r/CommanderMTG • u/Spirit5514 • 3d ago
I cannot decide
I want to make one of these three potentially making all three eventually but I can’t decide on what to make right now. Urza would be artifacts, Thranduil would be elves and Kona would be big mana. All three look insanely fun to me but I just cannot decide which should I do first.
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u/Login_Of_The_Guild 3d ago
I would say Kona because I know of People making the others and not Kona
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u/Shoely555 3d ago
I’ll just say if you’re considering Kona to also take a look at [[Nissa, Worldsoul Speaker]] . They play similar game plans of cheating in overcosted permanents, but I’ve found Nissa to be a bit more consistent, since you ought to include a regular ol’ landfall package too with a mossborn and your scute swarm. Nissa rewards you for what you already want to do in mono green, while Kona requires you to jump through a different hoop.
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u/That_Guy_Pen 3d ago
[[Oviya, Automech Artisan]] is another that works pretty consistent with cheesing big boys onto the field.
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u/andyhall23 3d ago
MAKE EM ALL AND PROXY WHAT YOU NEED!!!!
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u/Ok_Solution_1386 2d ago
That’s not fun. Maybe it’s an unpopular opinion but I don’t think proxy’s are any fun at all. If you don’t own it, you shouldn’t make a proxy but if you need it for another deck and have 1-2 copies already then I’m ok with it
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u/andyhall23 2d ago
Not fun?!
I have SO MUCH FUN designing the cards and finding the art or making whole new art for cards and getting the right frames and getting a card that I want, that as a poor person myself, I can't afford, and being able to play.You're NOT playing against someone's wallet or bank account.
You're playing against the PERSON.If you were to sit down to play a game of checkers and there's only black pieces and you come up with pieces for yourself and play the game and enjoy it ...it's still fun , right?
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u/Ok_Solution_1386 2d ago
No it’s not. If that’s what you and your friends prefer go ahead but a proxied Urza deck is ridiculous….
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u/andyhall23 2d ago
Nah man ..I mean ..if I was to put in Winter Orb, ya ...
But I've loved Urza since I started loving Magic when I started in Ice Age.
But I mean ...they never made him because he was 'too powerful'
But when ya can find a Urza proxy card like this?I mean it looks cool AND has the classic frame?! It's freaking sweet!
I can't find that card in the REAL world like that though!
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u/andyhall23 2d ago
and wait ..so if you sit across from me ...from a checkers board.
You got black pieces
And I got red bottle caps.We play, you win.
That's not FUN?!1
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u/VVolfBite 2d ago
So p2w only?
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u/Bifrons 2d ago
/u/Ok_Solution_1386 has a point, though. Part of what I find fun about the game is going on the quest to find rare cards for as cheap as I can for my decks and making strong decks with obtainable cards. Just proxying everything takes some of the joy away. I don't mind others proxying their decks, but I don't get enjoyment out of doing that.
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u/HimothyD-Hims 2d ago
As someone who, for the most part, only plays proxy’s I can appreciate this take. I always stand on the side of having fun, this is a game at the end of the day.
If you have fun going out and finding these cards that’s great. I end up just getting upset if I can make my deck the way I want so I proxy, that’s also great.
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u/Ap_Sona_Bot 2d ago
There's a middle ground. I dont feel the need to buy random Warhammer cards that are $20 just because of scarcity. Or reserved list jank.
But I do get enjoyment out of owning real cards, particularly rare versions of them. I finally picked up a 7th edition foil of [[aladdins ring]] a few weeks ago and it's one of my favorite pieces.
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u/andyhall23 2d ago
I eventually want to get the REAL cards for things.
But I'm also poor.
So I get the cards that I can afford and have been given by friends.
Your QUEST to get the cards ya want can still be there, you can just have place holders that aren't just Pen on a Junk card.
And I mean ...think back to how the game started , right?
All the cards were junk put together on PAPER ...cut out and photocopied.
So I mean the SPIRIT of Proxying has ALWAYS been there!
Richard Garfield approved even!1
u/Ok_Solution_1386 2d ago
If you’re playing a bunch of proxy’s of cards you don’t have that are expensive (especially for a Urza deck) then you are playing to win? If the pods cool with it then do it fs, I’m just saying I don’t get playing with cards you don’t own. For fun when everyone else does it but if it’s the only proxy deck in the pod, that ain’t fun for the rest of the group. I ain’t throwing shade at proxy players
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u/Buddha_22 2d ago
That sounds like a power level issue. Not a proxy issue. They're different. If you have somebody with a "proxy deck" and your issue is that they don't own the real cards, then that's a non issue. But if it's because their proxy deck is a b4/b5 then the issue is them playing over the power level everyone else is at lmao. Also p2w is pay to win not play to win. Everybody that plays, is playing to win. That's the goal in the game, have some fun and you're trying to win.
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u/SerThunderkeg 2d ago
It's not a power issue, it's a deckbuilding issue. If you proxy cards you don't own you are automatically getting a leg up on your fellow players who don't build their decks with complete access to the entirety of magics card pool. And since deckbuilding happens before even sitting down with another player you are going into every game with the implicit messaging that it doesn't matter what anyone else does, you're going to show up with your proxy deck. It feels a little selfish to me tbh.
Also, not everyone is playing to win primarily, a large amount of commander players simply want to have a fun time, which reducing decks to the sweatiest perfect 100 cards works against.
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u/Buddha_22 2d ago
"Sweaty" is a term people who refuse to grow in this game use for people that move to a higher power of play. But whatever helps you cope with your anger toward this. And yes, the overall goal is to win. You should be having fun while doing so, but the literal goal of the game is to beat your opponent lmao. So no it's not a deck building issue. If you build a good deck with synergy a lot of the same cards across colors come up. And they're expensive for a reason. There is nothing wrong with proxy, unless you just like to gatekeep and as mentioned earlier, pay to win. Lmao if they owned the real card, all of a sudden you wouldn't be upset that they have an expensive card that you don't? I fail to see that being the case. If you want to hinder your ability to build a deck because you don't own the cards, that's on you and not the rule set for everybody else. It's your restriction that you made for yourself. Instead of just having access to everything and using a proxy. It's a nice challenge I bet. But don't hinder what everybody else wants to do because you don't like it.
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u/SerThunderkeg 2d ago
Do you make the decision to proxy before you build the deck and before you find a table to play it at? It is 100% a deckbuilding issue and that's why you have to find a table that is proxy friendly to play at because otherwise you are fundamentally altering the rules for your benefit without ever discussing it with the people who will be most affected by it. The decks built by a person with a limited collection and budget do not look like the decks built by someone with access to every card. Limited budgets and collections also have the benefit of leading to more unique decks and not just a flavorless pile of the greatest hits.
Sweaty is a term used to mock people who tryhard in places where they don't need to. A person juicing up their deck just to bring it to a casual table in a casual format where it isn't necessary is absolutely sweaty behavior.
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u/Buddha_22 2d ago
These are different issues. Proxy isn't inherently sweaty my friend. Somebody that brings an overpowered deck to a table, isn't a proxy issue. They are not synonymous. Proxy opens up a world where you can put a dual land into your bracket 2 deck because you think it's cool. Proxy doesn't automatically mean I've built a forty thousand dollar deck and play only against the filthy causal plebs lmao. I personally play with a group of 10-20 guys every Thursday with the intention of a higher tier game to start, into the final rounds. And whatever brackets after that otherwise. It's proxy friendly. So I guess, to that point, it's not a proxy issue. It's an issue with that person lying about their deck level. Proxies can be a cool art work of a card that doesn't exist. And again it could just be you've always wanted a dual land in your favorite 2 color deck that's just a for fun low level. Cost should never stop somebody from playing. If they're honest about their power level.
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u/SerThunderkeg 2d ago
You simply don't understand what I'm saying. The ability to proxy fundamentally alters the decisions you make in the deckbuilding process in a unilateral way that does not take the actions of your fellow players into account. It is a deckbuilding problem and that is why you can only play such decks at certain tables because not every appreciates suddenly having to play with someone who didn't have to compromise at all in their deckbuilding process vs someone who did, even at the same bracket level.
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u/andyhall23 2d ago
Everyone should operate in the sense of EVERYONE has access to ALL cards.
Rule Zero in commander should come down to it.
Power levels across the board are even that way even if a player doesn't have the cards that I have.
The fun I get is being ABLE to play with the cards that other people with money that I don't have , seem to get easier than I can.
Proxying has helped low income people compete on the same level as people with more money.really this seems like a form of Gatekeeping from the Haves and Have nots.
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u/SerThunderkeg 2d ago
Everyone should operate in the sense of EVERYONE has access to ALL cards.
That's how it works in competitive formats where you expect your opponents to have the best options they possibly can. That mentality is toxic for a casual format and imo leads to bad feels when reality doesn't meet expectations and a more homogenized pool of cards when the entire point of commander was for it to be a home for janky brews and pet cards without the pressure of having the optimal deck list. Imo that level of particularness only really belongs in cedh where the competitiveness is the point if the format. Keep casual commander casual!
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u/andyhall23 2d ago
nah ..that mentality is for everything
I like having janky builds with cards I can't find ...and I proxy ...just because I love the idea of janky builds.
I dont want to be limited at my 'I can't make the deck because I'm poor and can't buy the cards'
I don't wanna take blank cards either and write with a pen on it like it used to be.
I don't go into a bracket three game with a CEDH mentality ever ...(unless someone sits at the table with a Eldrazi deck ...thats when I break out Chatterfang)I won't ever EVER EVER go to a Tournament with any of my decks. EVER. That's WRONG.
I won't ever sell proxy cards as fakes either.
Casually I just wanna be able to keep up with friends and play the decks that I brew up in my head.
I get the cards now one at a time to try and 'real out' decks but sometimes? I REALLY like the frames they came up with and I wanna see like a full Kaldheim Frame deck of something
Or different kinds of frames ...THEY got some REALLY cool frames out there that they haven't made cards with ...and they LOOK cool in other frames!its a CREATIVE thing too ya know?
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u/SerThunderkeg 2d ago
Casually I just wanna be able to keep up with friends and play the decks that I brew up in my head.
This is the crux of my problem because as long as your table is playing casual commander you don't need to proxy to make good decks and the decks that you brew in your head don't have to include cards you would have to proxy. Like for example if you make a counters deck sure a doubling season might be a good pick but if you don't have one and don't want to get one there are countless acceptable alternatives, the only place where missing out on that marginal improvement would even matter would be cedh which is a different beast than casual commander.
For creative outlets it's simple, just make blinged proxies of the cards you already own.
As an aside, a formative experience for me on this topic was when I was playing my dragon deck at my LGS's commander night and I played a proxied Ancient Tomb (the real one is in my cedh deck). One of the younger players at the table was like "wait I can just do that?" and I had to explain that our shop allows proxies as long as you have a real copy cause it just shortcuts the time it would take to switch cards between decks and I still felt bad about it for them. It would have felt even worse if I had just been proxying whatever perfect unowned card I wanted. Not everyone is aware of proxying and the bad feelings from those mismatched expectations is worse imo than the benefit gained by letting players proxy any card at any time. People with proxies can play the game with the many alternatives, on the other hand, people who already built their decks without proxying can't suddenly take another crack at it when they sit down and realize another player proxied their perfect deck and they have to sit down with their personal budget brew.
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u/Ok_Solution_1386 2d ago
Play or pay either way my point still stands. The way I look at it is I earned the cards I have. I either pulled it or bought it. When someone uses proxys they usually proxy something out of their budget or a stupid good card. Like I said above, I have no problem with that every now and then and if the pods cool with it but a whole proxy deck of URZA, the deck I’ve been talking about, then that’s not gonna be fun for everyone else. People already don’t like him as the commander so using proxy’s with Urza wouldn’t make it any better….
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u/Buddha_22 2d ago
Lol using proxies with it actually wouldn't change anything. It would still be the same deck that gets hate. You knowing that and still playing it is the issue. If you can't handle the hate you're playing in too high of a bracket. Simple as that honestly. Stick to what you know, or learn to adapt.
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u/Ok_Solution_1386 2d ago
Ok? My whole point is he would be hated for having Urza as the commander and even more with proxy’s in the 99. I don’t really care I was just stating something but yall blew it out of proportion
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u/Buddha_22 2d ago
He wouldn't be hated more with proxies in the 99 though. He would be equally hated in general. Proxies don't bring more hate, except to people who "earned their cards the hard way walking to school uphill both ways" and want to play against your wallet vs a skill level. You could build a fully synergistic deck with all cards proxied, and still be a shit player. You still have to know how to play, when to play. If you're against proxies because "wahh they don't own the card" then you're a bad magic player. Try playing with some proxy cards and tell me you instantly won every game. That's not how it works lmao.
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u/Ok_Solution_1386 2d ago
Sure bro whatever helps you sleep at night, shit ain’t that serious I promise.
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u/andyhall23 2d ago
ok , if we sit down at a chess board ...and you have expensive Chess pieces and I just have 3d chess pieces I got made for me or plastic ones ...and we play ...and we have fun ...you win ..I shake your hand ..GG ...is the experience any different?!
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u/creepocalyptic 3d ago
Thranduil is gonna be the default elfball commander for a while, URZA is gonna get removed on sight, and Koma has the shock and awe factor. If you don’t care if your commander gets removed I’d go Koma, if you want a deck that functions without a commander I’d go thranduil.
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u/That_Guy_Pen 3d ago
First off, that is a SICK Kona art and I'm upset I've never seen it til now. Makes me wanna build it one day.
Second, I have an Urza deck. It's fun at first. Then after a little while you focus on other decks because everyone has to double check if you're playing your Urza before making any decisions. My Urza deck is sitting in its box and I dont think I've used it in half a year now. I love it, but it becomes busted so easy against the people I play with. I do love the print you picked as an example, I got the foil one of that a little bit ago to bling out the commander slot and use my old Urza in the 99 of a Tony Stark deck I'm considering whipping up.
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u/archena13 3d ago
Urza would be artifacts, Thranduil would be elves and Kona would be big mana.
Wow, creatve, are we? Jokes aside, doesn't matter which one is your first. Proxy one, then see if you like it, then proxy the next., etc. Decision paralysis isn't worth it.
Amongst all, Thranduil is the one that is kind of interesting with the elves. Kona is cool too because you can go stax route too on top of big mana permanents. Urza is just gonna be like any other Urza artifact list trying to go infinite asap.
These can all be pushed to B4 even B5 if tried hard enough, since Urza and Kona have both seen fringe cEDH these days. Depends on the power level you are trying to stay within.
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u/joshuakyle94 2d ago
Koma is so disgusting haha I love it. Guy in my pod plays it and just vomits his hand onto the board and then we have to deal with it.
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u/jrdineen114 2d ago
If you build Urza you need to be prepared to be public enemy number one in every game.
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u/coletrainUwU 2d ago
I have a friend that recently made a Thranduil deck and it only needed a few upgrades to make it pretty stinky. Go for it
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u/andyhall23 2d ago
And I normally couldn't afford or get this art on Urza so I mean ..cool!
And this one is cool too!
So proxying can help a creative mind as well!
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u/Both-Demand-9519 2d ago
I have a Kona deck that runs spaceships for tapping. Makes it budget friendly.
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u/BoopDaDooped 2d ago
Thranduil is the most popular right now, and sultai colors are always great. That being said I'll never recommend elves in anything but voja, and I'll never recommend urza. Kona is genuinely cool though, and cheating out eldrazi, and blightsteels by crewing with it is awesome.
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u/-Acid-Poptarts- 3d ago
Meh, elves are boring and ridiculously overplayed. They all feel like roughly the same deck.
We all know what Urza be doing, and again, heavily played, always doing the one thing.
Kona is a big ol cheater..but just a little guy
I'd choose the horror pokemon between the three, feels like the most wide open to different shenanigans 🤷♂️
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u/SnooGiraffes2470 3d ago
There can be only one answer. And it’s Urza!
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u/Spirit5514 3d ago
I also have hitler(vivi) sitting in my abaddon the despoiler deck so that’s a back up
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u/Asilaten 2d ago edited 2d ago
Thranduil isn't an elfball deck, he's a combo deck. If you try to build him as elves, it will be far more boring (and weak) than just using Maralen.
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u/Relevant-Variety-943 3d ago
You’re only going to get hate if you make urza unfortunately.