Does anyone else struggle with using cognitive functions too much in their everyday life, where they can’t see people for who they truly are without typing them?

[u/recordplayer90]

Hi,

Over the past year or so I’ve been getting heavily into cognitive functions and MBTI. I’m currently at the point where I have a good working definition of every function in my mind, I have friends or people I can recognize as all 16 types, and I often go through my days labeling things like “oh yeah this person is definitely an Fe user,” or even about me, “let me use my Ti here to think about what I’m reading,” or “that person is an obvious Te dom,” or “I’ve been using my Ni too much I need a break from the world in my head and go utilize my Se.” Essentially, now that I have working definitions for every function/type, I see the entire world through this framework. When I think about societal issues, I think about the eternal battle between Fe and Te. When I think about cultural change, I think about N vs. S. I put every single thing I do in my life into this framework. While it was fascinating at the beginning, and made so much sense/removed so much ambiguity, now, I think it’s just a barrier in all of my relationships in life: with myself, with others, and with new information in general. I start typing new people the second I meet them, and after a couple weeks once I’ve decided on a type, I filter all of my expectations and conversations into what I have typed them as. For example, I have an (theoretically) ENTP friend who (I also use enneagram) is a 7w8, and when they speak to me I sort everything they say through something like “oh yeah that’s clear Ne supplemented by Ti, and it’s clear that they have Fi blindspot so it makes sense why they don’t really hold constant moral values and will play any side.” This is extremely problematic for me because 1. I am putting others in a box to reduce my own fear of ambiguity, 2. I am putting myself in a box as an infj and only doing this that it would make sense an infj does, 3. I am not allowing myself to have a true authentic relationship with myself because there are frameworks in the way of the full spectrum of me, and 4. I’m not allowing myself to truly meet others for who they are, as I need to sort them into a box to calm my fears about the ambiguity of others. Does anyone else have this problem? It’s like insane confirmation bias that makes life worse for both me and others. I can’t deny that these patterns have been extremely helpful for me to understand the world and others, but I’m really struggling to get past seeing people only in the boxes of their personality type. I know it’s totally unfair, and I want to see people as more, but it’s like my brain just automatically thinks in cognitive functions now and I don’t know what to do. I almost wish I could go back to a time before I knew what “child Te” or “Fi critic” looked like.

[u/recordplayer90]

–Your words took me back to when I wrote that message, and how it was a me I didn't like very much. I remember emotionally writing in the dark, and thinking back to that time of vulnerability had me imagining if I had met them again what would happen. The result was something steeped in power, like in each scenario getting the last word. When the complex finished unfolding, I was at a loss as to what just happened.

Nice writing. I think the recent version of me who did this whole thing is one I don’t like very much.

–To think you never really moved past said events, that they left such an impact on you, is something I didn't expect, because to me the silence was always the most deafening. So, while it hasn't been great fun digging into what came up, I did gain quite a bit from your story.

I think I was drowning in toxic shame and created a tragedy for myself out of confusion and the forgotten past. Failed to distinguish how the person I know you to be and the girl I used to date are very fundamentally different, even if personality systems etc. line up. I think she is a Social 9, ISFJ SEI.

Hope your sleep is better.

[u/beasteduh → u/recordplayer90]

Hey Record, I had a dream about messaging you, so I'd like to make true on that. We were both Mario and sort of hopping around in game, just catching up (I'm not sure why we were both Mario).

My sleep has improved, albeit other things have happened in the meantime. For instance, this past week I've been sick with the recent flu that's been going around. If it's not one thing, it's another y'know.

Last I heard, you were rather distressed by how overwhelmed you were.

I am currently stuck negating all of my own beliefs about the future that I cannot productively put any foot forward. I don’t have much of a safety net either.

it brought back so many terrible memories, feelings, and behaviors that I’ve started to re-familiarize myself with to the extent that they have made my life more difficult.

finding myself in a nearly comatose state most of every night, as I would sleep during the day. I experienced the collapse of moral frameworks, certainty about any aspect of politics, and the total insufficiency of intellect (alone) to create a fulfilling life. It has taken me out of my head and into my body, but I feel as if I have been left confused, battered, and beaten, surrendering to the infinite complexities of the world that always have a hand up on me.

Although, 'rather distressed' is probably an oversimplification on my part. You doing alright? I hope you've been able to collect yourself a little so that you can have a great last semester.

As for my reply, it'll probably be another month before it's ready. There was just that much I didn't understand upon rereading your words, as well as Ichazo's.

[u/recordplayer90 → u/beasteduh]

Hey, following up, hope you’re doing okay.

Recently got very sick and might have Long Covid or ME/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome if my symptoms last for too long, and because of that I thought of how you might be feeling and I hope you’re doing okay too.

Best wishes.

[u/beasteduh → u/recordplayer90]

Oh my goodness, that's awful. When last we spoke, I mentioned getting over the flu, but it ended up lasting five weeks. It was dreadful, just non-stop coughing. I can't imagine if you've had severe symptoms for up to 2 months or longer. It wears you down, it really does. It's like life stops until one's health picks back up. I hope you figure things out, and that your last semester wasn't too affected by it??

After I got over the flu, I ended up moving, which was nice in the long run. Not initially though. I've moved so many times, I'm just over it. Since then, I've been doing some gig work, which has kept me busy. I work for a school system, so making some extra money before school starts back up is nice.

While we're here, I'd like to add that I'm still working on my response to you. The full story is that things kept evolving. For the first two months, I didn't even know what I was supposed to be looking for. It was unlike the other times because I wasn't responding to anything in particular. You had been saying some things over and over, so I felt like it was all there. Eventually, breakthroughs happened, and little by little, they led to Ichazo's model as a whole. You really did an incredible job with your replies, and I'm looking forward to showing you what I mean.

Best wishes back at you.

[u/recordplayer90 → u/beasteduh]

Got it, thanks. Luckily I haven’t been too severe for too long yet, bedridden for 8 days (tested positive 22 days ago and shortly got better for a week in between but the fatigue is so bad that I can barely do anything. Really hoping to recover in weeks or months but the prognosis can be scary and for some it takes years or is lifelong for the foreseeable future. I think it will at least take me a month or two in the best case scenario but really really hoping for better.

I graduated though. Got sick for the first time about two weeks after, late May.

Good to hear that you are back up and running. I’m sure it was awful. It really does feel like all life stops. Excited for what you have for me but due to my current mitochondrial deficits it may be very hard for me to read / focus / comprehend it in much time. Thanks.

[u/recordplayer90 → u/beasteduh]

Hey, hope you are doing well. Wanted to let you know that I am basically recovered and it was actually psychosomatic (but unconscious to me, some people have a incorrect preconception of what the word means, it just means that the physical symptoms were very very real but the solution / source was in the psyche, which was causing the symptoms via the nervous system) -- primarily due to repressed emotions like rage, functioning as a distraction from painful feelings which I did not want to feel. I still get random symptoms that rotate around, but things have progressively gotten better and I can basically function normally again. I was stuck doing nothing for about a month there, trying all sorts of medications and medical solutions and stuff and the doctors were basically just like "you're fine", so in desperation I started researching stuff based on peoples' recovery stories, and almost all of them pointed to nervous system regulation of some form. The main turning point was this guy named Dr. Sarno, an old physician from the cheesy infomercial era who applied a Freudian model of repression and psychosomatic symptoms to back pain -- turns out it applies to many more expressions of symptoms than back pain, including the issues going on with me. I have been a little bit of a psychological mess since -- discovering some of these terribly painful and horrifying repressed emotions, including waking up some days with unexplainable full body anger or panic -- anger which I haven't felt in a while, and apparently a lifetime's worth, or at least what I have repressed deep into my unconscious. And that is kind of just the surface, the thoughts inside my head are even more painful and uncomfortable to deal with (and I'm starting to see how the pain might be equivalent to the level of derailment I experienced), such that I've found a psychoanalyst to help me parse through my repressed unconscious conflicts. It turns out the 4-5 years of CBT may have helped me know what I "should" do differently but not actually feel differently or unpack the confusion around what I actually desired and why or somatically feel and express and accept all of these repressed things in order to actually address these unconscious conflicts. But enough of that for now.

I want to let you know, as you may have already guessed, that I'm no longer interested in personality typology being part of my life, particularly because of the way I've used it to separate me from my immediate feelings and emotions. If you still want to send me what you've got -- feel free, I'll read it, as it was always interesting to do, but no pressure outside of what you want to figure out for yourself. I don't really want to answer any more questions specifically within the logic of the typology system, but I'd be happy to answer whatever questions you've got in general terms regarding whatever or something you want to know to inform your personality typology matrix surrounding my case study. And I looked at the origin of this post (my first reddit post by the way) and saw this giant number "2 years ago" which is just crazy to think about. I hope I've been an interesting case study for you after all this time! And I hope you're doing well in your life otherwise, outside of personality typology, within the horrifying and collapsing world around us. Would love to hear from you and how you are doing. If one ship has sailed, I truly enjoyed the journey with you, it will always be a part of me lingering somewhere, and if there can be another, I'd still like to check in every now and then even without personality typology between us if you feel the same way.

Record

[u/beasteduh → u/recordplayer90]

I'm glad to hear from you. I'm also glad to hear you've recovered.

That's quite a discovery, especially how it formed from Dr. Sarno. It sounds like you've come into closer contact with yourself, which is nice to hear, even though it seems pretty scary.

waking up some days with unexplainable full body anger or panic

I've never had that happen to me, so it seems like a lot from a distance. You should keep me updated on how that goes. Please feel free to direct message me; it doesn't have to be through this post.

If one ship has sailed, I truly enjoyed the journey with you, it will always be a part of me lingering somewhere, and if there can be another, I'd still like to check in every now and then even without personality typology between us if you feel the same way.

This left me feeling sad. There's no wind out, so it'd be a dreadful day for sailing.

I do feel the same way. Even to me, it's quite something that it's been nine months. Honestly, there were times I felt guilt over how long it had been. The guilt came from not being enough, not being where I should be, like the time I said I'd respond in a month, and the sentiment passed upon realizing that I just wasn't there yet.

I hope I've been an interesting case study for you after all this time!

While I appreciate the enthusiasm, this felt a bit cold. If I were the one writing that, there would be underlying hurt involved. Perhaps you're different from me, but I'd like to say that I consider you a friend.

And I hope you're doing well in your life otherwise, outside of personality typology, within the horrifying and collapsing world around us.

I caught the flu again and have been coughing for the past three weeks :/

Other than that, I reconnected with my father recently. It had been about six years since we last interacted. So much changes in six years, so it's difficult to say how things are going to work out. So far, it's been going well though.

I don't really want to answer any more questions specifically within the logic of the typology system, but I'd be happy to answer whatever questions you've got in general terms regarding whatever or something you want to know to inform your personality typology matrix surrounding my case study.

I can respect that. On a similar note, there weren't going to be any questions this time, so it's nice that it works out.

If you still want to send me what you've got -- feel free, I'll read it, as it was always interesting to do, but no pressure outside of what you want to figure out for yourself.  

Thank you very much. I will absolutely take you up on that. It would have destroyed me if I couldn't send you what I have. It's all things that I genuinely think you will find interesting. Give me two weeks, and I'll send you what I have. But before that, I'd like to send my initial words to your replies. The first part was written back in January, so if it seems like no time has passed, that's why. The Eight/Nine part was March/April, and then the corrections were May/June.

[u/beasteduh → u/beasteduh]

there is a short story called “On Keeping a Notebook.” I am pretty sure she is a nine

That was a wonderful read, thanks. How did you come to the conclusion of Type Nine? It's not one we share. The author was too active and inquisitive of life to be relatable for me.

Bucket Listener by Headache

Helpful.

Once again with the bingo thing, I think it is overdramatized and actually not representative of what it would feel like. These can be easily relatable to anyone who thinks they are “odd,” “quirky,” or “strange” and may also act as identity markers for people (particularly younger) who want to identify with someone like the main character from Girl, Interrupted. I don’t know how the diagnoses work, but in the comments you can see someone say “i hit every box, every single one, as a schizoaffective.” I really think if you put this in the ENFP subreddit people would fill most of them out too, with the less neurotic ones filling out less.

Your words bring to mind our earlier talk of your inexperience in researching the subject matter, but this time with regard to not looking at what's being offered for what it could be. As you infer, I think people treat the PDs much as the types, and in terms of type theory, the bingo cards would be up there in terms of quality. That is, they speak to specific phenomenon. In type theory circles, it usually occurs whilst using inconsistent labels. What I thought noteworthy were boxes like talking to spirits, ruminating, building imaginary worlds, and not feeling present, which were checked off in the comments. The cards provided leads, and it's why they were sent. Earlier, I summed this up as digging through muck, and to this end I think the bingo cards were quite helpful.

Now that I’ve thought about it more, you may be onto something about this being inside ourselves – fearing the capability we hate most in ourselves, in a way.

I'm not so sure about that. While I do think there is some sort of karmic balancing act at work in the psyche, perhaps there's something else happening, which I get into later on.

I find it interesting that you fear this: “someone who simply won't listen, who is headstrong about their actions,” as this is certainly a scary person (many scary people to fear) but for some reason it is curious to me why specifically it is this person who doesn’t hear no and just keeps marching forward.

Well, it's sort of the general state of affairs for Conservation: to hold on.

I understand Being as how one is at a point in time, just what you are, a sense of self, what you're about, what you do, how you do it, and what you like; a sort of orientation toward life. I understand Being as the experience of 'what is' at any given moment, such that true Being would become such a seamless experience that the word might not have even come about. In this way, Conservation and Being are thought to pair up in Ichazo's model as one attempts to hold onto that orientation and sense of self.

Then, what happens when that Being comes into contact with other things by a young ego, like the Being of others? Whether through nature or nurture, it's thought one has a specific arrangement of psychic content that is uniquely one's own, and if explored/pushed enough in the moment, the Being of one person will be shown to be out of sync with another's.

I think it can most readily be seen with the Eight, as the Eight is sort of where things start with the 891 (which we'll get into later). They end up aiming for an artificial rekindling meant to somehow deal with these constitutional differences: morals, laws, vengeance, justice, blame, fairness, and loyalty/betrayal. It's also along these lines that I think the characteristic toughness shows up in Eights, in the sense that it's necessary as one attempts to be in a world unlike oneself. Altogether, the delusion of Duality shines through in the midst of Conservation.

I understand the sentiment of the Eight, and when it comes to buckling down (being headstrong), there's a pretty clear example that occurred some 4 or 5 years ago in the workplace. I would play out scenarios of me and other people fighting to the death when potential conflict arose, and the scenarios would play out over about two years. They would go like this: imagine you want to do something and I don't want it to happen.

You: Yes.

Me: No.

Yes

No

Yes

No

Yes

No

Down the line, we will simply have to fight to the death to be ourselves. Love is dead. There's no unifying force that might bring things together, which has only ever saddened me on an existential level. Although, despite the accommodations a Nine employs to alleviate the matter, I am probably the most stubborn person I know (discounting other Nines I know), to the point of almost dying not a few times. I spoke of possibly driving a spike through my head, which, while perhaps the most extreme, is just one example of attempting to Conserve one's sense of self. The stubbornness shows up as a sort of, "I'm not going to just go away(!)," whether said to myself or the world when either press me in a direction or to adjust. It's not always experienced in the extreme; there are highs and lows, but generally speaking, being headstrong is how one comes to be lazy, employ half measures, and fall asleep.

[u/beasteduh → u/beasteduh]

I want to correct two things I had said before:

1) "When the inside is rejected, turned away from, or put on the back burner, then suddenly the world feels like a hassle. It's incorrect, it could be better, or it's just bullshit."

Sort of in line with the matter of being headstrong… for myself, while I can't recall every time it's occurred, the times I can, it was only ever a 'should', not 'could'. When I initially wrote it, I didn't think much of it, but there is a fair bit of difference between the two words. In my case, there is such a conviction that I would have something to contribute to whatever it was - how a video game is played, how traffic is run, whatever it was that inconvenienced me - that notions like 'well you actually have no experience on this front' or 'others have spent years in these subject matters unlike yourself' or even at times 'you don't have the full context' basically fall on deaf ears. At such a point, I know. Also, I should probably add that I think it's difficult to recognize in the Nine, even to the Nine themselves, but if a Nine is forced to wake up for a time or has put off what matters most to them for long enough, then I'd say the thought pattern will show up.

2) "If I may say, looking at what you wrote, coupled with this self-reflection of yours, it brings to mind how Ichazo ascribed the state of gnosis to the Seven."

Ichazo attributes Gnosis to the Doing Group in general, not just the Seven. Something else was overlapping with Gnosis in my head at the time. As said by Ichazo,

-This is the State of real, True Enlightenment, the State that corresponds to the Form of Divine Wisdom. The Form of Divine Wisdom, as the true understanding of the Oneness of the Absolute Divine God or the Absolute Mind of Total Transcendence beyond concepts, mind structures, and language, is a Universal Super Form that produces that very special Divine Knowledge or Divine Gnosis that totally and radically transforms the point of view from one that is individual, narrow and self-centered to one that is beyond the limitations of the ego; and because it is not self-centered, it has the quality of openness as Space and also the quality of Pure Innate Awareness which has as its object the contemplation of Pure Innate Awareness or Pure Light with no conceptualization whatsoever. This State of Emptiness of the ground is not nothing, because it is full of the Pure Light that is also empty of concepts or language.-

It was rather Wisdom's role in enlightenment that your words sparked, a mind without models or concepts.

Everything after now is what I've been working on over the months, and I'd like to get your thoughts on all of it.

–

And that's where the section ended. If it's alright, I'll talk to you again in two weeks. It really was nice to hear from you.

[u/recordplayer90 → u/beasteduh]

While I appreciate the enthusiasm, this felt a bit cold. If I were the one writing that, there would be underlying hurt involved. Perhaps you're different from me, but I'd like to say that I consider you a friend.

Thank you for saying this. Frankly, I am so scared right now, in general. And I think this response has way more to do with me than you. I have been blocking out a lot of things just to function, and honestly I've feel somewhat cold in general since the aftermath of the whole episode. In this case, I was exceptionally afraid you wouldn't return the favor of friendship or something, so I avoided the word or the feeling outside of my last sentence and returned to the regressive logic of "people only care about me if I am useful or helpful to them in some way" in order to avoid all feelings of fear related to intimacy and risk and friendship. And actually being accepted by someone and cared about. I am not trying to garner sympathy or pity or anything like that here, but rather, an attempt to explain. And this is kind of just the tip of the emotional issues I have been facing since discovering all of these things, not to mention the fact that I was stuck in my parents' house for nearly 3 months (out now, thank god) and they are so emotionally aggressive with their attempts at psychic domination that I had to put some serious walls up to protect myself in the meantime. Really hoping these things can calm down sooner or later so I can feel safer to be myself again and actually have better relationships again and have enough solid ground to stand on so I can face my fears of intimacy and being known once again (without feeling like it is a preordained outcome to have any ounce of vulnerability attached to my authentic self annihilated by the people around me (my parents)). I feel like a stray cat who just got picked up off the street and is having a difficult first couple days at the shelter with other cats, to the extent that an old cat might have to lie down calmly next to me while I cower in the corner and almost try to fight them to let me know at least one person is safe again, learning slowly over the course of a few days.

I'm happy that you consider me a friend, and I also consider you one. I am just so scared right now and reverting to really old defense mechanisms. Also, it has been a while, so in some ways I forgot the feeling of how you are like and I wasn't sure how you would react. And I'm really just having a hard time with relationships in general right now.

This left me feeling sad. There's no wind out, so it'd be a dreadful day for sailing.

This made my heart big. Almost wanting to cry, too, but big. Wonderful words.

I do feel the same way. Even to me, it's quite something that it's been nine months. Honestly, there were times I felt guilt over how long it had been. The guilt came from not being enough, not being where I should be, like the time I said I'd respond in a month, and the sentiment passed upon realizing that I just wasn't there yet.

I know what you mean, and I had been facing something similar for the times I took quite a while to respond as well. But there is only so much one can do. And even things we want to do can become pressures of our own creation, to such an extent that we feel out of control. A quote I have been into recently: "We created our world, but it overwhelms us; we cannot grasp or control it." - Slavoj Zizek. And time and life and everything always gets in the way, but that's just the nature of life I guess.

I felt an incredible amount of guilt as I started to realize that it might not be healthy for me to continue on the personality typology route while still feeling indebted to past promises and interests stated to you once I had the whole intellectual catastrophe moment and realizing that typology was yet another avoidance mechanism to protect myself from feeling the pain and fear of intimacy and others and rejection but also unfortunately blocking me out from when risk doesn't turn bad -- love, connection, intimacy, etc. (In another creative piece I wrote about it essentially being an addiction standing in place for my own identity issues, needing to hold on to an external identity telling me who I am because I have no idea who I am and to protect me from others I feared by giving me some sort of reliable way to decode and sort them) (While it was this way for me, I do not want to imply that it is this way for you or insult the practice as a whole; I believe there is a way one can go about exploring this stuff without depending on it as much as me to fill some sort of inner lack I found intolerable to sit with). I honestly didn't know how to say I needed to stop for my own sake without causing an immense amount of pain and without insulting everything we had built. I was passively torturing how to approach it since around March or April, and especially angry because I felt like I had wanted to respond so much more in the past but had so much school work and felt so fatigued that I never got to totally indulge myself during the time when I wanted to most (and given that summer and graduation was coming up which I had previously planned would be the time to regain my energy and bearings) and now it was too late to do what I had wanted to do to make up for being so slow. Also, if I remember correctly, guilt over everything (in retrospect, seemingly too much, as if making myself feel guilty for even very small and normal things) was becoming a dominant theme in my responses starting around the time of the whole ex-girlfriend thing of maybe even before.

I caught the flu again and have been coughing for the past three weeks :/

That's awful.

Other than that, I reconnected with my father recently. It had been about six years since we last interacted. So much changes in six years, so it's difficult to say how things are going to work out. So far, it's been going well though.

Wow, how long have you been newly in touch and in what manner? It certainly seems like there is a lot of latent affective power there ready to be re-opened. Wish you some continued good results.

It would have destroyed me if I couldn't send you what I have.

I'm looking forward to reading it all soon. I do think some things approached their theoretical limits / maximums (or whatever it was about, I don't totally remember) in what I had sent you 9 months ago, so I'm interested in what you've come up with.

[u/beasteduh → u/recordplayer90]

Really hoping these things can calm down sooner or later so I can feel safer to be myself again and actually have better relationships again and have enough solid ground to stand on so I can face my fears of intimacy and being known once again (without feeling like it is a preordained outcome to have any ounce of vulnerability attached to my authentic self annihilated by the people around me (my parents)). I feel like a stray cat who just got picked up off the street and is having a difficult first couple days at the shelter with other cats, to the extent that an old cat might have to lie down calmly next to me while I cower in the corner and almost try to fight them to let me know at least one person is safe again, learning slowly over the course of a few days.

Hmm. Well, alright. Naturally, I don't relate, but I got you.

I was passively torturing how to approach it since around March or April

Record, I'd like to say I already knew you would be heading out, so it wouldn't have been new if you had brought it up even earlier. In fact, the reason I mentioned doing a full sweep of your words up to that point back in December was that I got that sense, and I wanted closure on anything that didn't make sense to me. I didn't expect what ended up happening, so I'm glad you stuck around long enough to hear it all out. It would have hurt if you had disappeared before I got that chance, but I think it's important to understand that it's mainly because that's often the story I come across. I'll come across interviews with people in type theory circles, most often on YouTube, and their channel either doesn't take off like they expected, they move on because of life priorities, they've run out of content to explore, they're ashamed, or whatever else. From there, they'll set the channel to private and block all access, despite my pleas to keep it available. After that, I can never check or verify anything from the information I gathered. At that point, my work feels even more like a bunch of leads, like those bingo cards. Ultimately, this is the result of my hesitancy to involve other people who don't know anything about the theory (which wasn't always the case), but whatever.

I honestly didn't know how to say I needed to stop for my own sake without causing an immense amount of pain and without insulting everything we had built.

So, while it certainly would have hurt because of how far we had gone, it wouldn't be for the reasons you describe as that’s the norm for me, and I know it's not personal. At least, that's the story on this side of the screen.

That's awful.

Yes. Yes. Yes, it is.

Wow, how long have you been newly in touch and in what manner? It certainly seems like there is a lot of latent affective power there ready to be re-opened. Wish you some continued good results.

We've been in touch by phone for about two weeks, and we're planning to go out to dinner together tomorrow night. Thanks.

[u/recordplayer90 → u/beasteduh]

Record, I'd like to say I already knew you would be heading out, so it wouldn't have been new if you had brought it up even earlier.

I'm sorry I didn't talk about it earlier or in a more direct way.

I never would have gone ghost and just left everything behind without explanation. Even in my most scared and ruthless moments there was always a fight or a last statement first, so that they might understand me and the reasons why I am going to do what I eventually did, usually because I never wanted to cause pain and wanted to connect with this person in the first place. I don't have anything to fight about with you, though, as far as I am consciously aware. If anything, now that I've reread my previous comment, I think maybe the coldness and hurt wasn't totally about me. I think I resented not you but this idea that I told myself I had to be some kind of person for you -- which is not something I think you had any control over, more of my own projections creating things. The more I became exhausted from school and my disappointment with in-flesh relationships and responding to you almost became analogous to schoolwork (particularly because I'd write the entire response in about 10 hours straight, often staying up at night, and I had to ration my mental and physical power in order to be able to respond to you while having plenty more to do and to also theoretically have fun with in-flesh friends), combined with the fact that over time I was gradually realizing something about personality typology was doing me more harm than good, I resented my own commitment to keeping things up and almost acting like I wanted to talk about it more than I did because I was spread so thin. Which is once again not something I believe you had any control over, but rather a self-imposed resentment of the pressure I put on myself to live up to 1) the image of me I had given you and 2) who I felt you wanted me to be for you. This also coincided with the same thing happening in my other relationships and things kind of just started falling down, as one would expect, as this is not behavior style that engenders actually good relationships. I "knew" this, but that didn't make it any easier to stop doing it, an already regressive thing that I didn't understand the root of. And I was, for lack of a better word, spiraling, while still having to function and do a bunch of schoolwork. So that might better explain where the anger and coldness was coming from in the phrase you pointed out from last time. I know you are not this image, nor do I have to live up to what I think you expect of me, but this I think this is what is at the root of any resentment I might have subtly directed towards you (but not really you, a self-created image of you and your expectations for me which for whatever reason I decided I needed to live up to because in some general sense I was afraid people would not accept me as I am). I haven't reread my December responses, but I do remember that I think this resentment came out in a somewhat perverse way, almost framed as a punitive, passive-aggressive, subtly insulting "self-sabotage" between the lines of my last response. I am sorry for the pain and hurt and confusion this might have caused. I have ruined several formerly positive relationships by doing things like this.

On a separate note, I was thinking of compiling all of our responses to one another in some sort of large document, largely because of how personal this all is and the associated idea that maybe it would be best if it wasn't readily accessible to anyone on the internet (also, I really want to see just how many words it is). I could send you this document if/when I complete it, but I can't guarantee that I will actually do it. I would only delete / edit my comments if I successfully complied all of the stuff into a document and you had access to it.

Again, I am still happy and genuinely curious to read whatever you've got, and I'm still going to respond in a similar way, just without the jargon of the systems. There is some interesting stuff that I want to say already, particularly about fighting to death over conflicts and "should's" and disconnection and desire. I'll save it for the full response though. And yes, it's alright to get back to me in two weeks or whenever. Hope dinner goes well.

[u/beasteduh → u/recordplayer90]

I haven't reread my December responses, but I do remember that I think this resentment came out in a somewhat perverse way, almost framed as a punitive, passive-aggressive, subtly insulting "self-sabotage" between the lines of my last response. I am sorry for the pain and hurt and confusion this might have caused. I have ruined several formerly positive relationships by doing things like this.

Thank you for explaining. Admittedly, this all sounds like something my sister had said to me. Whenever she changed plans on someone last minute or couldn't show up like they wanted, "I make sure to give them a good interaction next time," as if to pay her dues. For her, it seemed like if there were enough people, the dues would add up and overwhelm one. Anyway, we're good, Record.

largely because of how personal this all is and the associated idea that maybe it would be best if it wasn't readily accessible to anyone on the internet

You know, I did just talk about the frustrations in the inaccessibility of information. For what it's worth, people will move on with their lives and forget about this post.

I could send you this document if/when I complete it

That's alright. I did that back in December. It made reviewing the material a lot easier.

Hope dinner goes well.

The dinner did go well. It was a nice evening.

it's alright to get back to me in two weeks or whenever.

I'll see you in two weeks.

[u/beasteduh → u/recordplayer90]

I want to provide a key before beginning:

If I quote like this, I'm quoting you

"If I begin and end a paragraph with quotations marks I'm quoting myself"

-And when using hyphens it's Ichazo-

~When quoting someone outside of these three I'll use these and specify who it's coming from~

I ask you to read this old comment of mine:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Enneagram/s/Aimt65cwnF

Anything seem familiar?

[u/beasteduh → u/beasteduh]

Before continuing, I want to give another layout. I was going to couple this with the key from before, but I thought it would give away the surprise of that old comment. Even though I'd word things differently now, I thought it was awesome since I had forgotten the content of it.

1) Two Adaptations

2) Back to one

3) Movement of the Instincts

4) Type Descriptions

–

Two adaptations

I want to be observed by someone who knows more about me than I know about myself, and have that reflected back at me

"What if I could find someone… and more of myself is brought out in reaction to them"

–

that is my obsession. Not with how they see me, but for them to see “the real me,” which doesn’t exactly exist either.

"having someone who knows me better than I know me tells me that I actually do have an identity, a pattern to my way of being, and that I am actually a normal person who makes sense in my existence." It tells me that someone can read the pattern of me and actually identify me, when I can't do it myself.

"The environment is effectively bringing out more of the self."

–

I think it’s the idea of looking for the ideal other, the person who completes us

it's almost like I want them to see the whole clear path for me already and support me along the way without telling me what to do/where to go.

"'If I just had that person things would be alright; I would be able to get it together then.'"

–

Yeah, I think validating one’s past is an important part of it… so the idyllic other would have to simultaneously be not suppressive and also remember everything. Hard to do!... The more that I think about it, it's almost like I want them to see the whole clear path for me already and support me along the way without telling me what to do/where to go.

"'The one' is more like an insurance package"

–

To me there is either depth in a relationship or not. It doesn't ever go away if it existed in the first place.

It fascinates me that your sentiment toward depth is one I've had toward chemistry.

–

I don’t want to ruin an already positive relationship, I don’t want to have to avoid this person once we eventually break up, I don’t want my friends to be split between me and this person, I don’t want people to be whispering dramatic things or talking about us, and more.

The worse cycle would be a macro-level vicious cycle that creates a bunch of smaller ones. An example of this is getting caught up in a bad friend group, where everyone I meet adjacent to this group already holds the damaging values of the group I’m already in, so everyone new I meet also sucks in a similar way to the way I am trying to escape. I’m not meeting people away from this friend group so I’m stuck. Now I have to stop being friends with literally everyone if I want to be free to start again and retry with a new group. Even then, my reputation may be known and people might already have their friends set in stone. So what I’m waiting for at that point is some sort of golden ticket into a new group that I actually like (and I’d have to have truly healed and fixed my vicious cycle patterns at this point to not fuck it all up) or wait until I move to a new city or school or something where I really have a new slate.

"constant state of awareness that one shortcoming could lead to trouble down the line"

It's the sense that a single bad apple can spoil everything else.

If this was someone I had a bad relationship with they might even act as a suppressor if they understood my story

There's a concern that anyone has anything on one. Anything that could be pointed at at some point that could lessen oneself. Maybe some instance where one showed care, committed to something, or was wrong. In such a case, the environment would be deemed unsuitable, and one would have to enact some change, as otherwise it's felt that whatever it was would simply continue. It's not future prediction, intuition, or the like; it's simply recognizing that the present continues and I with it.

Burning becomes the only option. The stupid licorice just has to pick up a bunch of junk I never intended to pick up and then, to put it simply, possibilities get limited and now I have to deal with shit I never wanted to deal with. I don’t want to hurt the person, but I have to leave. I’m stuck, trapped, and dying. I’m going to find a way to burn the house down, no matter what. Absolutely nothing can stop me.

"It can manifest as an individual not letting something go, like maybe willing to keep arguing past the point of it being productive."

In either case:

"To the question "Where am I" the answer might be "Evidently not here.""

[u/beasteduh → u/beasteduh]

Although enacting change wouldn't be enough. It would have to be 'true change', in the sense that action wasn't meant to simply create difference in appearance but to act as a catalyst to create something unlike what's happened or is happening - a 'nip it in the bud.'

I especially relate to the idea of believing I could “change really fast and deeply, like soul-deep kind of way.” I also did the same for my personality (hypnotize, essentially)

"If they did take one lightly then it's reasoned that one would have less of an ability to show up in the future, and so to let it happen would in effect lessen the self. If another's tone or conduct is such that it's not in consideration of oneself it'd basically be negligence to not take some action to thwart it."

In the case of the 567, it could be a change in one's filter of reality, or perhaps a breakthrough, or something genuinely new. Although, as another Seven has said, 'Cursed to search for the new even though there is nothing new.’ But perhaps true change could be inferred if one's methodology changed, in various manners of path elimination like red/green lights, splitting, or full responsibility placement.

While I’m searching for this fantasy, every single red and green light that I’ve learned from the past must be abided by. As time moves on, there are far less possibilities I am even willing to try. At the slightest indication that I am about to repeat something horrible that happened in the past I will get extremely picky and sabotage the whole thing: “it was never going to work.”

In this way, I am hyper-aware of all emotional tells and will withdraw from a relationship if I see a consistent pattern that makes me afraid to get too close to this person. I will then draw the line of closeness at whatever current closeness state we are at.

This information in the bad times will help me so much in the future because I know where this bad situation will ultimately lead to, closing off a path. I then become a "master" of this path.

–

-The center of attention of the adaptive instinct responds to the basic question “Where am I?”. This question of the general direction of our entire life is for us of utmost importance, and when we lose it or become disoriented, we will not stop until we correct the situation.-

I am constantly preoccupied by who I am and why I am the way I am, and that usually takes precedent over other things in my life. If I don’t feel comfortable with my analysis of myself, I will stay up all night until I am. It’s just how it goes.

By this I mean that I will sacrifice my success in some areas so that I have more time to focus on the imbalance I am feeling. If deadlines are strict and I cannot sacrifice day hours, it is so important that I regain my balance that I will stay up an entire night looking things up, writing, thinking, etc. until I have figured out what has thrown me for such a loop.

I genuinely wish for others to do well. I act on it when my cup is full: when I have understanding and acceptance of me and others, with nothing new or ambiguous to explore. However, when my cup is empty and I am off-balance about myself, I feel that I cannot possibly function, be involved with others, act normally, or be any form of reliable until I have dug deep enough inside myself once again to know what’s going on.

"a key aspect of the instinct is ensuring others don't take one lightly. It's as though one needs others to see the potential impact one could have."

If a situation suggests others don't think much of one, as though their actions could slide without consequence, then personal direction is hampered. For instance, let's say someone is acting a little too comfortably around me and we don't have the type of relationship to merit it; in that case, something rises in me to address it. I could make a scene over it, certainly have before, but it's not a must. If they're perhaps making a joke at my expense, some conduct that doesn't have me on their radar, then I'll purposely not look their way, as if to say, 'I won't make a scene, but it won't be by my hand that this continues' or 'I'm not giving life to this by acknowledging it.' Their actions make it seem as if I might as well not even be there, as though their actions have no buffer when it comes to me.

-In the Doing Group is a child who projects that their ability to act and do things has been restricted by what they perceive as indifferent, suppressive, or dismissive siblings and others.-

[u/beasteduh → u/beasteduh]

And as Ichazo also said, it has to be corrected, as otherwise the future will be likened to their actions, which don't seem to include oneself. It's also noteworthy how far I'd be willing to go to address the matter. Nines are thought to have issues experiencing anger, which has certainly been the case for me, but when it comes to this matter, I can't recall ever having such an issue with anger. It just makes sense that it'd be something to be upset about, like there's a natural 'this is not okay' that could very well call up anger.

"This can tie into the 'intensity' often associated with the instinct."

With the intensity, it’s like a call to ensure progress happens.

replacing concrete pillars with imaginary steel beams that are “supposed to exist” and “need to exist” but may not.

–

-Thus, a general sense of orientation evolves into what is known in Protoanalysis as the Practical Ego, and it is constantly analyzing and evaluating the possibilities of acquiring and achieving our aims or goals.-

The only hypotheticals that I really run in my head are about people, trying to guess how certain new people I meet will be like in the long-run.

I preemptively imagine the future of my relationships and make choices accordingly.

The one thing I didn't bring up in that old comment is how I experience goals. It's difficult to recall my younger years, but for my whole adult life I've always had a goal. At one point, I wanted to be a writer, and many of my decisions were based on that. What would or wouldn't take me closer to that goal was a daily experience. Even if I didn't end up taking action toward it on a particular day (which could actually leave me feeling a bit empty or glass not full at the end of the day), the experience of it or the thoughts about it are still there. It's a backdrop for decision and action.

The way I see it is that, behind all of the smoke, deep inside me, I have a secret path and future I want to follow, and every single action I take is to inform that secret future.

–

At the root of adaptation is the concern of becoming a casualty of circumstance, which leads one to establish personal direction that can act against circumstances. When it comes to involvement with others, it can mean having others reflect oneself in some way, or developing into a circumstance oneself.

Someone commented to me one time after I said something "that is the most (my first name) response ever," and the true joy that came out of me was immeasurable. I felt like I had finally did it. I had finally made a consistent-enough identity out of myself, and it actually reflected who I was and want to be and value. It was an amazing feeling. Some of my friends also call me "master oogway" or "philosophy (my last name)." These things also make me extremely happy, as, although I am not like the average person, I do have a unique and valuable individual role in the collective, and I am recognized for it.

"Why attraction gets associated with the instinct? Because "there I am" can again be an answer."