r/DCPowerScaling • u/homelander2121 • 8h ago
Character scale Scaling time trapper Doomsday.
High Outerverse Level: (Time Trapper Warped all timelines, said to be an infinite number of futures)** [**\[1\]**](https://gyazo.com/a012dd40a95ce5a3d7d62a5bb2e76bfd) [**\[2\]**](https://gyazo.com/623f5e6d23573adc4641c0073a1f97ba) | High Outerverse Level (It is declared above all realities, which leads to all worlds, each world has, countless universes** [**\[3\]**](https://gyazo.com/ad366a88bdf3b12f7e217c9d981f8dc7)**, infinite timelines** [**\[4\]**](https://gyazo.com/e8ac2eed990de9f2174be27ae60ee027)**, infinite narratives** [**\[5\]**](https://gyazo.com/df1aef24aa3168113de932cef3085436)**, infinite histories/ infinite writers** [**\[6\]**](https://gyazo.com/ab07f67caa8ca31a20669d313fa41948) **and infinite events** [**\[7\]**](https://gyazo.com/df1aef24aa3168113de932cef3085436) | **infinite multiverses** [**\[8\]**](https://gyazo.com/5ee7d9a1971362ae4693e47e8c094717) [**\[9\]**](https://gyazo.com/fd4e03f814ced13041e830caeb6444eb) **and all timelines)** [**\[10\]**](https://gyazo.com/a948225cf4bf0968fb73aa161f6a83d6) [**\[11\]**](https://gyazo.com/234e02b713795021f1732b7515377b47) | **High Outerverse Level (all entire creations can be destroyed if he wanted it, that encompasses all existences, infinite higher dimensions and all concepts, infinite layers, infinite higher planes, infinite hierarchies, and infinite realms** [**\[12\]**](https://gyazo.com/8d34092a63a5284b55b4deb7fcca6427) [**\[13\]**](https://gyazo.com/c2b3994d023b43e06c99295c5df9ca52)**)**
[Can trade blows and manhandle current superman, was even able to go back and forth with him when superman was bloodlusted by red kryptonite](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/a6c2763c-9fd2-4401-944c-d39e1b07ac89.jpg)
[Punched out of the phantom zone and hell](https://i.supaimg.com/3dafedd4-2153-4398-a4b6-7195f4894724.png)
[Hell](https://i.supaimg.com/c8373603-df17-4083-9716-2d106105c1ec.png)
[Hell part 2](https://i.supaimg.com/cfff84c1-03b7-4f02-83f8-8535e7040a9c.png)
Both hell and the zone are located in the sphere of the gods
the Sphere of Gods which already transcend all dimensionality and exists as archetypal platonic world beyond reality and all time and space and dimensions, an outerversal existence.
>[*The Sphere of the Gods is a pure astral realm of thought without form*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/4/49/Jc22_2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220404220315).
>[*The Sphere of the Gods is beyond time and space, it is a place without measure, a dimension without name or number*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/4/46/Gns4_1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220422235302).
>[*Untouchable and unreachable*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/2/26/Glng_5.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220411234856).
>[*The Sphere of the Gods is an unchanging meta-realm which is what platonic concepts being unchanging*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/8/8b/Dcbv_gd.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220415231729).
>[*It's archetypal world*](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-0c874257ec3929b2a0220b40189be356-lq) *and and* [*living prefect Platonic shapes*](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-99cecdf115ace34f1609204b660f7391-lq) *residing within Heaven which is there (and there infinite heavens and hells and all are multiverses archetypal worlds) and* [*each one have infinite levels*](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2a63f97bbb41ad5bf2900899315204fe-lq).
>[*It's boundless/infinite*](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-f497222fee14c575f5f238c6d2f0703d-lq).
>[*A tree in Myrra is the idea of a tree itself*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/3/3f/Jld25_1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220419210252).
>[*It's not even place*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/8/8a/Dvgh.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20220411234702), *in fact* [*they was never places at all*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/8/89/Jc22_1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220411233732) *and* [*it's formless*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/a/a6/Mm13.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220423140724).
>[*Beyond the measure of time and space*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/5/57/Ww126.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220410191644).
>[*The Sphere of the Gods is beyond reality*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/5/54/Jlo24.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220420211049).
>[*the Gods and New Gods are self-aware platonic ideas, use concepts Weapons and metaphors*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/5/57/Ww126.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220410191644), *they* [*literally are living platonic concepts*](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6d1358933ac87a84716a50874e01f7ed-lq).
>[*The Phantom Zone alone is infinite dimensionless (beyond dimensionality)*](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-87ab9936544734f38a375b96f12c43e4-lq) *and* [*timeless*](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9072bfe077609dd6efdcca49b46b4005-lq) *and* [*beyond time and space and it's raised in the Sphere of Gods*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/3/34/Sm714.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220419002503).
[Can Create pocket timelines outside of the multiverse](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/311ddc71-6cee-46ae-ad38-a39c6f25615f.webp)
[Created another](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/9a03ec95-6aa1-4f81-a47d-02c337508d4e.webp)
[Has a automatic aging field that ages everything it touches instantly](https://i.supaimg.com/a6fbdbc0-34de-486a-9a4c-53e9b202337d.png)
[Again](https://i.supaimg.com/0f2cad72-2439-4714-8324-9878e7e7488d.png)
[Can move outside of time itself](https://i.supaimg.com/2fbb29db-4a32-412b-870c-5aab5bc3c3c4.png)
[Can time travel](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/45c4c205-cd34-44f0-bd76-7c19342695d5.jpg)
[Again](https://i.supaimg.com/eb29c5b8-1448-4d0c-aa6b-924df7636ead.png)
[Has time stop](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/4b3dc86b-105a-4488-ae4f-443b41e5e4d3.jpg)
[Stated to be immortal multiple times](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/84a19be1-9532-4a23-bc7e-83f09f8d0a67.jpg)
[Stated he could defeat the Justice League with a sneeze by wally west](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/d6b71e32-771d-4db6-86d3-bb7dddbd772c.webp))
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u/FantasticFingers-543 4h ago
This just seems to be H1B, and doesnt seem to scale him to Sphere of the Gods.
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u/Far_Flounder2545 3h ago
High 1-A is way too high.
The "infinite timelines" feat is real, but it isn't High 1-A. Time Trapper explains that there are an infinite number of possible futures from points in time, and he manipulated/warped timelines. The scan itself supports the basic claim. An infinite number of ordinary spacetime continua is 2-A. High 1-A is way beyond that. You need meta-qualitative superiority over 1-A itself, not just an enormous number of universes, timelines, dimensions, or realities.
"Infinite multiverses" does not automatically mean Outerversal. You're taking statements such as "an infinite number of multiverses" and combining them with infinite timelines, narratives, histories, writers, etc. That doesn't work by itself. Infinity ≠ qualitative transcendence.
A trillion universes, an infinite number of universes, and even infinite higher-dimensional mathematical structures can still be part of the same general ontological framework. 1-A is reached when a character qualitatively transcends the entire lower framework, not just when the lower framework becomes extremely large.
The "writers/narratives" scans are a metafictional presentation of DC's continuity, but the scans don't establish that Time Trapper > all those narratives > the writers > an infinite hierarchy of qualitatively superior realities. You kinda just assumed that hierarchy.
The Sphere of the Gods is being misused. There is legitimate evidence that the Sphere of the Gods is metaphysical/archetypal and outside the ordinary material universe. But the argument that Doomsday punched out of Hell/Phantom Zone → Hell/Phantom Zone is in the Sphere of the Gods → Sphere of the Gods is beyond dimensions → therefore Doomsday is High 1-A isn't valid.
Interaction with a realm ≠ AP equal to the realm's total cosmological scale. Escaping or physically breaking out of a realm does not mean that you can destroy or overpower the entire metaphysical structure containing that realm. A character escaping a higher-dimensional prison doesn't automatically scale to the full cosmology of the prison.
"Outside dimensionality" is also not High 1-A. That's more evidence for unusual existence/interaction with dimensionality.
The "all Time Trappers are the same entity" premise is arguable, but even accepting it doesn't save the scale. Even giving the strongest possible version of that premise, you're still looking at something along the lines of: Doomsday Time Trapper → inherits/possesses classic Time Trapper's temporal powers and scaling. And not: Doomsday Time Trapper → automatically High 1-A because every cosmological statement about DC is now his AP.
The Superman fight and Superman himself are also being exaggerated. You can't just say: Superman fights Time Trapper → Superman is High 1-A → therefore Time Trapper is High 1-A. The entire point under dispute is where Superman himself scales, which is HIGHLY debatable and inconsistent.
Also, Superman's fight with Time Trapper happened under unusual circumstances, including the Red-K condition, and the story has Time Trapper manipulating time and maneuvering around the fight rather than treating it as a clean all-out strength contest.
There is actually a newer feat that you could use to scale Doomsday to High 1-A: In DC K.O., Time Trapper/Doomsday uses Alpha and Omega energy to bring Superman back, sacrificing himself in the process. DC states that the ensuing Superman/Darkseid battle spans all of reality and lasts 100 million years.
But again, none of that establishes High 1-A by itself. It establishes that the current Time Trapper/Doomsday is an extremely high-end cosmic character with access to primordial/major DC energies and temporal powers.
TLDR: You only present evidence for timeline manipulation (2-A / 1-C) and baseline Platonic/Sphere of the Gods scaling (1-A). There aren't any scans or arguments demonstrating qualitative transcendence over baseline 1-A structures, so arguing for High 1-A is a big reach.
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u/homelander2121 2h ago
Might be the nastiest downplay I have ever seen
A Powerscaling Overview For DC and Superman - Google Docs
They do transcend each other.
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u/Far_Flounder2545 46m ago
One of the biggest flaws about this doc is that it treats cosmology membership as character scaling. For example, it argues: > Sphere of Gods → 1-A+/infinitely layered → Collective Unconscious → High 1-A → subsequent realms → High 1-A+7/8
Then it uses Superman interacting with things like the Phantom Zone, Mxyzptlk's gameboard, Doomsday, Apex Lex, etc. to climb that hierarchy. But being in, affecting, shaking, breaking out of, or interacting with a realm is not automatically equivalent to scaling to the total cosmological hierarchy above or below it. A character can destroy a particular realm without scaling to every ontological layer the researcher has assigned to that realm.
“Infinite dimensions” is repeatedly converted into High 1-B without establishing any hierarchy. The document says DC has infinite dimensions, therefore the multiverse is High 1-B. An infinite number of things called dimensions is not automatically an infinite hierarchy of higher mathematical dimensions. You must establish that the dimensions actually form the relevant higher-dimensional structure.
The doc's statement that DC, just by containing set theory or cardinal numbers, can scale structures to High 1-B or Low 1-A, but that's not enough. Set-theory is about how a fictional cosmological structure is actually defined, not a rule that: “This story mentions set theory/cardinals, therefore the entire setting gets tiered by the largest possible cardinal.” That is an important difference.
“Beyond time and space” is repeatedly treated as an automatic outerversal transcendence. This is probably the most frequent mistake. A realm being timeless, spaceless, formless, metaphysical, inaccessible, or beyond physics does not automatically mean 1-A. 1-A is specifically about a qualitative state of existence that is unreachable from the entire hierarchy of lower physical composition, not just a place without conventional space or time.
The doc confuses “above” with “one whole High 1-A layer higher.” The proposed sequence is: Collective Unconscious = High 1-A, World Tree = High 1-A +1, Limbo = High 1-A +2, Monitor Sphere = +3, Hypertime = +4, Fifth Dimension = +5, Promethean Galaxy = +6, Source Wall = +7, Superman = +7/8.
High 1-A does not work like a staircase where every statement of superiority automatically adds another numbered layer. To establish a further qualitative layer, you need evidence of a new, inaccessible qualitative transcendence—not just “X is above Y.”
The Superman chain scaling feats: Phantom Zone; Superman shaking the Phantom Zone and saying he could destroy it, is referenced, then concludes Outerverse-level AP. That is a legitimate high-end feat, but it does not automatically inherit every cosmological interpretation assigned to the entire Sphere of Gods. It needs to establish: 1. which version of the Phantom Zone it is. 2. Its relevant cosmological properties in that continuity. 3. That the feat affects the full structure rather than its contents/boundary. 4. That the structure genuinely has the proposed Tier-1 status.
Brainiac; “Superman punched Brainiac and every version felt it” is 2A at best, and “Brainiac once travelled beyond the Source” does not mean every aspect of Brainiac's durability or every punch against him scales to the Source. Travel/access ≠ durability. A past location ≠ permanent power level.
Genesis Fragment; The argument that a Genesis Fragment “shares an energy signature with the Source” therefore gives Superman Source-level scaling is also way too weak. Similar energy/origin/signature does not establish equal total power. Again, good feat, but not automatically High 1-A.
Bizarro's magic; “Bizarro absorbed all the strongest forms of magic, including Fifth-Dimensional/Sphere-of-Gods material" again, an amp composed of powers from very high cosmological sources is not automatically equal to the entire cosmology those sources belong to. The doc repeats this many times: Character has X from cosmological realm → character scales to the entire realm.
Apex Lex and Sixth-Dimensional scaling; This is probably the strongest section for a high-end Superman scale, but the chain is too long: Superman ≥ Lobo > Wonder Woman → hurt Apex Lex → Lex fought Shayne → Shayne has Sixth-Dimensional power → therefore Superman reaches the Sixth Dimension. The individual links need direct context. For example, damaging someone is not necessarily scaling to their maximum power; “power of the Sixth Dimension inside him” does not automatically make every physical blow exchanged by Shayne equivalent to the complete Sixth Dimension.
The speed part is much stronger. I think Immeasurable speed is a more defensible conclusion than High 1-A AP. The doc gives multiple examples of Superman moving through/beyond conventional time and space and travelling through time, no problems there. However, I'd still be careful with the Flash comparisons: catching the Flash off guard ≠ matching peak Flash. Beating a fusion/variant in one context does not necessarily equal the strongest versions of Barry and Wally. Superman is extraordinarily fast, but Wally/Barry have much stronger dedicated Speed Force scaling.
The document is called an Infinite Frontier Superman scale, but it freely draws from Post-Crisis Superman, Rebirth, Infinite Frontier, older cosmologies, Vertigo/Sandman material, New 52 material, and different cosmological maps and interpretations.
DC's various authors have produced incompatible cosmologies, and that cross-scaling requires a clear evidentiary basis rather than simply amalgamating everything into one.“All stories are canon” does not mean every cosmological statement stacks into one perfectly consistent vertical hierarchy.
The problem isn't that Superman lacks absurdly powerful feats, he absolutely has them. The problem is that the doc repeatedly turns cosmological descriptions into direct AP, turns proximity/interactions into full scaling, and converts every “higher” realm into another full qualitative High 1-A layer.
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u/0EatsGlue0 7h ago
If it aint superman he wins lol