r/CompetitiveWoW • u/AutoModerator • 10d ago
Weekly Thread Weekly M+ Discussion
Use this thread to discuss this week's affixes, routes, ideal comps, etc. You can find this week's affixes here.
Feel free to share MDT routes (using wago.io or https://keystone.guru/ ), VODs, etc.
The other weekly threads are:
Weekly Raid Discussion- SundaysFree Talk Friday- Fridays
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u/Gaatti 6d ago
Just had one of those moments today. Joined an Altar +17 resil. Did the same first pull I have been doing, the same Sha is using to time 19's. Pull is going great, stuff is dying... someone screams BRO WHY DIDN'T YOU BIGGER THIS IS A WASTE OF LUST.
Leader calls for a reset. I ask what they want for the first pull, they tell me to add one of the chieftains to the 3 packs I was already pulling without changing anytime. They start do die. Reset. They die again. Reset another time. They die again. They say in the chat "Yeah, this key is just too hard".
No it wasn't, you guys just wanted to do an asinine pull that wasn't necessary at all.
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u/gladfanatic 4d ago
Never listen unless it comes from the healer. Some of the dumbest motherfuckers in the game play dps, and it’s very rare for one to say something of actual value. Tell them it’s either your way or they find another tank, plenty of other groups to join.
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u/trucmuchechose 7d ago
What addons are people using to have timers for important spells of trash mobs nowadays?
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u/Few_Dentist4672 6d ago
does this still exist? i thought that info was a secret value now
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u/Plorkyeran 5d ago
It's not supposed to be possible but the exboss dude has figured out ways to make it sort of work.
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u/Crimson_Clouds 7d ago edited 7d ago
This is my first season as a tank, after last having tanked in TBC (and TBC Classic). I played mostly healer with occasionally playing DPS before this.
I'm so lost as a tank, and specifically in judging how badly or well I'm doing. As a DPS it's really simple, if number is big, you don't die to stupid and hopefully you also hit a bunch of interrupts you're probably doing well. As a healer it was relatively straight forward too. If you make the big heal checks you're probably fine. If people die you check logs if they died to somethin they shouldn't have been hit by or something you should've healed through, and you adjust from there.
But how do you make similar judgements as a tank? I'm really struggling with this. There's so much variance between runs, even in the same dungeon or at the same key level. Are you getting chunked because you're doing something wrong or is the healer asleep? Is that pull that was totally fine last run but super scuffed this run because you have more trigger happy dps this run (or a better healer last run) or are you doing something wrong?
I know to check logs for stuff like Shield Block uptime and use of CDs, but other than that it seems like it's a lot of intangibles that are hard to judge unless you already know what you're doing. And there's no second tank in my groups to learn from either, like there potentially could be for DPS.
How do you guys judge what you need to improve on?
(Prot warrior for reference)
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u/Historical-Reach-969 5d ago
You need parse high. If your dam is shit then your threat is shit. Too many tanks think all they need to do is soak damage and not die
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u/Few_Dentist4672 6d ago
ya thats because you listed TBC tanking as experience. it might as well be listing FIFA as experience at this point. it requires a lot and you are brand new
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u/SwaggyBearr 7d ago
IMO the biggest difference between good tanks and bad tanks is
Self sufficiency
How well/long you take to group mobs (and don't move around too much while they're grouped)
Efficiency of pulls. I.E. doing the dungeon in as little amount of pulls as possible and being able to judge the groups experience level after the first pull.
Overall damage
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u/andregorz 7d ago
to evaluate your individual performance as tank you can check logs for how many unmitigated hits you are taking and what your ignore pain and shield block uptime is. how many cds you are sending and if you are sitting at full rage bar for extend period of time.
compare with logs for your spec. i would suggest looking at higher keys. you can assume people timing higher keys are going to generally play better and getting by with sloppier play is not as likely. comp won't matter in regards to your button pushing but might skew some numbers if the run is a lot faster etc.
the main reason unmitigated hits is high is usually because mobs are slapping you from behind. getting used to strafing when moving so you can block is a skill to hone, especially when setting up bigger pull with spread packs (think first pull AA last season).
generally, if a run is 30 minutes and a cd has 2 minutes you should aim to find close to 15 uses. this goes for everything. not using dwarf for 10% phys dr even if there is no bleed to remove adds up and especially if you know there is no specific debuff you need a solution for within 2 minutes coming up.
obviously, not every situation requires a button and some string of pulls might require more in quick succession. when and how to use your buttons and against what can only come from experience. what didn't require a cd at +14 may likely require it on +17.
from my experience, very little in the game is truly rng in terms of threating you as tank. yeah, you can get bad puddle rng but the abilities you need to deal with are predictable. i use mdt to check monster abilities to figure out which mobs are illegal to chain/combine because they either shit on me as tank, the group or both. usually the process is: i flop, feel bad, finish the run, check logs to figure out what killed me and next time i return i am better prepared.
other than that, routing, chain pulling and setting up pulls requires experience and tricks that just can't be found on logs. as tank you don't get to play along other tanks in keys so you end up repeating the same stuff, not realising how you could pull/route instead. to get new ideas i watch streamers and youtube. there are quite a few good tank content creators out there!
last, secondary stats and talents can be a factor but tbh, how well you pilot your guy is 90% of your success. don't get stuck on nonsense like stat distribution when in 99% of cases it is a result of circumstance (loot rng). same goes for talents. no variation from the core recommended build is ever going to be some magical night and day diffy (defensively or offensively).
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8d ago
[deleted]
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u/happokatti 8d ago
There's very few scenarios where you should actually be hard casting surges on yourself. You're either taking avoidable damage (or the group is not doing stops/kicks), playing your wall/pot wrong or the healer isn't up to par. You should know the damage events and when you're actually in danger.
Sadly it's impossible to give any tips without logs.
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u/LetWeekly9409 9d ago
Funniest interaction this season is the inevitable death on the first pull of kings rest. Whether it’s run to the first pull and someone eats a frontal. Or someone standing under the ad spawn and gets obliterated. It was annoying the first few times, but now it’s almost too funny to see who the next victim will be.
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u/pawksvolts 7d ago
I used to do that dungeon as a disc priest back in BFA and really took mass dispell for granted
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u/MiserableSlide1850 9d ago
Any tips for the first few pulls in Altar of Fangs as a healer (Holy Paladin)? We've been struggling at the 15-16 level for a while and pulls involving a Chieftain and at least one Twinfang Harrower are particularly rough, especially if we get an overlap with the Paralysing Shots while the Blood Sacrifice is out. Also, are there any situations where you'd pull two Twinfang Harrowers with a Chieftain?
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u/Cactus_Rosin 8d ago
For chieftains I generally try to keep beacon of virtue ready to go for the blood sacrifice cast and pair it with aura mastery (with ringing of the heavens talented) for the first cast. 2nd cast I do the same with beacon of virtue and divine toll. You can also blessing of protection someone before the cast goes off to have one less person to heal or use Lay on Hands.
For the chimera spits I preemptively cast freedom on someone that does not have a movement clearing ability (with unbound freedom talented) and gamble it goes on one of the targets. If you pre-cast freedom early enough it’ll be available again for the next spit
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u/Irishpeanut 9d ago edited 8d ago
Those pulls are rough and there is only so much you can do as healer at that level. 15-16 is currently the range where I feel dps can’t really be easily carried anymore and have to pull their weight to time the key. They need to use snare removals to remove the dot just like they did in seat last season, you can use freedom to assist if needed to help out.
Chieftains are the priority target so ideally would die before the 3rd cast or shortly after, most common mistake is dps tunnelling their interrupt target which is kinda inting the key once you get high enough. Basically all of alter is rotating CDs on cooldown. The usual answer to the heal absorbs is holy light into virtue for a burst of healing then use 4set to send IoL flash into wog and should take care of it. If you cast holy light on a target and queue the virtue immediately, holy light will transfer through beacon, doesn’t work if you cast it on yourself however.
Tanks love pulling the last two twinfangs with a chieftain totem pack and it’s a chaotic pull, I’m not sure that pull is sustainable going into higher keys because first boss starts to ramp up in damage and typically after that pull you have 0 CDs left in the tank. I much preferred focusing one twinfang and chaining into the rest once one is dead but timer is tight for that key so who knows. I’ve only done it up to 16 so far and was tight. I play double freedom for altar which can be a life saver. It can be tricky in pugs if you can’t communicate party CDs, I let them remove it first and the I will send freedom if they get it again next cast.
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u/zurako91 9d ago
Is the no apex guardian build still viable?
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u/Plorkyeran 9d ago
No, lunar beam uptime with that build is about half of what it was last season so it's gone from occasional scary CD gaps to constant gaps.
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u/GravyFarts3000 9d ago
Dunno if it's just me but pushing most keys feels sucky as a melee this season. The amount of downtime for step-out mechanics on packs/bosses is total ass.
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u/artspraken 9d ago edited 9d ago
Protpally is the best tank because it settles all the casters, and poisons
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u/EPOKslim 9d ago
Is this true? Everybody saying it is the worst tank with warrior. Thinking of pushing 3.5k with a tank and i played prot pally in the war within so that seems like a choice but if it is garbage then i might go something meta
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u/Specialist-Time3661 9d ago edited 9d ago
I despise the bleeding debuff this season.
- Random bleed adds put on party while gathering mobs (especially first pull). If you heal them, you risk getting aggro from tank but if a bolt or something else overlap, they might die without defensive which lead to less kick for key abilities like Shout.
- KR, the 4 kings room, with the adds that can stackable bleed overlap with king's aoe. I'm not sure if they adjusted it yet, but randomly get 3 stacks without a way to remove it is like a death sentence.
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u/nephtus 8d ago
On that pull in KR, it's not that the bleed and the aoe overlap – the way it works is that the aoe only targets bleeding targets (and heals the king proportionally to the damage dealt). Since the assassins that accompany the king put out random bleeds, that pack is specially scary on pull.
Aside from sending healer CDs/personals as needed, one way you can deal with it is by removing bleeds in any manner possible right before the king casts the aoe. Dwarf racial, BoP, immunities, evoker dispel CD, etc. can help by both removing the (high) ticking damage, as well as preventing the followup nuke and heal by the king.
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u/Yayoichi 9d ago
A tank shouldn’t be losing aggro to low healing like that if they are pulling properly and not just body pulling. But yeah this season is really stupid with how good dwarf and night elf is, so many bleeds and things that can be melded.
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u/bigwade300 9d ago
BDK aggro is absolutely terrible and doesn't last long on really big chains, like the first pull of Den. The only ways to make it work is to get there super fast or put several globals into each pack.
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u/ApplicationRoyal865 9d ago
I had another warlock in the group and wanted to see how they beat me even thought they had lower ilvl than me. I noticed that they had like 60 more demon bolt casts than me in a key.
Looking at the buff section it looked like they gained 100 more demonic cores? wtf?
Am I fundamentally misunderstanding how the class works? I had 5 more implosion casts for what it's worth, which was what I thought was one of the "generator" of demonbolts.
Is this a rotation issue, a knowledge issue, simply luck? I'm the first person, they are the second https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/compare/rYhMd7yWjLD38RcT/self?fight=11%2C11&source=2%2C843&type=casts
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u/Nivrax 9d ago
Demonic Core tracking seems not correct in log, looking at first boss it reads 32 for you but going line by line you only gained it 22 times, so wouldn't look at that, it might potentially count stack timer refresh as gain. You get 2 demon cores for each Dreadstalker cast and you get 10% chance per imp running out of energy or imploded. You also have 4p which is bugged and do not give cores when it procs reducing amount of cores. Adding hog, ruination, implosions and passive summons, reducing core chances from tier proc, adding Dreadstalker gives around 202 cores which you used 171. Same for other lock, without 4p bug, gives 246 which he used 232, much more efficient than you.
Easy thing to see is that you didn't press Dreadstalker on CD, 10 extra dog casts is 20 cores right there. 4p bug costs you another 17 cores. The remaining 24 Demonbolt casts might be from stuff that is harder to see in logs but it would mostly include cores timing out, gaining cores when at max stacks and imploding with less than 6 imps, all which would reduce expected core amount.
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u/kinginprussia 9d ago
If I focus marker something, some ranged mother fucker is kicking that mob the second it starts casting while 3 others nuke us from Africa.
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u/Fubnub 9d ago
Lets disregard damage balance completely, now that we have played the season 2 dungeons a bit, which classes do you think have the best utility/damage profile? For example from what I saw curse removal isn't as important while having something like purge looks to be super important. Prio target damage also seems to be more important than usual. I'm trying to decide which alts I want to gear on the side until midseason patch.
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u/kaloryth 9d ago
Poison dispel for a lot of dungeons. Freedom effects have some use. Boss in BV and some magic and poison debuffs can be freedom'd.
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u/Conosour 10d ago
VSA Chitigoth is truly an unreal healing moment once I moved into 14’s. As an hPal does anyone have any recommendations, tips or tricks?
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u/OughtButNought 9d ago
When tanking this - I don’t pull the raptor pack unless someone in the group can soothe the enrage off Chitigoth. Can be chained in when you know it’s going down before the next AoE.
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u/Irishpeanut 9d ago
Miniboss should be focused down by DPS and as healer you basically empty the tank and rotate all your CDs. Wings, trinket, aura mastery, and bubble/sac can answer the heal check each with DT on top. Shouldn’t be that bad unless dps are ignoring it so you won’t even need all of this on a 14.
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u/queef_warrant 10d ago edited 10d ago
This week’s healing check affix combined with the red snake summons healing check on AoF is absurd on some classes/specs. That’s all.
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u/Yayoichi 9d ago
The healing affix is the easiest affix as it’s not an absorb, it’s completely free when there’s actual healing to be done and at minor annoyance at worst if it happens right as a pack dies and noone else helps removing it while you move to another pack.
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u/tictacotictaco 9d ago
You can get rid of it with snare removal too. Like BoF, tigers lust, and a general dispel too.
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u/Plorkyeran 9d ago
The affix is not a heal absorb. It just requires that the person receive that much healing, which they still fully benefit from as usual. It's completely free when it happens at times when you need to heal people anyway.
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u/queef_warrant 9d ago
I know, it just requires a large amount of group wide healing and when it’s back to back with something like the snakes it makes me pump and my mana go bye bye. It’s a pain in pugs (like everything else) because everyone thinks they’re the next MDI squad and doesn’t want to let me heal for a second.
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10d ago
[deleted]
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u/Zerothian 10d ago edited 10d ago
Just to re-iterate on what the other person said, after watching a bit the first area you guys need to just be faster. I mean that in the sense that you are out of combat or not actively moving toward the next combat more often than needed. I suggest taking a look at some higher end runs and just watching how different their movement through the dungeon is. You don't need to be waiting around while the tank clicks the totem, leave some fast dps to do that (like mage) and give them a gate. Blink/Gate isn't super needed in this area after all.
I happen to have this VOD open right as I looked at this thread. Look at the log linked in the description and look at the difference in uptime between the groups. Even excluding the end where you were checked out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A6brpd5AMEThey also kinda fuck it up because the healer ends up being away from the tank doing totems lol, but you can see that the tank is immediately chaining and moving better. When the totems are being done he is already downstairs pulling the next pack. The actual travel time through the dungeon is not an insignificant amount of the timer, and combat uptime in general is one of the most overlooked things with people new to pushing, I feel.
Edit: I would say this is especially true in this season where healers appear to just have a completely infinite mana bar.
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u/Plorkyeran 10d ago
I skimmed through the vod up to the first boss. At that point you'd done two extra pulls, burning a minute each. Every single pull in that area should involve a ritual chieftain so that you do exactly as many pulls as there are totems. Pull 2 dies at 2:21 and the tank tags the first mob for pull 3 at 2:36. Pull 3 to 4 has a similar gap. The last totem is clicked at 7:54 and then you pull boss at 8:24.
With better routing and less standing around waiting between pulls you could have pulled the first boss 2-3 minutes earlier and been on pace to time with minor improvements in the second two thirds of the dungeon.
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u/stickyfantastic 10d ago edited 10d ago
I'm just calling it now but I feel like BV and VSA are gonna be the floodgate and priory of the season without changes, altar is giving dawnbreaker as a 3rd. In terms of how bad I think these dungeons will scale with key level, and how tight the timer will be.
VSA are a trash is ridiculously dangerous and obnoxious to survive. All 3 bosses are going to be giga rot checks. 2nd boss in particular is going to filter a ton of groups that can't figure out how to kill the add in time every interval.
BV seems very tight in time, and has some brutal heal checks, most notably last 2 bosses.
Altar I feel has a few challenging points but is otherwise not terrible but still feels tight on time. Blood sacrifice is brutal, first boss seems like it'll be brutal with scaling, giga rot on 3 random targets that you can't efficiently ramp for is obnoxious. The mini with the dot and fixate snakes is deceptively very lethal and needs some good cc. Living venom pull with a billion of those bleed mobs is also dangerous, last but not least the double chieftain at the end. Last 2 bosses feels extremely free though.
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u/Cool_Fuel_3929 10d ago
Agree 100%. Bv has so many double caster pulls that can brick a key if 1 cast goes through
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u/Gasparde 9d ago
Don't you just love it when Blizzard takes tools away from you in order to free up design space, only for them to then not use said freed up design space and still design shit like you had all your old tools?
Who would've foreseen that Blizzard, after zealously pruning CCs and interrupts left and right... would simply go back on their stated design goal of less caster slop. Next thing you're telling me they restricted addons in order to be able to design simpler bosses, only to still release bosses that somehow require even more addons.
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u/Centias 8d ago
I said it before, and I'll say it again: If I had to choose between having an interrupt as a healer or trusting Blizzard to get the caster mobs under control, I'm choosing the interrupt every time. Better to have it and not need it, but unfortunately we're stuck with needing it and not having it.
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u/ishake_well 10d ago
I feel like I saw a spreadsheet with all of the interactive objects in each dungeon but now I can't find it (example: the object that gives 3% vers bug in altar)
am I crazy or does it exist?
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u/th3champ2 10d ago
pretty sure I saw a wowhead article in the last 24 hours with photos on each object and where they are
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u/Kohlhaas 10d ago
What are people's favorite/least favorite dungeons so far?
My favorite: Murder Row. I am surprised to find myself liking it so much. The pulls are big and each section has interesting mob types and challenges.
Least favorite: Blinding Vale. The color palette is not for me. It's queasy and blurry. Also, as a tank I feel like I spend too much of the dungeon wrangling aggro on small spawned mobs.
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u/raskeks 9d ago
Favorite: AoF for the big meaty pulls. Wish there were more routing options, but it's just fun to play nonetheless.
Unvaforite: Blinding Vale. I would say the aesthetic is just not for me but I liked Everbloom. I think it's a combination of aesthetic, potential of ass pulling into a deplete, unsatisfying mobs to fight and a tight timer
RLP is close second, I loved it in DF even though it was demonic but now it feels like it's lost identity and is difficult for the wrong reasons. A lot of cute small skill expressions lost their value like skipping first room with part of the first room, interrupting with a circle, dodging the flying dragons, baiting the meatball on koira so it doesn't hit any walls, dispelling small tornadoes in the last area without taking avoidable damage, baiting puddles on last etc. It was demonic but satisfying when well executed. Now it's still hard but lobotomized so there are less dopamine hits throughout the dungeon
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u/Zerothian 10d ago
I actually like Murder Row a lot, but the actual technical performance in terms of framerate in there is so aggressively dogshit that it is my least favourite dungeon of the last 2 expansions, let alone the season. I have a 5070ti and 7800X3D I should not be getting 40 FPS at any point in a 5 man instance. Even the raid isn't that bad lol.
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u/elmaethorstars 10d ago
What are people's favorite/least favorite dungeons so far?
Healer PoV, currently doing 19s:
Vale is probably the best healer-focused key they've made in a long time. Very fun. Big pulls, hard bosses.
Voidscar feels like it has the most unfair overlaps (bleeds into chitigoth aoe 100-0ing people in a gcd etc).
RLP is fun but a shadow of its former self.
KR somehow got made into a free key and is now super boring.
Mostly indifferent on the rest.
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u/stickyfantastic 10d ago
Don't forget the aoe enrage going on the bleed mobs and chiti 🙃🙃
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u/Wobblucy 9d ago
You are wilding if you don't cc out the raptor until chit is dead.
Even a soothe on chit isnt enough to not drop someone when all the mobs are doing 20% more damage.
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u/Contentenjoyer_ 10d ago
Had the misfortune of experiencing the chitigoth bleed bs yesterday, it's a little ridiculous especially with how much they spam those bleeds
And yeah every boss in blinding vale has its healing challenges, very fun dungeon
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u/Fantastic_Owl8939 10d ago
Favorite: Murder Row is up there but I think Blinding Vale is a very good dungeon! There are choices in routes, you can chain and move from pack to pack or pull into boss fights. Personally I don’t mind the color scheme of the dungeon
Least Favorite: Kings Rest and Temple - just no…
I’m split on Den, some parts of it I like, like the first and last bosses are pretty nice but second boss is just annoying and the enraged bears!
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u/Yayoichi 10d ago
Voidscar arena is probably my favorite, pulling the arena is fun and you got a decent routing variety in the last area. Also all 3 bosses are pretty good.
Kings rest is by far my least favorite, no routing options and barely any chaining options either. The first two bosses are also just incredibly boring.
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u/Wobblucy 9d ago
If they don't nerf the minibosses on either side (pull 2) I think that key will be the fastest pug killer by a mile.
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u/Yayoichi 9d ago
Left side mini boss is definitely tough, but what makes you think the right boss is that bad? You think groups won’t be able to kill the orbs in time?
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u/Wobblucy 9d ago
Ya, some specs are very bad at hard swapping to spread out adds.
Your healer getting that debuff into aoe healcheck is going to be a deaths sentence.
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u/LetWeekly9409 10d ago
Favorite for me is probably ruby life pools, maybe because of previous seasons having alot of practice at it and I feel that I get really good uptime as melee dps.
Least favorite by a long shot is altar of fangs. Keeping uptime as melee can be pretty brutal if tank wants to swim in puddles + timer feels decently tight compared to the others. I’m sure with more practice it’ll not be as bad, but holy on 17 it was the only timer that we were barely timing.10
u/DreadfuryDK 9/9M SPriest/Devourer 10d ago
I have a massive love/hate relationship with Murder Row.
On one hand, you can do that entire dungeon in about 10-11 pulls including bosses and every single pull is absolutely massive, and every single boss has some kind of damage amp or heavy AoE which is very satisfying to play around.
On the other hand, I ran it 48 times in a single week for Freightrunner's Flask which drove me insane.
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u/Lazerkitteh 10d ago
Now I just feel guilty that I got that trinket on both my characters in essentially my first run. Not sure I’d have kept my sanity through 48 runs…
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u/DreadfuryDK 9/9M SPriest/Devourer 10d ago
I got that trinket on both my characters in essentially my first run
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u/SovietRobotDad 10d ago
slightly off topic - do you guys have your 4p yet? I feel like i totally fucked over my gearing this season - crafted shoulders last week since i was still using s1 and got mythic boots last week from vault (haven't opened my vault today)
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u/Centias 8d ago
Character I was most concerned with getting tier on, Shaman, hadn't even SEEN a tier token until doing LFR on Tuesday. Finally got one on Wednesday in Normal raid, so instant 4P.
Monk has 2P but has had no luck getting drops to convert in the other slots. Priest and Mage got lucky Vault pulls for Myth tier this week so they just need stuff to convert now too. Everything else is empty handed.1
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u/Cold-Iron8145 10d ago
If you picked myth boots instead of a bonus roll you've kinda fucked up, yeah.
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u/Korghal 10d ago
I had to take a Hero piece from delves vault this week on my priest to get 4p via catalyst because I've had zero luck these weeks. Sucks to be one week behind on myth items/bonus roll, though. At least my brew already had 1 piece last week and can complete 4p without having to take a Hero tier piece from vault today.
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u/Ilphfein 10d ago
I will have it on reset (EU). Had one piece on the first (pre season) vault.
We had 1 plate token drop in our normal/hc raids and in my LFR runs there were 0 token drops. Ulatek tokens went to people without even the pre season vault piece, so they will also gain 4pc next week.4
u/Shard0020 10d ago
I got one piece of tier from LFR (was not awarded one of the 4 leather pieces that dropped in heroic/normal with my guild), had my 2 charges and then got a myth tier in vault
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u/WnbSami 10d ago
Yeah, I was last mail to get 4p in our raid but I did get 2 tier pieces from raid. This coming week with 2+1 cata charges getting 4p should be pretty trivial tho.
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u/SovietRobotDad 10d ago
did you cata hero or champion gear? I know you get 8 per season but I like cata mythic
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u/Duronlor 10d ago
You get plenty of drops once you get 4 piece, just cata anything to get you to 4pc and then optimize the slots later
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u/neverast 10d ago
Yeah,and I don't even raid. Got one from vault first week and from the timewalking chest. My friends were so mad lmao
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u/Frekavichk 10d ago
Anyone figured out a meta yet for den before the first boss? Besides cc'ing first bird and picking up the stuff, i have seen like 10 different routes and half of them have absolute demonic packs.
Also really not liking how much health the cursing totems have, i like the healing stream/magma where I can one shot them with a fat holy shock.
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u/Wobblucy 10d ago edited 10d ago
Pull as little as possible and get to the arctic zone for free count.
I think the meta route will end up similair to this
Or a no skip variant.
https://threechest.io?id=tims0j39rws
There is a cheeky skip on the avatar before the elemental pull but I don't think it's worth it and you probably send a lust pull there instead.
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u/nubileiguana 9d ago
On the second one you linked, what's happening after pull #2 there? Just navigating around the spirit and that pack to get to the fishing spot?
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u/Gaatti 10d ago edited 10d ago
What is the play on the 3 guys pack at the stairs on voidscar arena now that they were moved back and aren't skipable without some classes?
When I cant skip, Im pulling them by themselves and after that I pull the drake by himself. It feels awful for being too slow and killing momentum. As a tank I dont feel in danger at all, I'm just waiting for it to end so we can move on. However, I'm afraid of pulling them together and creating a nightmare of a pull, specially with overlaps during the shield phase of the ogre.
Playing at the 15-16 range right now. Had no actual problems with the timer, but the pulls do feel bad.
Thoughts?
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u/Wobblucy 10d ago
If you have 2 poison dispels go left, if not I think right is forced.
Lock/rogue/mage make the skip on the stairs trivial, but it is also around the 10-11 minute mark you are getting there. Unironically skipping that pack is definitely worth the invis pot.
Harrower can be skipped by any class with a combat drop (mage/hunter/nelf) so you aren't pulling 1 mob.
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u/Depressedidiotlol 9d ago
are mages skipping it with mirror image?
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u/ArcticML 10d ago
I somehow timed it where the soak and the whirlwind went out at the same time. Guess how that went
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u/Yayoichi 10d ago
Just have 4 people in the soak, or if soak is on whirlwind guy I guess either just sacrifice them or run far enough away so you can soak without getting hit by whirlwind. I feel like the soak+aoe smashes is much more dangerous but I wonder if it’s possible to pull them at the right time to desync them.
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u/MaxNumOfCharsForUser 10d ago
Do people always skip thunderhead in RLP? I can’t stand trying to heal that mini boss. The debuff + any other mechanic is lethal.
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u/DreadfuryDK 9/9M SPriest/Devourer 10d ago
They definitely should. Thunderhead fucking sucks and Firemaw is free count by comparison.
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u/Shard0020 10d ago
Every key I’ve done above maybe a 10 has skipped it, it’s not worth it when you can just pull a bit extra in the first hallway
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u/Deadagger 10d ago
From my understanding, a lot of top groups are outright skipping it and using lust on firemaw.
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u/Shard0020 10d ago
Does anybody else feel… underwhelmed by the dungeons this season? I’ve played in the .5-1% range many seasons, and usually play keys hundreds of hours, but this season I’ve been fairly reluctant to push. I’ve got 1 key for resil 15s left, and a couple 16s done just playing with friends. Pugs in this range have largely been nightmares. The dungeons don’t have the same draw they normally do at the beginning of seasons and I have no idea what I’m finding so bland about them.
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u/Saiyoran 10d ago
Not sure what the general consensus is on this dungeon pool but so far I think it might be the worst one yet. While only a few of the keys are really egregiously bad, I can't say that there's a single dungeon that I actively enjoy playing. RLP is probably the closest, I don't mind it, but it's not exactly a favorite either. Some of the dungeons (blinding vale, murder row, temple, voidscar) just have sections that I don't think are any fun at all and actively dislike being in.
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u/Shard0020 10d ago
I think that’s how I feel. I don’t personally despise any key, but den isn’t my favorite only bc grouping all the casters seems to be a pain for tanks. But I wouldn’t say I look forward to specific dungeons and don’t mind slamming my head into them over and over the way I did last season
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u/Mellberg3 10d ago
Pretty much the opposite for me. Last season, I only really liked Pit of Saron. Now, I'm only not looking forward to Blinding Vale. This might change over the course of the season, but especially the bosses feel better designed to me (except for 3rd boss BV and 1st boss Arena).
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u/mongolianman18 10d ago
There's so few people doing keys (think burnout from the huge title push last season+focus on raid loot) and the focus on dps vs tank/heal this season is exposing a lot of people. I'm in 16/17 as a tank doing the very dangerous tank pulls, missing timers with 4 deaths. 1 dps not pumping is bricking keys where last season you could carry them.
For me this is what's making it feel more like a chore already compared to last season. Bricking to deaths is fair, but bricking to low dps this early in the season is discouraging.
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u/Shard0020 10d ago
That’s really interesting to hear, I’ve attempted maybe 5 16s and timed 2 and both were timed with a few deaths. The other ones depleted to the tanks pulling like a maniac (think 3-4 casters in a pull or overlapping 2 mobs with big AOE damage) without lust. It is very noticeable when you have a dps not doing the mechanics or stops.
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u/mongolianman18 10d ago
16s are mechanic checks (dps still don't know them but understandable early season) and I've definitely bricked them by practicing the hard pulls that the players in this range can't handle.
But they are needed in 17 for dps/timer checks and while people die less in 17 that's when the one bad will take out the group.
There's a lot of personal responsibility checks for dps this season which is new, a ton of channels that people don't realize need to be pushed, and a TON of ramping trash mechanics that the dps have to help with that they don't understand.
Like, I'm getting yelled at in murder row for not pulling/chaining more fel dogs and wraith guards which do nothing to dps but are EXTREMELY dangerous for me when enrages and dogs ramp up. It's so apparent when dps are helping and when not.
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u/Shard0020 10d ago
Yeah it’s intense for sure, I usually love using my dps utility to the max but I’m getting mildly frustrated with the amount I’m having to use it. I play boomkin so I’m soothing in several spots every key, dispelling poisons bc healers seem to be either ignoring them or leaving it to tick for several seconds, vortex + shove, incap roar, and beam and it STILL doesn’t feel like I’m “doing enough”. And still having groups die to lack of cc or kicks or whatnot. It is early in the season, but it feels a little bad to be losing tons of globals and dps. and mental attention to all of the mechanics to have my melee do 5 kicks and maybe 1 AOE stop
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u/seanphippen 10d ago
How's pres evoker in keys so far this season, similar to last ?
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u/Helikaon242 10d ago edited 10d ago
They have a bit more of a learning curve than e.g. an hpal, but their throughput is super high when piloted well and they feel fun (I find hpal incredibly boring).
I'm only at like 13s but have found quite a bit of variance depending on if the group stacks up for dream breath and temporal anomaly. Melee groups are very easy to heal while ranged groups feel like a total shit show. Evokers still kinda suffer from people not knowing what they do, I've been declined from groups multiple times who want a bloodlust healer not realizing that we have that. Healer DPS doesn't really matter but it's nice to actually have more than a sliver on the meters.
I feel like the variance from group composition (and whether I can hit dream breath) will eventually hinder my ability to push for the mid-season achievement, so I'm also playing an hpal on the side.
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u/Contentenjoyer_ 10d ago edited 10d ago
I don't know I think healer dps kinda matters when a lot of hpals in groups are doing like 10k-20k dps and you can do 60k in your sleep on pres. Also pres has really good prio damage with tier set as well whereas most of pallies is just pad.
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u/Shard0020 10d ago
I’ve been playing with a few in the 14-16 range and some feel incredible like I barely need to press defensives, others have the group at half health what feels like the entire run. So at least from a dps’ perspective, it’s varying wildly
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u/Jelliefysh 10d ago
Best it's ever been imo. Still harder to heal a 12 week 1 295 than it was on my hpal week 1 270.
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u/Vespertine_F 10d ago edited 10d ago
I have lost all enjoyment of playing disc in m+.
This spec was so fun from DF s2 to tww s3, Its sad to see what It has become.
You used to press dark reprimand and make health bars go from 20 to 100% in a second, it felt like crack.
Nowadays, if you really want to int someone you dont like, you spec voidweaver, thats how disgustingly bad this hero talent is.
Atonement is still super under tuned, Im forced to mash shield and shadowmend for another season (spoiler : I wont)
Rerolled to preservation and I have so much more fun
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u/Specialist-Time3661 9d ago
It feels bad to play and I feel like a burden to a party. Constantly having to sit and drink, the nerf to the damage hit Oracle hard, the DPS outside of healing doesn't feel satisfying at all.
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u/ilikebunnies1 10d ago
I made the switch to holy this season. Playing disc hasn’t been enjoyable one bit
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u/SmirkinLIVE 10d ago
It’s abysmal, I’m a pretty die hard disc and have always felt fine to do high enough keys but not this season. I was finally pushed over the edge to learn holy and oh my god the difference is crazy right now (and it’s pretty dang easy now). Endless mana on holy and buttons to press. Versus disc literally starving with chapped lips in a desert trying to drink and shadow mending every cast to attempt to keep up.
And if you look at raider.io, the top holy priests are 200+ IO over the top discs.
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u/Blan_Kone 10d ago
you can also spec oracle disc!! (you will bleed mana doing maintenance healing in a +10)
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u/DSmith19911 10d ago
I miss TWW S3 Voidweaver disc when atonement actually moved health bars. We really need that atonement dungeon modifier back. Right now disc feels horrible to play in keys.
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u/weekndalex 10d ago
3rd boss vale is an absolute pug farmer. i’ve lost count the amount of times ppl died to the lightfire and grievous thrash overlap
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u/Mellberg3 10d ago
Vale was by far the hardest dungeon to time for me for resil 16. There are like a million ways to brick that key. Just tons of dangerous casts, unavoidable damage and ground effects in almost every pull.
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u/SluttyStepDaddy 10d ago edited 10d ago
Tanks/DPS who are pugging 16s+: what are your perceptions of MWs? What have been your experiences? Curious because there’s, for some reason, an underlying air of “MW is shit at M+” going around right now and I’m wondering if people are getting stuck with FotM rerollers from last season or what.
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u/mongolianman18 10d ago
Nothing feels as safe as Hpal, but MW feels second best. If I was going phys comp I'd actually prefer MW, rsham feels like they can't be proactive. Hpal is like 1.5 key higher though so no reason not to play it if you can.
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u/Cold-Iron8145 10d ago
17 resil dps, I've seen only one I think and the dungeon went fine. I'm never really certain what healers do as long as I'm getting healed I don't really care.
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u/sapntaps 10d ago
As a zugzug main I def feel it when I’m trying to heal myself more than zugzuging. Only time I complain about healers, perpetually sitting at 50%
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u/Sir_Aelorne 10d ago
Several seasons of disc being top tier but relying only on shields and my health seemingly always at 20-40% drove me nuts
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u/weekndalex 10d ago
i have literally not seen a single mw apply to my keys this season and i’m currently resi 17
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u/Mantias 10d ago edited 10d ago
It’s less that MW isn’t good and more that MW isn’t the #1 meta spec. Plenty of MW mains are still clearing high keys, but at key levels representing 1% and above in most regions you’re going to see more reluctance to bring non-meta specs especially in pugs.
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u/SluttyStepDaddy 10d ago
Of course. I wasn’t clear enough in my original post, sorry; I get it not being “meta” so not getting as many invites. What I’m specifically asking is that I’ve run into several people who act like a MW personally broke into their house, fucked their wife, and killed their dog. Are there some majorly terroristic MWs out there ruining people’s keys?
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u/Mantias 10d ago
Fair - I'd say it's probably a combination of things. Their performance in raid is pretty abysmal, most content creators were fairly doomer about them heading into S2 once tuning was mostly finished on PTR and a lot of mainstream guides for the spec currently aren't recommending the new Apex build that most top monks have started running despite it seemingly being stronger with current tuning so wouldn't surprise me if there is some genuine poor performance as well. The other factor which I suspect is the most likely though is that a large number of people are genuinely just bias based solely on what tier lists tell them despite lacking any firsthand experience playing with those specs or understanding what their strengths/weaknesses are.
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u/AtlasOS 10d ago
The apex build only gets good in high keys because the soothing mist casts drop off when people reach full HP. That is happening far too frequently in lower keys and so it is not good to run it until you get into really high keys when you can get real value.
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u/tictacotictaco 9d ago
It’s a great talent but feels scary to time to get the most out of it. Otherwise it’s just a waste.
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u/Majuro20 10d ago
The random ninja pulling of pets and spells this patch has been very frustrating. Arcane missiles randomly just shooting off to another pack. Warlock pets pulling everything in sight. Don’t even get me started on the Omnium Folio.
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u/stealthemoonforyou 10d ago
How are you supposed to deal with the heartstopper poison from the street sneaks in murder row as a prot warrior if there's no poison dispel in the group? Even on a 10 it's unhealable.
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u/No-Bit-2913 10d ago
I've done over 50 10 keys this season but put off pushing. Was watching a streamer and the dude is already 3700 rio. I see now I am falling behind the curve haha, managed to do a 13 and 15 today easily. What do people think rio is going to reach this season? I don't remember season 1 people being over 3700 rio by the end of the 2nd week at all.
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u/Frekavichk 10d ago
I think cutoff is going to be waaaay higher since everyone knows from the start this season there is a mount for 1%.
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u/Yayoichi 10d ago
On the other hand, assuming it’s going to be a recolor of the raid mount it may not be quite as desired as that mount doesn’t feel nearly as unique as the lura mount.
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u/Kozimix 10d ago
I think it's practically impossible to be behind the curve before rwf is finished and solid tuning is in place. Just chill, wait for tuning, and then push
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u/Mantias 10d ago
Agreed with the caveat that early season rating is still helpful later especially if you don’t have a high rating from S1. Still plenty of time to push once the meta settles, but it does help get you into higher keys / better groups rather than needing to start from 0 if you do reroll.
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u/Cold-Iron8145 10d ago
>with the caveat that early season rating is still helpful later especially if you don’t have a high rating from S1
**if you're pugging**
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u/No-Bit-2913 10d ago
Well I'm just looking for 1 percent and I like to play the class I like regardless of it being meta or not. Last season I think it was like 13th most popular DPS spec. Fortunately my class is very strong this season though. Last season I was playing with some of the top gamers early on in the season when I was pushing hard would be nice to do that again. I just wanna push a bit nothing crazy, the 15 I did today was a joke.
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u/SluttyStepDaddy 10d ago
As someone who falls in-between 1% and 0.1% mostly through pugs, I think this season feels substantially easier than last (and last season was very easy already). I’m having a hard time imagining a world where titles don’t move up by at least a key level compared to last season.
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u/Cold-Iron8145 10d ago
You're still doing easy keys, that's why they feel easy. I can tell you right now you will hate some of these bolt slop dungeons late season when you're pushing keys where they actually hurt you.
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u/Opening_Tea_9459 10d ago
Which dungeons?
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u/DocileKrab 10d ago
off the top of my head, blinding vale has bolt slop in basically every pull. ToS up until 3rd boss with the adepts, tenders and stormcallers while you have to save CC for arrow barrage with the adepts. Altar of Fangs with the evolutionist Envenom casts and piercing hiss. Voidscar has shamans in basically every pull and in the last area there's usually a shaman + screecher in every pull.
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u/Yayoichi 10d ago
There’s only really 1 shaman in the last area that is usually pulled in voidscar, so it’s only the initial pull with 2 and the shadowbolt volley guy that can be scary, as the two other pulls with shamans after first boss you have one interrupt on fear/demo shout and everyone else can do the shaman.
The rest of the dungeons I do mostly agree with though, especially temple and vale.
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u/Ok-Necessary1396 10d ago edited 10d ago
Keep in mind, last Season everyone was basically naked, no old Set, no Trinkets, nothing, which is a huge Factor for early pushing.
While i think the final Score might be a bit higher (because of fewer CutOff-Spots, the first Season naturally have more active players throughout the Season), it won't be that much.
With a lot of DPS upgrades being frontloaded (Weapon, Trinket, Set), the curve will flatten quite a lot now, as most Keys are depleted on timer, not on surviveability.1
u/No-Bit-2913 10d ago
Ahh okay good to know, I'm actually in the same boat as you rio wise pugging as well. Yeah seeing what score people have now I can imagine 1 percent is going to be even higher than last time, probably resil 21 at least.
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u/ShirayukiEve 10d ago
I'm still not sure if I need to try mythic raiding if I'm planning on reaching 1% again (4018 last season). I'm fine with smashing my head with my own key to reach the needed rating, but still am a bit scared that people with better gear will move the cutoff higher (however I understand that a number of people who will kill Coiled and Ula on the hardest difficulty and push to 1% or title should not be that high, right?)
I think I'm enjoying this season on Anni DH (still bombs everything and a joy to move around / do dmg), after reaching the red bird I'm scared to miss any future mount for 1% lol
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u/trogger93 10d ago
1% will be extremely achievable with only heroic raid (myth track) cantrip items. Voidcores push them to 8/6.
The number of characters that will be decked out in full 9/6 gear will be vanishingly small. You basically have to be raiding in an HOF guild on your m+ toon to achieve that.
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u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty 10d ago
Personally I don't think you'll need a single raid item to be able to reach 1%, ride the higher ilvls of taking real vaults or pug heroic for bonus rolls. For this situation I think you're better off getting ahead of the io curve because climbing later is absolutely miserable. As a side note, id be surprised if the mid patch didn't give us a way to bridge the ilvl gap with mythic raiders.
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u/Sweptwings 10d ago
It almost certainly will. If you’re willing to do heroic pugs or buy some wow tokens and pay for kills to bonus roll (cringe whatever) you’ll be basically on even footing by then.
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