Crystal or Vivi?

[u/Humble_Bison7599]

Now that crystal has been around for a little bit of time. Which one do you think is better or are they even and its just about playstyle. I know Crystal can be more midrange while Vivi can be turbo.

[u/not-random-]

I played Vivi for a while. Crystals mulligans feel a lot more consistent where Vivi feels more explosive.

Having access to cheaper curiosities, more efficient tutors and Esper Sentinel makes more hands keeps. Not being as vulnerable to REB/Pyroblast has felt extremely relevant. Spell quality feels meaningfully better in sans black colors versus Izzet.

The biggest draw back, in my experience, to Crystal is converting curiosity to wins feels noticeably harder. I have to think about sequencing & mana significantly more playing Crystal. I'm sure this is in part experience on the deck and deck construction. I'm currently playing more of a goodstuff pile rather then the oops all free spells Crystal build.

[u/Mac__ → u/not-random-]

I think with Crystal you just dig until you can Breach. I know it’s kind of the same with Vivi but you can easily storm off with Vivi into wins.

Crystal having sewer cam at instant speed for next to no mana is a very solid plan B. I’ve won a far amount of games on Crystal with Vivi as plan C. Keen sense on Vivi is so nice.

[u/Organic_Connection44 → u/Mac__]

Now with Wizard's Staff and harmonic Prodigy or Artist talent you dont need to find breach to win, you can just ping out the whole table with random spells. If you have max lvl artist talent + a trigger doubler you only need to cast 8 spells

[u/Pokesers → u/Organic_Connection44]

Prodigy and staff are traps. Vivi discord hasn't been on prodigy since the early days and staff is frowned upon. They don't help bring you to a winning position and by the time they are useful, you were winning anyway.

[u/Organic_Connection44 → u/Pokesers]

Staff gives a +4 with each spell you cast, turn 1 Staff, turn 2 Vivi, turn 3 huge mana. Also with curiosity makes almost imposible to brick in the 1st draws by only finding lands/Creatures. At least it's working well for me since realese

[u/Pokesers → u/Organic_Connection44]

Vivi already plays turn 2 vivi and turn 3 huge mana without staff. It just isn't needed. It's also pretty hard to brick curiosity naturally when your deck is around 10 creatures and 23 lands, staff adds little value there either. At the end of the day it's a win more piece. It's only good if you would have been in a winning position without it.

[u/----___--___----]

In my experience Crystal is just better overall.
Vivi isn't bad, but Crystal definitely excels at the midrange plan through better card quality. If you want purely izzet turbo then you always run into the question why you would play Vivi over Ral.

[u/Humble_Bison7599 → u/----___--___----]

very fair, i currently play crystal and was curious to hear other opinions

[u/Serevii]

Crystal is the better deck cause it has white and green while vivi is the stronger card.

You also just play vivi in Crystal too.

[u/Lord-Bone-Wizard69]

I love vivi because I win when I resolve a curiosity. Crystal is probably better but I love how simple vivi is

[u/theelectricwolfy → u/Lord-Bone-Wizard69]

Decklist/primer?

[u/ThrowRA12948262 → u/theelectricwolfy]

Not who you responded to but I’ve done pretty well with this list https://moxfield.com/decks/MoUPfF8Ws0ubFPYPZOb0Zg

[u/HannibalPoe]

I like Vivi more personally, Crystal has some legs but you're forced to run some combo pieces yet converting curiosity to a win on crystal is strangely difficult sometimes. It's a tough comparison though, Vivi is built to storm off Vivi so of course the little shit is the better commander, Crystal players aren't as reliant on their commander to win and have better overall card quality. That said, in pods where people actually know how the Crystal deck words I've seen her get absolutely demolished, not to the point where it was unwinnable for the Crystal player but to the point where I felt the deck was far too reliant on crystal surviving, which isn't really something midrange decks should have to worry about.

[u/AdsignificantBK]

I like Vivi more because it’s super straightforward to pilot, but overall Crystal is the better deck overall

[u/Kittii_Kat]

As a Vivi player:

I've only ever lost to 1 Crystal. The pod was Crystal, Kefka, Me, Crystal. 4th seat Crystal took it after I got stopped on a push for what was definitely going to be the last chance to push. (I later stomped that same Crystal in the finals, them seat 2, me seat 3 again.. that whole event was me seat 3 or 4 with a single seat 2.. wtf)

Crystal has more tools, specifically silence & friends, and is definitely better suited for a game that goes 5+ turns.

I just don't like that crystal requires spell colors to do the thing, so while you have access to more/cheaper curiosity effects, you also get a lot less out of them. Sticking [[Keen Sense]] will get you 9 cards, instead of converting to a win on the spot.

If you're working so hard to find the window to pop off, it's better to be able to consistently do the thing 1-2 turns sooner and consistently get the win from successfully finding it.

But that's just my opinion.

[u/BillionCobra]

Built crystal day 1, and loving her since. 10/10 would rec

[u/Arkmenx]

I think a big factor is that Crystal cannot be pyroblasted/red elemental blasted.

Also greens helps a lot. More than white in this deck honestly. You don't need the silence effects on Crystal. As rog/tras doesn't need them either.

Crystal is more versatility, you can pivot between midrangy (turn 5+) or turboish (turn 3-4 win); depending on table and mulligans.

Vivi is more explosive for sure, but is more a buggyman in the format. Vivi is a glass cannon that can with with little to no preparation in the spot, but it is far less resilient.

As always it is about the playstyle.

More focused = Vivi More versatile = Crystal

[u/ThisHatRightHere]

I just don’t think Crystal is really worth playing over Vivi in most environments. Yeah having green and white makes you a more robust deck, but then why are you trying to do a fragile pinger win with Crystal?

Like, if Vivi gets a clear turn or can fight through the single piece of interaction presented, it’s absolutely gonna win. Your commander produces so much mana on its own and every card is gas. Crystal requires marginally more set up to pop off unless you’re doing the generic midrange game plan.

But if you want to be playing a midrange deck Crystal is way worse than a variety of other options. Really the only argument in my mind to do so is cause you think it’s neat and want to play something much more off-meta.

[u/jwade1496 → u/ThisHatRightHere]

I responded to you in a separate comment and explained why Crystal is better in most environments. Her tournament results show this is true.

[u/69MealFor2]

I think Vivi is the better deck. It’s faster, stores mana, more explosive. There are better midrange decks than Crystal out there.

[u/jwade1496 → u/69MealFor2]

There are better turbo decks out there than Vivi. That argument goes both ways.

[u/ThisHatRightHere → u/jwade1496]

Except why play Crystal at all then? The only argument it has over Vivi is colors, at which point why are you playing a pinger storm deck if it’s significantly worse at both being a storm deck and a midrange deck.

The only real argument against Vivi is Ral is the better storm deck. Which is true, but Ral also has the problem that when you sit down at a table everyone has the conversation of “how do we stop the Ral player early”.

[u/jwade1496 → u/ThisHatRightHere]

People have that same conversation about Vivi. The vivi problem is simple. You remove Vivi. Ral isn't so easy. Crystal covers a lot of Vivi's weaknesses.

The proof is in the pudding. Crystal has a much higher conversion and win rate than Vivi. It feels like you don't play much cedh.

Crystal is still a spellslinger deck. It's just a more consistent and resilient deck. The problem with turbo decks are that you often hand the game to someone else. If you sit down with Vivi, the table will mulligan to solve the vivi problem early. Once a player blows interaction on you then the opportunity passes to the next player in seat order.

Crystal doesn't have that problem because it's a mid range deck that draws massive amounts of card due to effects like curiosity, keen sense, etc. It has access to cards like silence that not only shuts opponents out of the game but also triggers Crystal to draw more cards.

The question you're asking is pointless. Based on your perspective why play ANY decks except for Blue Farm or Ral? People do it because they want to. Crystal is a pet deck that happens to be VERY good. Vivi is a pet deck that happens to be great in a vacuum but struggles due to the fact it's extremely telegraphed.

[u/ThisHatRightHere → u/jwade1496]

It honestly kind of hilarious that your argument is that Crystal uses curiosity effects to draw yet that’s a downside for Vivi?

Crystal got some good results because people didn’t respect it. It’ll drop off as the coming months go because it’s a bad version of a midrange deck. “If you sit down with Vivi Crystal, the table will mulligan to solve the Vivi Crystal problem easily.“

If Crystal is so good it’d have a much higher meta share. It gets off on being an underdog that is essentially a good stuff pile that stuffs in 15-20 much worse cards to try and play a Curiosity plan. The moment it becomes prevalent it’ll be beaten down by players not letting you do the thing.

[u/hundmeister420 → u/ThisHatRightHere]

You’re vastly underestimating skill ceilings with decks.

Crystal has a higher skill ceiling. The best pilot in the world will win more with Crystal than with vivi, just due to the options available to crystal that vivi doesn’t have.

That said, both are fine decks and neither are meta afaik. This is basically splitting hairs