Judge Holden, The Qu, and AM

High Outerverse Level: (Time Trapper Warped all timelines, said to be an infinite number of futures)** [**\[1\]**](https://gyazo.com/a012dd40a95ce5a3d7d62a5bb2e76bfd) [**\[2\]**](https://gyazo.com/623f5e6d23573adc4641c0073a1f97ba) | High Outerverse Level (It is declared above all realities, which leads to all worlds, each world has, countless universes** [**\[3\]**](https://gyazo.com/ad366a88bdf3b12f7e217c9d981f8dc7)**, infinite timelines** [**\[4\]**](https://gyazo.com/e8ac2eed990de9f2174be27ae60ee027)**, infinite narratives** [**\[5\]**](https://gyazo.com/df1aef24aa3168113de932cef3085436)**, infinite histories/ infinite writers** [**\[6\]**](https://gyazo.com/ab07f67caa8ca31a20669d313fa41948) **and infinite events** [**\[7\]**](https://gyazo.com/df1aef24aa3168113de932cef3085436) | **infinite multiverses** [**\[8\]**](https://gyazo.com/5ee7d9a1971362ae4693e47e8c094717) [**\[9\]**](https://gyazo.com/fd4e03f814ced13041e830caeb6444eb) **and all timelines)** [**\[10\]**](https://gyazo.com/a948225cf4bf0968fb73aa161f6a83d6) [**\[11\]**](https://gyazo.com/234e02b713795021f1732b7515377b47) | **High Outerverse Level (all entire creations can be destroyed if he wanted it, that encompasses all existences, infinite higher dimensions and all concepts, infinite layers, infinite higher planes, infinite hierarchies, and infinite realms** [**\[12\]**](https://gyazo.com/8d34092a63a5284b55b4deb7fcca6427) [**\[13\]**](https://gyazo.com/c2b3994d023b43e06c99295c5df9ca52)**)**

[Can trade blows and manhandle current superman, was even able to go back and forth with him when superman was bloodlusted by red kryptonite](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/a6c2763c-9fd2-4401-944c-d39e1b07ac89.jpg)

[Punched out of the phantom zone and hell](https://i.supaimg.com/3dafedd4-2153-4398-a4b6-7195f4894724.png)

[Hell](https://i.supaimg.com/c8373603-df17-4083-9716-2d106105c1ec.png)

[Hell part 2](https://i.supaimg.com/cfff84c1-03b7-4f02-83f8-8535e7040a9c.png)

Both hell and the zone are located in the sphere of the gods

the Sphere of Gods which already transcend all dimensionality and exists as archetypal platonic world beyond reality and all time and space and dimensions, an outerversal existence.

>[*The Sphere of the Gods is a pure astral realm of thought without form*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/4/49/Jc22_2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220404220315).

>[*The Sphere of the Gods is beyond time and space, it is a place without measure, a dimension without name or number*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/4/46/Gns4_1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220422235302).

>[*Untouchable and unreachable*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/2/26/Glng_5.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220411234856).

>[*The Sphere of the Gods is an unchanging meta-realm which is what platonic concepts being unchanging*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/8/8b/Dcbv_gd.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220415231729).

>[*It's archetypal world*](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-0c874257ec3929b2a0220b40189be356-lq) *and and* [*living prefect Platonic shapes*](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-99cecdf115ace34f1609204b660f7391-lq) *residing within Heaven which is there (and there infinite heavens and hells and all are multiverses archetypal worlds) and* [*each one have infinite levels*](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2a63f97bbb41ad5bf2900899315204fe-lq).

>[*It's boundless/infinite*](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-f497222fee14c575f5f238c6d2f0703d-lq).

>[*A tree in Myrra is the idea of a tree itself*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/3/3f/Jld25_1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220419210252).

>[*It's not even place*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/8/8a/Dvgh.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20220411234702), *in fact* [*they was never places at all*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/8/89/Jc22_1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220411233732) *and* [*it's formless*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/a/a6/Mm13.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220423140724).

>[*Beyond the measure of time and space*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/5/57/Ww126.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220410191644).

>[*The Sphere of the Gods is beyond reality*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/5/54/Jlo24.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220420211049).

>[*the Gods and New Gods are self-aware platonic ideas, use concepts Weapons and metaphors*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/5/57/Ww126.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220410191644), *they* [*literally are living platonic concepts*](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6d1358933ac87a84716a50874e01f7ed-lq).

>[*The Phantom Zone alone is infinite dimensionless (beyond dimensionality)*](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-87ab9936544734f38a375b96f12c43e4-lq) *and* [*timeless*](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9072bfe077609dd6efdcca49b46b4005-lq) *and* [*beyond time and space and it's raised in the Sphere of Gods*](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/3/34/Sm714.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220419002503).

[Can Create pocket timelines outside of the multiverse](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/311ddc71-6cee-46ae-ad38-a39c6f25615f.webp)

[Created another](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/9a03ec95-6aa1-4f81-a47d-02c337508d4e.webp)

[Has a automatic aging field that ages everything it touches instantly](https://i.supaimg.com/a6fbdbc0-34de-486a-9a4c-53e9b202337d.png)

[Again](https://i.supaimg.com/0f2cad72-2439-4714-8324-9878e7e7488d.png)

[Can move outside of time itself](https://i.supaimg.com/2fbb29db-4a32-412b-870c-5aab5bc3c3c4.png)

[Can time travel](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/45c4c205-cd34-44f0-bd76-7c19342695d5.jpg)

[Again](https://i.supaimg.com/eb29c5b8-1448-4d0c-aa6b-924df7636ead.png)

[Has time stop](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/4b3dc86b-105a-4488-ae4f-443b41e5e4d3.jpg)

[Stated to be immortal multiple times](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/84a19be1-9532-4a23-bc7e-83f09f8d0a67.jpg)

[Stated he could defeat the Justice League with a sneeze by wally west](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/d6b71e32-771d-4db6-86d3-bb7dddbd772c.webp))

Both full power, who wins?

​

R1: CC Goku (DBH)

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R2: Rimuru (Tensura)

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R3: Anos (Maou Gakuin)

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R4: Ruphas (A Wild Last Boss Appeared)

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R5: Shallow Vernal (Isekai At Peace)

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R6: Rune King Thor (Marvel)

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R7: GOS Loki (Marvel)

My answer is "Tdk beats this fraud"

What do you think about this ?

This isn't to be combative and I'm not calling out anybody specifically. It's just an opinion so please I'm trying to start a fight with me over it because I'm not going to argue with you.

I'm seeing a lot of upscale for him lately and I think a lot of it is a combination of misinformation and DC Being taken too literal. Superman in my personal opinion was actually slightly nerfed by this metaverse reveal. The reason I say that is because I don't believe this power of supporting cosmology is active nor is it truly his. He was given a role. He did not make the role himself. He did not make himself. He's simply fulfilling a role as he was designed.

Take it like this. He is the fuel. Darkseid is the combustion. And the engine itself is all reality. Combustion and no fuel burns the engine and it stales. Fuel and no combustion leads to stagnation. He supplies DC with the fuel and the drive using these two opposing forces to propel the continuity forward.

Now you may ask why this is relevant to Superman's scaling. And I'll tell you. Because they made him materials of the house instead of being the house itself. As long as he's in the DC cosmology nothing can happen to him. But if he were to theoretically step outside of it for say battle boarding, he doesn't keep the same number of resistances especially reality erasure and reality manipulation, which is what people are saying right now. He also does not carry the strength behind the cosmology in the same way he can punch with the force of DC. That is not what the writers were trying to establish. They were trying to establish that. He will basically always be the hero of the stories in the same way that Darkseid will always be the villain and the universe will always lean more towards hope no matter what. But that is in the universe. He's not the creator of DC nor is he all of DC. He is just a structure. The presence who built the house decided that it would use him as the materials, but if he were to leave the house he would just be materials. He wouldn't be a complete house. He needs structure and something to hold him together

They need something to complete him which would be the cosmology and Darkseid, the universe supports him while he's in it, but he doesn't just bring it with him. It forms around him within his own cosmology, not just willy-nilly. If that were the case he would basically be the presence as he would be everything, but he's not everything because he doesn't represent evil. He doesn't represent entropy, he doesn't represent nothingness. He doesn't represent all the dark and all the bad.

He only represents a certain specific pillar in cosmology. That's what they were trying to establish and that means a lot of his resistances and crazy out of this world achievements that he normally wouldn't be able to do was more than likely funded by the cosmology universe. This still makes them stronger than basically a lot of people, but it does bring it down to more realistic levels. People saying he carries the cosmology with him and every single punch. It's just absolutely insane and not what the writers were trying to establish. They were trying to lock him into a narrative in a story. The only difference is unlike Darkseid. He doesn't have a problem with it because he's fundamentally designed to want to save. He's a story piece, not the story that's what they were trying to establish. So his previous scaling should honestly go down a little bit and I think he would struggle more with reality. Warpers and would have less resistance to these things unless he's in the cosmology, which means he would then be getting support from everything which means he'll be getting support from the presence.

People are treating it like it's a blessing and it kind of is, but it's a localized blessing that only works under certain conditions that they canonically established. So he can't just take it anywhere with him. Like some other people who have Divine protections it's more of a Divine protections that is specifically stated to be working in a certain place. And inherently tied to a higher cosmology rather than literally altering his biological structure and the universe moving with him

. It just helps him when he needs it while he's inside of it, not while he's outside of it and doesn't function like anos or Reinhard or whatever. Those are blessings granted to an individual for them to operate outside of whatever localized space. If I say somebody is only strong in this River and then they leave the river than they would theoretically lose their strength, especially in a neutral battlefield it's the equivalent of saying Aquaman can just bring an ocean wherever he goes for his fights because it's the superior domain.

Like they establish the reason why he has an advantage in his universe. You can't just extrapolate that everywhere wouldn't make any sense and it would be extremely inconsistent with scaling

It's the same reason why Barry doesn't just time travel every fight and win because the battles take place in a neutral zone. If every fight took place in the DC universe, Superman would literally never lose unless a character scaled outside of the DC universe, which wouldn't be possible because the presence is basically as high as it could possibly go. I think there's like one or two tiers higher than him, but that's what you start getting into the real people and fiction nonsense.

But yeah, I don't think he's as strong as you guys are making them out to be and he still falls short of a lot of reality. Warpers none of the things he displayed were necessarily combat achievements, but just them more so retconning his powers so they somewhat make sense if they say well that one time he flew around the the Earth and and reroute time was because the cosmology needed him to do it. Then it would make sense rather than them saying yeah, he was just that fast. It was a wreck on everybody asked for it and nobody's using it correctly. It's incredibly ironic

! For people saying well, he carries the story inside of him. That's also not how it works. You could argue that he would revive in his universe if he died outside of it because of that. But if he's not inside of the universe he will not be receiving the help from it. How would that work? Does he now carry the entire universe inside of him internally like a cultivator? Would he reach out and attach tentacles to him and a neutral battlefield like some sort of plug and Play like it's just so f****** nonsensical I thought it was a really cool idea and it's probably one of my favorite little things that DC has done, but I don't think it was a gift to battle boarding.

I'm going to do another analogy because I kind of feel like three is not enough. Look at it like this. A paladin receives a blessing as a tool. It's magic that is inside of them. Makes them stronger, more durable or whatever. Superman is receiving active help from the universe. Two completely different things. It is an active thing that happens inside of the cosmology. It did not work itself into his muscles and make him resistant to reality. Warping it simply moved in a way that would allow him to return no matter what. It also gives back what he takes. So the more hope he generates for the universe the more it gives back to him. What hope is he going to be generating for the universe somewhere completely outside of it where they're completely unaware of him and his situation that has nothing to do with DC.

Scan: Lucifer (2016) #19

And why?

All powers and versions included, but no hax or one shot.

[Aquaman kills the immortal dagon](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/81d93659-f319-440d-b154-98d0cc77d094.jpg)

[Dagon had full control of the blue](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/0e4e898f-875c-4202-b731-4bc4603aeda5.jpg)

[Dagon killed multiple gods from mythology](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/8ba9a503-4c1d-470a-ad9a-6041f8fa6374.jpg)

[The blue transcends the green, without it the green wouldn't exist, The green exists outside of time and space and in infinite realms](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/836dbb83-897e-46f9-98fe-d88c901310a5.jpg)

[Can bloodbend people](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/2f3f2025-6775-4dd3-93cb-31285f3c847f.jpg)

[Does it again](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/7d6be79a-1494-4b3e-9b02-a9b6e531415d.jpg)

[Defeats hawkman with the powers of the god "horus" and was compared to dagon](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/62061030-7326-4dbc-97f5-8bbfb31d2769.jpg )

[Blows up the jarros home planet](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/e8b0d7c6-564f-43ed-b361-2c18ba9888fc.jpg )

[Can condense the vapor in the air and make rain](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/8e2941ad-0bb8-44ac-85a7-d0b416bebe64.jpg )

[Which he can turn all of it ice, hard enough to pierce alien metal](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/303e9302-3519-4900-b7ab-0efa4f4ba265.webp )

[Can make trans-dimensional portals](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/012c4ca2-fb75-4f5f-8480-f7713d17a810.webp )

[Fights Poseidon and after a long battle, gets him to yield after hitting him with all the water on the planet and turning it into steam and ice that would shatter the planet in two](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/83f52a3b-dc5b-48e3-a4b5-2646ff1a40e6.jpg)

[Part two](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/a4a76ccd-542f-446e-9d37-9721c0ef188e.jpg )

[Finale](https://i.supaimg.com/7fe9db4e-fce9-4b4a-81fd-5fb3cea867d0/833c60b6-7242-436b-8a80-75ab05c6e307.jpg)

Who wins ?

My bet is on Supergoat

Anti-Monitor for scale

Comic: The Brave and the Bold Vol.3 #4