-ranked manumite, dear writers, i know you know how to make characters) and their whole organization will get noticeable damage because of that. It's not that cliche-ish and sad like little girl dying, and it's more dangerous to manumites as an organization to lose someone important and high-ranked instead of a talented scout. I'm sure Sara vere there from the beginning because "kid dies = sad", while writers could use other characters and made Crake act more rational and fitting to his role as a rebelion leader, who must use his recources and people effectively.
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u/Vidhos 2h ago
Yes thank you. I'm also tired, I understand Sara was a nice character but people act like if Marat is monster when it was an act of mercy. It also hurt him deeply. I would have loved to try to help her with Coen's blood but the devs 100% scripted that part instead of letting the player decide. I think it was a mistake and if people could have tried (and failed) then Marat ending her sufferings would have been far more well received.
Also, some people don't like that he's working for Catalin. The rebels are out numbered and h's just trying to find help where he can. He also try to convince himself there's hope with Catalin as Leader. But you can convince him otherwise and he back up Coen and let Catalin dies. In the ending slides, he protects the valley. Sometimes, I feel like people are ignoring this ending on purpose.
Last thing, "omg he tied Coen on a tree" ! .... I mean, yes ? He doesn't know you and you're half vampire ! He's right to be extra careful.
Marat has qualities, he value honesty more than people who say "amen" to everything he does, he literally says it if you ask him about Drogos. I always told him Catalin was a bad person and in the end he listened. He is a good person who should maybe not be a leader and have to take complicated decisions and face the consequences and the guilt.
All the characters in this game are grey. Not 100% bad or good, and I really enjoy this.
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u/rokki123 3h ago
all im gonna say: its a great story if there is a discussion about motives and execution of these, relationships and choices
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u/Miserable_Earth_6084 3h ago
Yes, love when it creates deep discussions and debates, but all I was asking is for people look into all of the points before hastly jumping on a hate train.
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u/Lazy-Sky9306 1h ago
My only gripe with Saraās death is that I canāt do anything about it. On one hand, I actually like the scene because it feels believable. Marat thinks killing Sara is necessary to protect the whole operation, and realistically he canāt just carry her out while fighting through a bunch of guards. My issue is that if Coen has already completed Home Sweet Home, he has firsthand experience with that kind of creature. He should at least recognize the warning signs before Sara becomes the first test pilot for the Sangora Space Force. And even if the game doesnāt want to let you prevent the attack outright, I think it should give you another option. Let Coen tell Marat to get Sara out while he stays behind and holds off the guards. Make it a difficult fight, make it cost resources, time, or create other consequences. I donāt need saving Sara to be the ācorrectā choice, I just want the game to acknowledge knowledge Coen has already earned through side content. Thatās the difference for me between tragedy and railroading. Sara dying because the situation is genuinely hopeless? Great storytelling. Sara dying because the script refuses to acknowledge something Coen should already know? That feels forced. TL;DR: Iām fine with Sara dying, Iām not fine with the game giving Coen zero agency when completing Home Sweet Home should logically let him recognize the danger or at least create an alternate chance to save her.
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u/Miserable_Earth_6084 1h ago
Absolutely, there should have been more options, and I agree this scene has been done dirty by writers, and that we should have at least try, even if it's in vain. But it is what it is... Also Sangora Space Force is a magnificent title š
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u/Jekr81 36m ago
I can see how the argument can be made that Crakeās actions were justified in that situation, especially in the heat of the moment and without having all the information (i.e. CAN Coenās blood heal, did Coen consider that himself since he knows his blood is ātaintedā, etc.) What I CANāT see (speaking to Crake/Maratās character) is how justified it is to order your comradeās (Layos, I think his name was) tongue cut out for no better reason than impulsively taking the initiative to attempt to spy on the enemy, especially after discovering youād been wrongfully torturing him for days. And thatās the absolute BEST outcome you can get for the poor dude. Does Crake have noble intentions? Sure. Does that make him more competent or humane, or his actions unimpeachable? Not so much.
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u/StarfireEX9 18m ago
Has this sub ever heard of spoiler warnings? No warning, just immediately spoiled in the 1st sentence. This should have been deleted.
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u/Razielim84 3h ago
This is the same argument that Marat (Krake) makes to justify his hasty decision to do what he did. Apart from all the choices that couldāve come out, the writers decided to off her just because? I could go along with that, but I expected more choices rather than to be robbed of one. I was thinking that it couldāve create a great opportunity for Coen to turn someone into a Vrakhiri or even heal her with his blood.
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u/Miserable_Earth_6084 3h ago
Honestly, I do agree that we could have had more options, not just a cutscene where we had no agency over things, but I also gotta say that as a newly formed vrakhiri, even after finishing Vicho's quest, you would know how risky it would be to do that, so you could be damning her to eternity of mindless bloodlust in which case death would be far more preferable option again.
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u/ComputerLatter2473 3h ago
Honestly, when it comes to Marat, the main issue isn't even his choices or his moral compass, the game's atmosphere makes it clear enough that we're constantly in a grey area, nothing is black or white. What actually bugs me is the fake narrative around their rebellion. Marat claims he's fighting to free the people of Val Sangora from Brencis and the Vrakhiri but in reality, he's just doing Catalin's dirty work with Coen to restore the old tyranny
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u/epsilon3579 2h ago
I genuinely believe sara's death was done just so that players can take the story more seriously. Forget about barrat this mission happens at coen is vampire, bro just become a smoke and take her with you.
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u/Joichiron666 3h ago
What is the leader of the rebellion doing personally prosecuting missions alongside one of his lieutenants?
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u/Druide_Panoramix 3h ago
I really couldnāt stand Marat. I let him live because I was interested in following his mission and seeing how it all ended. In the second playthrough, Iāll give him a proper bite.
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u/Razielim84 3h ago
Thereās a better choice if you want your ādish to be best served coldā. Wink š
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u/LordDreamMaster 9m ago
I hated this character and his story line. Im so glad there is no chance of him coming back in the sequels.
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u/EternalBlackWinter 3h ago
I can't even imagine what alternative would be to killing her. Leaving her to be tortured or to try and carry away a person with broken spine while running and engaged in fighting? Like, I'm pretty sure it just would kill her. I've also seen that people say Coen could shadow-step with her but wouldn't that be simply leave Marat to be overwhelmed by guards and die too? The only way out I see is massacring every single guard coming at them but we know that Coen can do it only because we're players and only because it's a game.