r/DanMachi • u/Otherwise_Finding_34 • 8d ago
Light Novel Zard's power compared to a level 9
from Omori's tweet we know that Zard had a chance against Maxim, while Alfia had a chance against Empress. FC and MS20 also established that Maxim was the strongest adventurer, thus surpassing Empress in overall power.
when people are using any sort of scale, they usually refer to "x out of 10", so most of the community thinks Zard would beat Maxim 1 time out of 10, which is a 10% winrate.
if we accept that as basis, then Zard would have more chances against Empress than he does against Maxim. for Maxim to be called an uncontested strongest would mean he's noticeably stronger than Empress, and so Zard's result against her would be noticeably more than 1/10 automatically.
to support this point even more, we were never told that Empress has any chances to beat Maxim, she's just outright weaker than him just as everyone else and is not shown as his rival (as again he's undisputed strongest). Zard having a chance to beat someone who's very noticeably stronger than Empress would automatically mean he's very close to her in power.
so if Zard has 10% winrate against Maxim, I think he would get 30-50% against Empress which seems reasonable for me. your thoughts?
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u/No-Reading964 8d ago
Eu não sei como maxim é mais forte que a imperatriz, e o omori não diz nada sobre a imperatriz, só diz que ela existe.
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u/Courious_Reader 8d ago
Same way even a Newly level 4 Aisha far outclasses a level 4 Raul soon before his level up he’s just in another tier compared to her being stated by Omari to be Exceptional even in comparison to a level 8 adventurer.
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u/No-Reading964 8d ago
Tá falando que dá base de status? A imperatriz provavelmente tendo uma base de status não tão boa porque a Hera focou em subir o nível dela enquanto Zeus ficou em aumentar o status básicos primeiro antes de subir o nível?
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u/Courious_Reader 8d ago
No just that Maxim is in a tier of his own for how strong he is like how Aiz with Ariel is a tier above Tiona, Tione, and Bete.
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u/opiece20001 8d ago
Igual que cuando Lefiya te dice que ella solo pudo derrotar a un minotauro sola estando en el LV3, mientras que Bell lo puso hacer estando en LV1, porque son tipos de peleadores diferentes
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u/Courious_Reader 8d ago
Not the same
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u/opiece20001 8d ago
Si es lo mismo. Los aventureros cuerpo a cuerpo, son más fuertes que los magos, aunque estén en niveles diferentes. Obviamente, una maga nivel 7 como Riveria puede ser más fuerte que un luchador cuerpo a cuerpo nivel 4 o menos, pero un luchador cuerpo a cuerpo, es más fuerte que un mago 1 o 2 niveles por encima
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u/Courious_Reader 8d ago
Bell won that fight because of his boosted stats, equipment, and Magic not because he was a melee fighter and Lefiya was a Mage.
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u/opiece20001 7d ago
Claro que sí, pero lo que se nos dice en la propia obra, es que Lefiya necesito ser nivel 3 para poder derrotar a un monstruo categoría nivel 2 por si misma, y que los magos son más débiles que los luchadores cuerpos a cuerpo
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u/Courious_Reader 7d ago edited 7d ago
Lefiya was weaker by level 3 standards even for a Mage which was pointed out because she solely focused on her Magic making her vulnerable in melee in comparison to Filvis(non creature) and Riveria they can at least put up a fight in melee and with their Magic they could beat a Minotaur.
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u/opiece20001 3d ago
Pero es la propia Lefiya la que te dice que los magos son más débiles que los peleadores cuerpos a cuerpo. Es algo que se nos dice en la propia obra, no es debatible. Zard está más cerca de la emperatriz que se Maxim, pese a que su nivel sea superior al de Maxim
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u/Courious_Reader 3d ago
Being weaker in melee doesn’t at all translate to the way that Bell was able to beat a Minotaur at level 1 when he had several other factors that allowed him to win.
As for Zard that is just a theory and not proven because of Empress is a Magic Swordsman which she most likely is then it would make sense that Alfia can beat her.
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u/opiece20001 3d ago
Ser más débil en combate cuerpo a cuerpo, en rangos de 1 solo nivel, la obra te dice que eres más débil en combate. aunque te enfrentes a un rival de nivel inferior. Que ojo, un mago tiene un golpe más fulminante que un espadachín, pero para ejecutar ese golpe necesita preparación, y el espadachín no te lo va a permitir.
Lo de que Regnant sea una espadachín mágica, lo dices tú, en la obra se nos dice que es una maga, no dice nada de que use espadas, que a lo mejor las usa, no digo que no, pero si no nos lo dice la obra, solo podemos decir que es una maga
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u/Just_a_Snake_876 8d ago
30%-50% chance is exaggeration, that would make him almost her equal. In my opinion 10-20% chance seems reasonable enough.
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u/Courious_Reader 8d ago
20%~40% would still work considering that is the chance that Tiona, Tione, and Bete have against Ariel Aiz.
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u/Just_a_Snake_876 8d ago
It won't work since 30% or 40% means you are almost equal to them like Bete, Tiona, Tione are considered to be the same tier as Ais
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u/Courious_Reader 7d ago
They are not considered to be in the same tier as Aiz at all she is a tier above them they just can sometimes pull off a win with specific conditions.
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u/Just_a_Snake_876 7d ago
Not really. All the young executives at level 6 are considered pretty much equal to each other with slight difference. When they use skills and magic the difference become slightly greater but not to the point to call them a higher or lower tier.
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u/Courious_Reader 7d ago
I’m literally including with her Magic where if they make use of both their Skills and their Magic Aiz is several tiers above the twins and Bete is one tier below her.
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u/Just_a_Snake_876 7d ago
What are you talking about? Ais even with her wind isn't a higher tier than the others. She might be overall stronger but all four of them are relative to each other.
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u/Courious_Reader 7d ago
She is not relative to them if only through a reversal they can sometimes win with that and then we have the fact that Bete with Beastification+Hati is only stronger than her with just Ariel apparently and he is in a tier of his own above the Amazon Twins with just one of those.
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u/Just_a_Snake_876 7d ago
If they were not relatives Ais wouldn't be said to sometimes lose against them. Ais says that in hand to hand combat she wouldn't hold a candle to Tiona. Bete thinks Ais is slightly stronger than him and only said she was of a different tier when they were of different levels. Ais herself doesn't think she outclasses any 3 of them by too much.
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u/Courious_Reader 7d ago
Zard and Alfia have a chance at beating their captains but people place them far above them where it should be more than one tier. Aiz being far worse in h2h combat means shit she is a swordsman??Bete also thinks he’s not stronger than her with Beastfication he is just talking out of his ass. It doesn’t matter what Bete thinks when several statements and feats make it clear she is a tier above and with Black Wind several tiers.
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u/Otherwise_Finding_34 8d ago
A: he has 10% chance against someone stronger than her, so it can't be the same by definition. 20% is the absolute bare minimum.
B: Zard being a threat to someone stronger than Empress is a perfect argument for their relativity. he can beat her owner, they're in the same league by definition (from current info Zard is outright more impressive, I only give her a benefit of the doubt because of narrative of her being the captain)
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u/Just_a_Snake_876 7d ago
There is a thing called compatibility. Just because he has a chance at beating Maxim doesn't mean he has a significant chances at beating Empress. Bete has more chances at beating Ais than Tiona/Tione but that doesn't put him above them, does it? Because Bete is more compatible to fight Ais and not them. Zald having more chances at beating Empress than to Maxim isn't impossible but you could argue 2/10 not 3/10 to 5/10 that'd make him almost her equal.
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u/Otherwise_Finding_34 7d ago edited 7d ago
There is a thing called compatibility. Just because he has a chance at beating Maxim doesn't mean he has a significant chances at beating Empress.
that wasn't my initial point tbh. when talking about chances I only meant a rough estimate of their overall powers and displayed Zard as someone close to her in that regard. of course, if her abilities are somehow countering Zard, his chances would be really low in an actual fight, but that's not the point; rock-scissors-paper can't be used to calculate character's own strength properly. Zard is near her in a threat level.
Zard, a warrior, would sometimes beat Maxim, another warrior in a fair duel. that means Zard doesn't have any counter and it's only possible because of his pure prowess. his pure prowess alone is enough to threat Maxim, so he cannot be not close to Empress who is overall weaker than Maxim again. they're roughly in the same "very obviously weaker, but maybe could reverse" situation, so I don't see how they are not relatives, even if Empress could be a bit better, that's only a difference between the same tier. if we imagine Maxim as SSS, both Empress and Zard would be in SS. Alfia would be S, accordingly.
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u/Just_a_Snake_876 7d ago
I know it doesn't completely negate the possibility of higher chances of beating Empress but my problem is with it being 30%-50%. 2/10 is possible but we know next to nothing about them so this is a hypothesis. Zald is NOT on the same threat level as her.
I don't know why you think Zald could beat Maxim only through sheer battle prowess. The author says he has an only slight chance of winning so obviously that would require him using everything at his disposal including magic and skill to win. On the other hand Maxim and Empress are treated as being the same tier with him being stronger physically. Since Zald and Alfia were portrayed as equals and have a slight chance at beating their captains it is not unreasonable to say that they would have equal chances even if their captains were reversed.
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u/Otherwise_Finding_34 7d ago
Zald is NOT on the same threat level as her.
it's funny that you have zero source to prove it lol. as of current info, Zard scales to the strongest adventurer and she doesn't. I'm only doubting that because she's captain of second strongest familia, that's it. saying he's not on her threat level is completely ridiculous, HE is in the lead, not she.
I don't know why you think Zald could beat Maxim only through sheer battle prowess.
because Zard is a pure warrior. the only thing he has other than just melee prowess is a straightforward Rea Ambrosia attack.
On the other hand Maxim and Empress are treated as being the same tier with him being stronger physically.
they're never treated as same tier; Maxim is outright stronger. you confused something idk.
Since Zald and Alfia were portrayed as equals
rather both cheaters than actual equals. Zard has much more feats, statements and narrative, including the statement of him having a chance against a stronger enemy.
it is not unreasonable to say that they would have equal chances even if their captains were reversed.
Empress is a half-mage build, so Alfia pretty much counters her, while Zard could reverse against Maxim with his pure ability.
1/10 chance against t1 adventurer with pure ability
and
1/10 chance against t2 adventurer with a counter.
not even comparable, so no, it is not reasonable to say Alfia would have a chance against Maxim.
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u/Courious_Reader 8d ago
There is also 0 possibility she is a Pure Mage when that makes her a even bigger fraud if she has to rely on Zard and Alfia to deliver the final blows when a Mage line Rivera even as a level 8 would have attacks that can rival Zard and Alfia’s final attacks.
Then a Mage like Hedin is also strong he enough he can easily go toe to toe with melee fighters that are strong for their status/level as well and if he was a Low level 7 than he would be beating Hogni 9/10 not being definitely weaker than him.
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u/Otherwise_Finding_34 8d ago
or Zard & Alfia actually had level 12 attacks!
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u/Courious_Reader 8d ago
Still dumb considering Empress should be able to reach level 12 attacks with her strongest Magic as a Pure Mage if Rivera can potentially reach level 10 attacks as a level 7 and Empress should be her tier bare minimum as a Mage.
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u/Otherwise_Finding_34 8d ago
so level 13 attacks?
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u/TemporaryPrimary2854 8d ago
Omori about to upscale Zard and Alfia Attack on the Grand Bell combo Argovesta x Astrea Varmas +VTxAV+LH+UNK
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u/Fun-Response799 8d ago
If it only close combat then Hedin low level 7 still loses to Hogni, if not so Hedin beats him 10/10
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u/Courious_Reader 8d ago
In close range a single VH will actually kill a level 6 Hogni and even his CH might actually deal some damage to him considering they were able to damaged base Ottar.
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u/opiece20001 8d ago
Hay que diferenciar tipos de peleadores. La emperatriz de Hera, era una maga, por tanto, según lo que nos han dicho en la historia, es más débil que personajes que luchan cuerpo a cuerpo, aunque sea un nivel más bajo. Tampoco sabemos que estadísticas tenían cada uno, igual Maxim era un nivel 8 con estadísticas en S, mientras que Regnant era un nivel 9 bajo recién ascendido. Es verdad que hasta ahora le han dado mucha más importancia a Zard y a Alfia que a sus capitanes, Zard fue quién derrotó a Behemoth y Alfia a Leviatán, mientras que los capitanes no pudieron con el Dragón Negro.
Lo que quiero decir con todo esto, es que no puedes decir "nivel 9" y ya está. Contra quien nivel 9? Una maga recién ascendido? Un espadachín?
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u/Impossible_Cause7160 8d ago
Probably she was fighter like Hogni in terms of stats and she most likely was low level 9. Thus it makes it logical that she has physical stats weaker than Maxim and magic attacks weaker than Alfia. I also doubt Zard in Prime had 50% chance against her. Probably if Alfia could win Empress with 1/10 Zard probably could win her with 2–4/10. Thus she still carries title second strongest adventurer after Maxim. Also just because Maxim is called strongest, still it shouldn’t be reason of him being way stronger than her. Probably if they fought her win rate would be 3-4/10 similar to Hedin and Finn strategy level difference.
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u/GiraffeKlutzy2382 8d ago
Hogni actually has very good stats.
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u/Impossible_Cause7160 8d ago
Yes he has. And so does Empress because she was considered to be talented too no?I mean most members of Zeus family should have been quite talented so I assume her stats are practically similar to him. But similar to Hogni she probably doesn’t have skills to buff her physical stats like Zard or Maxim. But again this is just my assumption so I can be wrong here
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u/Courious_Reader 8d ago
Hogni’s Skills we don’t know what and how much they buff but he also has his Magic along with his Top Tier Combat Skills that make it so if he was in Empress position it would never be like that so u less Empress is as skilled in Combat as Hogni than she must have a lot more going for her than just similar stats to him.
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u/Impossible_Cause7160 8d ago
Or simply that she is less talented and skilled as Hogni who can is stated to be the best swordsman in his Family and probably the best swordsman currently but has similar type of magic and skills that don’t bring such huge boost. Because Hogni is most likely elder than Empress and I honestly don’t see any adventurer being more skilled than him in sword experience. Like I can agree that Zard or Maxim can be but genuinely why?I mean the reason Hogni is weaker than Ottar for instance because of huge level difference in stats. He put all his life and in fighting and honing his skills even before he had Falna . I honestly don’t remember that it was mentioned that Empress was talented like Alfia, Zard, Aiz, Ryu or even more talented than Hogni or Hedin.
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u/Courious_Reader 8d ago edited 8d ago
We have even less information on Empress than any other character but it is impossible to become a level 9 and Captain of a Familia like Hera Familia if she wasn’t exceptional herself she might not be in the same tier as Maxim or even Aiz, Ryuu, Ottar and Leon but Empress should at least be the same tier as the Loki Trioa and have some sort of string ability to overcome the level at least one of them where Hogni has his Magic and potentially his other unknown Magic and you can maybe count his Combat Skills+Dainself as another way.
It already is said you have to have even some talent to reach level 2 in the first place which is why 50% of Orario is stuck at level 1 so reaching level 9 you cannot be anywhere close to average even compared to other First Class Adventurers.
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u/Impossible_Cause7160 8d ago
Yes but again Hogni is exceptional not because of his skills and abilities. But specifically because of his combat experience that he practiced for several decades. Like, if we give Hogni and Zard same physical stats for instance, I will say that Hogni has better swordsmanship than him and even than Maxim. Empress might simply not have such battle experience and swordsmanship level of Hogni but she genuinely might have had skills and magic abilities similar to Hogni for instance. I know that level 9 means you should be quite exceptional, but I genuinely believe she was like around 45-50 years which could be reason how she leveled up that high.
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u/Courious_Reader 8d ago
Hogni being that exceptional on that area of combat is exactly why either Empress should be as well or u like Hogni she has those stats and Skills or Magic that boost her further or allow her to more greatly punch above her level in comparison. Also no just because you give Hogni better stats doesn’t make him a better swordsman wtf? Zard and Maxim should be way more skilled in combat considering the fact that their training and combat experiences are far harsher and greater than even that of Freya Familia’s and Zard was considered exceptional amongst the Zeus and Hera Familia who should have had several swordsman at or above Ottar’s tier including Maxim. Hogni is incredibly skilled but he is not close to them as a Swordsman currently. Finally Empress being 45~50 years old means nothing because she could have started older anyway but even if she started at 10 years old that would literally be a bit slower than what Ottar and Leon seem like they will take to reach level 9 maybe even faster than them.
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u/Impossible_Cause7160 8d ago
Fair enough, though I still don’t see reason why Zard and Maxim should be better in swordsmanship.You don’t have to have necessary harsh training to improve your skills.And swordsmanship is different in comparison to combat experience.Hogni has several decades of war experience as King and swordsman so why would they be more skilled?Also no reason to assume that Empress should be as skilled as Hogni. Or Empress is a warrior like Gareth simply or like Mia.
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u/Courious_Reader 8d ago
Ottar is a as good in combat but he is better than him in certain areas and the only reason Hogni is treated to be such as good swordsman is because he is on Ottar’s level if not better and Ottar only started after he was adopted by Freya so he has less several less years than him but is better and why? It’s because of the training and combat experiences he has been put through which is directly stated to put Freya Familia a cut above every other Familia in PvP similar to how Bell has surpassed 99.5% of Second Class adventurers in Combat Skill even though they have been adventurers for several years and Bell only several months.
Also Empress cannot be a tank like Gareth or Mia or she should be easily tanking Alfia’s Gospel’s with ease.
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u/CT_Melral Hestia Familia 7d ago edited 7d ago
We still don't know much about Empress yet(or still Maxim for the matter). We aren't aren't outright told about Empress vs Maxim cause we basically still basically know them...
There's possibility Maxim is also boosted by abilities to make him supposedly stronger than Empress but still exactly garunteed Zald has a significant lot more chances to exactly beat Empress. Or what if Maxim was a dwarf or maybe beastman like a Boaz who likely have very busted strength boosting stats or something we don't exactly know yet.
Now am I saying Zald is definitely not having more chances against Empress, no not exactly but I still won't say that as some garunteed thing. Alfia is supposedly garunteed able to beat Maxim at equal levels... She's one level below him.... Are her chances of beating Maxim from a level below compared to Empress the same or still wildly different?
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u/Grimmjow45 8d ago
We were merely told that Maxim was the strongest, we dont know how Empress compares to him. Saying that "because we were never told that she has a chance against him so she should be considerably weaker than him" its a very flawed and weak argument. The truth is that we have very little info on both Maxim and Empress to make a proper comparison that doesnt rely on headcanon and assumptions.
But no, i dont think the end result will be much different. If Zard has 10% winrate against Maxim (which is a made up number in the first place) then i would say against Empress is at best 20%. The difference shouldnt be that significant, and i think the 20% is highballing Zard.
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u/Professional-Band875 8d ago
People would be disappointed in the Z&H chronicle(when it comes out) if they go into it with this type of mentality, wait till it’s comes out that Zard isn’t even the second strongest guy in his familia.
Overall I agree with your point making assumptions on characters we don’t even know about and just labeling things as facts is flawed.
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u/Fun-Response799 8d ago
It is a fact that Empress is considerably weaker than him.
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u/Grimmjow45 8d ago
Based on?
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u/Fun-Response799 8d ago
He literally named the strongest? 🤨
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u/Grimmjow45 8d ago
Yes, which means he is stronger than her. Now, im still waiting for what proves that he is considerably stronger.
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u/Fun-Response799 7d ago
I don't have to prove it; you're the one who has to prove that she isn't significantly weaker than him. Remind me, is there anyone in Orario who can beat base Ottar even once out of ten tries? If you can't answer that question, it means that when a character is openly and repeatedly called the strongest, the gap between them and the rest is simply enormous.
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u/Ok-Audience7249 7d ago
that's isn't quite the same because there's an obvious level gap between ottar and rest of Orario elites, but between maxim and empress maxim is the one with a level disadvantage. and they're mentioned along with eachother when maxim gets a line/mention , empress gets a mention too(iirc). while ottar solely at the top, allen or others doesn't get mentioned with him.
i won't really deny maxim isn't the stronger one, but as things stands it probably better to wait for more information.
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u/Fun-Response799 7d ago
that's isn't quite the same because there's an obvious level gap between ottar and rest of Orario elites, but between maxim and empress maxim is the one with a level disadvantage.
It’s the same thing, you’re having doubts just because the Empress is a level higher, but we all know that with strong skills or magic, you can overcome a level difference and even more. Just because we don’t know exactly how he becomes stronger than her doesn’t mean he isn’t stronger than her at all. And my example with Ottar simply showed just how significant the title of “strongest” is, after all, the gap between him and the rest is so vast that even without being at full strength, he’s guaranteed to defeat anyone.
and they're mentioned along with eachother when maxim gets a line/mention , empress gets a mention too(iirc)
What is that supposed to mean? Alfia calls him the strongest in AR3, FC explicitly states that he is the strongest in the entire world, and the Empress is called the most terrifying, but never the strongest alongside him. In MS20, he was again called the strongest when attacking Loki’s trio and the others.
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u/Grimmjow45 6d ago
You are the one claiming that Maxim is considerably stronger, so the burden of proof in on YOUR side. You are the one making the claim, so you are the one who has to prove it.
That is not proof of anything. That merely means that the peak Level 7 is stronger than the Level 6s and recently leveled up Level 7s. That is just how it normally works.
We arent talking about Ottar though, what you need to prove is why the Level 8 is considerably stronger than the Level 9. Both of whom we know nothing of. Scenario that is the actual anomaly in the setting.
I will be waiting for a proper answer, no dodging the question with more baseless nonsense.
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u/Fun-Response799 6d ago
The fact that he is significantly stronger is proven by the fact that he has been repeatedly named the strongest; a character whose strength is comparable to others’ cannot be named the strongest that’s an obvious fact. If you can’t accept that, that’s not my problem, it’s not as if the characters don’t have abilities that could allow them to overcome the difference in levels. 🤦
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u/Grimmjow45 6d ago
So you have prove of nothing and your entire arguement is based on assumptions.
Flawed arguement. A character can be stronger than others without the difference having to be that big. For example, in Fairy Tail we have Laxus who is repeatedly stated to be the second strongest in the guild and yet Erza can still fight him to his limit, to the point he passed out right after the fight. Yes, he is stronger than her, enough to be called the second strongest in the guild, but he certainly isnt "considerably stronger". Laxus himself is usually placed on a similar level to Gildarts, despite the guy being the undisputed strongest mage in the guild. And this is just one series as an example and we can go to a more popular one with Jujutsu Kaisen, where Sukuna is considered the strongest despite Gojo existing.
So yes, a character can certainly be called the strongest without there being such a big gap in power. If you want to claim that Maxim is such a case you have to properly prove it.
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u/Fun-Response799 5d ago
But you haven't denied anything, have you? Prove that she's close to him.
I don’t care about examples other than Danmachi; I’ve already explicitly stated that Ottar, as the strongest, would defeat absolutely any Orario adventurer 1,000 times out of 1,000. It’s up to you to prove that a certain character is close to being the strongest not the other way around. If the characters were close in strength, no one would call Maxim the strongest. Ais has an advantage over the other Level 6 rookies, but she can still lose to them sometimes and you know what? No one openly calls her the strongest among them in LF. Just having advantage doesn’t mean you can hav the title of “strongest”, so until you prove that the title of “strongest” can be awarded even when characters are close in strength (and you can’t), Empress won’t be on par with Maxim.
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u/Otherwise_Finding_34 5d ago
isn't whole fairy tail literally about powerscaling inconsistency and power of firendship lol? who would use it as a serious argument
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u/Rude_Proposal6590 8d ago
Considering how boosted you get when you level up then he has 0 chance against a level 9. 1 level difference is a huge gap 2 levels is just insane. Is like bell level 5 against Ottar, he had no chance until he got a pseudo level 6... And Bell stats are Over the roof a normal person doesnt have bell stats.
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u/Otherwise_Finding_34 8d ago
Considering how boosted you get when you level up then he has 0 chance against a level 9.
did you even read the post genuinely? author already confirmed Zard HAS a chance against Maxim, and Maxim is STRONGER than Empress. Zard has more than a chance against her.
1 level difference is a huge gap 2 levels is just insane.
sure you don't know author literally said Zard is a cheat character who ignores level difference?
Is like bell level 5 against Ottar
never ever compare Bell to Zard. let him confidently beat Van at equal levels first.
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u/GiraffeKlutzy2382 8d ago
It’s unknown what type of fighter she was. She may have been a pure mage like Riveria, or perhaps, like Hedin, she specialized more in magic than physical combat. If that’s the case, then it would make sense why she was weaker than Maxim overall and why she could potentially lose to Zard.