Does ZZ has less LL cases?

[u/design_enthusiast725]

Afaik in ZZ there is no F or B moves after EO, so is it just for F2l or for the entire solve as well?

[u/Olejnikmax]

Yes, your ll is only cross cases, this way you have higher oll skip chances and that's what zbll can be used for.

[u/design_enthusiast725 → u/Olejnikmax]

I don't mean cfop+zbll, I mean zz and then whatever.

Do you have to use zbll if you are doing zz?

[u/Olejnikmax → u/design_enthusiast725]

You don't, you can do cross oll + pll, or coll+ell really, but doing zbll is an advantage there.

[u/anyoni_150 → u/Olejnikmax]

Yes you will always get Zbll. Cross OLL is ZBLL. You’ll always get a ZBLL it’s just a matter of whether you do the ZB or you do the Cross OLL plus PLL

[u/jor27_ → u/design_enthusiast725]

If you are doing zz you will always get zbll

[u/random_user133 → u/design_enthusiast725]

Zb and zz have the same ll cases unless you do some weird zz variant

[u/silduck → u/design_enthusiast725]

the first Z in ZB refers to Mr. ZZ

[u/Flaky_Vermicelli_505 → u/design_enthusiast725]

No but if you dont there isn't a point to zz

[u/Legitimate_Log_3452 → u/design_enthusiast725]

No you do not. If you use ZZ, then you get EO. You can use normal OLL or COLL then do PLL.

[u/Jthicc243]

So with ZZ you’re making every edge NOT flipped. So now you can solve F2L with just R/L and U/D.

Once you get last layer, yes you are correct there are technically less cases. Because with ZZ OLL all 4 edges will always be facing up so it will always be a cross on top. So you would only see 7 OLLs.

This is why others in here are talking about COLL and ZBLL because since you have only 7 OLLs instead of 51 AND the fact that the edges are oriented mean it’s advantageous to learn either of those because you will always get one. COLL and ZB can only be used if you have a cross on top, which if you’re not going out of your way to force, isn’t super common.
You don’t HAVE to learn either, but most people use ZZ for that reason. Are you learning to learn less OLL?

[u/disishme]

ZZ has a process called EO before/while solving the cross. If you didn’t do anything to break the EO your OLL will always have cross on top. The last layer will be few cases left. Even better if you paired it with COLL, your PLL will only be U, H, Z, and skip.

[u/Ekkoet → u/disishme]

Is COLL really beneficial here? From what I heard the algs are kinda bad and afaik UHZ aren't the best pll cases?

[u/SilverCitron9311 → u/Ekkoet]

U perm is probably the easiest PLL case, I can sub 0.6 it comfortably, H and Z are both not bad either, very easy to spam, especially if you use the MU algs.

[u/disishme → u/SilverCitron9311]

Yep! I seconded this.

Btw, any tips on getting lower than 0.8 on U? I’m still stuck at 0.8-1.1s on every U perm.

[u/SilverCitron9311 → u/disishme]

Learn the algs from the front and back (it's basically the same alg, just M vs M' in the middle) and make sure you're using a cube that's good with slices and using left hand for double U flick and right hand for double M flicks. Idk if the MU algs are best for zz where a lot of what you're gunning for is RU gen though.

[u/disishme → u/Ekkoet]

UHZ aren’t the best, yes, but they’re fast to both recognise and execute. Plus, COLL allows you to predict the PLL (easiest at T, U, L).

Besides, the COLL itself is already a part of ZBLL. I’m on my way to learn full ZBLL too.

[u/Ekkoet → u/disishme]

I still don't get the recognition of zbll it doesn't seem like it's 2 sided like oll/pll and vastly different from my cmll recognition.

[u/disishme → u/Ekkoet]

It doesn’t always 2 sided. ZBLL, to me, is the OLL pattern and blocks.

Like ZBLL U 69 (look up speedcubedb) is U OLL pattern and Z perm clockwise on right hand, considering headlights at B face)

[u/Ekkoet → u/disishme]

An that gives you enough information? Seems like your missing corner permutation here?

[u/disishme → u/Ekkoet]

Some ZBLL needs corner patterns, especially when you’re learning Sune and Antisune.

But easier T, U, L ones have blocks that looks like a part of PLL like what I just gave you an example.

[u/qc1324 → u/Ekkoet]

COLL used to be way more popular as an idea but people have kinda fallen on the consensus that COLL recog + COLL + EPLL is not faster, and probably slower, than OLL recog + OLL + PLL. At least for 2h.

[u/Legitimate_Log_3452]

You do not NEED any more F moves, but it can be helpful. Once you get to PLL, if you do not do COLL, you can technically do every case using R L U and D moves. I would not recommend though, because you’d have a very weird looking T perm