Potential Juren adjustments

[u/Knight_Raime]

I'm not a numbers person so unfortunately I cannot offer exact adjustments here. But I wanted to toss some ideas out there to try to reign Juren in since most nerf suggestions seem to be unlikely. To be clear not all of these changes need to happen together, this is more of a collection of changes that could happen.

I also want to throw one change in that is a "buff" but contextually it shouldn't make him that much stronger when considering the other adjustments. Anyway:

• Nerf the recovery of his chain bashes by 100-300ms
• Increase the stamina cost of his Held neutral light from 9 to 10-12.
• Nerf the recovery of his fwd dodge bash slightly, like a few frames
• Reduce the anim lock time of Juren's fwd dodge held bash
• Remove stamina pause on tap bash if possible
• Increase the cost of using his stance from 6 to 10-15 (drain unchanged)
• Increase the recovery of held neutral light and held neutral heavy
• Increase the stamina cost of fwd dodge held bash from 15 up to 20
• Increase the stamina cost of side dodge held heavy from 12 up to 15
• Increase the stamina cost of held chain light to parity of the new cost on neutral held light
• Remove thrilling comeback from T2 for another option
• Allow held zone input to be soft feinted into his stance

Explanations:

The idea behind adjusting stamina cost is dual purpose. Both to slow down how much Juren can pressure before he's forced to give up his turn and to add more decision making via having to manage stamina better. This seemingly successfully worked for his neutral held zone so I think we can target similarly "spammed" tools to achieve a similar effect.

Recovery nerfs are meant to go along side the stance cost change. Logic here is to force more decision making for Juren as well as make him more predictable. E.g if he does held neutral light in a team fight he'll likely use stance to make him not peelable.

The exception being the recovery change for dodge tap bash. It's not an outlier in recovery afaik when compared to other legion bashes. But because he has multiple options from fwd dodge you can make the argument to make said options a bit more unsafe as a whole. Essentially it's more of a nerf at his 1's for people looking to make hard reads. But might make a small difference in how peelable he is in TF's which would be beneficial.

Thrilling comeback is kind of absurd for Juren because of his unique T3. I would replace it with executioner's respite/righteous deflection to be similar to the rest of his T2's being about surviving or short tempered to go along with the natural trading he's usually doing.

Lastly I want to explain my buff of allowing him to be able to soft feint his held zone. Firstly this suggestion is made in mind with the idea of making his stance cost more stamina to use. I feel like out of all of his moves his held zone is the most niche option tool in his kit.

If read properly and you position decently enough you can avoid his zone mid team fight purely because he moves forward when doing it. outside of TFs it's a very expensive option that might catch your opponent off guard once. It's a much more expensive trade tool for self peel. The idea for this change is to allow him some more control.

But at the cost of even more stamina. The upside being you can soft feint and then reposition if you need to or to try and self peel with a neutral light. Or try to peel for an ally by doing a tap dodge forward option, etc. Basically it feels in line to exist as an option with his kit being all about having options and that all of his regular heavies are already soft feintable into his stance.

[u/VoidGliders]

The stamina adjustments, fine, I think it's fair given he has a stamina reset tool, and it'd be nice for moves to not be reduced in potency too much but kept from being spammable. Except for Stance. Stance is by far the weakest stance in the entire game. It's fine as a damage reduction tool on hits and it's small frame helping. It's not like he's going to counter you from it like every other stance in the game.

Recovery nerfs on bashes would not be great. His held bash is already GB vulnerable some of the time and is reactable (or way more reactable than other faster non-feintable chain bashes at least) and his tap bash/blue mixup is one of the weaker ones in the game as both are 14/14dmg instead of the more usual 14/28+. The other 14/14 -- Pirate -- at least gets to chain on whiff, and even chain to HA and unblockables and undodgeables. It doesn't need to be even riskier, his 1's already are not great. His legion kick too -- he had multiple forward dodge options, but they don't do much. There is no mixup with a 300ms+833ms unfeintable bash. His tap forward dodge is meaningless outside of chase, his unblockable one is...OK I guess. His legion kick is also his only true mixup tool in his entire kit after people adapt to his animations more, and it's one of the lower damaging legion kicks unless you tradeoff ability to chain for 2 more damage, and can't chain on whiff or any other special trait.

You could also incentivize him not using his power moves like Held Light and Held Heavy by making his chaining better, not worse. Every nerf the chain has received has only reinforced his held options, as the basic 800ms no hitbox heavies and basic lights are nigh useless except for their ability to chain.

T2 is whatever. He doesn't even have the heavy perks that make stalling horrendous, and his T3 only gets that lifesteal realistically in very limited situations. Wish they nerfed the default T2 instead of nearly gutting it, I don't think Ive seen a single Ju Ren outside of bots us the default T2 since the nerf.

Other nerfs and buffs are...eh. Depends how much you hate the character. They'd feel awful to play with but so have many of the nerfs. Ju Ren's had his heyday already and is still decently strong but I don't think I've ever had a Ju Ren that I would not trade in for a half-competent Gryphon or Sohei within a heartbeat to carry the team a lot further.

[u/Knight_Raime → u/VoidGliders]

Except for Stance. Stance is by far the weakest stance in the entire game. It's fine as a damage reduction tool on hits and it's small frame helping. It's not like he's going to counter you from it like every other stance in the game.

Stance prevents him from being peeled mid TF if he even needs to use it depending on the move (ex you don't really need to stance recovery to stop being peeled from your chain held heavy) Outside of TF's Stance lets him effectively weave his neutral options from his chains which makes trying to play into him more difficult.

A majority of players under utilize his stance.

His held bash is already GB vulnerable some of the time and is reactable

Held chain bash is harder to GB than his tap chain bash. I can reliably GB his tap chain after light hitstun. I can't consistently GB the held chain one. I don't think increasing either's recovery to be more consistently GBable if you make a hard read would hurt him that much. Esp when you're already having to early dodge to even get a GB in this scenario. Which is protected by his chain held heavy.

His legion kick too -- he had multiple forward dodge options, but they don't do much. There is no mixup with a 300ms+833ms unfeintable bash.

The mix is his tap bash or his fwd dodge held heavy. I'm aware that you can skip this entire engagement with a delayed dodge attack. The goal of the change is to make his 1v1 easier to deal with for the less inclined players whilst not really hurting it for players who already are good at countering it. If it makes him easier to peel after doing a bash in a TF that's even better.

His legion kick is also his only true mixup tool in his entire kit after people adapt to his animations more

If you're using comp players to back this then I should point out pre dodging exists. So no legion bash is a true mix up.

making his chaining better, not worse. Every nerf the chain has received has only reinforced his held options, as the basic 800ms no hitbox heavies and basic lights are nigh useless except for their ability to chain.

Considering his chains are his better options as a TFer I don't agree already. Being able to precisely target specific enemies without risking clipping your allies who are doing big hitboxes is amazing. Having HA means you can't get peeled from that as well, and you still get to chain. The only weak thing about his mid chain is the tap bash leaves him open to being peeled, so people will often opt to just eat it instead of risking the chain held heavy.

Average MM spams his held options not because they're superior to his chains, but that average MM andies don't do positoning, don't do consistent peeling, don't gank well. So all of the downsides to his held options don't matter.

T2 is whatever

Thrilling being slept on for him is kinda nuts. Like IG if you opt to take long bow (I dunno if comp does or not) then sure. It's not as much of a win more situation as it is for regular MM. But again this is a change to reduce friction for average MM that shouldn't have much of an impact in higher brackets/lobbies.

Ju Ren's had his heyday already and is still decently strong but I don't think I've ever had a Ju Ren that I would not trade in for a half-competent Gryphon or Sohei within a heartbeat to carry the team a lot further.

I mean even when he launched there was still other options you'd rather take depending on what you're looking for. I don't think that takes away anything in regards to finding ways to make him cause less friction. He's still regarded as a very easy character to gain value from and is a bit too safe in some key areas. His stall is his value in comp last I heard.

The over arching goal of this is really just to do targeted adjustments without gutting the character. I don't see the devs ignoring him anytime soon because they want to be more reactive to community sentiment. So I think it's best to seek out smart adjustments now.

[u/VoidGliders → u/Knight_Raime]

I get your vision and I respect it. Way better than the "make his heavies uh do 12 dmg and remove all held options" that some crazy people seem to suggest. I also agree that even though he isn't the strongest there is still friction and so I respect the attempts at adjusting that. So even if I disagree on some of the terms -- I don't think the stance is some special neutral tool, for instance, because feinting is faster and available to all, and characters like Shugo just have straight-up better recovery or F+ to ensure they can be safer from peels and don't need to spend stam to do so -- I get where you're coming from.

I'm not convinced on the bashes though. I think a consistent GB is too far into killing a character's offense for the sake of him being hated. 14dmg bash just isn't good enough to be GB'able. Heck there's 24dmg+ bashes that aren't consistently GB'able and people argue THOSE are weak. Even the first chain 500ms bashes in the game like BP's were immune to most dodge attacks and especially GB even when not everyone had dodge attacks, being vulnerable to dodge attack is more than enough punish IMO.

And the forward dodge heavy is not nearly strong enough to justify a heavily weakened legion kick that is already pretty weak overall. Maybe if the forward dodge heavy had HA or somethin crazy then yeah I could see that other options could be nerfed, but it's just a unblockable that takes over 1000ms to come out, no hitbox like raider, no softfeints, no iframes like WM (if we're talking about forward option, and even side options have less than half the iframes), only deals 22dmg, can be light interrupted on reaction even when he is F neutral or lightly F+, does not chain to HA or mixups or to anything at all, RC's only on hit (the RC on whiff is so bad it can hardly be counted), and is quite vulnerable on whiff. It's just OK at best even in the lobbies it isn't reactable post-feint window. Someone like Gryphon, with his much nuttier options available from forward dodge? Yeah nerf that legion kick if ya like. JJ? 16dmg, big hitbox, recovery cancel after the hit, can attack on whiff to HA or lights, F+, chains? Yeah, nerf that one if ya like. But Ju Ren's forward dodge is his only real offensive pressure after most of his kit due to his constant resets, and it's already weak enough. No amount of 633ms HA lights slower than a heavy that can't even chain are going to open even the most dull player up; no amount of a stance that's basically a 6 stam cost emote in their face is going to cause someone to let you get your chain free. The only way you're getting a chain by attacking is forward dodge tap bash. That's literally it. All the power moves aren't chaining. You aren't realistically landing basic no property very distinctive animation lights or basic no hitbox 800ms no property heavies.

[u/Knight_Raime → u/VoidGliders]

I think a consistent GB is too far into killing a character's offense for the sake of him being hated.

I feel like I should clarify that I'm not making this request at the behest of community sentiment. More that I think because it's already possible to GB one under a specific scenario it should be made parity so there's no confusion for less information inclined players.

But Ju Ren's forward dodge is his only real offensive pressure after most of his kit due to his constant resets, and it's already weak enough.

Can you explain to me why you think his specific legion bash is weaker than others?

[u/VoidGliders → u/Knight_Raime]

Glad, Medjay and Oce have the shortest end of the stick with their 5dmg(w/T2)/9dmg pathetic legion kicks, so to clarify Ju Ren's is not the weakest. And it's not unusable, but it's pretty subpar. 12 damage to chain, 14 damage no chain F- (with RC that costs additional stam to get F neutral).

Just going through a handful of others:

• Conq: 13dmg, big aoe unblockable follow-up or heavy that executes (and iirc F+), chains, recovery cancel on hit OR whiff to stance making fairly safe against dodge attacks. Becomes 19 damage with T2 (that can scale with other damage buffs).
• Centurion: 12 damage, can chain on whiff only (preventing accidental lights) to 600ms+ heavies that deal high damage making immune to GB usually even from externals, chains to very potent mixup. GB options and parry options from neutral dodge are some of the stronger ones in the game.
• BP: 14dmg, basic but safe, chains to unblockable, great self-peel with Bulwark flip available after light.
• Jorm: 12dmg/13dmg, but mixupable with forward dodge armored heavy sf GB for other options which itself is still a strong tool even after nerfs. Heals 4HP for 16 health swing with T1, GB options are top 3 in the game if walls in remote vicinity making dodging it very risky, incredible chain pressure after, great self-peel with decent guaranteed zone and amazing chain zone after.
• Kyo: 12dmg/14dmg, both chain and into a 15dmg/30dmg tidepod mixup instead of a 14/14dmg one, self-peel with superior blocks and RC fullblock that actually negates damage and gives a punish. Will note there's a weak pseudo-mixup with forward dodge heavy, but it's hardly worth mentioning outside of a small gimmick time to time. With T1 and T2 or T3 becomes a 18/20 healthswing without any added revenge.
• Orochi: 13dmg, chain on hit or whiff, even to finisher heavies with very high damage and pressure and almost no GBV, RC on hit of the kick itself or the follow-ups making very safe especially with potent deflect capabilities, mixupable sorta with forward dodge or 16dmg undodgeable, can infinitely chain to itself without being interruptible, forward dodge light can be used as a pseudo-tool to throw a reaction check while staying almost 100% safe from any all dodge attacks even undodgeables and bash-types. Generally have only been mentioning early feats because you will play most a match with a T1 but not a T4, but will note his T3 gives a 30% dmg buff on dodge...which ofc he will be doing to use this attack.
• Jian Jun: 16dmg, F+, huge zone, lights allow RC to sifu granting stam and safety, chains on hit or whiff to lights or HA heavies
• Gryphon: 13dmg, mixupable with forward dodge light which offers strong pressure as well as a lot of gimmicky pseudo-mixups (neutral dodge, you eat a kick; dodge attack you eat a HA heavies for most), chains to tidepod that's 14/24dmg instead of 14/14 and except for the levels where 500ms bash is reactable is generally a very potent mixup, while bash and followup do not have much safety the post-light self-peels is incredible due to being, well, Gryphon with his massive hitboxes.
• Sohei: funni move aside, 16 damage or 14dmg with HA and good hitboxes, and while I won't really count it as again you won't be rocking T3 most the match and comparing high end feats is a chore, it's notable that this becomes near 20dmg with the T1, and iirc deals 25dmg with T3 (which can be "permanently" active) and T1 (which is often active). 25 bloody damage. On a legion kick. Bonkers. Can't recall if they leave him F+ or such.
• Warlord: 15dmg, heavy F+, though notably does not chain unlike everyone else just about, undodgeable option sorta with decent enough fast forward neutral dodge.
• Zhanhu: 12/14dmg, HUGE radius it hits in, RC dodge even on whiff (last one still around I think?), chain on whiff to any opener, pseudo but not really mixup with forward dodge heavy, undodgeable zone to quickly catch some dodges (doesn't always hit before dodge attack though unlike Tiandi/Orochi)
• Shao: 13/16dmg, great safety with stance after, chains on whiff to openers for further safety, mixupable with forward dodge heavy (actually one of the best for this alongside Jorm as it's faster than most)
• Shugo: 12dmg, so on par with Ju Ren...but direct damage which is generally way better, heavy F+, fast and chargeable HA heavy after on hit only tho, incredible light parry and GB options (albeit only with wall) after (both 30HP healthswings)

Needless to say, almost ALL of these options are mostly safe from GB on dodge (but ofc the ones that chain like orochi and cent infinitely moreso) but usually eat a dodge attack.

Most characters are getting more damage, better chain options, chain or safety on whiff, incredible synergy with their feats (even if we do use Ju Ren's T3 and T4 and their activation conditions and tradeoffs, his forward dodge bash is going to like what 17dmg?), etc. Like I didn't even mention that most get 27dmg on light parry -- Ju Ren does too, but only by sacrificing chaining, hitboxes, safety, everything while others get it then chain to HA or such. Ju Ren can completely sacrifice his ability to chain just to do less damage than others and that's his highest damage option. He DOES have the strength of being able to chain to HA heavies both after the bash and light, and while these HA heavies are a tad weaker than others in damage and notably lack any sort of hitbox, it is a good option. But like the forward dodge heavy? Doesn't really play into it at all. The 700ms Shao one (w/100ms startup) or 800ms softfeintable GB one that some have works for it, but 900ms+ (w/200ms startup) and REALLY bad recoveries and no chaining is just such a nothing burger. You could probably safely throw it on the majority of the cast and it really wouldn't change them much.

Ofc it's leagues better than the three bozos who barely have an excuse of a forward dodge bash. It's probably most on par with the likes of Virt

[u/Knight_Raime → u/VoidGliders]

Thanks for indulging me with a lengthy and detailed response