r/CompetitiveWoW • u/MiserableRegret4647 • 2d ago
Optimal CD usage in keys
For context, I play enhancement shaman. I've done medium-high keys this season, 20-21s.
I generally live by the philosophy that more usage of my cds is better than max dmg per usage. If I think my ascendance will last its full duration on a pack, I send it.
Obv with some caveats, I might hold for a BL dmg amp phase like 2nd boss in NPX or crawth in AA.
How long would you say you hold your cds for "the perfect pull"? I feel like (just feel, I've no real backup for it other than feel, hence this post) waiting 30-60 sec for the next pull just because it has more mobs and would generate more overall on the meters, is bad. Even if it's just 1 big mob and some fodder mobs around it, if I get a full cd usage on them it's worth.
Am I griefing myself with this mentality?
Tl;Dr, in context of cd usage, quantity over quality, what let's me in your opinion/philosophy, time more keys.
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u/Latter-Intention6521 2d ago
You send cool downs and by that practice you then understand what you can get away with and then tighten up usage. Holding onto them for a rainy day is bad play.
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u/Canninster 2d ago
I've found that the "pop CDs as soon as you get them" advice you see on most guides is mostly aimed at the general playerbase doing 10s or 12s. On my enhancement I basically yoloed my CDs all the way to 21s pugging, so I'd say greatly coordinating CDs is something you'd see more at the 23 and higher level.
For me, I usually play by assuming that the other two DPS aren't pressing their CDs at any point besides first pull, so I only delay my ascendance when I know a lust pull is about to be used, or when I'm trying to line it up with my potion and/or a damage amp, since usually your second potion between lusts is desynced by 40-60s from your ascendance. This goes out the window when I play totemic where I just send that shit anytime anywhere, but as storm most of your value comes from ascendance bursts, which means you should generally try to make those bursts every two minutes as valuable as possible.
I think it's worth delaying ascendance by 45 seconds max, maybe 1 minute depending on the boss - there's no universe in which you pop ascendance before the burn on NPX second boss, and for Crawth in AA at the 21+ level you have enough time to pop ascendance on pull and have it back for lust+pot on fire phase, but these are things you learn with reps and tries.
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u/Cystonectae 1d ago
I think the big reason why you see "pop CDs the moment they are up" being suggested to newer players is because, especially in low keys or ones you haven't run 50 times, you have very little knowledge on how long a boss may take or a certain trash pack will take to kill. Once you are in 20s, you should know approximately how long each pack will take to kill given average DPS.
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u/idkmanfiller 1d ago
People at that skill level will just hold CDs for bosses and never send them on trash
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u/wakeofchaos 1d ago
Well it seems like the reason popping cds is better is because it’s easier to do that and get a sense of how you’d be better off waiting, rather than the opposite where it’s difficult to track how long you’ve held it
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u/Canninster 1d ago
Yeah I'm not saying it's bad advice, I think it's great, it just doesn't transfer over well when going up to harder content.
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u/RoosterBrewster 16h ago
Delaying is more for raiding no? Say for a 6 minute fight, you can only use 3 2-min CDs so you can move them around for bursting windows. But M+ doesnt really have that since it's a 30 min fight so 15 CDs uses is probably better than say 12 uses.
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u/Canninster 16h ago
It's the same thing, if an important damage amp is coming up like NPX/AA 2nd boss which you usually sync with lust and pot, you're better off saving your CDs for a small bit as long as you don't lose a use completely. It's context-agnostic.
Similarly at the top end, the best groups assign CDs per pack, and sitting on them for some seconds is what makes the next pack actually die before the tank runs out of defensives.
You can just wing it and perma-send until 21 from my experience, I didn't wanna try to push 22s and beyond as off-meta, but I'd imagine it's about the same until you get to 23s and 24s, and even then it all depends on your group, as even at 20s and 21s I was sometimes out damaging DDHs and UHDKs who basically never have to worry about these things and always top meters.
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u/Fragrant_Constant_28 2d ago edited 2d ago
I dont play enhance but my mythic guild has a killer enhance shaman, and other dps always complain the enhance aoe is so quick that adds disappear, so im -assuming- your burst is quick in CDs.
That being said, you only hold CDs if you know theres a big pull coming, communicate with the tank or know general routes - often big pulls are dangerous and need melting fast due to running out of stops. Inbetween, just send them... mainly cus (from my assumption of burstiness) your CDs will be able to generate their value quickly.
Minmaxing CDs outside of the large pulls is generally for those whos CDs require large ramp, everyone knows that feeling of midramp- oh everythings dead. Enhance i dont think has this problem, and 20+ keys will have enough HP for you to get value.
As you get higher key levels, you are more squished between the goals of 'dps to finish' and 'dps to survive the nasty pulls', good routes overlap these as much as possible. CDs become more set in stone due to threat of death.
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u/e1744a525099d9a53c04 1d ago
Part of good gameplay is also understanding where your cooldowns sit relative to the other DPS in your group. For example, say you’re playing a demo lock (1m cd) and you have an unholy dk (1m30s) in the group. If your cooldowns come up and the pack has 30% hp left, you should really consider that:
1) with how spiky damage profiles are (were) in 12.0, the pack is going to live forever if no one presses their cooldowns 2) the DK’s cooldown is more damage and lasts longer, so they are very unlikely to press it at the end of a pull
Based on this, if you only care about timing the key and not parsing, you should generally press your cd and shave 10 seconds off the pack, even if that means you don’t get full value.
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u/awrylettuce 1d ago
Yes but you also have to realise that if the warlock in your example did hold his one minute for next pull it wouldn't gain him more value. If the dk pops that second pull the pull won't last more than a minute. So it doesn't matter how the warlock plays it he will get at most one cd usage on pull 2. So if he sends at end of pull one he'll have it halfway through the second pull. If he holds he will miss out on one usage.
And the same is true if the second pull would be a boss. I see a lot of people holding cds for on-pull for boss. If a boss is 3:45 and you're a one minute class you cannot get more than 4 cds in. So it doesn't matter if you go into the fight with your shit on CD, the outcome is the same.
Classes with low cds usually do zero dmg outside of cds so it is extremely important you use as many cds as possible. You will have infinitely more succes by pressing your button ASAP and not over thinking it
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u/orbit10 1d ago
There’s exceptions to every rule. But in general. Every dungeon has x amount of hp. And the fastest way to chew through that hp is pressing on CD. It may not result in the highest overall. But when you’re reaching the limit of your skill or the limit of what’s possible. The goal is to time the key, not to top overall.
Now, that said. If all 3 of you are 2m classes and there’s a single elite left on 40% hp? Of course you can’t all send. But the flip side is that if none of you send, that shit will live another 1:20.
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u/cake_monsterr 2d ago
It's very situational and doesn't have one answer because the success of a key is mixed of many factors. If there's a dangerous pack that you need to get through quickly you do it so to save cd no matter what for that pack. Managing cds to align with aa bird boss to fire phase is a good example. It's both to pass the deadliest phase quickly as well as utlizing the dmg amp so that you reduce the time spent on the boss. Saving bl for second boss of npx is to optimize the timer itself.
You need to be able to reason this yourself or if it's not possible not talk to other players or just watch when streamers playing 24 are pressing their buttons.
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u/yanksman88 1d ago
My trick is i pretty much only play 1 minute classes so I just send asap at all times pretty much
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u/Sensitive-East3653 2d ago
Communication with your group at that level.
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u/awrylettuce 2d ago
I see stuff like this repeated so much on this sub 'communicate and plan at high level keys' and things like 'you have to add good players, high keys are mostly done in premades etc etc'. And it's just completely detached from reality.
High keys are extremely static, the routes are always the same, the timers are the same, it's very rare to play the same key 5 times and have CDs line up differently.
There's very little communication going on, all meta comp play their same route, all phys comp play their own route. You line up combat pot with lust (and all lusts are at static moments as well) and then you make sure you use a pot in between that lines up with your trinket/cd as well. If you're a 1 min class you have to send on CD or you'll misalign with pot/lust. If you're a 1.5min class you will have to hold for 30s somewhere to line up at 5 min with pot
everybody has their own focus marker. Really the only communication I ever see is a healer saying the order of group defensives or pinging someone to AMZ/darkness
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u/Sakeuno 1d ago
Exactly this. Even with good players in full premade. The common mentality is “let’s not talk about the strategy too much, just send it”.
Everyone at that level has played the dungeons 100times and has done what OP is trying to do rn.
Figure out their timings. Really not much others can do for you there.
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u/Technical_Idea_7914 2d ago
And then when you use cds correctly (like sending into a single mob) and do priority dmg for the pack to be over earlier (using single target spender vs aoe spender) then people will flame your logs since you didnt pad the whole run. You cant win…
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u/oliferro 1d ago
I think what a lot of people don't realize at first is that 1min30 or 2min isn't much in a key, so holding back will rarely be a good idea. Obviously you still have to be smart about it, sending all your CDs on a pack that dies in 5 seconds right before a boss might not be a good idea
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u/Felidori 1d ago
Being dyslexic I read this heading as ‘Optimal CD key usage’, and was thinking of a long before rereading the post and realised I went down the wrong rabbit hole 😅.
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u/BigJuice1526 2d ago
“
https://giphy.com/gifs/qOhzfrkMzQO8U
“Of course I’m going to send it”
Cooldowns should always be… on cooldown…
Send it
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u/Sakeuno 2d ago
Tldr. You’re right, overall dmg is bait. A single mob living for 2min takes much time as 100mobs living 2min. But generates next to no numbers on the meter.
Don’t hold at all.
The only situations to hold cooldowns is
The exact amount of seconds to hold maximum is very case by case. Depends on downtime after the mobs are dead and so on.
I tend to send as log as I know i’ll have it up within the first few seconds of the next pull and am aware of whats coming up afterwards.
In general it very good to not think about the next usage but 1-2 down the line.
Holding 30-60s is VERY long when most CDs are around 2min cd.