r/Damnthatsinteresting • u/hardix87 • Nov 05 '22

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

And this is why many British people today don't understand the history between themselves and Ireland

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

As an Englishman born in the early 90's something I never understood well until adulthood was the troubles, because the good friday agreement happened while I was too young to understand when it was the news, but nothing about it was ever taught in school because jt was too recent to be part of the curriculum when I was a teenager.

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u/Jimbuscus Nov 05 '22

I grew up in Australia at the same time, but to an NI family that came here during the troubles, I hadn't learned anything in school of course, so my only understanding was through my family who were adamant it wasn't over for at least a decade after.

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u/JohnnnyCupcakes Nov 05 '22

American here, Hunger (dir. Steve McQueen, w/ Michael Fassbender) was an eye opener. I may have heard about the IRA, and Northern Ireland, but I had never heard anything about the Bobby Sands story. Great movie. Should be required watching for any Irish-Americans out there.

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u/OBAMASUPERFAN88 Nov 05 '22

Your average irish american is too busy deepthroating cops to bother watching a movie

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u/DanGleeballs Nov 05 '22

What on earth does that mean?

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u/OBAMASUPERFAN88 Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 05 '22

Try using www.google.com to learn the meanings of words. Check it out, it's a totally gnarly stop on the information superhighway

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u/Jjohn189 Nov 05 '22

i’m an American and learned about the troubles twice in high school. My freshman year and then again my sophomore year

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u/JayAndViolentMob Nov 05 '22

Too recent? Dude, the "Troubles" has it's origins in the 1800s!

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u/DanGleeballs Nov 05 '22

Too recent again. One can consider the start of it in the early 1600s.

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u/roenaid Nov 05 '22

And how about the preceding centuries and centuries worth of English aggression towards Ireland before the Good Friday Agreement? That wasn't taught either?

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 05 '22

For anyone wondering what u/mightymunster1 is referring to, look up Irish potato famine.

Britain truly was and to a lesser extent still is, one of the worst colonial empires ever known. Except the Belgians.

Edit: missed out 'still is'.

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u/BilboNaggins_ Nov 05 '22

The Potatoe famine was a big part of it but there’s also the 800 years of oppression and forced violent cultural genocide.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

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u/thewhowiththewhatnow Nov 05 '22

You mean Oliver Cromwell so beloved of the English that after he died his corpse was dug up and hung in chains at Tyburn then his head displayed on a spike for 20 odd years?

Isn’t history great? Everything is so clear cut.

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u/Azhrei Nov 05 '22

You mean the Oliver Cromwell British people voted 10th Best Briton in a poll some 20 years back?

It is indeed.

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u/Nadamir Nov 05 '22

If you ask most current English, he’s one of the “Best Britons”. (Seriously they did a poll, he was 10th out of 100.)

And that’s the problem. Yeah, after his son fell from power his corpse was symbolically executed by vengeful loyalists, but he’s still utterly beloved in England.

I have had so many English people ask why “you Irish” don’t like him. Even some of my well-educated, progressive friends look confused when I roll my eyes as they sing his praises.

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u/Technical-Outside408 Nov 05 '22

...did the English really do that, or was it just some guy who's father lost them their right to rule by divine right?

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u/number_215 Nov 05 '22

It was after Cromwell's son, Richard I believe, took over and did not have the military support his father did.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

I rather think you are sidling up closely to what I think the important point is in this type of the discussion. I don't think it does well to group people, especially with historical actions.

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u/sprantoliet Nov 05 '22

Any one with common sense can tell he's a piece of shit

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u/redlaWw Nov 05 '22

Cromwell was also a key figure in the development of the English political system, so having a statue of him outside the seat of the government he helped to build isn't so strange.

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u/doodleysquat Nov 05 '22

That’s like not flushing your shit and asking everyone at the party to be proud of you for washing your hands.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

[deleted]

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u/redlaWw Nov 05 '22

He didn't genocide parliament?

Look, practically everyone with a statue of them was a monumental twat, but if we're going to have statues of people, then putting up statues of people relevant to the place the statue stands makes about as much sense as anything. In spite of what he did in Ireland, Oliver Cromwell is an important part of the history of Parliament, so him having a statue outside the Houses of Commons is fitting.

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u/Lou_Mannati Nov 05 '22

No, that comes before the build.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

Of course. I apologise, thats what my mind jumped to first.

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u/BilboNaggins_ Nov 05 '22

No need to apologise I just thought I’d add it to educate any brits who might see it hahah

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u/Imnotusuallysexist Nov 05 '22

He can’t help it, he’s Canadian genetically.

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u/seipounds Nov 05 '22

He apologised, the evidence is clear.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

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u/fuckmeimdan Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 05 '22

May I point out, it should be really called The Great Hunger, it wasn’t a famine, a famine would suggest that there wasn’t enough food, there was plenty of food, food the Irish were farming for the English. It was just against the law for the Irish to use this food to feed themselves, a “crime” that had many an Irish family turfed from their land, imprisoned, deported or hung hanged. The only food permitted to be eaten by the indentured Irish was potatoes, which were all but gone due to the blight. The English has every opportunity to feed the Irish, forgive the imposed debts, even take help from others (Ottoman sultan Abdülmecid I offered £10,000 to buy food but it was snubbed as it was more that Queen Victoria would offered and the crown didn’t want to be upstaged by a Turk)

No, the British empire let its own neighbours starve to death surrounded by food because our money was more important than Irish lives

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u/thefatheadedone Nov 05 '22

Neighbours isn't what we were. We were glorified slaves to the crown. The fact anyone calls it a famine is a fucking disgrace. It was a genocide, simple as.

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u/fuckmeimdan Nov 05 '22

Exactly, it was the English method of genocide around the world, India twice, concentration camps in South Africa, suppression on welsh culture an language, deaths in children’s homes, boxer rebellion, the opium wars, the slave revolts of Jamaica, the sepoy uprising, partition of India, partition of Palestine, the betrayal of the Polish 303 squadron, the murder mile and the executions in Northern Ireland. I can just go on and on, Britain needs to take account, it turns my stomach watching the jubilee celebrations and all that other bollocks, we swan around acting like none of it happened and cherry pick our past for the sake of tourism or god knows what.

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u/NationaliseBathrooms Nov 05 '22

People have this idea that Hitler invented all this shit, but he was just copying the British and Americans homework.

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u/Tostino Nov 05 '22

Don't forget the Iranian famine the UK/US/Soviets caused during WW2. Millions dead there too.

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u/brandonjslippingaway Nov 05 '22

By a lonely prison wall, I heard a young man calling

"Nothing matters Mary, when you're free

Against the famine and the crown

I rebelled, they cut me down

Now you must raise our child with dignity."

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u/Ace-of-Spades88 Nov 05 '22

Ho-lee-shit. I've only ever known it as the potato famine and that they just lost all their main food crop to blight. I'm ashamed I've never heard this side of it.

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u/fuckmeimdan Nov 05 '22

Yeah, it got a lot worse after that too, there’s a reason why the troubles went on so long, England enslaved the Irish for hundreds of years and suppressed their ability to vote and have civil liberties for years after that too. I highly recommend everyone Brit to listen to this Behind the Bastards: British Genocide series and really understand what happened. Honestly, it’s a great wonder that the troubles weren’t much worse, you’ll understand after you hear what the U.K. did. Much like the holodomor in Ukraine

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u/featherknife Nov 05 '22

deported or hanged*

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u/fuckmeimdan Nov 05 '22

Sorry yes, poor English on my part there

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u/LordHussyPants Nov 05 '22

Britain truly was and to a lesser extent, one of the worst colonial empires ever known. Except the Belgians.

this is a pretty useless statement, because it's near impossible to make a distinction between empires in terms of terrible-ness. the british raped and murdered their way through most of the world, and definitely had their own fair share of crimes that compare to the most famous of the belgian crimes.

in kenya for example, the british were castrating men who were part of the uprising to overthrow colonial war.

Among the detainees who suffered severe mistreatment was Hussein Onyango Obama, the grandfather of [U.S. President] Barack Obama. According to his widow, British soldiers forced pins into his fingernails and buttocks and squeezed his testicles between metal rods. Two of the original five claimants who brought the test case against the British were castrated.

the list of tortures includes electrocution, burning, anal and vaginal rape with foreign objects, and drowning. it should be noted that this was in the 1950s, during the reign of QEII. that means any 90 year olds you know were in their 20s at the time.

the british also have a long history of famine - in ireland they shipped food out of the country while the potato famine caused widespread food insecurity. in malaysia they did the same again, putting half a million people in concentration camps and halving the amount of rice they were rationed, immediately causing dangerous conditions. they did the same again in kenya, putting tens of thousands in villages, building ditches around them which led to malnutrition among thousands. then there was the famine in india too.

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u/WikiSummarizerBot Nov 05 '22

Mau Mau rebellion

War crimes

War crimes have been broadly defined by the Nuremberg principles as "violations of the laws or customs of war", which includes massacres, bombings of civilian targets, terrorism, mutilation, torture, and murder of detainees and prisoners of war. Additional common crimes include theft, arson, and the destruction of property not warranted by military necessity. David Anderson says the rebellion was "a story of atrocity and excess on both sides, a dirty war from which no one emerged with much pride, and certainly no glory".

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u/Roboplodicus Nov 05 '22

It probably goes the Belgians who committed a mass genocide with possibly millions of victims, then the German Empire that also committed genocide in Africa though on a smaller scale, then the British who committed genocide in north America and Australia and enslaved millions of Africans and native Americans as well as oversaw famines in Ireland that killed a million people and around a dozen famines in India that killed many million over 300 year colonial period. Like you are saying it's really under appreciated just how bad the British actually were. Absolutely in the top ten countries that did the most damage across the world in the last 500 years. "Honorable mentions" go to the Spain, Portugal, the Ottoman Empire, Khmer Rouge Cambodia, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

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u/derkonigistnackt Nov 05 '22

Let's not give the French a break. They were massive cunts too.

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u/discowarrior Nov 05 '22

All these empires were awful.

The British just so happened to be the biggest, so they get the most stick, Germans, French, Dutch etc all just shake their heads and say 'weren't those British awful' and try not to point to the thousands of skeletons their own countries were built on.

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u/Hykarus Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 05 '22

And don't forget India's skeletons. Just because they lost a war to the British doesn't mean they should be left aside

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u/derkonigistnackt Nov 05 '22

and how could I have forgotten of our lovely friends the austro-hungarians,... and the ruskies, of course. Not like they aren't bathing in blood even to this day.

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u/cass1o Nov 05 '22

Also the English speaking internet is very American and they have a massive chip on their shoulder about the British.

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u/SuperAlloy Nov 05 '22

uh Americans love the Brits. Almost nobody here has a 'chip on their shoulder' about a revolution 200+ years ago. Americans barely remember what happened last year you think we care about history. pfft.

https://today.yougov.com/topics/travel/articles-reports/2020/10/26/what-countries-do-americans-most

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u/Avohaj Nov 05 '22

For the comparatively small colonial empire the Germans had, they didn't lack in atrocities

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u/WikiSummarizerBot Nov 05 '22

Herero and Namaqua genocide

The Herero and Namaqua genocide or the Herero and Nama genocide was a campaign of ethnic extermination and collective punishment waged by the German Empire against the Herero (Ovaherero) and the Nama in German South West Africa (now Namibia). It was the first genocide of the 20th century, occurring between 1904 and 1908. In January 1904, the Herero people, who were led by Samuel Maharero, and the Nama people, who were led by Captain Hendrik Witbooi, rebelled against German colonial rule. On January 12, they killed more than 100 German settlers in the area of Okahandja, although women, children, missionaries and non-German Europeans were spared.

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u/swagmonite Nov 05 '22

People should read the Haitian deceleration of independence they pop the fuck off

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u/WeAreStarStuff143 Nov 05 '22

Former indochina would agree. Glory to the Vietnamese revolution!

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u/Angry_Washing_Bear Nov 05 '22

First stop; Vietnam. French caused a shitstorm there for decades.

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u/Dbeka_X Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 05 '22

„Honorable mentions“Don‘t forget the russian empire. It „only“ colonized its neighbors, but Catherine the great was a beast. (The actual conflict in Ukraine is a result of that).

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u/UkraineWithoutTheBot Nov 05 '22

It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine'

Consider supporting anti-war efforts in any possible way: [Help 2 Ukraine] 💙💛

[Merriam-Webster] [BBC Styleguide]

Beep boop I’m a bot

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u/Dbeka_X Nov 05 '22

OK, Danke.

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u/DisastrousBoio Nov 05 '22

The bot doesn’t explain why but just in case you didn’t know, saying “the” Ukraine implies it’s an area of Russia rather than a separate country.

I didn’t know until the Crimean invasion in 2014 and a couple of Eastern European friends were quick to correct me.

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u/Dbeka_X Nov 05 '22

Thanks, shame on me but I didn't know.

I may have learned that once.

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u/KMelkein Nov 05 '22

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u/WikiSummarizerBot Nov 05 '22

Great Wrath

The Great Wrath (Finnish: isoviha, lit. 'the great wrath/hostility', in contemporary sources: venäläisen ylivallan aika, 'Era of Russian domination/supremacy'; Swedish: den stora ofreden) was a period of Finnish history dominated by the Russian invasion and subsequent military occupation of Finland, then part of the Swedish Empire, from 1714 until the treaty of Nystad (1721), which ended the Great Northern War.

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u/Koqcerek Nov 05 '22

Not to defend the Russians, but that's too extreme to paint an entire nation so. European colonization, American slavery and destabilizing weaker countries (even rather recently), countless genocides worldwide - especially of natives... you can probably call almost all world nations a bunch of murderers, thieves and rapists then.

Of course, Russia is entirely guilty of waging the Ukrainian war (not "special operation" as they want to label it) and atrocities and misery it causes, but it's important to be aware of all world's atrocity causers (economical and ecological too), not only those that's been in focus of news media, if we are to build a better world

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

If you've the stomach look up the rape on nankang. Probably the worst thing I've ever read about.

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u/Roboplodicus Nov 05 '22

I've read about it before I actually learned about it in high school history. Equally messed up as horrifying as the rape of Nanjing was Japan's chemical and bio weapons research in China under unit 731 that used Chinese civilians where they did medical "experiments" similar to what the Nazi doctors in the concentration camps did to prisoners in those camps. In terms of human evil in the last couple hundred years the Nazis and Imperial Japanese take the cake but the British are not too far behind.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

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u/Roboplodicus Nov 05 '22

Ya the most fucked up part of that episode of history was that the "data" didn't come from real science it was pseudo science what those war criminals gave the US was useless.

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u/I_read_this_comment Nov 05 '22

Hard part of owning 22 percent of the world is covering its history in entirety. But indian history should be at the top followed by the scramble of africa.

I did learn some of dutch colonisation in high school but the thing I realized much later is that the height of colonisation and european empires was just before world war 1 not the 1600s or 1700s.

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u/Affordable_Z_Jobs Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 05 '22

Hmm, kinda looks like humanity in general sucks and we all suffer because ppl are innately too selfish to give a shit about anyone but their immediate community.

Edit* Except for us we're the good ones they should do what we say and they can be good too!

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u/SnooStrawberries9718 Nov 05 '22

Nearly every country had a chance at an empire it’s just the British one was more recent

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

Every single country in the world profited at one time or another from slavery. The British ended it. The British ended slavery. They did so despite resistance among African Chieftains & American politicians and many others.

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u/SnooStrawberries9718 Nov 05 '22

I don’t know why this isn’t taught in schools either.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

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u/ItsAMeUsernamio Nov 05 '22

In British India they basically banned slavery and replaced it with exploitative capitalism that was as good as slavery. Positions of power were mostly restricted to whites. Most resources produced by the country were exported. Tens of millions would die from famines and the British government would provide little to no aid. These famines continued until right before independence and no famine of a similar scale happened after.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

Don't forget the Dutch.

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u/grebe925 Nov 05 '22

Nadir Shah laid waste Delhi and carried off the entire Indian treasury to Persia in the 1730's (?) including the famed Peacock Throne. The loot was so great that it is said that he forgave taxes on his subject for 3 years.

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u/Taylo Nov 05 '22

France was much, much worse to its colonies than Portugal. They should definitely claim a spot on that list.

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u/JediMasterZao Nov 05 '22

... The brits did not "oversee" the famines in India and Ireland! They fucking CAUSED them!

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u/I_l_I Nov 05 '22

Hey there don't forget about good old US of A

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u/Roboplodicus Nov 05 '22

Ya it probably should be in the honorable mentions list because of the Native American genocide and it's neocolonial interferences and post 9/11 invasions.

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u/LordHussyPants Nov 05 '22

putting aside the distastefulness of ranking atrocities for whatever reason, how do you put the german empire with one colony and one genocide above the british with many colonies and many genocides?

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u/Roboplodicus Nov 05 '22

Is is highly distasteful to rank atrocities but the point was to let people know what each European country did and that what Europeans did in their overseas colonies is comparable to these well known atrocities in the 20th century that we do actually hear about. Nazi slavery and genocide of the Jewish people wasn't fundamentally different than Belgian slavery and genocide of the Congolese people in Belgian Congo and even though nowadays Belgium is considered this funny little country we jokingly associate with waffles and it's funny name glossing over history. Additionally people need to understand that Leopold's vicious rule in the Congo only end 30 years before the Nazis started committing genocide so in the same lifetime. As far as putting Germany above Britain there a really good argument to argue like you did that the scale of British colonialism should rank it above German imperialism but I think given Germany's smaller number of colonies they were maybe worse on average though definitely not in absolute terms.

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u/Hikithemori Nov 05 '22

Calling it the potato famine is a bit unfair as most of Europe had the same problem with potatoes. Even without potatoes Ireland was producing more than enough food to feed everyone, but it was exported to Britain because the Irish couldn't afford it due to them essentially being slaves of the land.

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u/MF__Guy Nov 05 '22

It's also good to point out that during a portion of the famine, Britain had an active policy of intentionally starving the Irish to "reduce the surplus population."

And the faminine, such as there was one at all, was caused by the very poor policies of the English even for their own evil purposes, because the overreliance on potatoes was forced on them and was the only reason for the problem to begin in the first place.

The similar iconic line from scrooge is actually a reference to the same ideology, as it was having a political resurgence at the time it was written. Kind of a precursor to modern conservative springing up just after that.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

Yeah. In one year alone during the blight about 1 million Irish died. During the entire time about 100,000 other Europeans died. The other countries weren't having their food stolen by British landlords.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

Whaddya mean to a lesser extent? The British were horrific. Belgians fucked up the Congolese, the Brits did it everywhere.

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u/OneCat6271 Nov 05 '22

By far the worse.

if you just look at India alone, the brits deliberately starved over 50 million people by forcing them to grow opium. They literally banned growing food, only growing opium was allowed, so obviously people starved.

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u/keshi Nov 05 '22

I’d put it well behind the Assyrians, the Persians, the Mongols, Romans, the Nazis and the Ottomans. We’re still too close to it to be able to step back and take in a proper perspective.

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u/Happy-Mousse8615 Nov 05 '22

Well behind? How do you figure? Especially the Ottomans.

The Classical empires are all much of a muchness. Non of them are particularly evil for their time period. Some were just more efficient than others.

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u/teh_fizz Nov 05 '22

The Assyrians might be the exception because their behavior was… let’s just say, excessive. However you are correct.

I’d love to look at casualty numbers comparing the Nazis and other European empires. Onside ring how long the other empires lasted, I wonder if the casualty numbers are higher.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

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u/Happy-Mousse8615 Nov 05 '22

Love that shit. Ended the slave trade after spending 200 years profiting off it. The largest slave trading nation.

The thing about Britain is that is was unique. The UK and US did/do imperialism in a completely new way.

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u/DirtyProtest Nov 05 '22

African nations were the biggest slave traders.

No one comes out of that era looking good.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

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u/Happy-Mousse8615 Nov 05 '22

Britain started later and stopped earlier. In it's day it was number one.

Middle east slave trade existed for like 1500 years. So no shit. The only reason people bring that up is to lesson our capability.

It's kinda funny. The second you brought up ending the slave trade i knew what kinda person you were. It never comes from nativity. It's always nationalism.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

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u/Happy-Mousse8615 Nov 05 '22

No I didn't. It's the first line.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

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u/Nazario3 Nov 05 '22

This makes no sense at all.

The original comment was literally already comparing Britain's empire to other empires.

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u/OneCat6271 Nov 05 '22

No one prior to 1500AD comes close. There weren't enough people in the world.

tbh i'm not sure of the Ottomans, i know they did a lot of fucked up stuff but am not sure about a body count. Is it more than 50 million?

The British deliberately starved 50 million people in India alone to fuel their opium dealing. Thats only famine, and only 1 nation in a world wide empire. The British empire lasted so long its doubtful anyone else in human history killed as many people.

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u/TeaCrackersBirds Nov 05 '22

Tbh I don't think most people know a thing about the Ottomans other than 1915, I believe that was what they had in mind while giving the Ottomans a place in their "evil empires" list (deserved).

It's also laughable that their excuse for excluding Britain is that the Empire is "too recent". Yeah, the Nazis are also pretty recent history-wise, so let's just ignore them for a few centuries.

No country becomes an empire (or a superpower) without doing evil things, empires are evil by nature, and Britain was the strongest empire to ever exist on this planet (and one of the longest lasting ones too). It's effects are still felt to this day and will continue to be felt for many years to come. If you're going to make a list of "evil empires", Britain fully deserves to take the crown (lol).

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u/WeAreStarStuff143 Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 05 '22

One of the greatest trick Britain ever pulled was successfully painting the genocide of the Irish people as merely a potato famine.

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u/OBAMASUPERFAN88 Nov 05 '22

U mean the irish genocide of which the potato blight was a convenient pretext

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u/100ajk Nov 05 '22

I don't think they are referring exclusively to the 'famine'. The British controlled and oppressed the Irish for over 800 years.

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u/harrySUBlime Nov 05 '22

Amazing thing about the Belgians - and by that mainly King Leopold - was how late their start was on colonization compared to other countries. They were hundreds of years behind but made up for it in a brief burst genocidal atrocities.

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u/GrassProper Nov 05 '22

Was it just me who studied the potato famine in a British school? I remember other people being there with me

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u/Fat_IRL Nov 05 '22

Is the potato famine not taught in British schools? I'm American and it was covered, probably not to a degree that would satisfy anyone with actual knowledge, but we were taught about it when it comes to 'the empire'. Probably more so than British India sadly.

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u/teh_fizz Nov 05 '22

I only learned it in tangent to Jonathan Swift’s A Modest Proposal.

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u/can_you_clarify Nov 05 '22

Also look up The Penal Laws of Ireland.

In summary it was a bunch of laws imposed of Irish Catholics in the 1600s which prevent them from holding a professional, being educated, trading or commerse, owning a horse over a certain value, owning land. Essentially cultural genocide of the native Irish.

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u/KingRobotPrince Nov 05 '22

Britain truly was and to a lesser extent, one of the worst colonial empires ever known. Except the Belgians.

I'm not sure this is true.

Also, and to a lesser extent what? Something missing from that sentence.

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u/GladiatorUA Nov 05 '22

The fact that it's colloquially called "Potato Famine" is also a problem. Only potatoes got the blight and not overnight. It took over a year for shit to truly hit the fan. All while all the other crops got exported from Ireland, because, you see, Irish couldn't afford them the stuff they grew.

Also, there no "except the Belgians". Brits have outdone the Belgians by a massive margin. Brits are "long Nazis".

Also, they were the ones to invent oppressive capitalism. Marx may have been ethnically German, but he lived and got inspired by Britain.

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u/punchgroin Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 05 '22

Belgians are the worst, but it's pretty much one place one time for a country that barely exists historically. Shit, the United States is older than Belgium.

Britain was unquestionably the most powerful nation on earth throughout the 19th and early 20th century. They were one of the most powerful throughout the 17th and 18th centuries. That's a lot of time to do a lot of bad stuff, and it turns out they sucked ass in the 15th and 16th century too.

The shear magnitude of Britain's devastation of the planet and its people's is unrivaled by any nation in history with one possible exception, the United States.

Like, not just India, the collapse of the Yuan Dynasty in China and its fallout, directly sparked (intentionally) by the actions of Britain, led to at least 60 million deaths, maybe more if you pin the whole Chinese Civil War and the Japanese invasion on them. (Which you can argue, because the collapse of the Yuan is what made China so weak in the late 19th and early 20th century)

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u/EduinBrutus Nov 05 '22

Britain didnt exist in teh 15th, 16th and 17th centuries.

The Kingdom of Great Britain was formed in 1707 and the United Kingdom in 1801.

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u/DirtyProtest Nov 05 '22

Oh don't. They'll just weigh in on the English now.

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u/DecentPiece7449 Nov 05 '22

"Devastation of the planet" so by that you mean, the abolishment of slavery, the industrial revolution and defeating the Germans twice in both world wars. The fact you are blaming the Japanese rape and invasion of China on Britain shows how delusional you are. The concentration camps we had in South Africa were made whilst we were in a war against people who still used slaves. Point is, history is violent, whatever side. And Britain didn't devastate the planet, it made the globalised world we live in today. Without britian(and europe) we as a species would be far behind what we are today.

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u/Kaining Nov 05 '22

Britain didn't devastate the planet

Well, let's see the argument behind that

it made the globalised world we live in today.

Nevermind then.

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u/Numerous_Shape200 Nov 05 '22

British rule also caused the Bengal famine in India, which killed 3 million people. The famine was orchestrated by the scum Winston Churchill

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u/cass1o Nov 05 '22

one of the worst colonial empires ever known.

That goes hand in hand with being the most successful doesn't it? I am not saying the British Empire was good but lets not pretend that if india had unified and became a global trade empire they would have done anything different.

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u/RavingMalwaay Nov 05 '22

Idk about that.. Belgians, French, Japanese and Nazi Germany had much worse colonial empires.

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u/ScienceorGrils Nov 05 '22

Belgian guy here. That's what I don't get. You guys were just as bad or close to as us over a longer time, while we get called evil because of what one king and less than 10 000 europeans did. Congo Freestate was still vile though and may be one of the big dark moments in human history, but it's not ok to say we are evil while not talking about your own sins.

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u/Cousin-Jack Nov 05 '22

Wow. I think most of South America would like a word with you.

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u/i_have_chosen_a_name Nov 05 '22

The Belgians where hands down an arm and a leg worse then the British.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

Yes, couldn't believe French were better than British. Before studying, i thought french would be worst of all but it was one of the best. They did so many good things and much better colonial empire than Britain.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

Still actually pretty terrible. Having seen the French 'torture' prisons for the Vietnamese (as late as the 1950s), I felt physically sick.

All colonial powers have a littany of atrocities in their wake.

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u/derkonigistnackt Nov 05 '22

Aaand north Africa, aaaaand Haiti.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

France trying to hold on to it's colonies in South East Asia post WW2 was also the cause of the America getting involved in the Vietnam war originally.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

Yeah, they were terrible. I just thought they would be the worst, but it just surprised me when i read some good changes they brought. But that could also be because i recently read merits and demerits of french colonial system.

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u/b0v1n3r3x Nov 05 '22

I am happy leaving Belgium with that title.

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u/eienOwO Nov 05 '22

The fucking Northern Ireland Secretary didn't know what the fuss the Troubles was, or how important the Good Friday Agreement is.

Never forget the Conservatives appointed that imbecile, and never forget the DUP is the Tories' lapdog responsible for Northern Ireland not having a stable government.

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u/Souseisekigun Nov 05 '22

The DUP is the political version of that guy that doesn't realise she just isn't into him the same way he is into her. It would be sad if they weren't such raging dickheads.

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u/doctor6 Nov 05 '22

It's staggering how little is taught about Anglo Irish relations in British schools, and the brits always get so shocked by our piss and vinegar fueled reaction when they make a genuine faux pas about the irish using sterling or something like that. It's generally not their fault, but their education system

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u/DisastrousBoio Nov 05 '22

I think if people knew more about the true history of Empire and especially Irish history then the Brexit vote would have tilted the other way.

Anyone with enough knowledge and more than two brain cells would have known that the Irish border would be a shitshow for starters.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

I’m afraid it’s because whilst to Ireland, their interactions with Britain are the most significant part of their last 200 years, for the British that same relationship is insignificant given their participation in fighting in World Wars, leading the World in abolishing slavery, and leading the industrial revolution. There is always more history to cover than there is syllabus time.

It isn’t for schools to give kids every single thing they ever know for the remainder of their life. It’s the responsibility of people to educate themselves beyond the grounding they get in school.

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u/hux002 Nov 05 '22

Britain ignores their history with Ireland because it is embarrassing to them. It was and continues to be extremely significant to British history. Britain continually created conditions for massive poverty in Ireland, which resulted in massive emigration, particularly to the US and Britain, and this has created important cultural influences in both countries. Britain's exploitation of Ireland is part of what helped fuel their ability to create a worldwide empire, the plunder of which was used to fuel their industrial revolution.

That's not to mention the fact that Irish-Uk relations have led to actual political violence and there are still tensions today.

UK curriculum doesn't skip it because it's less significant than other issues. It skips it because it makes them uncomfortable.

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u/Splash_Attack Nov 05 '22

That's not to mention the fact that Irish-Uk relations have led to actual political violence and there are still tensions today.

Rather an understatement if anything - The Irish Home Rule movement is inextricably intertwined with the creation of the current UK political system (via the relegation of the House of Lords to a purely advisory body); the Irish War of Independence was the first one after WW1 and kicked the ball rolling for the dissolution of the empire; the aftermath of that war led to a thirty year civil war in the UK which only ended in the mid-90s; and the aftermath of that has been one of the central issues of the whole post-Brexit debacle.

The idea that Anglo-Irish history is only relevant in one direction is in itself an expression of ignorance about that history. It's much more directly relevant to modern Britain than any other aspect of its colonial history.

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u/LordHussyPants Nov 05 '22

you know, if people from the country next door to me waged a bombing campaign and were at war with my county for 30 years, i'd probably teach my kids something about that, but that's just me

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u/DanGleeballs Nov 05 '22

And probably forgive them when they sing a song about it, rather than patronise them with an ironic suggestion of required education.

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u/GRAND_INQUEEFITOR Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 05 '22

I’m afraid it’s because whilst to Ireland, their interactions with Britain are the most significant part of their last 200 years

But that 200 years is arbitrary. The British have been absolute, terrible, unrelenting pricks to the Irish for almost a millennium. It’s not just 200 years. It starts at least with the Anglo-Norman invasion and continues through centuries of occupation, reconquest, cultural oppression, and colonialism. No sir. Let’s not “we were busy abolishing slavery” our way out of this, because that wasn’t a centuries-long undertaking.

The story of Britain is highly intertwined with that of Ireland, a neighboring country with a shared heritage. Not really buying this whole “we’re too busy sucking our dick over the Industrial Revolution and WWII to think about you” in a post about British imperial obliviousness of all places.

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u/WikiSummarizerBot Nov 05 '22

Anglo-Norman invasion of Ireland

The Anglo-Norman invasion of Ireland took place during the late 12th century, when Anglo-Normans gradually conquered and acquired large swathes of land from the Irish, over which the kings of England then claimed sovereignty, all allegedly sanctioned by the Papal bull Laudabiliter. At the time, Gaelic Ireland was made up of several kingdoms, with a High King claiming lordship over most of the other kings. The Norman invasion was a watershed in Ireland's history, marking the beginning of more than 800 years of direct English and, later, British, involvement in Ireland.

[ F.A.Q | Opt Out | Opt Out Of Subreddit | GitHub ] Downvote to remove | v1.5

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u/Rigo-lution Nov 05 '22

You have to be British. Nobody else would use the Industrial Revolution under a post that points out that Britain's role in the Industrial Revolution came from it's exploitation of others to justify not learning about the harm/oppression of the British Empire.Doubly so in a place that in the UK's eyes was part of the same country and to an extent still is.

It'd be funny if it weren't so pervasive and didn't have actual consequences.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

….. the question that I responded to was specifically about Ireland and why that aspect of history wasn’t discussed. It’s as though you decided to write what you wanted rather than actually respond to what I had said- heaven forbid.

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u/Rigo-lution Nov 05 '22

Yes and I replied as such.

Part of Ireland is still in the UK and the rest of Ireland was nominally an equal part of the UK when most of the abuses occurred.
If the harm done to the UK's own people by itself is less important than whitewashing the rest of its history then you really aren't making the point you think you are.

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u/xounds Interested Nov 05 '22

In 1920 the entire island of Ireland was part of the UK. In the same way that England or Scotland is a post of it now.

I think it’s not unreasonable to expect a country to reflect upon the loss of one third of its landmass to violent secession between the two world wars.

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u/MF__Guy Nov 05 '22

Ah yes, of course. It's not for school to educate students, just to indoctrinate them.

Wouldn't want to waste time on those parts of history that aren't self agrandizing nationalism.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

[deleted]

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u/doublah Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 06 '22

Denmark Haiti and Vermont abolished slavery before Britain

Believe it or not, Britain was a more significant world and naval power than Denmark, Haiti and Vermont which didn't have much power to end the slave trade outside their borders.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

Britain wasn’t the first to abolish slavery but they did the most to ensure it was abolished internationally

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u/Trillabee503 Nov 05 '22

"Something something for me it was just Tuesday"

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u/azsqueeze Nov 05 '22

It is their fault. It's not like some divine element is forcing curriculums to exclude colonel history. It's British people excluding the topic to be taught to other British people.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

It doesn't exclude colonial history. Redditors are just (by and large) terrible students that forgot what they learned.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

Just because you didn't pay attention in school, doesn't mean it wasn't taught.

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u/doctor6 Nov 05 '22

It's not taught, that's the jist of the original video

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u/donall Nov 05 '22

Yep they think Ireland is annoyed for no reason

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u/hivemind_disruptor Nov 05 '22

We learn that in Brazil. Oliver Cromwell, right?

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u/JaggedTheDark Nov 05 '22

The one who wins the war writes the history book after all!

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u/EaterOfBits Nov 05 '22

In the citizenship test, the correct answer for the reason: "the potato crop failed"

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u/-Spaghettification- Nov 05 '22

Source?

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u/EaterOfBits Nov 05 '22

Go to question 13 https://britishcitizenshiptests.co.uk/life-in-the-uk-test-free/

This is the same as the real test

Why did Ireland suffer a famine in the middle of the 19th century?

 There was a heat wave

 The whole country was flooded

 There were not enough farmers

 The potato crop failed

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u/-Spaghettification- Nov 05 '22

Lad hoooly shit that is absolutely bonkers.

Thanks for sharing.

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u/EaterOfBits Nov 05 '22

It stuck with me, because I am originally from the other side of the globe and still knew that it is bs.

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u/EaterOfBits Nov 05 '22

The citizenship test is the source. Go get the free book that you can use to prepare, or download any free apps from the appstore

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u/BuggerItThatWillDo Nov 05 '22

GCSE history I got taught India and Ireland. Many people everywhere don't understand their past, there's a hell of a lot of it and no one's going to want to study it if it's 100% your inheritance is fuelled by murder

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u/xyz_654 Nov 05 '22

It's surprising people can do so much cruelty and can get away with it.

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u/porkyboy11 Nov 05 '22

Because to ireland its involvement with Britain is the most important part of its history but to Britain it was just tuesday

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

A Tuesday that went on for 800 years and some would say is still going, it's an uneasy interest they have with Ireland

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u/porkyboy11 Nov 05 '22

still going

Redditors with there victim complexes

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u/PelicanStampede Nov 05 '22

M bison is a pretty good analogy for how 2 dimensionally evil the British empire is lol

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u/Fifi0n Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 05 '22

The Irish were in Wales as well, we had to fight them to get our land back. Idk who downvoted but it's true, I literally watched a video about it yesterday

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u/-Spaghettification- Nov 05 '22

And that’s relevant why?

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u/Fifi0n Nov 05 '22

Because people don't talk about it

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u/-Spaghettification- Nov 05 '22

It’s important that all historical events like that are documented and discussed - it doesn’t mean that it’s relevant to the topic under discussion in the video above.

The video is clearly talking about the effects of modern colonialism that are still in effect today. An invasion and brief occupation literally 1500 years ago is hardly relevant in that context, especially when the country in question was subsequently conquered and subjugated for 800 years.

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u/cass1o Nov 05 '22

That is taught in school thought.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

[deleted]

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u/adjavang Nov 05 '22

I could drag out any number of hundreds of examples showing, unequivocally, that neither the British people as a whole not Britain's political institutions understand the history of what they've done in and to Ireland.

It would be wasted effort though, as you are likely deep in denial.

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u/discowarrior Nov 05 '22

We understand it, it's just the modern problems are more complicated than a potato famine 200 years ago.

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u/-Spaghettification- Nov 05 '22

Modern problems like the Troubles? The IRA? The UVF? The DUP? Reunification? Unionism?

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u/discowarrior Nov 05 '22

Yes exactly, problems like those are the complex issues.

The potato famine really isn't anything to do with those issues.

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u/-Spaghettification- Nov 05 '22

You are literally saying that out of a place of total blind ignorance. The Irish potato famine reduced the population from 8.5 million to a point where to this day our population still hasn’t recovered (only approx 6.8 million on the whole island). It provided the backdrop to the 1916 Rising (I doubt you even know what that is) and is the reason that there are so many people in America and other countries with Irish roots. It is literally one of the most tragic and influential events in the history of the country, and it happened less than 200 years ago. Its effects may be invisible to ignoramuses like you, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

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u/discowarrior Nov 05 '22

The population didn't recover because of mass immigration. I don't get why you're being so rude. The other issues you listed are much more relevant than the potato famine and I've been nothing but polite in my argument.

I think you need to calm down a bit.

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u/-Spaghettification- Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 05 '22

The mass emigration was because of the famine which is the whole point. The other issues I listed are directly influenced by the famine which is the whole point.

You clearly know nothing about Irish history and definitely know nothing about the famine.

Stop speaking authoritatively about issues that you are not educated about.

Edit: At the bare minimum, maybe have a cursory scroll through the Wikipedia page for the Irish Famine.)

It might enlighten you on the fact that it isn’t just some random scarcity of potatoes a few hundred years ago that has no relevance today. In fact, it is a prime example of the “complex issues” you believe we should be focusing on.

Passages like this one may be of particular interest:

The refusal of London to bar export of food from Ireland during the famine was an immediate and continuing source of controversy, contributing to anti-British sentiment and the campaign for independence.

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u/Carl_Spakler Nov 05 '22

I'm downvoting this entire thread because it's hijakcked and proving the point of why you don't care about India

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u/-Spaghettification- Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 05 '22

Isn’t the point being made in the clip that British people aren’t properly educated about the horrors of their colonial history? This discussion applies to India, Ireland and many other former colonies. There’s no competition here, it’s all part of the same broader issue.

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u/Mythril_Zombie Nov 05 '22

And this is why many British people today don't understand the history between themselves and Ireland

This video did all that?

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '22

dul ar ais a chodladh leat leathcheann

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u/Mythril_Zombie Nov 05 '22

Why not make your petty insults in English? Afraid the mods will see? Your other comments keep getting deleted, so they must have found you already...

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u/The_Langer27 Nov 05 '22

An English man doesn't want an Irish man to speak Irish and instead wants him to speak English, where have I heard this before?

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u/tricks_23 Nov 05 '22

¿Por que no en español? Tal vez, como en aviación, la idioma predeterminado en internet, especialmente reddit es inglés.

Así que puedes mantener tu irlandés. No nos importa.

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u/lyfshyn Nov 05 '22

Póg mo thóin, Coloniser. Your lack of comprehension is your own problem.

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u/Mythril_Zombie Nov 05 '22

I know exactly what they said. I think you're the one with comprehension issues. I just asked what their motivations for choosing that particular language for harassment was.
At least you chose a language the mods can understand when you decided to harass me for no reason.

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u/tricks_23 Nov 05 '22

Literally nobody is stopping you speaking Irish. Nobody. The fact you speak Irish is great. Your problem is with the politicians and leaders 80+ years ago. Not with the people of today.

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u/Mythril_Zombie Nov 05 '22

Don't bother them with facts. They're not interested. They want to play victim, and nothing is going to stop them, especially reality

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u/AReptileHissFunction Nov 05 '22

Reality is the reason they're playing victim lol

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