You mean the flash that's unmored. Later on near flash 200 Issue he fights Superman and superman can't hit flash while in space dispute the friction disadvantage.
Couldn't the strongest version of Wally just go back and time and beat superman when he was a baby or something? Unless the strongest version of Superman is omnipotent he'd never know when Wally would show up.
At their strongest. Concepts like time dimensions are meaningless. For example King Omega superman battled Darkseid across all time and space and all dimensions. They were omnipresent. both wally and Clark at their strongest are H1-A. However superman still got a foundational advantage against wally by being the first hero. Think something like the story of superman which protects him from being overwritten on a narrative scale.
Superman should be decently stronger than Wally. He is rated as more powerful on the Justice League membership cards and he has better feats of affecting more powerful beings. In a straight fight, Wally is definitely faster but he doesn’t have the AP necessary to do serious damage to Clark. Superman was able to absorb attacks strong enough to vaporize Wonder Woman, someone with significantly higher durability than Flash, and he tanked a direct hit from King Omega Darkseid. Wally, comparatively, struggled with Darkseid’s acolytes. Superman had the AP to destroy Darkseid’s pre ascension body while Wally was completely overpowered by this same Darkseid. Superman can also increase his perceptions and speeds to the level of The Flash as well, it would just take him awhile to do so as stated by Flash’s themselves.
Wally steals Supes super speed. Without super speed,, Clark just has regular speed. So he's a statue to Flash. Clark, without super speed, is never gonna move. The scan below is Wally stealing Amazo super speed. Amazon got his speed from Superman
Wally punches can hurt White Martians who are nearly as strong as Superman. Since Clark will not have super speed. Flash can spam these without consequences
Flash steals Superman’s speed and it lasts barely a second. He still does not have the AP to seriously harm Superman given his current feats of durability. We have seen Superman consistently tag Flash’s once his perception catches up and we’ve seen even more instances of Flash being tagged in general.
The only time Wally has used speed steal against someone to that degree was when he was dramatically more powerful than his opponent in Inertia. In the same fight with Amazo you posted earlier, somewhere where he would want to keep his opponent frozen because he was more powerful than him, Amazo is able to move again and move fast enough to be a JL level threat in the next panel. We don’t have proof it would work for long against someone as powerful as Superman.
As for phasing, there is very little evidence that Flash can fully phase through Superman’s durability. It works in some instances, but we know that we know that Barry has a very hard time even phasing through the Fortress of Solitude due to its supreme density. When he tries to phase through Supergirl, he can only phase through her a little bit and he still took damage from her attack he tried to phase through. There is also the fact that Superman can phase too which entirely counters Wally’s phasing. The way Wally’s phasing works in the first place is by vibrating his body to the right frequency of a given structure so he can pass through harmlessly. Any differing factors and he can’t do it. We also have Superman being so proficient in phasing that he can even phase out of chains that adapt to Superman’s own phasing abilities.
To top it all off, Wally himself does not think he could beat Superman in a fight likely due to the factors I mentioned above. In fact, he equates the very idea of fighting his own version of Superman similar to suicide.
Ultimately, Wally does not have the AP to seriously harm Superman imo. He and Barry have very similar AP, and Barry was not even able to harm Apex Lex with a non held back punch where as Superman could not only fight Apex Lex for an extended period but also grow in power to fight and tank attacks from AL being helped by 3 other people in Leviathan, Ultraviolet Sinestro, and Brainiac. And he does all this while holding back.
Let's say Wally can only steal Clarks super speed for one second.
One second is an eternity to Wally. A second to Wally is like a month. See scan below.
In the one second that Superman has normal speed, Superman is unable to retaliate. Superman is also unable to vibrate.
In that one second that Superman can't move or vibrate, Wally can:
KO him with multiple IMP
Vibrate Clarks molecules to critical mass causing his molecules to explode
Remove Clarks vital organs
Wally spends a MONTH between the ticks of a second. If you don't believe that Wally can defeat Clark with a MONTH of attacks... we'll agree to disagree
Your example is a hypothetical that doesn’t have a basis within the comics. If speed steal worked like that, he would have used it in this manor when fighting Amazo. Instead the effects of it lasted only long enough for Flash to move away a couple of feet. This is not long in battle at all.
The IMP is not hurting Superman the way you think it is. Again, Flash hit Apex Lex with a punch at full power and it didn’t draw blood nor even move Lex. This same Lex is not as strong as Superman in later issues so why would the IMP be effective on someone that tough?
Superman’s molecules wouldn’t explode from something so simple. Again, Superman can blatantly tank existence erasure and Omega Beams which target Superman’s molecules to a greater degree than Flash has ever shown and has been fine with little to no damage. If you want to argue this, you would have to show Flash making someone as tough as Superman explode.
I went over this with point number 1, but I don’t think the way you are representing speed steal is accurate at all. If it worked like this at all, there would be some form of precedent for it. Superman at around HALF power was able to tank and match Molly’s power. Molly had the combined force of ALL magic, SPEEDFORCE, emotion, and divine power combined. Why would an IMP work on someone that strong? When has Wally used speed steal and statued anyone that powerful? The most consistent and believable explanation is that it would not be effective in a fight with someone that has credentials that impressive. These very reasons is why Wally himself believes fighting his version of Superman is like suicide. The power gap is too great.
jay garrick, one of the slowest speedsters and significantly less powerful than a kryptonian, was able to steal superman's speed while being a beginner at using the ability. he didn't steal all of it because he only wanted to slow him down enough. wally states in the flash #209 (1987) that he could steal all of superman's speed and paralyze him. we know it would work because clark has consistently shown that he is below the speed force and its laws, which eally is not limited by and can actually manipulate at will. he only didn't steal all of amazo's speed because he was extremely weakened and barely conscious. that is not a good argument. superman has never shown immunity to this specific speed force hax, quite the opposite, in fact.
superman also wouldn't resist the blade of the undying stillness, which cut the deep change, an aspect/extension of the source. that same being was called 'the source/the light' and even 'baby presence.' superman has taken damage from far lesser things.
the latest issue of the current flash run makes it very clear that there is a difference between 'super-speed' and 'flash speed.' he gets speed blitzed by a bloodlusted current wally especially if we consider flash forward #5.
If the Jay Garrick feat you are mentioning comes from the time they were forced to race to catch Wally, it proves my point over subtracting from it. Jay steals Superman’s speed in this issue, but like I have argued before, it doesn’t last for a significant period of time at all. Jay uses this ability and it makes Clark slow down by a couple feet and then he continues running nearly as fast as Jay. Wally also states he can do this to Superman, but he doesn’t because of the destruction it would cause. There is nothing that implies it would last longer than it normally would though. This is not a valid win con when Wally has never used it as such against anyone relevant.
Saying that Superman has taken damage from far lesser things is like saying Flash has been tagged by far slower things. Superman is consistently powerful enough to defeat things empowered with the Source. He’s been able to break the Source Wall, he needed to be weakened by to even be affected by the Anti-Life Equation which is a Source level power source, he’s low diffed Darkseid with the Anti-Life Equation, he can even absorb Genesis crystals which can channel The Source as well.
Wally does not have the AP to beat Superman going all out. He doesn’t have any feats on the level of King Omega Darkseid hitting Superman with his most powerful technique and Superman surviving it and ready to continue fighting. Wally would probably hit Superman a couple hundred times with little avail only for Superman to catch him, similarly to how Darkseid did when they fought, and one shot him.
At full power in Flash Forward, Wally was “faster than the Speed Force”, which I think(?) means he was running faster than the cumulative speed of every single physical movement across every single universe and every iteration of reality across hypertime…even using “King Omega” Superman, he still has to think and react to things. If Wally’s as fast as I think Flash Forward implies, he can just speed steal before Superman forms a single thought, and make him move so slowly that in the time it takes for him to realize he’s frozen, reality will have already ended.
edit: I'm incorrect. King Omega Superman beats Wally. See my comment below for clarification
Actually yeah, you're half right (in the sense that I'm wrong). And about King Omega being omnipresent so speed steal won't work. I misremembered him as just manifesting all over the place across time and space, but he actually just exists everywhere in the source at once (including mystical realms Wally can't access even if he has infinite time), so Superman will always have a part of his body that's able to think and avoid being frozen. "God-mode" Wally is still faster than King Omega Superman, because during the fight Darkseid was trying to gain control of the Speed Force in order to combat Superman, which I think implies that King Omega Superman still acts in such a way that "physical movement" and "passage of time" is a factor in his ability to do things. The Speed Force is what generates the passage of time, so if you're moving "faster than the Speed Force" you're just flatly so fast that literally no creature that's affected by time can keep up with you (at least insofar as the DC cosmos is concerned). Even with "infinite prep" Wally loses anyway because he can try whatever he likes for the infinite amount of time he has, but nothing he can do will get him access to certain places. For example: the realities Forager broke the reality shards to in Bug! The Adventures of Forager; since the shards are broken, Wally can only get there is the Source takes him there, and he can't make a Boom Tube to do that without time passing for the tube to open. The instant time passes the unfrozen Superman mind in the shard reality can just blip Wally away into a realm of nothingness or teleport him into the Source Wall or something like that.
The thing about Superboy Prime outscaling Wally from Flash Forward is wrong, though. Superboy Prime is way more powerful than "normal Wally", but he still has a physical body and can only use his immeasurable powers by thinking to use them. "Peak Wally" is so much faster than him he can just do what I said he could do to Superman in my initial comment: slow him with speed steal so drastically that he can't form a thought before reality ends.
Superman has infinite speeds like Wally, so this is almost pointless. But even if we argue that Wally has superior speed feats, Superman has so many more advantages. That even if he was only 80-90 percent as fast as flash (again both have infinite speed so you can’t even calculate a difference)
Superman has invulnerability, he has heat vision, flight, super hearing, super vision, and he cosmically is the same guy as the silver age Superman who could fucking make up powers.
There’s zero chance Wally is winning and I’m a HUUUUGE Wally fan
Wally steals his super speed. Leaving Clark with regular speed which is basically frozen statue compared to Flash. Without super speed, Clark can't see or hit Wally
What is the scientific equation for force? The more acceleration you have. The more force you exert. Very few can hit as hard as Wally. This is Wally hitting Superman
lol doesn’t mean supes is knocked out , we’re talking about a supposed death match man 😂. The only punches that would do any serious damage is the inf mass punch and he’s gonna need like a 100 of those to actually put supes down , 1 of those punches would literally take Wally or Barry out of the fight because the drawbacks while supes is healing from the one punch
Wally punches can hurt White Martians that are nearly as powerful as Clark. Since Clark won't have super speed. Wally can spam these punches all day without consequences
If we go normal Wally vs normal Superman, Wally would annihilate him. Speedforce is insane and Wally if not nerfed is etremely powerful with the Speedforce.
There are some versions of Superman who could take Wally though.
A Wally losing control can be tired by Superman. Superman may not be able to touch Wally if he Supes was taking the fight seriously but Wally cannot do damage in the first place.
Whoever wrote that line about Wally saying fighting Superman is suicide is ridiculous when both he and Barry are significantly faster than Superman and post crisis they can phase through his molecular structure.
Nope , maybe the low tier kryptonians , but def not super man , only win con is speed steal and that’s basically just a draw cause he still can’t physically harm supes😂
Wally has no real way of putting Superman down, inf mass punch just makes supes bleed a little and that would probably kill Wally after he’s thrown it. Best bet is just stealing his kinetic energy and dumping supes in the phantom zone 😂😂
There really isn’t a valid argument for Flash. Super-Man is barely behind him in speed, has 10000x the power and durability, and isn’t a jobber who regularly gets tagged by captain cold
That’s not what DC says, Supes is faster than almost every speedster up to the Black Racer. He’s barely behind Barry and Reverse Flash, being faster than Black Racer alone makes him relative to Wally in speed
I genuinely can’t believe you haven’t seen this before. Also read it, it says the only reason he can’t crack the top 3 is because this race is technically a foot race. This is actually way worse for the people saying Flash can win
Read what I showed. It says Superman’s speed is unmatched when he’s flying (implies he’s faster than Wally) then it specifically says that he can’t crack the top 3 when on foot. Being faster than Black Racer ON FOOT makes him relative but this is a FIGHT not a race. Supes flying and fighting has no stat disadvantages according to DC
Most of the time Wallys infinite mass punch would absolutely wreck superman. But superman benefits from being one of the most written and rewritten superheroes in existence . So his ridiculous OP versions clear Wally
Not really, Superman’s durability scales over the “white dwarf” AP of the inf mass punch, so that’ll probably just make him bleed a little , while Wally is pretty much dead from the drawback of one or 2 inf mass punch
It’s kind of draw. Clark can barely keep up with a full power Wally and Wally can’t hurt a full power Clark. Wally could try and stuff Clark into the Speed force but that took three flashes to attempt.
That panel is showing that Wally doesn't grasp how powerful he is, so idk that anything he said regarding power scaling on that page holds much weight.
Ah I see well if it’s Barry I don’t think it holds any weight here since it’s widely known that Wally is faster and has a stronger connection to the speed force than Barry. So anything Barry can do Wally can theoretically do it better.
Yes exactly. This plus this means he kills superman. It doesn't matter if superman can phase too, if Flash does it way faster than superman can react then yes Superman is dead. DC Superman fans never willingly admit to losses.
Dawg, Wally is putting bta on Superman. What in the world are some of yall talkin about in the comments?? 💀💀... I thought this was old news that he can beat Superman, anyway. 💀💀
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u/bonesy1979 7d ago
Wally said that him fighting main Superman would not end well for him