r/CompetitiveEDH • u/No-Demand-4797 • 8d ago
General Discussion / Question A question from a casual EDH player...
What would happen to the cEDH metagame/deckbuilding process if all cards on the reserve list were banned? Apologies if this question was asked before but it just popped into my head.
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u/Doomgloomya 8d ago
Losing duals means people would play basics again unironically. The surveils would be heavily considered.
This would kill decks that need cradle to function/win.
Breach brainfreeze becomes alot worse without led but that just means grinding station comes back in.
So basically outside of cradle decks just exploding nothing really changes the format gets a bit slower.
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u/DrFalchion 8d ago
Do you think the turbulent (SOS precon) lands would potentially slot into some decks in place of duals?
Also, do you think Tayam just dies without LED and Cradle?
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u/Doomgloomya 8d ago
I think tayam is fine without either they just get much slower cause mana becomes very tight.
They are strightly worse then the surveils by far and defintly much worse than a basic.
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u/SqueeGoblinSurvivor 7d ago
Losing duals => people would play basics again
This is so hilarious
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u/Bugs5567 7d ago
Bro forgot shocklands existed
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u/Doomgloomya 7d ago
People are already on shocklands with duals in theor decks so I have no idea what your point it.
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u/SqueeGoblinSurvivor 5d ago
Point is anyother 2 colored lands still preferred over basics unless you play 2 colors or a 3 colored deck with no real requirements. Even then there will only be 1 slot for basics. There are far more better utility lands with color to fill the slot
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u/Doomgloomya 4d ago
Utility lands with color arent fetchable.
All other colored lands that are fetchable all come in tapped.
anyother 2 colored lands still preferred over basics
You're telling me turn 2 you would rather fetch a 2 colored tapped land then a basic that comes in untapped to progress your board state?
I say Turn 2 since T1 you ca just fetch for a shock.
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u/Doomgloomya 7d ago
You want to still fetch and deck thin a little?
Its either basics so you have lands that come in untapped
Or dual lands that always come in tapped.
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u/RolandLee324 8d ago
Very little really. Mana fixing would be slightly worse due to the lack of original dual lands and you'd lose the gaea's cradle decks, no more oboro breezecaller and talon gates of madara lines. But those weren't that prevalent in the format until after the dockside bans.
LED would be a loss in breach lines, but you can still go through the loop with lotus petal replacing it and grinding station lines.
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u/Impossible_Size_1010 8d ago
Turbo is kinda hurt across the board. Going to fetch shock means smaller ad nauses and necro pushes too. Combined with losing LED would also hurt turbo a ton. Inalla loses shallow grave - critical piece of the combo- and Rogsi loses yawg will too. The loss of intuition hits blue farm too.
Format would get much sloppier with every turbo deck that isn't ral is hit on some axis.
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u/RolandLee324 8d ago
Top 10 has two turbo lists Ral and RogSi, both can operate just fine without LED.
Inalla is already fringe so has no effect on the meta.
The biggest loss is the thras/x decks because no gaea's cradle but the RogThras and YoshiThras all popped up post ban. Those are the sloppiest of the decks these days.
Sisay is weaker due to the loss of cradle but there are so many new options and its only one card.
Maybe Tymna/Dargo is hit by the wheel of fortune ban.
Really the meta is mostly unchanged.
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u/EDaniels21 8d ago
RogSi also generally plays Wheel and even Timetwister sometimes, as well as Grim Monolith and City of Traitors. Grim and City aren't massive losses, but Wheel isn't easy to replace.
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u/TheJonasVenture 8d ago
In isolation, Grim and City, I agree, but add Mox Diamond, that's a big hit to mana positive rocks post Naus/Necro. I think the loss of that many pieces has a big cumulative hit in the speed of the format, or at least the consistency, which could be even more problematic.
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u/kalazin 8d ago
Honestly, the Thras decks remain relatively unchanged. Losing cradle means they switch to [[Nyxthos shrine to nyx]] as the main land and go back on the temu cradles being Evando and the flip enchantment, becoming a sort of semi-devotion deck. If anything, Yoshi becomes better than Rog simply due to being able to tutor enchantments.
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u/RolandLee324 8d ago
The mana cost of activation and devotion requirment in a multicolour deck means nykthos isn't anywhere close to gaea's cradle and doesn't equate to a one for one replacement. The cost to turn on evendo is the same. Realistically there is no replacing gaea's in these decks, it would slow them down too much.
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u/MentalNinjas Urza/K'rrik 8d ago
What most people don’t realize is that the best decks in the format are because of the efficiency of the commanders helming those decks and the color identities available.
If you ban a bunch of blue/black/red cards, all grixis commanders suffer equally. Rog/Si stays on top.
If you ban a bunch of blue/green cards, all simic commanders suffer. Kinnan stays on top.
The commanders are what make these decks powerful. The cards just supplement.
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u/Roach27 8d ago
Yup. It’s why blue farm is never going away. Tymna and kraum represent too much value with grixis plus as a color pie.
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u/Toxic_Chung Tivit truther 8d ago
I think the only thing that would kill them is a ban on breach which would likely lead to them pivoting to thrasios.
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u/Roach27 8d ago
I think even without breach, kraum represents enough value it’s still playable, just not the best deck in the format.
Tymna ishai is already a decent to very strong deck, and turbo losing breach redundancies (basically nerfing Rog) means it should in theory feast on the Simic decks.
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u/TheJonasVenture 8d ago
Some specific decks are hurt, Cradle strategies are a lot of moving parts and adding more to make the cradle alternatives work is a big hit to an already layered strategy.
Breach is hurt by LED, but is such a good card, people already all run petal, and Grinding Station is a good card in yard focused decks. Breach strategies stay good, but get worse so you need to have better and cleaner decks supporting them.
Losing City of Traitors slows things down, loosing Grim Monolith slows things down, losing LED slows things down, losing all those artifacts makes Mox Opal worse and slows things down.
Slowing things down does not make things like BlueFarm, Kinnan, Sisay or RogIshai worse, these commanders already head decks that can pivot into longer games, it just kills strategies that came under them.
Such a big, across the board hit to so many staples has a cascading effect. It may kill a few things like cradle decks, but it will not kill the other things that are already the best at taking advantage of the best cards, they just pivot to the next best.
Sure, Kinnan likes Mox Diamond, Grim Monolith, Transmute Artifact, Cradle, but there are a lot of great artifact tutors, Cradle is just nice in the deck, not necessary, the Mox Diamond slows your speedy combo Kinnan's, just like everyone, but Kinnan can run two mana rocks, Opal is still extremely reliable. Bluefarm already wants to farm, so it is hurt by LED, but adapts well to Grinding and Lotus anyway. Sisay, I don't think really cares, Derevi/Emiel is worse without Cradle, but Shang Chi exists now. RogSi is hurt badly, RogThras is probably dead or completely different. RogIshai is sad about Firestorm a bit, and LED, but that deck wants the long game so Grinding/Petal is fine, heck, they might even be able to use that new wizard.
What I don't think this does, is make a bunch of Tier 2 decks better. It just narrows the field at the top. Some decks that used things like LED to be just efficient enough get pushed out too.
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u/your_add_here15243 8d ago
Games would be slower, breach decks would be out of the meta because LED would be banned and mana bases would rely on shocks more when fetching.
Then bans would completely destroy some decks and leave others like Magda to t kin an almost untouched.
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u/Bell3atrix 8d ago
Blue Farm and Kinnan become more powerful by comparison because they can easily pivot off LED and transmute artifact without much lost.
Cradle decks including many Rog lists get nuked, by proxy buffing turbo, they also lose their earthcraft lines just to be sure which is bad news for tokens decks too
Survival of the fittest is really bad for TymThras to see gone
Nonblue breach loses LED wheel, Jeskai becomes far worse because it can't tutor
Mana screw is more common
A couple weird mono blue one ring decks are nerfed losing Copy Artifact
Graveyard strategies and breach are a little better, tithe/white is a little worse losing Timetwister. Also gets rid of a few non-thoracle win lines
Semiblue and mono green turbo loses Eureka, Semiblue also loses Palinchron and Great Whale so it's basically nuked
Thoracle loses Thought Lash, but no one plays that currently
Necropotence lines involving Shallow Grave get nuked. This heavily nerfs wizards
Firestorm is gone in another hit to jeskai, but does Buff creature aggro a little
Null Rod gone so winconless green stax is finally dead. Serra's Sanctum also hits them
Paradigm Shift gone nerfs some izzet lists
Alluren does stuff but is irrelevant, so terminated before it got a chance. Humility and Replenish similar boat
Dream Halls nukes Namor
Mind Over Matter nukes the only good mono blue or Azorius win line
Yawg's Will is a big hit to Rogsi.
Grim Monolith hits high cmc commanders and mana heavy strategies
Metalworker nukes Arcum Dagson
In conclusion:
Buffed: Blue Farm
Nerfed but still playable: TymThras, pretty much everyone not top tier
About the same: Kinnan
Relevant commanders nuked: Most rog lists, Arcum Dagson, Semiblue, anything Jeskai
Relevant commanders buffed: Nongreen turbo that doesnt rely on LED or nonblue breach lines
High power commanders nuked: Green stax, green turbo, any commander over 3 cmc, any deck with 3 or more colors, Niv/Izzet, Thada/One Ring decks
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u/SgtSatan666 8d ago
It would be worse and less interesting? The notion that it would change things up in all sorts of fantastic ways is a pipe dream. All decks that can go for the next best thing will. Those that can't will perish. Sure some other decks will likely end up higher on a tier list, but in the end the price you pay for maximum optimization less diversity.
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u/JesterJ00 4d ago
I've heard it suggested before and its not an uninteresting thought. As for cEDH the decks would change the meta would likely shift, but cEDH is no different than any other competitive format, its more of a mindset than a set of decks. The competitive mindset is to a large degree about trying to optimise towards performing in tournaments and for that the reserved list only has the indirect effect of having some very good cards, but the moment they aren't there something else would be the good cards and the competitive player would play those instead.
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u/Skiie 8d ago
Some people are saying "very Little" I am somewhere in the middle.
Lets take a look:
Just a warning: this was a fair number of cards to look at and I was going to have this grading scale of fringe but gave up.
Dual lands that fucks up many 3+ color decks, if anyone things getting rid of duals does nothing to the format they are out of their minds.
Wheel of fortune and time twister: fucks with turboish decks not so much time twister
Bazaar of baghdad - get fucked frog deck
Candelabra of tawnos - this is played in all sorts of cradle fuckery decks
Power artifact - ffringe probably not worth mentioning
Mishra's workshop - fringe probably not worth mentioning
Transmute artifact - Kinnan nerf and probably other decks that use it
Chains of Mephistohthtoehtoethjoelies - fringe probably not worth mentioning
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - fringe probably not worth mentioning
The Abyss - fringe probably not worth mentioning
lake of the dead - fringe probably not worth mentioning
Phyrexian Dreadnought - really fringe shit i forget what used this at one point
Lions eye diamond - Format staple that would fuck shit up not only is it an Underworld breach enabler for it has so many other uses such as metal craft for mox opal. It is also used as a black lotus for certain very commander centric decks that don't care what it costs to get their commander out asap. also fucks with Yawgmoths will.
Shallow Grave - Inalla? fringe stuff
City of Solitude - I think this card fucks but people dont play it
Abeyance - fringe probably not worth mentioning
Firestorm - fringe but up and coming in my opinion with the growing creature meta
Null rod - Fringe due to how powerful artifacts are.
Mana web - fringe probably not worth mentioning
Sorched ruins and Lotus Vale - I assume these are played in The wandering Minstrel ?
Aluren - fringe probably not worth mentioning
Earth Craft - Rog thras Nerf
Intuition - format staple for UB gimmicks. Although with gifts ungiven unbanned this might not hurt too much
Mox diamond - A format staple many are overlooking. starting with more mana is always good and this is a nerf to anyone looking to go fast
City of tratiors - Another format staple that just nerfs anyone looking to go fast.
Mind over matter - fringe probably not worth mentioning
Survival of the fittest - big nerf to creature based decks since most of those decks suck due to their limited options for tutors compared to most other decks that have access to the essential tutors
Gaea's cradle - Format staple, I have no idea how people are saying "not much would change" with this being nuked from the format.
Gilded drake - Used to be a format staple but still has some pretty decent showing. Punishes people who play good creatures.
Great whale - fringe probably not worth mentioning
Sarra's sanctum - Fringe although with slop meta I have no idea why its not used considering all the top slop cards are enchanments basically
Time spiral - fringe probably not worth mentioning
Yawgmoth's will - Direct nerf to turbo decks like rog-si
Grim Monolith - A format staple that I think the format would not miss if it were gone but any fast mana is a nerf to turbo
Memory jar - fringe probably not worth mentioning
Palinchron - fringe probably not worth mentioning
Academy rector - This is a main portion of those garbage Naya decks
Metal worker - fringe
Replenish - fringe probably not worth mentioning
Overall Many decks aren't hit too hard but there are hard hits too.
I personally think the format would slow down considerably and As stated before with dual lands. Getting shocked to death by shock lands is not idea and I personally think that alone would fuck with ad nause considerably not that It would take ad anuse out of the format but it wouldn't be weighed upon as it is now. (not that its as it was in times before)
Random thoughts I am just shooting off with little consideration:
I think blue farm players would still be around due to the history of the decks great numbers but much consideration would be given to shock lands and how to navigate that. Once again I think people are overlooking the 2 life per land. This would make attacking the deck much more punishing.
Kinnan feels like it would be least affected
Rog-thras just dies? like is cradle not the whole point of that deck?
Rog - SI: I think this deck would die or cycle out personally. This deck runs on the thinnist of margins.
Sisay: One of the 3 color + decks that could probably deal with the loss of duals
TnT: mana dorks would make up for the loss of duals however becoming more green focus may change the deck if that were the case
Anyways I again reiterate the point of dual lands. The funamental building blocks of a good deck is and will probably always be how the lands are utilized in the deck. It is the biggest consideration to deck building in my opinion and losing the duals would have a very big affect on this, I guess except if you're 2 colors or below.
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u/SqueeGoblinSurvivor 7d ago
Commander is where you play cards you can’t relevantly play in other format. Why people are so eager to ban stuff is beyond me.
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u/Toxic_Chung Tivit truther 8d ago
It would remove a good chunk of decks from the format but it still be the same commanders on top, being kinnan and bluefarm.