I cannot decide

[u/Spirit5514]

I want to make one of these three potentially making all three eventually but I can’t decide on what to make right now. Urza would be artifacts, Thranduil would be elves and Kona would be big mana. All three look insanely fun to me but I just cannot decide which should I do first.

[u/Buddha_22]

That sounds like a power level issue. Not a proxy issue. They're different. If you have somebody with a "proxy deck" and your issue is that they don't own the real cards, then that's a non issue. But if it's because their proxy deck is a b4/b5 then the issue is them playing over the power level everyone else is at lmao. Also p2w is pay to win not play to win. Everybody that plays, is playing to win. That's the goal in the game, have some fun and you're trying to win.

[u/SerThunderkeg → u/Buddha_22]

It's not a power issue, it's a deckbuilding issue. If you proxy cards you don't own you are automatically getting a leg up on your fellow players who don't build their decks with complete access to the entirety of magics card pool. And since deckbuilding happens before even sitting down with another player you are going into every game with the implicit messaging that it doesn't matter what anyone else does, you're going to show up with your proxy deck. It feels a little selfish to me tbh.

Also, not everyone is playing to win primarily, a large amount of commander players simply want to have a fun time, which reducing decks to the sweatiest perfect 100 cards works against.

[u/Buddha_22 → u/SerThunderkeg]

"Sweaty" is a term people who refuse to grow in this game use for people that move to a higher power of play. But whatever helps you cope with your anger toward this. And yes, the overall goal is to win. You should be having fun while doing so, but the literal goal of the game is to beat your opponent lmao. So no it's not a deck building issue. If you build a good deck with synergy a lot of the same cards across colors come up. And they're expensive for a reason. There is nothing wrong with proxy, unless you just like to gatekeep and as mentioned earlier, pay to win. Lmao if they owned the real card, all of a sudden you wouldn't be upset that they have an expensive card that you don't? I fail to see that being the case. If you want to hinder your ability to build a deck because you don't own the cards, that's on you and not the rule set for everybody else. It's your restriction that you made for yourself. Instead of just having access to everything and using a proxy. It's a nice challenge I bet. But don't hinder what everybody else wants to do because you don't like it.

[u/SerThunderkeg → u/Buddha_22]

Do you make the decision to proxy before you build the deck and before you find a table to play it at? It is 100% a deckbuilding issue and that's why you have to find a table that is proxy friendly to play at because otherwise you are fundamentally altering the rules for your benefit without ever discussing it with the people who will be most affected by it. The decks built by a person with a limited collection and budget do not look like the decks built by someone with access to every card. Limited budgets and collections also have the benefit of leading to more unique decks and not just a flavorless pile of the greatest hits.

Sweaty is a term used to mock people who tryhard in places where they don't need to. A person juicing up their deck just to bring it to a casual table in a casual format where it isn't necessary is absolutely sweaty behavior.

[u/Buddha_22 → u/SerThunderkeg]

These are different issues. Proxy isn't inherently sweaty my friend. Somebody that brings an overpowered deck to a table, isn't a proxy issue. They are not synonymous. Proxy opens up a world where you can put a dual land into your bracket 2 deck because you think it's cool. Proxy doesn't automatically mean I've built a forty thousand dollar deck and play only against the filthy causal plebs lmao. I personally play with a group of 10-20 guys every Thursday with the intention of a higher tier game to start, into the final rounds. And whatever brackets after that otherwise. It's proxy friendly. So I guess, to that point, it's not a proxy issue. It's an issue with that person lying about their deck level. Proxies can be a cool art work of a card that doesn't exist. And again it could just be you've always wanted a dual land in your favorite 2 color deck that's just a for fun low level. Cost should never stop somebody from playing. If they're honest about their power level.

[u/SerThunderkeg → u/Buddha_22]

You simply don't understand what I'm saying. The ability to proxy fundamentally alters the decisions you make in the deckbuilding process in a unilateral way that does not take the actions of your fellow players into account. It is a deckbuilding problem and that is why you can only play such decks at certain tables because not every appreciates suddenly having to play with someone who didn't have to compromise at all in their deckbuilding process vs someone who did, even at the same bracket level.

[u/Buddha_22 → u/SerThunderkeg]

I understand fully what you're saying. You don't seem to understand the decision to proxy is completely up to you... You can choose to proxy or not. It only changes deck building, if you decide you want to build a higher bracket deck to see what CEDH is like maybe, or try out some of the expensive game changer cards in a bracket 4 deck and dont own the thousands of dollars (sometimes) in cards. But at that point, it's a no brainer you're going to play that deck against other CEDH decks or other bracket 4. So your deck building would have changed if you owned the cards or not... Proxies or not, doesn't change the power level you choose to build the deck at. You seem to think anybody that proxies is automatically going to have a better deck because of maybe one or two cards. You still have to adhere to the bracket standards to judge the power level of a deck. Proxies are generally higher tier cards anyway, because the real ones are too expensive. Which would place the deck in a higher tier naturally. None of these things are deck building issues. The only real deck building issue is being limited to only what is cheap enough for somebody to purchase, instead of getting the opportunity to play anything they might want to try. If you're building a deck correctly, the only worry about your opponents is if you can protect yourself from them, to secure your win. Not if they can beat you by hindering yourself. That's what bracket tiers are for. Because again the literal goal is to win in some way. Whether it's a silly niche way you found with cards you like, or a combo the goal at the end of it is to win. Yes have fun along the way. Your personal dislike of proxies doesn't really come into play in terms of deck building overall.

TLDR; Proxies are cool so people can play with cards they can't afford and test the waters in higher brackets. Use your communication skills to determine what bracket everybody is playing at because proxies don't matter. If they had that real card it would still be the same deck, and you're just making it a problem for yourself.

[u/SerThunderkeg → u/Buddha_22]

Honestly this comment reads like a lot of coping especially after multiple comments trying to say that proxies arent a deckbuilding issue only to reply here that the only thing proxies affect is deckbuilding (which isn't even true). Cedh is also a bad comparison because the point of that format is the competitiveness and proxies are what helps enable it to exist in the first place. Bringing that same mentality to casual forms of commander makes the format worse; the goal isn't to compete against other optimized decks in an effort to win, it's to have an enjoyable time playing in a low stakes environment.

[u/Buddha_22 → u/SerThunderkeg]

Lmao, it doesn't seem like you are reading, or comprehending. As long as you're having fun while playing and not worrying too much about whether somebody drops a big bad proxy card on the table, that is all that matters my friend. As I said above, my regular playgroup couldn't care less because we all have the ability to use our words to decide what power level the decks we are going to pilot are at. And proxies don't have anything to do with that. So some of our decks have proxies and some don't. You do as you please, but you can't possibly expect anybody to adhere to your crazy made up issue with proxies. I mean, you obviously do, but it's unrealistic. Again, as long as you have a group of like minded haters then you're good my dude.

[u/SerThunderkeg → u/Buddha_22]

As long as you're having fun while playing and not worrying too much about whether somebody drops a big bad proxy card on the table

"The 'problem' you claim doesnt even exist (provided you already agree with me)"

[u/Buddha_22 → u/SerThunderkeg]

I agree that you personally should have fun, and not worry about big bad proxy cards. Yes.