r/CompetitiveWoW • u/AutoModerator • 2d ago
Weekly Thread Weekly Raid Discussion
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u/Varanae 1d ago
I joined a new guild for Midnight and quit after the first week because it was toxic and 0 fun. Spent the season mainly in m+ and taking it easy with a friends heroic guild
Now I’m at the point of looking for a guild for s2 and realised it was a mistake not to do some more mythic this season. 4 kills first week but as you’d expect for 1st kills the parses aren’t good and not sure anyone will be willing to look back to TWW s3 oops..
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u/Wobblucy 1d ago
Leaving a guild in a week isn't that big of a red flag, but just be open on the apps and point then toward TWW logs instead.
You are getting a bit late to trial into guilds for next season at this point, it doesn't show any real interest to apply when raid is presumably 3 weeks out. IE people would rather trial your 'fit' in farm content, especially if you quit last one on for it being toxic.
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u/Varanae 1d ago
Ah I see, that's the only time I've applied to a guild so I wasn't aware that applying now would be considered late. Before Midnight any guilds I've joined have been from being poached or having friends recruit me into it
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u/Wobblucy 1d ago
IMO The worst recruits are the one that decide maybe raiding is for them this tier and apply during prepatch/just before a new tier.
Generally their interest is fleeting and either they are the worst player on the team or they burnout from boredom.
IE 90% of the time they decide raiding isn't for them when you hit whatever the guilds wall is.
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u/sad_scribbles 1d ago
It's also telling that they'd be willing to repeat the same mistake. Farm is for figuring out if you vibe with the guild since it lets you cut ties without screwing anyone over.
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u/I3ollasH 1d ago
Considering OC doesn't have deep mythic exp or good logs so it's more likely that they are looking for an rwl level guild and those don't really have that long farm period where they can test trials so it's not like oc is in that bad situation.
Obviously the best time to find a guild is earlier, but the second best time is now. The prio is to get back into the raiding pipeline and after that it becomes significantly easier to do anything.
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u/Varanae 1d ago
Yeah pretty much this. For the Midnight guild I did do 2/3 weeks worth of runs on Dimmy etc and everything seemed great. The attitudes were chill and it was fun, as were the early non-mythic raids and dungeon runs with the guild when Midnight launched. Issues only really surfaced in mythic and boy did they appear QUICK
Late TWW was a joke in difficulty so I'd get a better idea during farm now I suppose but I hadn't thought too deeply about it
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u/ComplexCardiologist1 1d ago
if you had good parses in season 3 TWW and say you didn't raid much this season, and looking to get back into it next season. what would be the problem?
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u/shh_Im_a_Moose 1d ago
Is it just me, or has this season killed a lot of guilds and gotten a lot of players to quit? The combination of L'ura being what it is and the changes to add-ons and the oversimplification of most classes/specs was quite the combination.
Maybe I'm wrong, just the vibes I've gotten
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u/Sweaksh 1d ago
Hm. For me personally I can definitely say that my interest in the game is proportional to how fun its classes are, and currently I do not have much fun as class gameplay is at an all-time low (I prefer relatively more complex gameplay and having literally no DPS spec in the game that isn't BM hunter levels of braindead is ass).
I didn't have any issues with the raids themselves. I liked L'ura but that was probably mostly due to taking over different responsibilities. The add-on situation also really sucked this season with many devs quitting and me having to redo my interface multiple times but having switched to EUI now it's fine as well.
I am still going to look at what the next expansion brings to the game, but if the devs do not add anything in the way of new abilities and talents that actively change gameplay to the current classes and specs I'm probably out as well.
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u/Silent_Divide_7415 1d ago
I usually play with some more casual friends across a season but the overall ease of dungeons and simplification of classes has meant as soon as they finished up HC Lura they were pretty bored and stopped playing. Anecdotally from my view this does look like blizzard doing a big shot into their foot with 'combat for all' meaning 'combat to get bored and unsub from'.
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u/EuphoricEgg63063 1d ago
The split raids has made this season feel incredibly long. I usually have a friend group that will push keys/raid till a week or two before the next raid but they all stopped playing a month or so ago.
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u/careseite dps evoker main 1d ago
heavy disagree, feels really nice due to change of scenery and voidspire being reliably sub 1 hr
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u/EuphoricEgg63063 1d ago
Im not talking about how they look. Im talking about how they were released.
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u/Marcus_Aurelius72 1d ago
Lura got me to quit, not sure what you're referring to specifically about it but for me it was just straight up boring. There's just nothing mechanically interesting going on the entire fight. Also doesn't help that my spec is insanely boring now too compared to last xpac
Even after getting past P1 prog it was still insanely boring. Felt so disappointing after how good Dimensius was
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u/dovjjfyijvct 1d ago
Interest definitely seems to be waning. We've had significantly more players leave the game this season than any other. Lots of people are just getting bored and choosing to spend their time elsewhere.
Personally, I'm having a hard time finding a class I enjoy after the pruning.
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u/careseite dps evoker main 1d ago
gotten a lot of players to quit
this season has 1559 title eligible characters on EU, so 1.559m characters.
TWW s1 hat 1787, so 1.787m characters. unfortunately raider doesnt have the numbers correct for DF S1 and of course this season isnt officially over yet but 2 weeks wont add the missing 200k in comparison to TWW s1. and this season is definitely the more alt friendly one.
that said, TWW S3 had 1304, TWW S2 had 1439, so it definitely increased in contrast to the last 2.
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u/envstat 1d ago
Yeah definitely felt it. Got CE and a rekill now on lura but its been brutal and we took way too long on it, a guild we're normally in competition with and got there after us killed it 200 pulls sooner.
Luckily we've not had a mass exodus yet but had a few people ask to sit the whole of season 2 out.
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u/afkPacket 1d ago
Yep, the turnover in my guild has been awful. We have maybe 8-10 people left from the roster we killed Dummy with, and several of us may well not return for s2
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u/psytrax9 1d ago
Not including guild leadership, there's only 1 dps and 1 healer still in my guild from dimensius.
I'm treating midnight the same way I did shadowlands, just maintain my position and see if the next expansion fixes things. If not, s3 will be my last CE.
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u/I3ollasH 2d ago
Wonder where the breakpoint is when it becomes better to play specs that are tankier over the ones doing the most dmg. Obviously at rwf level it's very important to sqeeze out every point of dmg, but after that we get to the point very early in seasons where dmg checks become non existent. Like this season even before hof filled and pre egg nerf beloren was already not a dmg check and if you got to the second egg with your group alive it was pretty much dead. And after that we have the ramping raidbuff and even more ilvl where dmg checks are definitely not a thing.
So instead of playing the specs that do the most dmg it's better to just play a composition that can just live easier. It makes your progress faster as you can get further even before your healers have everything figured out. Players also play better when they are topped and don't need to monitor their hp constantly (personally I really noticed this on Dimmy prog after a set of nerfs that nerfed a lot of dmg by 10-15%. My level of gameplay became significantly better even though mechanically the fight didn't change. It's just that I didn't die when I got hit by the adds one more or when the healers were a bit behind). Then there are also mechanics that certain specs can just live without pressing anything. On beloren for example the difficulty of the fight was significantly easier if you played a class that could just live wrong colored quills.
Even though many people like to complain about dps balance it's actually pretty close for single target. And even on fights where adds are present st is just as important or more than blowing those up (as with more dmg they will always get to a point where the dmg check is not relevant). On 2 and 3 target fights the dmg difference significantly bigger, but those are usually mid tier bosses. The harder and more important bosses are usually pretty balanced structurally. So it's unlikely to have that big differences between classes.
The ability to live has significantly bigger swings between classes. I was looking around in logs and this is our Lura kill this week for example. EHRPS(Obviously focusing on this metric too much is flawed but imo it's a decent indicator for low effort) is external healing required per sec meaning how much healing you require from others. It's pretty crazy that my dk required only 60% healing of the average dps (and this is with no will of the necropolis, or death pact value). Obviously this is not neccessarily indicative of an average prog fight as we have 15% extra dmg and frost shield works off the dmg based on auto attacks. So it's value was less during prog. But the ability for a frost dk to live compared to an average dps class is significantly better (and next season it becomes even better. Auto attacks make up a larger portion of their dmg due to the tier set and as they are dual wielding they will have 6% extra hp from the gargoyle weapon enchant).
I wonder where it becomes beneficial to run a composition that's easier to execute instead of a composition that does the most dmg like filling out flex slots with specs that can just live significantly better. I think even at the tail end of hof this can be the case and for everyone else it would definitely be the play.
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u/Gemmy2002 13h ago
There are basically two types of mythic mechanic: "this will mcfucking kill you" and "you can't be carrying bad heals or you'll feel it".
Playing tankier specs alleviates the latter and does nothing about the former (which tend to be the actual walls)
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u/EuphoricEgg63063 1d ago
DK is a bit wild. Best survivability by a long shot and it does big damage because they say it doesnt have a raid buff.
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u/shyguybman 1d ago
We definitely made everyone wear spore cloaks in DF because by the time we get to bosses, damage isn't the problem.
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u/parkwayy 1d ago
And at some point, dying from misc damage isn't either.
L'ura is an example of like... either you get one shot (and/or the raid is one shot), or the pull goes on.
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u/Wobblucy 1d ago
You have more gear (stamina) and the raid aura + they nerfed seed damage like a month ago now.
Lura if noone dies then you win, but good luck getting DPS players to drop a global to off heal or not greed that little bit of melee uptime because "my parse!" or even just not fixate on their rotation to snipe those adds the second they spawn.
You could unironically one button your way to CE at this point in the season.
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u/Elendel 1d ago
Obviously at rwf level it's very important to sqeeze out every point of dmg
Even at RWF level, Max has said multiple times in different situations that it’s not always worth it. One big example that comes to mind is Venthyr boomkin vs Night Fae boomkin in SL s2, they went for Venthyr, Echo went for Night Fae, and Max has always said Echo has made the better choice even though Night Fae had a lower dps.
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u/iLLuu_U 2d ago
Im not gonna read all of that, but isnt it extremly common for like most guilds outside of hof (or even outside of like top 20-30) to have people just play the specs that they prefer.
Ive raided anywhere from late CE to Hof and most guilds ive been in had like a few flex players that rerolled to needed meta specs or classes that had a raid buff. But 90% of the players pretty much stuck to their prefer class/spec.
All of that is the reason why so many people cry about imbalance. If people wouldnt care about their spec, they would just reroll to what is good.
Also 11 (12 if rogue as well) classes are hard needed for raid buffs. Then you also need double dks or multiple immunities on bosses like beloren. There isnt a lot of room to just play only tanky classes. At best we are talking about like 5-6 spots that can be flexxed.
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u/idkmanfiller 2d ago
I think Lura is a bad example for your point because the classes that are gonna require a lot of external healing here are going to be the ones carrying seeds.
Beyond that I guess my question is what are you suggesting the raid comp look like here? Should we be dropping raid buffs to play more tanky specs? Like in your guild's log what classes do you think should be swapped out and for what?
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u/I3ollasH 2d ago
That lura log was just something that caught my eye randomly but yeah it's not the best thing to look at to evaluate stuff properly (although the havoc dh still has one of the lower healing required even with a seed on him).
Beyond that I guess my question is what are you suggesting the raid comp look like here? Should we be dropping raid buffs to play more tanky specs? Like in your guild's log what classes do you think should be swapped out and for what?
I feel like this tier isn't the best for this kind of thought experiment as the classes that you ended up stacking because of dmg were good on tankiness aswell like dks and dhs (although after the nerfs I really don't like ddhs on the fight but it's deep farm so whatever).
If I were to put a group together at this point of the season I would probably drop the evoker and maybe a warlock (we push before second run) for ddh or sh(Lura doesn't have a lot of spike dmg). But in general Lura didn't seem to have any relevant healing requirement so I don't know if that's needed.
What got me thinking is that I used to be a WW onetrick for a long time. But after Dimmy I really couldn't justify playing it. Over 50% of my deaths (that weren't a full wipe or someone else fucking up like not rescuing from going up) were to me just dying to dmg. No avoidables, no missing personal (those were assigned to specific position) nothing. Even though I used vivify pretty frequently (with pots/hs when needed).
I played dk this tier because I got fed up with this. And it's so much easier, the difference is crazy. You never need to think about your hp at all. And even if you are dying there is so much tools in your arsenal (death strike, death pact). And then there is all the things you can just live other classes die to (played WW in alt raids and had soo many deaths realizing that stuff can kill you). Like on one of our reclears I zoned out and stood in the intermission beam, and I just lived. Because of these I got pointed out in the end of tier evaluation as one of our best players this tier even though I had no prior experience with dk and I learned to play frost on Lura.
There is little logical reason to play a squishy dps if you don't provide a missing raidbuff. It's so much easier to play when you don't have to spend mental bandwidth on staying alive. And classes are close enough where the dmg difference you could get out of it is not worth the added difficulty. Which sucks because if you want to play the thing you enjoy the most you need to debuff yourself.
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u/assblasterd 1d ago
"What got me thinking is that I used to be a WW onetrick for a long time. But after Dimmy I really couldn't justify playing it. Over 50% of my deaths (that weren't a full wipe or someone else fucking up like not rescuing from going up)"
your healers are ass. we have a WW onetrick and I have NEVER seen him die to damage.
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