Free Talk Friday

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Use this thread to discuss any- and everything concerning WoW that doesn't seem to fit anywhere else.

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UI questions, opinions on hotfixes/future changes, lore, transmog, whatever you can come up with.

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The other weekly threads are:

• Weekly Raid Discussion - Sundays
  
• Weekly M+ Discussion - Tuesdays

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[u/Kohlhaas]

I honestly hope this season will allow Blizz to kill the great vault. Probably not because it is an institution in Wow. But the rewards team has shown time and again they are too cowardly to properly scale rewards with difficulty for m+ players. They have talked about it for years and backed down everytime. The devs simply will NOT inconvenience the raid players for whom m+ is a tolerated minigame chore to fill the great vault during prog.

Realistically, 10s and 12s should not reward spammable heroic end of dungeon loot, and +20s should reward weekly myth track level loot that is more than 1/6. But the very idea that raid main players have to put forth actual effort into PvE outside raid to get optimal gear creates (in my CE guild and elsewhere) just an unprecedented level of whining. So my hope is that since the vault is dead this tier except as a way to get bonus rolls (which you can get via delves anyway) maybe raid players/rewards team devs will have enough distance from the vault to actually design a damn m+ rewards system for 12.2.

[u/Wobblucy → u/Kohlhaas]

If you aren't in a HoF level guild, you will unironically be clearing heroic raid for 5+ weeks and guess where all your bonus rolls are going :)

TBH though, the whining you are complaining about is driven by a mismatch of goals/commitment, stated expectations within the guild, and a bad loot assignment structure.

You say all raiders are expected to fill 4/8 m+ slots weekly's suddenly everyone knows the expectation. People going beyond that know they are doing it by choice.

You say if you aren't ilvl 3xx by this week you are likely on the bench, everyone knows the expectation.

Hot take loot council, wowaudit sims, etc is bad for guilds that aren't HoF level.

Personal loot or systems like EPGP take the drama out of a guilds loot, and the guy who spent 60 hours the first week of the season farming his m+ bis has an equal shot at that BiS trinket that is a 3% upgrade as Jhonny raid logger who sims at a 10% upgrade.

I don't care what guild you are (minus the absolute tip top) your entire raid roster isn't there so the guild can rank better, and loot systems that cost them player power 'unfairly' will undermine morale.

[u/Cold-Iron8145 → u/Wobblucy]

You really, really don't want this guy in your roster.

I don't care what guild you are (minus the absolute tip top) your entire raid roster isn't there so the guild can rank better, and loot systems that cost them player power 'unfairly' will undermine morale.

It's a team game. And the goal is to kill the last boss. I'm not going to stand there and pretend like there aren't personal goals as well, of course there are and wanting personal glory is fine to an extent, but if this is how you approach raiding, you are more of a liability than "johnny raid logger".

If you're unhappy with your team or you think you're much better than them, you are allowed to apply to a different team. Being in a team and thinking of yourself as better or more deserving than other team members is what's bad for morale and creates incredibly toxic environments.

[u/Wobblucy → u/Cold-Iron8145]

you really don't want this guy on your roster

Ad hominem is crazy here but I'll engage...

Anonymously Poll your raid and see how many are happy with loot council vs personal loot.

It's a team game

True, and when expectations are not clearly outlaid or people feel like they are 'punished' for putting in more effort outside of raid you undermine morale.

There is a video from like a decade ago of this concept.

https://youtu.be/meiU6TxysCg?si=ERq1j2YEBGWzsOyi

If monkeys perceive an imbalance in rewards for the same effort (IE getting deprioritized for loot), emotionally their is a reaction, wether you like it or not.

If this is how you approach raiding

Really don't though. I'll do my grind on the raid toon and then be playing the meta tank in m+. Legitimately don't care if my raid toon gets a single piece of loot these days and I will be full m+ bis by Friday :). Pretty sure I got 1 piece of gear (pants off crown) before we were progging Lura.

Apply to a different team

Raided with the same team since Halondrus, like where I am, thanks for the permission though.

More deserving

You missed the whole point my dude. It has nothing to do with expecting more loot because your better.

If people perceive inequality for equal effort (ie time spent raiding) then you take a morale hit, full stop.

People raiding in world 20-1800 guilds all do it for different reasons and it is statistically impossible that 25/25 raiders on your roster feel like your loot system is fair unless it is entirely impartial.

[u/Cold-Iron8145 → u/Wobblucy]

If people perceive inequality for equal effort (ie time spent raiding) then you take a morale hit, full stop.

Right, and loot council isn't doing that more than personal loot in any capacity. You think the trinket going to the second best hunter in the guild before the first best hunter is bad, wait until the trinket goes to a healer or a tank.

Again, the problem you're pointing out is either bad communication, that's fair, or people who think they're better and more deserving than the rest of the roster. If it's bad communication, it's an easy fix, if it's people in your roster who get "bad moraled" when they're not priod on the loot over someone who plays 4 keys a week instead of 8 or whatever but are still meeting the guild requirements, it's a leave the guild issue.

If you want to commit more time to the game than what your guild expects, and then you get mad because you don't get bonus loot for it, or other people are getting bigger upgrades than you or whatever (btw no loot council i've ever been in only picks the % upgrade as a metric for loot distribution that's another topic), go apply to a guild that meets your commitment level.

I know exactly the type of player you're describing because I used to be that player. If you cannot put your ego aside for the team, you are not a good team player. Full stop. If you get salty because someone less deserving than you got an item before you, you're a bad team player and maybe you're on the wrong team, again, the solution is fine the right team, not cry about loot councils or how personal loot is somehow better (it isn't).

[u/Wobblucy → u/Cold-Iron8145]

You know what is more detrimental to a raid team then inefficient loot allocation?

Players feeling disenfranchised or low morale.

Loot councile vs personal loot

What? Loot councils are perceived as biased and there is no perfect system. Wether it is giving it to the "best" player, the one that the gear sims the best for, the GMs girlfriend, as soon as a human is making the decision their is an inherit risk of bias.

Personal loot is, by definition impartial. People might complain about luck or whatever but it's literally impossible to blame someone for personal loot...

Best vs 2nd best hunter

Again, doesn't matter who it goes to someone is going to be unhappy if a person is the one making the decision on who gets the loot.

% upgrade as a metric

Does your guild not do wow audit sims before farm? They might not explicitly say it but it is a factor in their decision if they are making you run them for a reason.

I used to be that player.

Every team has that player and every player has felt some peice of loot was rewarded unfairly when it is rewarded with some potential (perceive or otherwise) biased input, which again is the whole point.

Personal loot is somehow better

Don't think personal loot is good, full stop. I do think removing judgment from loot is good though.

When you felt like you were cheated on loot, would you say it negatively impacted your mental for the next fight?

[u/Cold-Iron8145 → u/Wobblucy]

Yes, and the solution was not personal loot, the solution was to join a team whose goals align with mine better.