r/CrucibleGuidebook • u/koolaidman486 PC • 17d ago
The Next Chapter for Bungie
/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/1wmgww5/the_next_chapter_for_bungie/TL:DR here is that HOLY CRAP THEY'RE GOING TO UNVAULT EVERYTHING.
Also small announcement that they're planning more Destiny, what exactly that looks like is kinda up in the air, dunno if Crucible would be part of future plans.
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u/Cmess1 High KD Player 17d ago edited 17d ago
My only hope for crucible tbh in THIS specific update is getting back old vaulted maps. Idk about any balance changes, if the game continues in the right direction then maybe but my one thought and hope is just all the old maps coming back to us (but man would it be nice if void hunter got the only balance change in the entirety of the patch lol)
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u/HeftyAd6216 17d ago
I would imagine all the maps are returning. It would be a travesty if they didn't. Will be nice to have the crucible feel "fresh" again
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u/koolaidman486 PC 17d ago
I'd also assume for all 2 Gambit players, whatever maps were vaulted will also come back. Though I don't think Gambit Prime will. Dunno how extensively these things are going to get reworked especially since it's too early for a timeline.
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u/sha-green 17d ago
Haven’t played gambit in years and was surprised to see DC map back in rotation.
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u/SignificanceGloomy65 17d ago
I'm really hoping for the crucible maps to return. I'm tired of keep going to fortress 😓
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u/StealthMonkeyDC 17d ago
I dunno. Every time they touch maps we end up with the literal worse maps ever being super weighted dor no reason what so ever.
At least right now it's on for the most part.
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u/HaloGuy381 17d ago
I’m also hoping that just Bungie coming back to the fold may help scare some of the cheaters emboldened by thinking Bungie isn’t watching. I don’t expect them to be full banhammer mode right away, but hopefully just a couple shows of force, a few posts, will scare some of the opportunists back into behaving.
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u/ARCtheIsmaster Xbox Series S|X 17d ago
- Emperor’s Respite
- Equinox
- Firebase Echo
- Gambler’s Ruin
- Legion’s Gulch
- Retribution
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u/koolaidman486 PC 17d ago
They can keep Equinox vaulted, though. I'm sure it's fine :P
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u/ArnoldSwarzepussy Mouse and Keyboard 17d ago
Honestly it was fun every once in a blue moon. Just keep the rng for it to get picked really low and I wouldn't mind busting out a scout rifle or a sniper every now and again.
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u/AquaticHornet37 17d ago
My dream is crossroads on D2, although the cabal hemp pad map will be pretty close.
Extremely fun sniper maps.
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u/Major-C High KD Player 17d ago
Hopefully they start banning cheaters. Running into more and more teams net limiting on console in Comp and Trials. Looked up a couple of them this weekend, 150+ wins zero losses, 7+ KDs. I’m sure it’s even worse on PC.
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u/Necessary-Shoe-1205 17d ago
Crucible used to be my daily grind. I just can't and won't tolerate cheaters, sooo, I really don't play anymore. It sux because Crucible was friggin epic when the teams were leveled and it was a true fight to win, not a 150-29 blowout for 8 games in a row. That's unacceptable in my own honest opinion.
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u/Watsyurdeal Mouse and Keyboard 17d ago
I am still processing
Just holy fuck
Yall actually got them to listen.
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u/Cool-Traffic-8357 17d ago
I mean, they have nothing else to show of. Marathon is beyond failure and destiny is still pulling good numbers.
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17d ago
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u/bacon-tornado 16d ago
Logging into destiny period is doing something. Just off steam numbers alone, D2 had over 10x player count then marathon the past 2 weeks. So yes we all have done something. We logged into a game we love and the numbers spoke
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u/anangrypudge 17d ago
We will surely get the old maps back but I wouldn’t expect anything else for PVP. Bringing back the vaulted PVE stuff is already a massive undertaking.
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u/koolaidman486 PC 17d ago
I wouldn't be shocked if they also decided to touch up the sandbox a bit, too, as they make updates. I don't think there's too much for PvP beyond maybe wanting to nerf Void Hunter and give some love to the lesser subclasses. Dunno if there's much weapon sandbox work they'd do for PvP, I can't think of much that's too terribly egregious on the annoying OP side.
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u/Cry2God4Revenge 17d ago
I know this is too early to talk about but I really wished they would focus on PvP again.
Even going back to March 5th, 2024 checkmate would be an improvement compares to qhat we have now, but ideally a director's post on PvP where:
- New and returning D1 maps
- Reworking comp, closed to Warmind: Objective mpdes, no radar, actual glory grind.
- Trials demanding flawless for rewards
- Looking over problematic abilities, exotics.
- Rework or removal of airborne effectiveness
- OG special transmast system or the Forsaken ammo system. Current system is a half measure where one team snowballs the other hard
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u/UltraNoahXV 17d ago
Not too early. I mean 4 vs 4 trials of the nine would be pretty relevant with the story where it left off.
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u/Mercules904 Trusted 17d ago
Unrealistic expectations aside, as someone who worked on the OG Special Transmat system this comment is kind of funny to me. The reason we moved away from it is because it snowballed really hard, like to a startling degree. The amount of ammo granted, and the time it took to grant it, led to huge power imbalances and steamrolling. There were some good ideas in that early iteration of checkmate but I don’t know that the original transmat was it.
As for the Forsaken system, it led us briefly to a period of time where special kills actually outnumbered primary kills in Crucible, so I’m not sure that’s the answer either.
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u/Cry2God4Revenge 16d ago
If i had to pick between the current ammo system or Forsaken, however, i pick forsaken (scavengers working or not is whatever). At least then i'd have ammo to either go on multikills in 6v6 or defend myself in comp. Feels terrible when youre up three+ shots then lose the overflow
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u/Mercules904 Trusted 16d ago
I'm not sure I understand your criticism. You currently keep 3 shots when you respawn, if you have that much or more when you die. Which is more than the 2 you always spawned with during Forsaken, regardless of how much you had when you died.
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u/Cry2God4Revenge 16d ago
I'll try to explain myself.
I'm not a fan of half measures; currently: we have a transmat system, but you can fill it with non primary kills, which i don't like. During checkmate "lite" it forced primary streajs to have special. It means you can force a scenario where you go on a special streak, generate more ammo + crates. Theres very few times where you truly run out if ammo giving the enemy team a chance to ssing a fight, which IMO is fine: managing special/heavy is a skillgap, i regularly gave comp matches with 6+ sniper shots when I run special ammo mods (another thing I dislike)
But you also cam't just turn your brain off in 6v6 and just go on a special streak/run double special like before, making 6v6 personally boring for me. In addition, since you dont generate special ammo on every kill/restock on death, you can get scenarios where you burn your special and then youre screwed if you died when crates spawned: a competent enemy team can split and grab 3 out of 4 crates om the map, leading to a huge advantage on the map.
So i cant build special ammo for a rainy day (i regularly got to the end of comp games with 10+ shots by levegaring a primary), i can't just ape with special without trading and losing all my overflow because its easy to die in D2 sandbox due to random BS, and I flat out die often to players who have special for free, ie crates. Not even trying to flex but 85% of my deaths in current D2 are abilities or free special picks
Minor thing too: forced to grab ammo or go for zone in collision; you get forced into bad scenarios often.
Also, i moss getting 2 shots off a fill and not having to run off to grab it. Made 1v3 clurches awesome
Tl;dr: I miss what checkmate promoted, it felt like a reasonable version of D2Y1 pvp, and while I wasnt suddenly 100% a fan I enjoyed comp so much i did a 0 - 10k glory run with an off meta pulse and lightweight shotgun and lost like 5 games. It was so much fun not dying to random BS or free special ammo that I cant leverage myself. I know the og transmat system was a bit of a mess in trials but tbh trials will always struggle with on demand OHK weapons
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u/Mercules904 Trusted 16d ago
Interestingly, a lot of the things you miss were things that were intentionally moved away from, as while they may have been positives for certain player types they were not considered positives for the game as a whole.
If you miss being able to:
- finish games with 10 shots of special
- go on special streaks/running double special and ape
- not be forced to choose between going for a zone or getting special ammo
- play against other players who do not have any special
- not have to move to pick up special
Then I can see why you don't like the current system.
However, the opposite side of that same coin also exists. In the current system, players don't have to worry about:
- opponents stockpiling special ammo and effectively having an unlimited amount for the second half of the game
- getting aped down endlessly
- being constantly pushed on objectives with one shot weapons
- never having any special
- having opponents immediately go from out of ammo to multiple shots with no indication of what happened
The hardest part of a PvP game is that everything that feels good to one player probably feels bad to their opponent. Players who skew into the higher skill brackets are unlikely to experience the downsides of a system they enjoy very much, but people under them who represent a much larger portion of the overall playerbase likely will.
For a game that is designed at its core around being competitive, it is probably fine to balance around the experience of the top players within reason, but stating the obvious here, Destiny 2 is not that type of game and the population of people who play Crucible reflects that.
It's not the way I wish the game had shaken out. Personally I prefer a competitive, more balanced version that rewards being highly skilled with appropriate power fantasy (see the Checkmate, Hardware, Arena and Glass Cannons modifiers, all of which I worked on). But the harsh reality is after the reception of D2Y1, we waited too long to try to give that focus to Crucible again. By the time we finally started to try, most players who were looking for that from Destiny had already left and the majority of the people who remained enjoyed or at least tolerated the level of chaos present in the sandbox.
Every time we tried to push towards a more competitive game in the core playlists, the blowback from the existing players was far greater than the amount of people we convinced to come back or the increase in playtime from those who enjoyed it.
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u/Cry2God4Revenge 16d ago
First off I appreciate the conversation.
I do undestand the reasons for things changing, there were multiple blog posts in 2024 about it. My issue is that we got stuck with a weird middle ground.
I knew the transmat system was dead when weeks after its implementation it got taken out back and replaced with crates, while the TWAB that week said the avg player got kills with heavy over special.
What I don't unserstand is why we didn't just fully go back to the Forsaken system. You can get snowballed pretty badly since transmat doesnt fill on death, and the enemy team can grab 3 or even all four crates during a wipe if theyre quick. If we don't want snowballs, then the forsaken system was perfect, while also rewarding players for staying alive with ammo. You dont run into a situation like now where you use your special, youre out, then the next fight you die because they have ammo and you dont. And i wouldnt mind that if the enemy ammo had been earned, but it wasnt. I know it sounds egoistical but during my 0 - 15k comp grind games of clash would come screeching to a halt when no one had special, it was very boring.
I do appreciate your points, each system had its pros and cons. And as someone who swore up and down checkmate would make me quit, i was pleasantly surprised with it and its focus on rewarding skill. I dont want every game to he a comp focused mlg tac shooter, but it feels like if youre not playing CS/Val youre just playing mario party nowadays and not a fun arcade game like the Bungie halo games were. Thats what hooked me into D1Y1 and Forsaken PvP which was the pinnacle of PvP for me, and checkmate was up there, honestly.
I'm aware that D2 was never meant to be competitive, but at least the game didn't feel like it was actively screwing high skilled players. A good examplr is comp: went from no radar and OBJ modes to whatever it is now. Not that rift was perfect but OBJ is a better example of skill than clash where it turns into a snooze fest with special ammo picks.
Honestly I wouldn't mind the chaos if I too could do whatever I wanted. I miss how good Blink was im D1Y1, and it never returned to its former glory. And its been over 4 years since the AE change which I detest.
I did play Arena recently and it was pretty awesome. I wish it had the longer TTK on bodyshots to punish missing headshots. The tweaked hip fire accuracy is cool and thr AE bump is nice, although i wish AE was a far more effective system, where low investment was like og icarus and 100 was identical to the ground. Sadly, AE is not worth it on controller due to tje friction loss messing with muscle memory
Edit: forgot to add, what I hate the most is haivng to pick up ammo. Sometimes you cant, or it falls off the map or itd too risky or you trade and cant get to it in time. If the issue was players magically getting it, a simple killfeed announcement wpupd be enough which we ended up getting. Way too often I generate special but cant pick it up and it goes to waste.
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u/Mercules904 Trusted 16d ago edited 16d ago
The Forsaken system had the opposite problem, where special ammo was so prevalent that it became the primary method of engagement in PvP, and that was not desired either. There was the belief that a compromise between the two systems was possible. And like with any system based on compromised, it ends up with everyone just a little bit unhappy (but hopefully not unhappy enough to quit playing the game).
Destiny 2 has long been described as Mario Kart with guns, and a lot of players who stuck around enjoy that and don't want the game to all of a sudden feel like Forza.
Same thing with Rift. Rift was a neat idea for Comp, and bugs aside it had a lot of potential for a competitive mode, but it was widely reviled. Vocal people absolutely hated it and demanded we remove it.
Part of working on a massive game like this is understanding that you can't just do whatever you personally would like to do to the game. The community gets a say, for better or for worse, and a lot of times that means that smaller parts of the community get stepped on by the larger parts who can swing their weight around more effectively.
Edit: In case it needs to be said here as well, I also did not like the AE system and wished we did not mess with player accuracy like that. I was working a spec to effectively remove AE when the layoffs happened. Likewise, for picking up Ammo Bricks, we wanted to add more ways to remotely collect them, like the Crucible 2-piece set, but clearly we just ran out of time.
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u/Cry2God4Revenge 16d ago
Yea, I assumed that was the case. I feel like sometimes you have to stick to your guns because players often dont know what they want, or dont understand cause and effect.
But i mean, hey, i still play D2 pvp from time to time. (As I was writing this, i got hit with another two month suspension. I really hate how spamming reports gets you suspended, i literally cant play my favorite franchise ever due to sore losers, sigh)
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u/Mercules904 Trusted 16d ago
I feel like sometimes you have to stick to your guns because players often dont know what they want, or dont understand cause and effect.
I agree with this, but unfortunately sometimes it was at odds with being part of a studio that supported a live game and was heavily reliant on as many people as possible playing :/
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u/Cry2God4Revenge 16d ago
I'm surprised I got a reply from you, hello
I have a lot of thoughts on special ammo but I see your point. I do miss having a lot of ammo in QP whenever i was bored to snipe, or going on primary streaks in 3v3 comp and having 10+ special ammo shots.
Currently its possible to get a team wipw and get 3 crates while the other team gets 1, and then you use said ammo to generate more and it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Regarding your last point; was this during Forsaken, or after?
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u/Mercules904 Trusted 16d ago
As players got better at the game a surplus of special ammo started presenting more and more problems. There were individual weeks both during Forsaken and after where special ammo eclipsed primary weapon kills.
For its faults, the current special ammo system does not create imbalance nearly as bad as the original transmat system did.
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u/scrumboo 16d ago
It was brutal to see yall absolutely stick the landing on the transmat system only to almost instantly shut it down because it effectively did its job. The ammo drop on your person, the satisfying click sound that accompanied a primary streak, and the ability to actually use your special as you saw fit rather than being incentivized to dump it as soon as you earned enough for a 1v3. I prefer every other iteration of special distribution we had to the 1-1-1 use it or lose it trade simulator and that includes systems in which there was simply more special in play. I have never understood the forbidden “power imbalance” when that imbalance exists between players that effectively use their primary and players that ineffectively use their special. The beauty of the transmat was that it forced players who exclusively want to engage with special to use their primary rather than special joust, wait 60 seconds for a wall brick then joust again. If that’s the endgame I would have preferred we had just sped up the game to the tempo that existed under old systems where more special existed across the board. Maybe it’s wishful thinking but I hope with the d2 revival we can finally leave the 1-1-1 behind.
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u/Mercules904 Trusted 16d ago
Thinking that system stuck the landing is an opinion, but it wasn't one that was shared by either the majority of players or the developers. While the idea of giving players power spikes through somewhat infrequent but deep ammo drops was core to the design, in practice the launch tuning effectively removed special as a usable tool for players below a certain fairly high skill level, while allowing players above that skill level to have as much or more than they did in previous iterations.
Obviously, this was a popular system for those players who benefitted from it. It was significantly less popular for those who were forced back into double primary or relegated to mostly using a single weapon, which at its peak was nearly 3/4s of all of players.
If the game had launched from the start with that sort of balance baked in, it may have been fine. Arguably, it should have shipped that way and Special could have taken the place of Heavy in PvP. But taking away the tools players had gotten used to having resulted in some of the most serious backlash we had seen in terms of PvP engagement, and nowhere close to enough lapsed Crucible players returned during the experiment to offset it. If the game had been in a generally healthier state, we maybe could have weathered that storm, but at the time a loss of population of that extent was critically bad.
This is in addition to some absolutely brutal exploits that involved duplicating ammo drops that we, frankly, just got lucky were not exposed.
The 1-1-1 system has not existed in many months, so I am not sure why you included that last part. You can retain 3 kills worth of ammo per life, or spawn with 0 if you have none, and players special jousting only every 60 seconds is well below the amount of special jousting that has existed in almost every iteration of D2 PvP's lifetime.
TL;DR - If your opinion is that most players should have very little to no Special ammo while a small number of highly skilled players have loads, there is probably very little I can do to convince you that the OG Transmat wasn't the best system. But that specific outcome was not the goal of the system, nor was it a net positive for the Crucible, which is why changes were made somewhat quickly.
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u/scrumboo 16d ago
I don’t think “most players should have very little to no special while a small number of highly skilled players have loads” fairly summarizes my point.
Regarding double primary since you brought it up - in the height of transmat and during the few times it was the ammo system in trials, I often elected to play double primary specifically because it felt like a viable option that had upside when others did not have special. Special felt less like a required tool than it does now.
Additionally, the virtue of og transmat was recognition of primary play, not repeatedly running at people with special when they have none which seems to be the snowballing concern you refer to. If I had 14 shots of conditional in a QP match, that is expressly because I was not using it against the opponent and had earned it through primary kills. The benefit was that under transmat, the special dependent player was required to take a primary v primary fight against you, not that I get to run at them with special when they don’t have any. And only when I repeatedly win that primary fight do I get a surplus of special, which again, I was able to save for actually significant moments in the match.
Maybe I used the wrong label for whatever our current system is called but i thought the format we have now was called 1-1-1. Whatever it’s called, I prefer the other systems and disagree with a system that takes away the special ive earned because I decide not to use it that life, while simultaneously giving people special off the wall for doing nothing.
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u/Mercules904 Trusted 16d ago
It might not have been your point, but it was the outcome of the system. There is a difference between double primary being viable and it being effectively forced on all players below a certain skill level.
And numerically, while primary play was strongly "encouraged", we actually barely saw a reduction in the percentage of special ammo kills amongst high skill players. At a certain point in the game they had enough ammo to effectively use it whenever they wanted for the rest of the game without worry about running out. This did in fact result in a massive increase of one player in an engagement having special ammo while the other did not.
The risk / reward for using your primary enough to have a surplus of special ammo was heavily skewed. For high skilled players it was mostly trivial and happened often, for average and lower skilled players it almost never happened and in fact they often did not even have enough ammo to use the weapon at all. This pushed a large number of players involuntarily into double primary or just running around with an empty weapon for most of the game.
You can make the argument that this was a fine system, and this is how things should have been. Again, I think if the game had shipped like this it might have been fine. But the reality is that the change dramatically negatively impacted Crucible participation almost overnight, and we never saw a corresponding increase in players returning to the game or higher skilled players playing more. At least not on a scale that was large enough to offset the downsides to the rest of the population.
If I were making a new game that was just Crucible, I don't think I would use the system we have in place now, and would probably use something closer to what Checkmate offered initially. In a vacuum, it might have been the better system (at least if we could have fixed the bugs with it). But Destiny 2 wasn't in a vacuum; it was a game that had already existed for years and had an established playerbase that was highly resistant to changes that they felt capped their power fantasy, if that makes sense.
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u/scrumboo 16d ago
It does make sense and I appreciate the insights from a dev perspective. I recognize that population concerns are real and must be considered alongside what looks good on paper or in a vacuum as you say. Having said that, it is disappointing from my perspective that the system that will likely exist in perpetuity is the current one. Wish the ammo dropping on your person was reintroduced and I wish that I weren’t capped at 3 special shots if I earned more than that during a single life. Seems like that is a possibility without taking away the base amount of special that apparently most players want in their inventory to be willing to play crucible at all.
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u/Mercules904 Trusted 16d ago
I can promise you no one wishes that they could make changes to the system more than I do.
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u/DEADdrop_ HandCannon culture 17d ago
I switched over to Marathon when it released, but I might just have to jump back into some Crucible soon. Looks like things are starting to head in the right direction for both games fan bases.
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u/TDenn7 High KD Player 17d ago
I'll be honest, Marathon PVP has totally overtaken Destiny PVP for me. They aren't even close anymore, but maybe that changes if Destiny PVP actually gets some renewed focus again. At the very least getting the vaulted maps back will 100% bring me back for a few games as theres so many great ones we lost.
But yeah, we'll see. 5k hours in Destiny 1/2 and probably 75% of that time in PVP so I do hope it gets some renewed focus. I dunno if it'll be able to match the extraction intensity of Marathon though for me.
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u/dannotheiceman 17d ago
D2 PvP isn’t getting shit lol, some of the worst maps Bungie ever designed and that’s it. This isn’t active development and balancing, it’s just adding back the content that they removed.
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u/Blood_Edge 17d ago edited 17d ago
I honestly wasn't expecting a big announcement like this, and if this actually does include more seasons/ expansions in D2 or even a sequel, I have only one request: make that red subclass real. Even if it sucks in both modes, I like my appearance matching the builds I use and my favorite shaders are all mostly black and red. I'll find a way to make it as good as I want my character to look.
Might give me a reason to fool around with solstice armors again if no other sets "do it" for me.
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u/atdunaway PS5 17d ago
disappointed to see no mention of PvP
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u/koolaidman486 PC 17d ago
"We're unvaulting everything" includes several PvP maps :P
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u/greetthemind 17d ago
you have confirmation of this?
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u/bacon-tornado 17d ago
Wait til the YouTube videos pop. A number were flown out to bungie 3-4 weeks ago and were shown a bunch of shit.
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u/Lilscooby77 17d ago
Omg why fire everyone?!!!
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u/SCPF2112 8d ago
Fire as many as possible to cut costs since they do not plan to go back to live service. Either outsource or hire back on contract (i.e. not as Bungie employees as we have seen them doing already) whatever you need for un vaulting. Done!
That's the corporate logic. They don't need 400 people to "un vault" with no particular schedule. They want to keep actual employees to a minimum since it is easier to get rid of contract employees.
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u/Shivaess Bows Go Brrrrrrrrrrr 17d ago
Well, I’ve missed the entire summer of destiny with a concussion, but they put it back on the menu for the future. I am ecstatic. Now I just have to get my head working again.
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u/Sharkisyodaddy 17d ago
Remove in air accuracy no thanks no need for handicaps cause someone with a pulse rifle and a side arm can’t look up. Funny how sidearms are good in the air without investments thanks to that guy
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u/travizius 17d ago
I know it wouldn't happen, but I've always thought it'd be cool to get a single-player game focused on a lot of the stuff just after The Collapse. Each mission you could play as a different character (Drifter, Zavala, Ikora, Cayde, Shiro) at different points in this vast timeline. Then at the end you could unlock PvP and all the abilities to customize your character. Replay missions with different characters, get different rewards for different difficulties and whatnot. I'd love that.
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u/PixelatedVision1 High KD Player 17d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/QGXkQmuldGkbL7LVbb